Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[M15t3R E]

=]

I /finally/ got the codes to work perfectly. Idk if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone wanna wifi me with the codes Wavedash, L cancel, Histun and no tripping on?O:

As far as I know, the codes won't work on wifi. Sorry.

Hey Kupo, how's the hitstun fixes coming along? Any news from PW?

 

[cultofrubik]

As far as I know, the codes won't work on wifi. Sorry.

Hey Kupo, how's the hitstun fixes coming along? Any news from PW?

Fortunately, you are mistaken.

leafgreen386 and I found out that the only current code posted on the first page that does not work on Wi-fi is the Melee Air Dodge.

Hitstun, S-canceling, Increased gravity, and [of course] No Tripping all work.

 

[Blad01]

As far as I know, the codes won't work on wifi. Sorry.

They work if your opponent has the same codes.

 

[M15t3R E]

Well this is certainly news to me. I thought I heard at one point that the codes often cause crashes in wifi.

 

[cultofrubik]

Yeah, only the Melee Air Dodge is the issue.

 

[kupo15]

Hey Kupo, how's the hitstun fixes coming along? Any news from PW?

Nothing right now. I checked the hackers forum and he hasnt even told us that he knows of the twirl hit stun bug or about our request to increase the stun time. I hope he is working on it. I may have to PM him but I want to wait as to not bug him if he is already aware of it. So I really have no clue

 

[M15t3R E]

I hope he gets crackin' on it.
I kinda feel bad that we're putting so much pressure on one guy- PW.

 

[Eten]

We need enough stun so that throws can be effective. Atm, you cant follow up throws unless your character is special. Everyone should be able to follow up after their throw.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I don't know why we should have to evolve the game to turn throws into combo starters. Remember, their is like less than half of the shield stun in this game than their was in melee and landing shield grabs is really easy. Grabs are a safe damage building option with the bonus of giving you map control because you can decide which way to toss your foe already.

 

[cultofrubik]

I think Kupo is saying that some characters just plain **** with their throws. If all could, then throws would obviously be an excellent combo method. It's not to say he's right or anything, but for some characters that can get that grab off but have no decent throw, it makes it harder to rack up that damage because that other player gets a chance to recover from the grab and consequently seek a grab of his or her own. If that opponent is a "special" character as kupo said, they get to take quite an advantage out of it.

As you said, grabs are easier. But when a few players can 60% off of one while you can only rack up 10%... who do you think is going to win? If everyone had the opportunity to, then hey, a bit more balance.

 

[Eten]

What's wrong with one character having more of an advantage out of throws than another? Some characters have longer/faster grab ranges for an advantage too. It's not a good idea to think that you're going to be designing more "balance" this way.

 

[M15t3R E]

I don't think we need to worry about buffing everyone's throws.
Increasing the level of hitstun is a big deal. I'd say it's a terrible idea to raise hitstun with the strong hopes of making throws extremely useful for every character.
Raise hitstun, but don't have "must increase the effectiveness of throws" on the forefront of your mind while doing so.

 

[Yeroc]

I agree. All characters having equal damage potential off throws? With grabs (and some actual throws already as well) already being as super-broken as they are, seriously: If game balancing were that simple Brawl wouldn't have the issues that it does.

Edit: Actually, we ought to be applying Mister_E's logic to every code we instate: We ought to not be trying to achieve a desired effect (making something "like Melee" etc.) but thinking up ways that stuff can just be made better. Before anyone tries to say Wavedashing is contrary to that logic, I'll say that although Melee was the inspiration for the design, using the coding the way it works now still changes Brawl in its own unique ways.

 

[kupo15]

Why not? Both smash games had throws as combo starters. Its not the only way to start combos but it was a big part of the game. You saw everyone in 64 spamming grab and missing and grabbing in melee turned into CGing. With brawls physics, your not going to see CGing (aside from the ones we have) and you wont see the devastating combos of 64 due to excellent DI.

Why cant we try it? We are here to experiment. If PW can somehow manage to allow us to toy with the degrees of stun on our own, that would be excellent.

