Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[JJ259]

am i reading this right?


snakes at a disadvantage over every char. except ROb?

*leaves*

No, you're not reading it right.

Snake has a disadvantage against ROB, Pikachu and Toon link and is equal to some people as well.

 

[menofuntall]

Well, I asked earlier but also have more to follow up so...

Why is Ike at a disadvantage against Ganondorf?
For that matter, why is he at a disadvantage against Mario?

I'm not sure about Ganondorf, but Mario screws up Ike's recovery very badly with a FLUDD. Quick Draw is sent in the opposite direction, thereby making it useless, while Aether is blown away as Ike is spinning at the top. If he felt like it, he could also screw up Quick Draw with the Cape. Fireballs, although easily dodged, can and will shut down a Quick Draw approach. Once Mario can send Ike far enough that his second jump can't save him, Ike is dead.

 

[Pledge]

Conway has an advantage over Banks. More range speed and priority. Espc. after he learns how to play two way hockey.

 

[Nicktendo]

DK counters snake

1) dk isnt really slow
2) dk lives long; can eat quiet a few aaa and ftilts
3) dk has more range than snake. ftilt outranges his ftilt and so does fsmash
4) snakes recovery and dk = spiked snake. also dk has huge grab range, can grab snake out of the cypher well
5) down b > snakes motar sliding
6) down b > snakes dsmash mine
7) down b > snakes whole ground game
8) bair uair > snakes air game
9) DK can kill snake earlier than snake kills him

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167493

 

[Gleam]

Well I said I would try out Sonic more to see why he apparently has an advantage over Ganondorf. Trying to get more informed on his Spring Gimp and everything.

I don't mean to be ignorant, but even after using Sonic more, not only do I believe Ganondorf>Sonic, he completely destroys the hedgehog.

Sonic Spring Gimp, while I'ms ure is very useful in certain situations, has not shown me that it will instantly spell doom for Ganondorf, Even if Ganondorf is spring gimped under Final Destination's stage, he can still recover. Though it is very tricky. Other than that, I still don't see the spring gimp affecting Ganondorf much at all.

Once again, I repeat, Ganondorf>Sonic in Range, damage, knockback, and priority. Basically ANY ground related move that Sonic dishes out, Ganondorf can either nullify or completely out prioritize and deliver incredible damage and knockback.

The same thing goes in the Air. Ganondorf>Sonic in Reach, knockback, damage, and priority. Any aerial attack sonic dishes out, Ganondorf can counter.

Unless Sonic is going to rely on just gimping Ganondorf into submission, Ganondorf should seriously take this one hands down.

I'll keep looking more on the spring gimp,but this is what I feel.

 

[Conda]

am i reading this right?


snakes at a disadvantage over every char. except ROb?

*leaves*

Learn to read spreadsheets.


But yeah, this chart is inaccurate for many other reasons. Whoever is the most popular has likely the most accurate listing so far. Most people know little about other chars, like Ness, and it shows in the chart.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well I said I would try out Sonic more to see why he apparently has an advantage over Ganondorf. Trying to get more informed on his Spring Gimp and everything.

I don't mean to be ignorant, but even after using Sonic more, not only do I believe Ganondorf>Sonic, he completely destroys the hedgehog.

Sonic Spring Gimp, while I'ms ure is very useful in certain situations, has not shown me that it will instantly spell doom for Ganondorf, Even if Ganondorf is spring gimped under Final Destination's stage, he can still recover. Though it is very tricky. Other than that, I still don't see the spring gimp affecting Ganondorf much at all.

Once again, I repeat, Ganondorf>Sonic in Range, damage, knockback, and priority. Basically ANY ground related move that Sonic dishes out, Ganondorf can either nullify or completely out prioritize and deliver incredible damage and knockback.

The same thing goes in the Air. Ganondorf>Sonic in Reach, knockback, damage, and priority. Any aerial attack sonic dishes out, Ganondorf can counter.

Unless Sonic is going to rely on just gimping Ganondorf into submission, Ganondorf should seriously take this one hands down.

I'll keep looking more on the spring gimp,but this is what I feel.

wel there's your problem... you aren't good with sonic

 

[Browny]

Stop saying "many characters." When arguing for a specific matchup, you should completely disregard all characters except the two involved in the matchup. Going further off the stage to edgeguard Marth is not important, as when you finally reach him he still outranges you and will be much better able to defend himself than almost all of the characters you are used to edgeguarding. His aerials come out just as fast as yours, are more powerful than yours, and have more range than yours. A good Marth is a ***** to edgeguard.

