Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Endless Nightmares]

Support thread is not very supportive...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5824099&postcount=860

1) Can I use the Custom Roster codes on wifi?

2) Is there a maximum number of character slots? for example if I wanted to make extra spots with Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur

3) Are these codes temporary or saved to memory like the My Music Modifier?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5829037&postcount=130

Will the song I choose play for both parties on wifi, or just me?

thanks

 

[MasterRaichu]

Uh... isn't this already in brawl? As for powershielding, one idea presented was to make it so there was a wind effect pushing the attack away during one

It's in Brawl, but not after a "perfect shield". I guess I'm just thinking it should be more like the power shield was in Melee where even if a powerful move clashed with the perfect timing of the power shield, there was still some push on the defender's part, whereas now you can just cancel the shield out completely and attack. Maybe this will be less of a problem if the amount of frames available for a perfect shield is dropped to 1 instead of whatever it is now (4 or 5 i think?)

There is no way we're ever going to be able to bring this back.

That's a real shame... It was a useful tactic in the old games to an extent.

As for the whole l-cancel thing, which has already been debated endlessly... adding lag to characters will be nigh impossible, while an automatic half lag on every aerial in the game would do just as good of a job if not better to better balance the aerials in the game without forcing generally worse characters to have to overcome yet another technical barrier. It wasn't the presence of an l-cancel mechanic that made the past two games competitive. It was simply what made aerials not be split into two groups - usable and unusable.

Yeah, I've been lurking this thread for quite some time and saw all the battles, haha. I agree that it's not the sole reason that Smash is competitive, but I still think's part of the whole. Smash has never had characters that had no need for L-cancels before Brawl (Peach in Melee is debatable with float canceling), so it just sort of leads me to believe that something's wrong there.

Other things we've been talking about include restoring dashdancing to its former glory (aka actually be able to dashdance through the whole of the initial dash animation) and a code that causes normal gravity to be applied to upward vertical momentum, but for a much higher gravity to be applied to downward vertical momentum.

I think the dash dancing would definitely help keep the "Smash" feel. I'd be interested to play with/without the gravity a few times though, just to see how it feels. I don't want to dive back in to that whole arguement about hitstun and comboing in the air, but the air game could be off for a number of reasons. Both gravity and the hitstun/comboing are good things to look at to solve that problem.

BTW, I will definitely try out the updated hitstun code when I have some spare time. I'd love to see it.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

WOW that was scary...I tried the Custom CSS code...I had 40 slots. Everything looked great until I tried to pick my character >_> the slots just started going all frantic and jumping around and disappearing XD

I turned my Wii off/on and then everything was normal again. I can't back up my Brawl info for some reason since the rebooter doesn't work correctly so I was worried lol

 

[Oracle]

SHFFLing will still be here...

If I don't have to press L, then it defeats the purpose of it as an advanced technique.

 

[zxeon]

We need a code to let us execute true short hops and one that lets you fast fall immediately after starting an attack. If those two codes get made it will help to speed the game up a lot.

 

[leafgreen386]

If I don't have to press L, then it defeats the purpose of it as an advanced technique.

It's not an advanced technique. It's a modification in the game. The only reason we call it "auto l-cancel" because it describes it fairly accurately. Would you prefer us to call it the "every aerial has half lag" code instead? Because we can do that. "Halved aerial lag" is exactly what it is, but people seem to identify best with l-canceling, and the topic was brought up in an l-canceling, so that's what we've been calling it.

We need a code to let us execute true short hops and one that lets you fast fall immediately after starting an attack. If those two codes get made it will help to speed the game up a lot.

QFT.

 

[MuBa]

We need a code to let us execute true short hops and one that lets you fast fall immediately after starting an attack. If those two codes get made it will help to speed the game up a lot.

We've got that one covered for ya. Just give it some time and you'll get it.

 

[zxeon]

Btw I love your avatar MuBa it makes me smile every time i see it.

PS. which code is covered?

 

[MuBa]

Btw I love your avatar MuBa it makes me smile every time i see it.

PS. which code is covered?

Lol thanks

You said something about a shorter short hop. Well here's a proposal I made a while ago to how we can work this out. A code can be made to manipulate the following:

1.5x Gravity affects -> First Jump, Fall, and Fast Fall (To combo quicker)

Normal Gravity affects -> 2nd Jump and Recovery (Retain the same recovery, and be able to catch up to your opponent while stunned in the air)

 

[Oracle]

It's not an advanced technique. It's a modification in the game. The only reason we call it "auto l-cancel" because it describes it fairly accurately. Would you prefer us to call it the "every aerial has half lag" code instead? Because we can do that. "Halved aerial lag" is exactly what it is, but people seem to identify best with l-canceling, and the topic was brought up in an l-canceling, so that's what we've been calling it.


QFT.

Why would we just halve lag? The whole purpose is to make the game more technical and advanced. If we halved lag, it wouldn't be advanced at all. L canceling makes the game advanced. It's not for balance, because auto l canceling, as well as regular l canceling, gives everyone the exact same advantag.

 

[kupo15]

Why would we just halve lag? The whole purpose is to make the game more technical and advanced. If we halved lag, it wouldn't be advanced at all. L canceling makes the game advanced. It's not for balance, because auto l canceling, as well as regular l canceling, gives everyone the exact same advantag.

Have you actually been reading what is being written? So you rather have half of the cast's game be technically oriented to win and the other half not technically oriented? Do you understand that by adding l canceling, you will NOT be affecting half the cast which means they won't need any skill in the techniques that manual l canceling brings? Manual l canceling just covers up the problem instead of solving it..
How is this a bull**** response and how is this ok?