Increasing stun time will NOT affect DDD's CG or Falco's CG im pretty sure because they dont put you in the tumble. Im not asking for a lot, just a little more so we can chain together moves. The hitstun atm does very little for comboing.

And who is to say that we wont be adding a shield stun hack? It could happen...think long term.
(And just so you know where Im coming from, Im thinking about this from a non wavedash perspective)

 

[Cemetery]

For the gravity modder, can someone give me the appropriate Melee gravity? I cannot seem to get it right at all. I suck at coding, I can do VERY LITTLE.

 

[MuBa]

For the gravity modder, can someone give me the appropriate Melee gravity? I cannot seem to get it right at all. I suck at coding, I can do VERY LITTLE.

I'd say just use Heavy Brawl.

 

[Kyd]

Heavy Brawl does not simulate Melee gravity at all, it just makes u fall a little faster and completely gimps Sonic, but the floatiness of Brawl is still there.

 

[choknater]

lol @ calling this thread "competitive" hacks

 

[Yeroc]

"Competitive" doesn't necessarily mean "SBR sanctioned." Look at Keits and his items-on followers at SRK.

Kupo, I'm one of those people that's of the opinion that while hacks are proving useful for changing the landscape, fewer hacks will probably be better in the long run than more hacks. In my eyes you (and you specifically) seem to be trying to turn this game into a clone of Melee and/or SSB. Not necessary IMO, or perhaps even possible.

 

[Wind Owl]

lol @ calling this thread "competitive" hacks

lol @ not recognizing the need for a disctinction between these codes and "for fun" codes like super characters

 

[M15t3R E]

The point of these hacks is to put more competitiveness into Brawl.
Sakurai and his team purposely dulled down the competitive nature of their games for the third installment of the SSB franchise. We feel that was a dire mistake on their part because they didn't cater to their competition-loving fans. We're trying to correct the mistake. The hacks are for competitiveness.

Yeroc, you tell 'em!
Kupo, don't worry about throws right now. It's not nearly as important as achieving the perfect level of hitstun to allow for many new and exciting (and not broken) combos.

 

[JohnAnon]

Holy ****, this is long.

After much observation, I can say I'm very disappointed in what you people are trying with hacks.

None of you are experimenting. All you're doing right now is focusing on making Brawl as Melee as possible. I'm sure a lot of you prefer Melee's "seriousness," but THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S A GOOD THING.

The current focus should be on BALANCE. But you should not be thinking something like "How can we bring back Captain Falcon's godly combos from Melee?" You should be thinking "How can we improve this character while not deriving from their primary strengths?" For example, Falco's style from Melee and Brawl are very different. In Melee, Falco was all about aerial kills, using the Shine and Uair. But in Brawl, Falco's game is now about spiking, combined with more emphasis on his Blaster and his different, but still useful, Reflector (and god**** chaingrabs). And I doubt you're intending or even thinking of bringing back Falco's devastating Uair from Melee, since his new style works.

If a character's flaws are crippling, fix it. For example, Link is awful in the air due to his short jumps and extremely poor air mobility. So give him better jumps and air speed, just a little. Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost has too much start-up and cooldown for low priority. So make Raptor Boost travel faster and further and not make him trip if he misses. Know what the character is intended to specialize it and improve on that.

Similarly, remove features that negate their flaws. Let's look at Meta Knight here. Meta Knight was intended to be a fast-attacking character that focuses on damage rather than finishers. Unfortunately, his glide attack, Nair, and DSmash are not only fast, but are good finishers. That's why he's so broken. If they were to do a lot less knockback, he wouldn't be borderline banned. Meta Knight's problem is similar to that with Shiek back in Melee, because of her semi-spiking Fair.

On a similar note, the moves should do whatever they were INTENDED to do. Why does Dedede's Utilt faster and do more knockback than his USmash?