 

[Oracle]

Have you actually been reading what is being written? So you rather have half of the cast's game be technically oriented to win and the other half not technically oriented? Do you understand that by adding l canceling, you will NOT be affecting half the cast which means they won't need any skill in the techniques that manual l canceling brings? Manual l canceling just covers up the problem instead of solving it..
How is this a bull**** response and how is this ok?

Fox had nearly no lag on all of his aerials in melee, but he still needs l cancel to benifit. Even MK would benifit from l canceling, it just makes him even faster. SHFFLing is still a lot faster than autocanceling.

 

[kupo15]

Fox had nearly no lag on all of his aerials in melee, but he still needs l cancel to benifit. Even MK would benifit from l canceling, it just makes him even faster. SHFFLing is still a lot faster than autocanceling.

So are you saying that you can SHFFL with manual l canceling but you cant SHFFL with auto l canceling?

The difference between fox and MK is that even those they both were fast, Fox had to l cancel every aerial, mk only has to l cancel two...why??????

Because MK's fair, bair, and Uair already l cancel, as in they are programmed to have the game l cancel, as in an l cancel hack only affects his Nair and Dair. Do you see the difference?

Fox- You had to manually l cancel 5 aerials
MK- You have to manually l cancel 2 aerials

I dont know how else to make this any clearer

 

[MBlaze]

Why would you want to put a feature in a game that so many people oppose? Seriously it's a waste of a code and it's total bullcrap. Just leave it out and perfect the L cancel code and that'll be the end of it. >_>

 

[Mocha19]

You guys should work on dash dancing next for a new hack. That was fun in Melee. =D

 

[Magus420]

Why would you want to put a feature in a game that so many people oppose? Seriously it's a waste of a code and it's total bullcrap. Just leave it out and perfect the L cancel code and that'll be the end of it. >_>

Goes both ways.

 

[leafgreen386]

Why would you want to put a feature in a game that so many people oppose? Seriously it's a waste of a code and it's total bullcrap. Just leave it out and perfect the L cancel code and that'll be the end of it. >_>

Correction: That a small minority of players oppose. The fact of the matter is that more people have shown support for auto l-canceling than manual l-canceling, and that IT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE A DIFFERENCE ON GAMEPLAY. I'd see why you were so upset if this had a dramatic effect on gameplay. Things like gravity will have very heated debates, I'm sure, simply because they have such a dramatic effect on gameplay. On this issue, I really think you need to just concede defeat.

 

[Oracle]

So are you saying that you can SHFFL with manual l canceling but you cant SHFFL with auto l canceling?

The difference between fox and MK is that even those they both were fast, Fox had to l cancel every aerial, mk only has to l cancel two...why??????

Because MK's fair, bair, and Uair already l cancel, as in they are programmed to have the game l cancel, as in an l cancel hack only affects his Nair and Dair. Do you see the difference?

Fox- You had to manually l cancel 5 aerials
MK- You have to manually l cancel 2 aerials

I dont know how else to make this any clearer

Oh, I understand now. Still, it just makes it a little bit easier for some characters to play. Everyone else still relies on l canceling. That's a flawed argument anyways, as it HELPS everyone else and makes the game technical.

 

[MBlaze]

Correction: That a small minority of players oppose. The fact of the matter is that more people have shown support for auto l-canceling than manual l-canceling, and that IT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE A DIFFERENCE ON GAMEPLAY. I'd see why you were so upset if this had a dramatic effect on gameplay. Things like gravity will have very heated debates, I'm sure, simply because they have such a dramatic effect on gameplay. On this issue, I really think you need to just concede defeat.

I think you need to stop being ******** and lazy as hell for pushing a freakin button, seriously competitive people are going to take this game as a joke with stupid crap like that in. We were on the right track before but I don't even think Melee players will touch this now.

 

[kupo15]

Oh, I understand now. Still, it just makes it a little bit easier for some characters to play. Everyone else still relies on l canceling. That's a flawed argument anyways, as it HELPS everyone else and makes the game technical.

Well lets see, characters like samus and peach, ALL of their moves are l canceled so no tech skill for them. Do you seriously think MK can't get by without l canceling two moves? There is a true combo (m2k combo) that uses as fast fall nair which means you get the full lag of that move and this is a true combo without hacks. There are other characters with 4 moves that l cancel.

If you want to improve the competition and competitiveness of the game, you DONT do it by making half of the cast rely on this "technical ability" and the other half to not rely on this.

I think you need to stop being ******** and lazy as hell for pushing a freakin button, seriously competitive people are going to take this game as a joke with stupid crap like that in. We were on the right track before but I don't even think Melee players will touch this now.

lol. I live near m2k, he doesn't feel like l canceling and wavedashing in brawl+....you were saying?

Why would you want to put a feature in a game that so many people oppose? Seriously it's a waste of a code and it's total bullcrap. Just leave it out and perfect the L cancel code and that'll be the end of it. >_>

Are you ok that auto l canceling is in the game without hacks?

 

[Oracle]

Well lets see, characters like samus and peach, ALL of their moves are l canceled so no tech skill for them. Do you seriously think MK can't get by without l canceling two moves? There is a true combo (m2k combo) that uses as fast fall nair which means you get the full lag of that move and this is a true combo without hacks. There are other characters with 4 moves that l cancel.

If you want to improve the competition and competitiveness of the game, you DONT do it by making half of the cast rely on this "technical ability" and the other half to not rely on this.




lol. I live near m2k, he doesn't feel like l canceling or wavedashing in brawl+....you were saying?



Are you ok that auto l canceling is in the game without hacks?

Well, I guess the problem is the auto l cancel. We need to remove that on people like MK, Samus, and peach. Or just make l cancel halve the lag of those moves anyways.
And why are we calling them auto l cancels? You're saying that pressing l with the code on does not halve lag, right?

 

[kupo15]

hmm, how much coding would that take when you have to change 71 moves to not be auto l canceled? Its not worth it, and the game can be more fun without some of that technical stuff. Its more "technical" to adjust to your opponent anyway than press a button that you know when to press it. There seriously is no skill in l canceling if you control when the timing is. If l canceling was designed like teching, thats a different story.

 

[leafgreen386]

angel... you realize how STUPID it would be to spend huge amounts of code tweaking every non-laggy move in the game PLUS include the l-cancel code itself, right? As for "Or just make l cancel halve the lag of those moves anyways." That's... kinda what we're already freaking doing, and it will have little to no effect on those characters.

Also, you keep using the argument "but they'll both have the same effect on the game! manual just keeps the game more technical!" We know. We've been using that same argument to support auto l-canceling the whole time, which quite frankly, supports auto a lot better than manual. We aren't trying to make this game technical for the sake of making it technical. We're trying to increase options and gamespeed, which will naturally increase the competitiveness of the game. We don't want to introduce arbitrary technical barriers that don't serve to enhance the game in any form whatsoever. Furthermore, manual l-canceling doesn't even increase the technicality required for everyone equally, as kupo keeps saying. If you agree that manual vs auto l-cancels will not have any real impact on the game then you have no reason to so strongly oppose auto l-canceling.

As for mario... you keep mentioning melee players not wanting to play without l-canceling in... well, guess what? The biggest names that have come into this thread thus far have all been in support of auto l-canceling. Magus, Aho, and (even though he hasn't actually posted) M2k. Are you seriously going to tell me that auto l-canceling will scare off melee players?

 

[MBlaze]

angel... you realize how STUPID it would be to spend huge amounts of code tweaking every non-laggy move in the game PLUS include the l-cancel code itself, right? As for "Or just make l cancel halve the lag of those moves anyways." That's... kinda what we're already freaking doing, and it will have little to no effect on those characters.

Also, you keep using the argument "but they'll both have the same effect on the game! manual just keeps the game more technical!" We know. We've been using that same argument to support auto l-canceling the whole time, which quite frankly, supports auto a lot better than manual. We aren't trying to make this game technical for the sake of making it technical. We're trying to increase options and gamespeed, which will naturally increase the competitiveness of the game. We don't want to introduce arbitrary technical barriers that don't serve to enhance the game in any form whatsoever. Furthermore, manual l-canceling doesn't even increase the technicality required for everyone equally, as kupo keeps saying. If you agree that manual vs auto l-cancels will not have any real impact on the game then you have no reason to so strongly oppose auto l-canceling.

As for mario... you keep mentioning melee players not wanting to play without l-canceling in... well, guess what? The biggest names that have come into this thread thus far have all been in support of auto l-canceling. Magus, Aho, and (even though he hasn't actually posted) M2k. Are you seriously going to tell me that auto l-canceling will scare off melee players?

Well lets see about that, who does M2k main? Oh that's right, freakin MK, why should it matter to him? He's probably looking for more of a challenge.

Besides it's just stupid in general how all of you can be so lazy and use the excuse of how like maybe 5 characters out of the cast have auto L cancel, big deal. Notice that most of those characters are mid and low teir besides Pit and MK? It's not that much of a big deal.

And Brawl is easy enough, your gonna put in something that halves all the aerial lag so that you don't even have to try to make your combo's come together? And if someone where to screw up on the l cancel they should go unpunished? I just don't see why the hell you guys would go and do something like this, it's like making an even scrubbier smash.

 

[Oracle]

Technicality is one of the best elements of a technical game. Its not like it makes the characters who have auto l cancel already super broken. It just makes the A LITTLE BIT easier to play. Not by much.

Kupo......I kind of stopped reading when you said "more fun"

Basically, L canceling does make the game more competitive in three main ways.

1. Giving slow characters such as Gannon and Ike a better chance at winning
2. Adding more depth and technicality to the game
3. Helping the overall speed of the game.

Taking out 2. would make it not an advanced technique: it would just be less aerial lag. How much different is it if some characters have to l cancel? Is it really that had? It's not like we're forcing you to learn platform canceling.

 

[sagemoon]

Why not make a compromise.
1) make auto l-cancel
2) make an additional code for a manuel l-cancel that cancels lag to 1/4 of the lag (instead of half, so basically half of the already sped up lag time)

It might not be the best idea, i'm not sure if the coding is even possible, but I'm just trying to get a point across that theres more options than manuel l-cancel or auto.

 

[Oracle]

Why not make a compromise.
1) make auto l-cancel
2) make an additional code for a manuel l-cancel that cancels lag to 1/4 of the lag (instead of half, so basically half of the already sped up lag time)

It might not be the best idea, i'm not sure if the coding is even possible, but I'm just trying to get a point across that theres more options than manuel l-cancel or auto.

You're just making it ridiculously easy. 1/4 doesn't make that much of a difference, except with maybe ike or gannon.

Lcancel=advanced tech
Auto l cancel= nothing.

 

[Blackshadow]

Auto l-cancelling can't be punished. Manual l-cancelling can be punished. For the sake of competitiveness in the game, manual l-cancelling wins. It doesn't matter that some characters don't need to l-cancel, because in Melee Samus only had to l-cancel some of her moves, and that hardly changed her position on the tier list.

EDIT:

and the game can be more fun without some of that technical stuff.

And this is exactly why of all people you shouldn't be arguing the inclusion of auto or manual l-cancelling or not. It's clear that you're not thinking along the lines of making the game more competitive, rather you want the game to be more fun for you. I'll take an educated guess and say you probably dislike Melee for the exact reasoning that to be good you needed to l-cancel manually.