Also, TRY TO MAKE EVERY SINGLE MOVE AS USEFUL AS POSSIBLE. Looking back at Meta Knight again, why is Mach Tornado used frequently while Drill Rush is rarely used? That's because with Mach Tornado, you have extreme mobility and less overall lag for just about the same damage. So what do you do? Personally, I'd go with reducing Mach Tornado's movement. But if you'd like, you could just buff Drill Rush to do more damage or something. The point is, no move should be superior to every way that matters than that of "inferior" moves. What move do you never use and why? How can you make that move more useful?

Being less general to fighting games and more specific to Brawl, balance the move's damage, range, and speed. The SSB series (Read: the whole series) was never built to be focused on 1v1s (or balance, even). I mean, look at Snake. Snake's tilts are, in fact, generally overpowered. His Ftilt and Utilt come out in a few frames, and have great knockback and damage. It doesn't even have sweetspots. Seriously, his Utilt shouldn't be killing at 110%.

As for techniques, I have a huge gripe on this. As much as you might hate to admit it, Smash is simple. You don't need to memorize stick movement and button combos, like traditional fighting games. They may share the same basics, but they don't necessarily share the same principles.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say this. Smash's techniques have all been about muscle memory and physics exploits. Smash is different. In traditional fighting games, the game's focus is on fighting mechanics. As for Smash, it's physics. I am not saying Smash isn't as "deep" as other "regular" fighting games. Smash is deep, in the aspect that there's a lot more emphasis on things like knockback and it's unique HP system, and the fact that stage selection matters. But Smash wasn't built to be "serious." It has items and stages with instant kill obsticles. Hell, Sakurai himself even said that Smash has always been intended to be a party game. I'm not saying Smash is incapable to be taken seriously, but most people find Smash different. And the way you behave to those kinds of statements aren't helping.

Back to the matter at hand. The competitive Smash community has a different meaning for "skills." Techniques, which require "skill," are more about muscle memory than mindgames. Let's talk about the most notorious Melee technique: Wavedashing. To wavedash, you need to do a short hop, and right when you take your foot off the ground, you have to air dodge diagonally towards the floor, causing you to skid forward without requiring input. It lets the player input ground attacks while at the same time not being anchored into the ground. In fact, wavedashing permanently changed the face of competitive Melee. In fact, you can say wavedashing "broke" the game. There is a fighting game that similarly implements a technique like this, only the effect is much stronger, it's part of the system, and it was in a gauge. The game in question is Hokuto no Ken, and fighting game experts say the game was "broken" to the point where both players equally had the ability to win a 3/5 match in a single round within 7 seconds.

Back to muscle memory. Truthfully anyone can learn wavedashing with a little practice. Eventually they can practice to the point where it becomes a regular practice. But wavedashing doesn't require much thinking to do. That goes especially with L-canceling. Why wouldn't you not L-cancel at every opportunity? You never have to think of when not to L-cancel. In fact, the same can be said of dashdancing. Whenever you are not attacking, you just have do dashdance. Personally, I think dashdancing is the biggest offender here, mostly because it looks absolutely ridiculous and stupid in practice.

Going back to hacking. So why not create new techniques? Here's a suggestion: Air Canceling. The main idea of an air cancel is to use it to trick the opponent into thinking you're using a high-startup attack, like Ike's Fair. But with air canceling, you can cancel using the attack by jumping at certain frames for certain aerial attacks and then execute something completely different. You could maybe opt to use a spike, or short hop, air cancel, then begin a ground rush, or even save yourself from suiciding.

I just made up something completely new, and look how deep it sounds. So why not create techniques that require actual thinking rather than muscle memory. AND WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PRESS L JUST TO REDUCE AERIAL LAG? CAN'T YOU JUST MAKE IT SO THAT YOU DO IT AUTOMATICALLY?!

You have the potential to create something wholly new! Why not do so?! Forget everything you know about Melee! You should not try to repeat something just because you grew fond of it. If you want to play Melee, then play Melee. Just DON'T WASTE POTENTIAL LIKE THIS. You know what wasted potential? MUGEN. And it's terrible now.

In fact, I'm gonna have to buy myself a USBGecko and learn hacking, just so that this project won't steer itself to utter failure.

 

[M15t3R E]

I'm not gonna bother quoting that...