 

[leafgreen386]

Technicality is one of the best elements of a technical game. Its not like it makes the characters who have auto l cancel already super broken. It just makes the A LITTLE BIT easier to play. Not by much.

TECHNICAL GAMES ARE TECHNICAL? REALLY? No one ever said we were trying to make brawl more technical. I don't know where you got the idea that was the goal of the project. We could make it so that you have to rotate the control stick in a circle every time before you use an A or B move to make it more technical if we wanted to, but it won't actually change how the game is played. We're trying to improve brawl's gameplay. Not to make it ultra technical. If we wanted to accomplish the latter, we wouldn't even be bothering with all the rest of this. We'd just have made extra button activators to perform commands, but that wouldn't improve brawl's gameplay, no matter how many extra technical barriers you threw in there. Depth comes in the form of more options in any given situation. The best players will excel in a game with many options, while lesser players will get decimated. The reason brawl is so "noob friendly" right now is because there are too few options in any given situation, meaning nubs will still be able to pick the right option more often than not. Introduce more options and faster gameplay, and all of a sudden, those same nubs aren't doing so well, even though the game hasn't become that much more technical.

Kupo......I kind of stopped reading when you said "more fun"

Basically, L canceling does make the game more competitive in three main ways.

1. Giving slow characters such as Gannon and Ike a better chance at winning
2. Adding more depth and technicality to the game
3. Helping the overall speed of the game.

Taking out 2. would make it not an advanced technique: it would just be less aerial lag. How much different is it if some characters have to l cancel? Is it really that had? It's not like we're forcing you to learn platform canceling.

No one said we were making it an advanced technique. No one said we were even making it a technique. It will just be a feature - a change in the gameplay. The same that the hitstun change is. You don't need to press any extra buttons to get the increased hitstun. It just happens. It's a change in the overall physics of the game. Unless you think we should also have to press shield every time we hit a foe, too, in order for the new hitstun affects to be applied? It's just silly. The only reason you want manual so badly is because you're used to it. If you played melee competitively, then you should know that although l-canceling was important, the concept of a "missed l-cancel" was insignificant, and the real reason the game was so good was because of the game speed and options granted during combat - not because of some random technical element that ultimately has no bearing on the way the game is played. You don't even think about l-canceling when you're playing melee. You just do it. It will be the same way in brawl+. Which leads me into my next paragraph.

You add depth by increasing options. L-canceling does not add options. Or rather, having to press a button to l-cancel over not having to press a button does not add options. Whether you have to press a button for it or not, the same options will be open to players. A player will never have to make a choice whether to l-cancel or not. They will always do it and will succeed 99% of the time. They will never not try to attempt it, since failing results in the same thing as not having attempted it at all. It is always the best option 100% of the time in 100% of situations.

And another thing... l-canceling is not hard. I think most people who are opposed to manual l-canceling in brawl (including myself) were highly consistent at it in melee. Note magus, aho, and m2k all supporting auto l-canceling. It isn't that it's a difficult thing to do. It's just that it's pointless and bad game design. Every aerial should have been designed with half lag to begin with.

And not to mention that making it easier can even be a good thing. Brawl+ isn't particularly big at this point. We want people to see the effects immediately, rather than for them to have to learn an awkward timing before they can experience the full brawl+. Contrary to what marioblaze says, introducing an arbitrary technical barrier on something like this will only serve to drive away people from playing brawl+, especially the brawlers. Most melee players will not care either way, although I think most would actually appreciate auto more.

Auto l-cancelling can't be punished. Manual l-cancelling can be punished. For the sake of competitiveness in the game, manual l-cancelling wins. It doesn't matter that some characters don't need to l-cancel, because in Melee Samus only had to l-cancel some of her moves, and that hardly changed her position on the tier list.

WRONG. Either manual l-canceling or auto l-canceling can be punished. If you try to fling out aerials wildly you WILL get hit out of them. Now, s-canceling on the other hand, is nigh unpunishable. But that is why we're not using it, isn't it? Manual l-canceling really isn't that much more punishable than auto. People are going to be missing l-cancels less than 1% of the time, and the times they will actually be able to be punished for making that mistake will be even less. Ultimately, they both yield the same result. One just requires you to press a button to get that result.

And this is exactly why of all people you shouldn't be arguing the inclusion of auto or manual l-cancelling or not. It's clear that you're not thinking along the lines of making the game more competitive, rather you want the game to be more fun for you. I'll take an educated guess and say you probably dislike Melee for the exact reasoning that to be good you needed to l-cancel manually.

Shut. The. FRICK. Up.

That's a BS claim if I've ever seen one. I agree with kupo's statement, and I was a fairly technical fox in melee. Yes, I support the auto l-cancel and I loved melee, and enjoyed being technical. I also know that kupo liked melee a considerable amount, himself, from earlier posts. However, having to perform an extra button press for no reason whatsoever is just tedious and pointless. It has nothing to do with it being hard (which it isn't!). It has to do with it being pointless in the ultimate scheme of things.

 

[Blackshadow]

WRONG. Either manual l-canceling or auto l-canceling can be punished. If you try to fling out aerials wildly you WILL get hit out of them. Now, s-canceling on the other hand, is nigh unpunishable. But that is why we're not using it, isn't it? Manual l-canceling really isn't that much more punishable than auto. People are going to be missing l-cancels less than 1% of the time, and the times they will actually be able to be punished for making that mistake will be even less. Ultimately, they both yield the same result. One just requires you to press a button to get that result.

That's the crux of auto l cancelling's argument? Christ. It's fairly obvious if you throw out aerials randomly you WILL get punished. That's an aspect of the player's mental game, NOT the technical game. What we're talking about here is the technical side of player punishment, and on the technical side of things auto l-cancelling is completely risk free with all reward. Manual l-cancelling DOES, however, have a risk, albiet once mastered, a small one. And it's that small one that when pros play each other they take advantage of to take a stock. I figure neither of you have heard of risk/reward if what I just said sounds new to you two.

Shut. The. FRICK. Up.

That's a BS claim if I've ever seen one. I agree with kupo's statement, and I was a fairly technical fox in melee. Yes, I support the auto l-cancel and I loved melee, and enjoyed being technical. I also know that kupo liked melee a considerable amount, himself, from earlier posts. However, having to perform an extra button press for no reason whatsoever is just tedious and pointless. It has nothing to do with it being hard. It has to do with it being pointless in the ultimate scheme of things.

Then I doubt either of you ever played any reputable players, otherwise you'd be able to see that what you just said is ridiculously stupid. No reason for that extra button press? It's called the risk of punishment. I already went over this earlier, so look back if you need a refresher, but all this has shown is that we have some very un-informed people determining the future of competitive Brawl+.

*high fives 1 winged angel*

 

[Oracle]

TECHNICAL GAMES ARE TECHNICAL? REALLY?

My bad, I meant competitive

No one ever said we were trying to make brawl more technical. I don't know where you got the idea that was the goal of the project. We could make it so that you have to rotate the control stick in a circle every time before you use an A or B move to make it more technical if we wanted to, but it won't actually change how the game is played. We're trying to improve brawl's gameplay. Not to make it ultra technical. If we wanted to accomplish the latter, we wouldn't even be bothering with all the rest of this. We'd just have made extra button activators to perform commands, but that wouldn't improve brawl's gameplay, no matter how many extra technical barriers you threw in there. Depth comes in the form of more options in any given situation. The best players will excel in a game with many options, while lesser players will get decimated. The reason brawl is so "noob friendly" right now is because there are too few options in any given situation, meaning nubs will still be able to pick the right option more often than not. Introduce more options and faster gameplay, and all of a sudden, those same nubs aren't doing so well, even though the game hasn't become that much more technical.

The goal of the project is to make brawl more competitive. Auto l canceling is not competitive at all. It just changes it. Not for the better

No one said we were making it an advanced technique. No one said we were even making it a technique. It will just be a feature - a change in the gameplay. The same that the hitstun change is. You don't need to press any extra buttons to get the increased hitstun. It just happens. It's a change in the overall physics of the game. Unless you think we should also have to press shield every time we hit a foe, too, in order for the new hitstun affects to be applied? It's just silly. The only reason you want manual so badly is because you're used to it. If you played melee competitively, then you should know that although l-canceling was important, the concept of a "missed l-cancel" was insignificant, and the real reason the game was so good was because of the game speed and options granted during combat - not because of some random technical element that ultimately has no bearing on the way the game is played. You don't even think about l-canceling when you're playing melee. You just do it. It will be the same way in brawl+. Which leads me into my next paragraph.

First of all, the point is to make an advanced technique to change the gameplay to be more competitive. No matter how significant the concept of a missed l cancel is to a top player, it still makes the game more competitive by making an actual learning curve.

You add depth by increasing options. L-canceling does not add options. Or rather, having to press a button to l-cancel over not having to press a button does not add options. Whether you have to press a button for it or not, the same options will be open to players. A player will never have to make a choice whether to l-cancel or not. They will always do it and will succeed 99% of the time. They will never not try to attempt it, since failing results in the same thing as not having attempted it at all. It is always the best option 100% of the time in 100% of situations.

So from an options standpoint, they are the same. But auto l canceling is less competitive than l canceling.

And another thing... l-canceling is not hard. I think most people who are opposed to manual l-canceling in brawl (including myself) were highly consistent at it in melee. Note magus, aho, and m2k all supporting auto l-canceling. It isn't that it's a difficult thing to do. It's just that it's pointless and bad game design. Every aerial should have been designed with half lag to begin with.

No one said it's hard. Which is why i don't understand why so many people are against having it.

And not to mention that making it easier can even be a good thing. Brawl+ isn't particularly big at this point. We want people to see the effects immediately, rather than for them to have to learn an awkward timing before they can experience the full brawl+. Contrary to what marioblaze says, introducing an arbitrary technical barrier on something like this will only serve to drive away people from playing brawl+, especially the brawlers. Most melee players will not care either way, although I think most would actually appreciate auto more.

No. If they can't grow up and play a more competitive game, the don't have to. Sakurai's goal was to attract lots of people. Which has already been achieved. At this point, it's down to convincing them that brawl alone is uncompetitive, which we're not going to do simply by saying "the lag is halved"

WRONG. Either manual l-canceling or auto l-canceling can be punished. If you try to fling out aerials wildly you WILL get hit out of them. Now, s-canceling on the other hand, is nigh unpunishable. But that is why we're not using it, isn't it? Manual l-canceling really isn't that much more punishable than auto. People are going to be missing l-cancels less than 1% of the time, and the times they will actually be able to be punished for making that mistake will be even less. Ultimately, they both yield the same result. One just requires you to press a button to get that result.

So why not make them press the button? The only difference is that you make the game more competitive.

Shut. The. FRICK. Up.

That's a BS claim if I've ever seen one. I agree with kupo's statement, and I was a fairly technical fox in melee. Yes, I support the auto l-cancel and I loved melee, and enjoyed being technical. I also know that kupo liked melee a considerable amount, himself, from earlier posts. However, having to perform an extra button press for no reason whatsoever is just tedious and pointless. It has nothing to do with it being hard (which it isn't!). It has to do with it being pointless in the ultimate scheme of things.