JohnAnon, you're talking about character balancing. I support that, but we're talking about something quite different. The SBR has been intrigued with the idea of hacking for the sake of balancing certain characters, such as MK, for some time now. There's a thread about it somewhere, started by SamuraiPanda.

Anywho, it's not that simple to put new factors into the game that are not in it or any other game already.
So when you say we have a chance to make something completely new, it's really not as easy as you think.
Adding new factors into the game to make a completely new game apart from Brawl, Melee, and SSB64 would require too much coding and wouldn't likely even be possible.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, don't worry about throws right now. It's not nearly as important as achieving the perfect level of hitstun to allow for many new and exciting (and not broken) combos.

Of course. Don't worry. My point was I thought that the perfect level of hit stun would make it so that throws are more effective. Atm, the level of hitstun we have now only makes those characters with moves that already flow together that barely miss in reg brawl connect and we need more hit stun so that the unfortunate ppl (95% im guessing) have a better chance of making their moves flow together also.

Question about the current hitstun. Is there a difference between the amount of hit stun in 1.1 vs 1.2? I thought someone said PW programmed it for a set amount of stun instead of a variable. Is there any confirmation on this? I have a strange feeling that there is more hit stun in 1.1.

 

[Cemetery]

So, uhh, can anyone help me with the gravity mod?
D:
Enough of the silly arguing, you don't like Brawl+, go play Melee. I play both, so idrc.

 

[maticMan94]

Question about the current hitstun. Is there a difference between the amount of hit stun in 1.1 vs 1.2? I thought someone said PW programmed it for a set amount of stun instead of a variable. Is there any confirmation on this? I have a strange feeling that there is more hit stun in 1.1.

I think there was more in 1.1 from my play tests. I actually liked that one better, except for the glitches. Anyone still have the 1.1 code? I wanted to try it again.

 

[Eten]

Why not? Both smash games had throws as combo starters. Its not the only way to start combos but it was a big part of the game. You saw everyone in 64 spamming grab and missing and grabbing in melee turned into CGing. With brawls physics, your not going to see CGing (aside from the ones we have) and you wont see the devastating combos of 64 due to excellent DI.

Why cant we try it? We are here to experiment. If PW can somehow manage to allow us to toy with the degrees of stun on our own, that would be excellent.

Increasing stun time will NOT affect DDD's CG or Falco's CG im pretty sure because they dont put you in the tumble. Im not asking for a lot, just a little more so we can chain together moves. The hitstun atm does very little for comboing.

And who is to say that we wont be adding a shield stun hack? It could happen...think long term.
(And just so you know where Im coming from, Im thinking about this from a non wavedash perspective)

Why, honestly? Because playing to avoid grabs/setting up grabs actually makes this game rather campy. Shields are super good in Brawl, defensiveness is rewarded because of it. If we had hitstun, that provides more momentum(which is a good thing), it also means when you get punished for playing aggressive you take a beating much more than you do now, and then you would also have the ability as a defensive player to dish out a 30% retaliation or similar from their shield when they do a shield grab. D3 already plays this way and he'll do it just for the 16% backthrow on light characters. Give people a 30% damage combo as Sheik from a shield grab and they'll camp with needles all day until you come over, they shield your aerial and get their 30% damage. (P.S. Melee actually wasn't perfect in this regard, I forget what pro Falco player played like this ALL of the time but he practically consisted of defensive shorthop double laser camping until someone hit him and he'd shine out of shield and what obviously came after that, although that did take one of the highest tier characters and use a whole host of tricks to accomplish, it WAS one of the most broken things in that game, and makes a good case of why you don't want to give people amazing out of shield options in this already campy game because of what it could become)

Furthermore, Brawl+ should really make as few changes as possible to achieve something like "brawl without the lack of awesomeness from the previous games". There aren't many problems with the characters in Brawl, or anything like that, but instead it's the near inability to have ANY momentum in a fight and basic techniques for approaching are gone that causes the matches to drag on and gameplay to become boring. For momentum, it's Brawls problem that you can airdodge/attack out of hitstun so early that there is no way to follow up with a combo, tech chase, or juggle. It's one hit, and you're back to approaching/spacing again. With the whole L-cancel thing, you can play aggressively without exposing yourself for so much time to your opponent.