Really? Tedious and pointless? It makes it competitive.

*high fives blackshadow*

 

[leafgreen386]

That's the crux of auto l cancelling's argument? Christ. It's fairly obvious if you throw out aerials randomly you WILL get punished. That's an aspect of the player's mental game, NOT the technical game. What we're talking about here is the technical side of player punishment, and on the technical side of things auto l-cancelling is completely risk free with all reward. Manual l-cancelling DOES, however, have a risk, albiet once mastered, a small one. And it's that small one that when pros play each other they take advantage of to take a stock. I figure neither of you have heard of risk/reward if what I just said sounds new to you two.

I'm quite familiar with risk/reward, tyvm. The risk of missing is so minimal in this case that it is insignificant. A player does not have to weigh in "but what if I miss the l-cancel?" when deciding what to do. They just do it and carry it out. In the event they mess up and get punished for it, then yes, they will probably die. But this happens rarely enough that no one who has been playing this game for any length of time even considers missing the l-cancel when going for their approach or combos. It happens sometimes, sure. But no one is ever actively thinking about l-canceling during a match. It is just a muscle reflex.

Also, top players rarely take advantage of technical mistakes, due to the small number of technical mistakes top players actually make. The majority of "mistakes" made in high level play are falling for the opponent's mindgames. This is what players are looking for to take advantage of in high level play. If the other player just so happens to make a technical mistake, then yes, they will jump on it, but it's not something they're counting on.

Then I doubt either of you ever played any reputable players, otherwise you'd be able to see that what you just said is ridiculously stupid. No reason for that extra button press? It's called the risk of punishment. I already went over this earlier, so look back if you need a refresher, but all this has shown is that we have some very un-informed people determining the future of competitive Brawl+.

When I'm concentrating on the game, I typically go even with dark sonic. If you don't know him, I believe he got 9th at the kansas tournament not too long ago. I would give my own rank there, but unfortunately I cannot travel.

Either way, as I said before, the risk of missing an l-cancel is so minute, that it will never be in the minds of players while considering what option to take.

The goal of the project is to make brawl more competitive. Auto l canceling is not competitive at all. It just changes it. Not for the better

Then why are we even including something to reduce the lag at all? Why not just leave lag the way it is? If we didn't think that halving lag could help the game we wouldn't be talking about it at all. It allows certain moves to be usable, it increases combo potential of characters, and most importantly it in general takes away from brawl's defensiveness, by allowing players to make safer (although not unpunishable) approaches.

First of all, the point is to make an advanced technique to change the gameplay to be more competitive. No matter how significant the concept of a missed l cancel is to a top player, it still makes the game more competitive by making an actual learning curve.

No. It is not. The point is to make the game deeper. Manual l-canceling does not add depth. The only way manual l-canceling will add depth is if there was some kind of reward for NOT l-canceling. If the player needed to make some kind of choice between whether to l-cancel or not l-cancel, and there were advantages and disadvantages to both, then yes, I would be all for a manual l-cancel. Right now, though, there is never a case where you would want to NOT l-cancel.

So from an options standpoint, they are the same. But auto l canceling is less competitive than l canceling.

No one said it's hard. Which is why i don't understand why so many people are against having it.

So why not make them press the button? The only difference is that you make the game more competitive.

Really? Tedious and pointless? It makes it competitive.

See above. In actual gameplay, manual l-canceling has little to no effect on how the game progresses. Adding manual l-canceling instead of auto l-canceling is like taking an olympic-sized swimming pool and pouring a glass of water into it, and then saying you "increased the water's depth." That's about the magnitude of effect that making l-canceling manual will have. As opposed to the introduction of l-canceling, itself, which adds a few thousand gallons.

No. If they can't grow up and play a more competitive game, the don't have to. Sakurai's goal was to attract lots of people. Which has already been achieved. At this point, it's down to convincing them that brawl alone is uncompetitive, which we're not going to do simply by saying "the lag is halved"

Correct. We're going to say "The lag is halved. Now figure out what you can do with it."

 

[Blackshadow]

I'm quite familiar with risk/reward, tyvm. The risk of missing is so minimal in this case that it is insignificant. A player does not have to weigh in "but what if I miss the l-cancel?" when deciding what to do. They just do it and carry it out. In the event they mess up and get punished for it, then yes, they will probably die. But this happens rarely enough that no one who has been playing this game for any length of time even considers missing the l-cancel when going for their approach or combos. It happens sometimes, sure. But no one is ever actively thinking about l-canceling during a match. It is just a muscle reflex.

But the risk is still there. The risk, no matter the fact it is small, exists. That's enough for it to rise above auto l-cancelling as to what should be implemented into Brawl+. As I said earlier, this is about the technical side of the game, NOT the mindgames aspect. And as such, there is a chance of your finger slipping and missing an l-cancel with manual l-cancelling, and as such it is superior to auto l-cancelling, which it is impossible for a finger to slip since it's automatic. That in itself is reason enough for manual l-cancelling to be implemented over auto.

Also top players rarely take advantage of technical mistakes, due to the small number of technical mistakes top players actually make.

Wrong. They may not make many technical mistakes, but when they do, they're almost always taken advantage of.

The majority of "mistakes" made in high level play are falling for the opponent's mindgames. This is what players are looking for to take advantage of in high level play. If the other player just so happens to make a technical mistake, then yes, they will jump on it, but it's not something they're counting on.

Once again, keep to the technical aspect of things. Yes, it's mostly mindgames that pros fall victim to, but that's irrelevant to the argument. Keep it technical.

Either way, as I said before, the risk of missing an l-cancel is so minute, that it will never be in the minds of players while considering what option to take.

Once again, keep it technical. It's not whether the players are actually thinking about whether to l-cancel or not, it's about the player's confidence in their technical ability. And that's why even the best players in the world can start to screw up l-cancels when put under extreme pressure. It's this that which makes manual l-cancelling important, since when put under pressure it's possible to start screwing up l-cancels more than normal. With auto l-cancelling, there's no possibility of that. Hence, another reason why manual l-cancelling is more beneficial to the game than auto.

Manual: 3
Auto: 0

 

[leafgreen386]

But the risk is still there. The risk, no matter the fact it is small, exists. That's enough for it to rise above auto l-cancelling as to what should be implemented into Brawl+. As I said earlier, this is about the technical side of the game, NOT the mindgames aspect. And as such, there is a chance of your finger slipping and missing an l-cancel with manual l-cancelling, and as such it is superior to auto l-cancelling, which it is impossible for a finger to slip since it's automatic. That in itself is reason enough for manual l-cancelling to be implemented over auto.

Could you do this argument a favor and read the rest of my post, now? I mean the part where I addressed 1 w1inged @ngel. It would be good if you actually addressed those points, considering right now you're focusing ENTIRELY on one aspect of the l-canceling argument, and that addresses it as a whole.

Wrong. They may not make many technical mistakes, but when they do, they're almost always taken advantage of.

I meant that they punish relatively few technical mistakes compared to mindgame oriented mistakes, and that is because top players make very few technical errors. I was not implying that they don't punish technical mistakes when they happen.

Once again, keep to the technical aspect of things. Yes, it's mostly mindgames that pros fall victim to, but that's irrelevant to the argument. Keep it technical.

Hm... no. Obviously, when looking solely on technicality, manual l-cancel is the superior choice. However, that fails to look at the whole picture. We're looking at the depth this adds to the game as a whole. Not at one specific technical aspect. You're trying to force this argument on one track, which ignores every reason for auto l-canceling.

Once again, keep it technical. It's not whether the players are actually thinking about whether to l-cancel or not, it's about the player's confidence in their technical ability. And that's why even the best players in the world can start to screw up l-cancels when put under extreme pressure. It's this that which makes manual l-cancelling important, since when put under pressure it's possible to start screwing up l-cancels more than normal. With auto l-cancelling, there's no possibility of that. Hence, another reason why manual l-cancelling is more beneficial to the game than auto.

Manual: 3
Auto: 0

Hey, something that ISN'T designed to just shove off points! I will concede that players are more likely to miss l-cancels when under pressure. But if they've trained that reflex well enough, then it is not an issue. And the fact of the matter is that l-canceling is just a reflex. It isn't an actual skill that one has to learn how to apply. You do an aerial, so you l-cancel as you hit the ground. That's all there is to it. Typically, the point of tech skill is to allow access to techniques that then must be learned how to be applied. The application of l-canceling is so simple that even a monkey could understand it. Just because you could double fair with marth in melee didn't mean you could use it well. You had to learn how to apply it in a match.

edit: And I figured I'd mention that if I don't respond to your next post (or the one after that, if I'm still online to respond to your next), it isn't because I concede defeat. It's because I just plain won't be at a computer to answer it. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow, and won't be back for a week. I may or may not have internet access in that time.

 

[peachfvl]

go manual!!!!!!!
lol

 

[MuBa]

If Brawl+ ever wants to be a competitive success in the future, then we need L-Canceling. Even if it's a button press, it shows that making combos take skill, it's simple as that.

The game will still be fluid regardless b/c of the changes we're making, but that fluidity should come with a cost of perfect execution (even if it's simple as a button press).

Combos should be skillful, not something easy to do. Greenleaf and Kupo, I understand your side of the argument that pressing a button won't do much of a difference and it seems pointless, but in all honestly, it does make a HUGE difference, especially when you are trying to pressing a button at the right time.

Don't worry, we're all ready to press a button million times more using Ganon and Ike than characters like MK and Samus.

 

[zxeon]

Give it up, auto L-canceling is never going to be seen favorably. Just stick to what we know works. All your arguements try to make the point that L-canceling doesn't take skill and there is no reason not to L-cancel just fail to prove how auto-L-canceling remedies the situation. Isn't this the same as brawl on steroids since it's just given to you by default with zero effort on your part?

 

[kupo15]

Well lets see about that, who does M2k main? Oh that's right, freakin MK, why should it matter to him? He's probably looking for more of a challenge.

So let me get this straight, your talking about the best melee player in the world right there and your discrediting his opinions like they are nothing by saying he plays...MK!????? Don't forget he did play DDD before which could use lag canceling. You might as well say he is a melee hater and technical hater also with that logic since he doesn't like l canceling in brawl....

How do you know what m2k wants? Have you played with him in person like I have? Have you talked with ppl who play with him like I have? If you answered no then stop making up crap like you know what m2k wants and expect us to believe your right when you don't.

Besides it's just stupid in general how all of you can be so lazy and use the excuse of how like maybe 5 characters out of the cast have auto L cancel, big deal. Notice that most of those characters are mid and low teir besides Pit and MK? It's not that much of a big deal.

Do some research before making BS claims. Only 5 characters is one of the funniest things I have read all night. I even provided you with the source of this auto l canceling....you should maybe read it!

And Brawl is easy enough, your gonna put in something that halves all the aerial lag so that you don't even have to try to make your combo's come together? And if someone where to screw up on the l cancel they should go unpunished? I just don't see why the hell you guys would go and do something like this, it's like making an even scrubbier smash.