With those two changes alone(hitstun "fix") and reintroduction of the backwards removal of L-cancelling, it would probably go a long way in making Brawl more fun. Too many changes, and you're not really playing Brawl anymore.

BTW for a shield stun hack I have no idea what the repercussions of that would be when combined with L-cancelling in terms of shield pressure. But I do know that you can probably DOUBLE shield stun in brawl and have it barely near melee values. Even if it was melee values it still wouldn't stop shield grabs though so I still don't support messing with throws. It would probably go a decent way with shield drop retaliations though.(Reason for brawl campiness #5812- Any character can simply regular shield a hit, let go of their shield afterwards, and because of the lack of shield stun and how fast shields drop still have time for most of their moves to punish the ending lag of way too many impossible-to-L-cancel aerials or normal attacks. This is in contrast to having to rely on more limited range/effectiveness directly out of shield options and shield grabs)

 

[kupo15]

I think there was more in 1.1 from my play tests. I actually liked that one better, except for the glitches. Anyone still have the 1.1 code? I wanted to try it again.

Hitstun: 1.1[Phantom Wings]

80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
82210005 00001848
82210006 0000184C
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
32000000 0000001C
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 0000007C
92210004 00000014
58010000 0000007C
58010000 0000002C
92210003 00000004
4A001002 00000000
30000038 00000044
66000001 00000000
30000039 00000045
4A001004 00000000
36000040 42700000
4A001003 000000E4
60000005 00000000
10000000 00000001
10000004 00000000
4A100000 00000014
62000000 00000000
E2000003 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
84210005 00001848
84210006 0000184C
62000000 00000000
C27816DC 00000004
8963FFFC 2C0B0001
40820008 48000008
98030000 39600000
9963FFFC 00000000
E0000000 80008000

 

[maticMan94]

^^^^
wow that was fast thanks!

 

[cultofrubik]

I don't see how creating an array of new techniques is good for anything other than literal fun.

No, I was not saying that we actually need to make all grabs ridiculous. kupo and I differ on that. Trust me, I like my current character's superiority.

Okay, lets all chat. This is by no means supposed to be an oligarchy. Please, continue to give input and ideas. It helps to guide our way.

But do not critique if you do not have productive information. To be "disappointed" and not say anything until just now seems a bit contradictory. If you have the right to vote, use it. If you have the ability to press "reply," use it. Thank you for giving your wall of text. It is appreciated.

We can only think of what we are able to think. If you have an idea, post it! The thread is meant for open, constructive discussion. :D

Because the internet is limiting, I'll say my views. I'm very close to apathetic to new ideas because I'm already satisfied with most of Brawl+. That's with No Tripping, S-Canceling, moar hitstun, and moar gravity. Anything else is just gravy. I'm basically at a point where I'll just muse through what people say and synthesize information into an organized summary. Anything new that I find and say will be game testing.

If you want to have an immediate effect-ish with the direction of Brawl+, don't forget the link to the group chat on the first page!

 

[leafgreen386]

@Skully: Whatever gravity you use, make sure it's something between 1.15 and 1.20. Any more, and recoveries get nerfed terribly. Any less, and it's not heavy enough. I'd recommend something around 1.165x grav, which is 3F951EB8 in hex.

As for hitstun... I do think we need slightly more. Not that much more, though. If grabs can't combo after 30-60 frames of hitstun are added, then that's too bad. They're not going to combo. Any more hitstun than that and I think we'd be going too far.

Also, is anyone working on getting an auto-l-cancel code up? It's a pretty popular idea, so I'm surprised we don't have one yet.

 

[Cemetery]

Yay! Thanks leafgreen.

 

[kupo15]

No, I was not saying that we actually need to make all grabs ridiculous. kupo and I differ on that. Trust me, I like my current character's superiority.