That is where DI comes in. It takes more skill to be able to continue comboing because your adjusting to your opponents DI over pressing a button that your in control of. Like, you can l cancel with your eyes closed. Some "skill"

Technicality is one of the best elements of a technical game. Its not like it makes the characters who have auto l cancel already super broken. It just makes the A LITTLE BIT easier to play. Not by much.

(Bolded) No **** sherlock

Well lets see here. If characters can chose not to l cancel and still compete and some characters have to l cancel to compete, I would say that the characters who can chose not to l cancel have it easier and the game is built more in their advantage..I never said those characters will be broken. Stop making every argument we have into a strawman

Kupo......I kind of stopped reading when you said "more fun"

Lol. its funny how you twist words so much to favor yourself. Does l canceling make the game "more fun?" Is it "more fun" to play competitively or casually? Be careful, you better not dare answer this incorrectly because I will stop reading what you write if utter the words, "more fun"

Basically, L canceling does make the game more competitive in three main ways.

1. Giving slow characters such as Gannon and Ike a better chance at winning
2. Adding more depth and technicality to the game
3. Helping the overall speed of the game.

You know, auto l canceling also gives ppl like ganon and ike a better chance to compete also. How does manual l cancel give ike and ganon a better chance at winning over auto l cancel?
And half lag itself makes the speed of the game faster which means auto l canceling makes the game faster also.

Your confusing yourself with what "l canceling" is and what "lag canceling" is. Your trying to prove your "l canceling' arguments with "lag canceling" points. it doesn't work...

Auto l-cancelling can't be punished. Manual l-cancelling can be punished. For the sake of competitiveness in the game, manual l-cancelling wins. It doesn't matter that some characters don't need to l-cancel, because in Melee Samus only had to l-cancel some of her moves, and that hardly changed her position on the tier list.

Well good for samus. Im sure she is happy now that all of her moves are auto l canceled. You know what, I can pick pit and auto cancel every aerial like samus does in melee. So are you saying that its ok that Pit has to auto cancel every move to have no lag, manually l cancel everything to half lag in order to use the aerials effectively at those times where auto canceling doesnt work, but samus can just waltz her way to using all of her moves at anytime because all of her moves l cancel?

EDIT:

And this is exactly why of all people you shouldn't be arguing the inclusion of auto or manual l-cancelling or not. It's clear that you're not thinking along the lines of making the game more competitive, rather you want the game to be more fun for you. I'll take an educated guess and say you probably dislike Melee for the exact reasoning that to be good you needed to l-cancel manually.

Lol. its funny how you twist words so much to favor yourself. Does l canceling make the game "more fun?" Is it "more fun" to play competitively or casually? Be careful, you better not dare answer this incorrectly because I will stop reading what you write if utter the words, "more fun" (yes this a direct copy from the other idiots post)

And how do you figure that I disliked melee? I enjoy melee for its technicality. Brawl on the other hand is not as technical and it can be just as competitive without this form of " tech skill." Are you saying that the core of brawl's competitiveness relies on manual l canceling? That if brawl has manual l canceling its competitive, but with auto l canceling, its not?

Its cool that you are going for personal attacks and blatant ignorance to help your argument.
And you call yourself a smash debater.....

So why not make them press the button? The only difference is that you make the game more competitive.

No your wrong. Are you saying that this one button press separates players even at the top end of competitive play? The ability to DI effectively out of combos is something that separates the top players more than a simple l cancel.

Please you anti auto l canceling ppl, answer this:
Are you ok that auto l canceling already exists?

EDIT:

Give it up, auto L-canceling is never going to be seen favorably. Just stick to what we know works. All your arguements try to make the point that L-canceling doesn't take skill and there is no reason not to L-cancel just fail to prove how auto-L-canceling remedies the situation. Isn't this the same as brawl on steroids since it's just given to you by default with zero effort on your part?

This is the type of response I would expect to see from a losing side of the argument.

(first bolded) Well lets see, m2k as well as several other top melee players are in favor of auto l canceling. In fact, making broad statements like this is the most idiot thing I has ever read. yea, because noone will favor auto l canceling..

(underline) Ok. Lag canceling works whether its manual or auto.

(second bold) It remedies the situation because it gives those without the luxury of auto l canceled moves auto l canceled moves whereas the characters with auto l canceled moves still have the adv of having auto l canceled moves even with manual l canceling.

If Brawl+ ever wants to be a competitive success in the future, then we need L-Canceling. Even if it's a button press, it shows that making combos take skill, it's simple as that.

The game will still be fluid regardless b/c of the changes we're making, but that fluidity should come with a cost of perfect execution (even if it's simple as a button press).

Combos should be skillful, not something easy to do. Greenleaf and Kupo, I understand your side of the argument that pressing a button won't do much of a difference and it seems pointless, but in all honestly, it does make a HUGE difference, especially when you are trying to pressing a button at the right time.

Don't worry, we're all ready to press a button million times more using Ganon and Ike than characters like MK and Samus.

No. Good DI is what makes comboing hard. And I think you fail to see my point if you are ok with characters having auto l canceling.

 

[zxeon]

Don't try to speak for other people kupo it makes you look like an idiot. Instead tell them to join the arguement themselves. Some characters are just better than others at some stuff get over it. These are the only points I'm going to dignify with a response.

 

[kupo15]

Ok. Then tell your supporters to do the same.

I recognize characters are better than others. With that logic, you are saying that the characters in melee and 64 were equal because they all had to l cancel equally, but in brawl some characters are better than others because some dont have to l cancel....

Please answer the parts of my posts that was directed at you. You have been avoiding it for too long

EDIT: why did ppl ignore this post? http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5848053&postcount=1281
Was it ignored because it told the truth and ppl were afraid to see it?