Wait! Hold on! I never said they have to be ridiculous! I said we need more hit stun and the right amount will probably be around when grabs become more useful. Way to twist my words around -_-

 

[M15t3R E]

Wait! Hold on! I never said they have to be ridiculous! I said we need more hit stun and the right amount will probably be around when grabs become more useful. Way to twist my words around -_-

Sure, but please be aware of any brokenness that may occur with increased hitstun, so test thoroughly. If we can't make throws amazing unless we increase hitstun by a very large amount, then seriously don't worry about the throws. The game doesn't NEED a lot more hitstun, just slightly more.

 

[MBlaze]

I think we're going too far on a lot of crap here, my examples:

-Auto l cancel
-Messing with grabs
-Knockback and screwing with characters.

Seriously this is getting out of hand, we should just have in:

-Hitstun
-Melee Air dodge (If it works well with Brawl+)
-L cancelling
-Sheild stun
-No tripping
-Others that don't involve gameplay.

I think that we're going way to far into this and changing too much stuff. Hitstun is one thing but gravity and crap we should probably leave alone. Esspicially the auto-l cancel. Other than these I'm behind you guys all the way.

 

[kupo15]

Sure, but please be aware of any brokenness that may occur with increased hitstun, so test thoroughly. If we can't make throws amazing unless we increase hitstun by a very large amount, then seriously don't worry about the throws. The game doesn't NEED a lot more hitstun, just slightly more.

Seeing that I made the "Super combos in Training mode" vid I am quite aware of the "brokeness" meter. Btw, those combos don't work against humans who knows how to DI properly. Im making another vid with more characters and in this one, you will be seeing more insane combos than the first vid. It may look broken but its not. If it takes me up to an hour to perform these combos without messing up on a CPU who sucks at DI, I can't imagine how hard it will be to do on a good human player. So trust me when I say that I am testing things out thoroughly.

The amount we have to increase maybe slightly or it may be more than slightly. We wont know until we try and we shouldn't be bickering about how much we should put. If we put the same amount of stun as 64 and it turns out to be too much, then we bring it down. Simple as that. No harm done. You guys shouldn't be getting so worked up about this. We are testing this out... -_-

 

[MBlaze]

Seeing that I made the "Super combos in Training mode" vid I am quite aware of the "brokeness" meter. Btw, those combos don't work against humans who knows how to DI properly. Im making another vid with more characters and in this one, you will be seeing more insane combos than the first vid. It may look broken but its not. If it takes me up to an hour to perform these combos without messing up on a CPU who sucks at DI, I can't imagine how hard it will be to do on a good human player. So trust me when I say that I am testing things out thoroughly.

The amount we have to increase maybe slightly or it may be more than slightly. We wont know until we try and we shouldn't be bickering about how much we should put. If we put the same amount of stun as 64 and it turns out to be too much, then we bring it down. Simple as that. No harm done. You guys shouldn't be getting so worked up about this. We are testing this out... -_-

I'm not worked up over the hitstun at all, I'm encouraging it. It's just the auto-l cancel that I highly oppose.

 

[kupo15]

I ment, dont get worked up over the amount of hitstun. We need to try several times to find the right amount. This was mainly towards Misster E btw.

I hope PW allows us to adjust it ourselves instead of waiting for him to re code everything.

 

[M15t3R E]

I wish we didn't have to put all the pressure on PW =/

 

[leafgreen386]

Marioblaze, why are you so strongly opposed to an auto l-cancel? DDD and snake will be just as broken without it as they would be with it. If it's possible to do something, a player will do it. And with such a fundamental technique as l-canceling, players WILL do it. Saying that snake and DDD players should have to "work" for it is missing the point. It doesn't make them any less broken by making them have to manually l-cancel. They're still going to pull off every ridiculous thing they would've before. We're doing this to increase depth of the game. Having to press a button every time you do an aerial does not increase depth. It just makes it so you have to press a button every time you do an aerial. And it barely increases the skill level required to play the game.

 

[M15t3R E]

^Right.

It'll make the game much faster paced which I am all for. Also since it takes less coding than manual l-cancel it should be a no brainer.