Because Marth is better in those aspects than Lucario. Marth has a better approach game than Lucario, a better range than Lucario, a better ground game, a tied aerial game and a harder to edgeguard (though shorter) recovery. If Marth plays aggressive when on the stage, and defensive when recovering, he can pretty much shut Lucario's game down, thanks to that small range advantage.

wait what....

aura sphere as an edgeguarder is better than anything marth has. theres no need to attack marth in mid air when all you have to do is space yourself enough to bait marth into any attack. if he does anything except air dodge, hes dead. same applied the other way around. if marth tries to take on lucario off stage and hes got an aura sphere waiting for him, how does marth get around that? and im not even considering using double team as a recovery, if used from high up its a free ride back to the stage.

i really cant believe how much you underestimate aura sphere. a projectile that kills marth at 100%, and can be comboed into directly from a f-air or many of his other attacks is just too strong. when you consider match ups like toon link, snake and rob you always have to take into account thier projectiles, this is no different, except lucario is packing probably the strongest projectile in the game. and as before you claim its easily dodged and shielded. well by that reasoning, all of robs, snakes, TLs, pits, lucas etc projectiles are easily dodged and shielded. oh wait, not theyre not. Ignoring his strongest move, why dont you ignore snakes uptilt, or MKs shuttle loop? by your reasoning marth has an infinite advantager over anyone with less range. and you cant jab aura sphere once they get beyond 12% damage, which only applies if lucario spams baby aura spheres. try jabbing even a 1 second charged aura sphere when lucario is at 100% and see what happens

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wait what....

aura sphere as an edgeguarder is better than anything marth has. theres no need to attack marth in mid air when all you have to do is space yourself enough to bait marth into any attack. if he does anything except air dodge, hes dead. same applied the other way around. if marth tries to take on lucario off stage and hes got an aura sphere waiting for him, how does marth get around that? and im not even considering using double team as a recovery, if used from high up its a free ride back to the stage.

i really cant believe how much you underestimate aura sphere. a projectile that kills marth at 100%, and can be comboed into directly from a f-air or many of his other attacks is just too strong. when you consider match ups like toon link, snake and rob you always have to take into account thier projectiles, this is no different, except lucario is packing probably the strongest projectile in the game. and as before you claim its easily dodged and shielded. well by that reasoning, all of robs, snakes, TLs, pits, lucas etc projectiles are easily dodged and shielded. oh wait, not theyre not. Ignoring his strongest move, why dont you ignore snakes uptilt, or MKs shuttle loop? by your reasoning marth has an infinite advantager over anyone with less range. and you cant jab aura sphere once they get beyond 12% damage, which only applies if lucario spams baby aura spheres. try jabbing even a 1 second charged aura sphere when lucario is at 100% and see what happens

unless it's fully charged, marth can fair through it. Even if it's fully charged, it won't kill unless lucario is at high damage, or is losing.

 

[Conda]

Aura sphere is fantastic in the hands of a good lucario. Trying to say it's not is just wrong. You can punish any type of lag with Aura sphere, especially landing lag.

And of course it's going to be fully charged, Hedgedawg. Stop pulling as much negative points out as you can muster.
Also, "it won't kill unless lucario is at high damage, or is losing". This is a part of the lucario playstyle. Of course killing(with anything) is difficult unless your at high percent. Great discovery sherlock.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Aura sphere is fantastic in the hands of a good lucario. Trying to say it's not is just wrong. You can punish any type of lag with Aura sphere, especially landing lag.

And of course it's going to be fully charged, Hedgedawg. Stop pulling as much negative points out as you can muster.
Also, "it won't kill unless lucario is at high damage, or is losing". This is a part of the lucario playstyle. Of course killing(with anything) is difficult unless your at high percent. Great discovery sherlock.

I was responding to his assertion that "try jabbing against even a 1 second charged aura sphere and see what happens" what happes is that the sword goes right through it and cancells out aura sphere.

And, BTW, as soon as lucario's at a high enough damage to be a threat, marth can kill him with any of a number of moves.

 

[Shök]

Honestly, The way it looks is that Marth, MK, Falco, Snake, Toon Link, Diddy, Pit, ROB and Game and Watch are dominating everyone except each other. Top and High tier peeps 4SURE

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Honestly, The way it looks is that Marth, MK, Falco, Snake, Toon Link, Diddy, Pit, ROB and Game and Watch are dominating everyone except each other. Top and High tier peeps 4SURE

zelda's honestly right behind them in the matchups... I don't care what it says, wolf and wario are NOT counters to zelda, and if Game and Watch has an advantage, it's not a big one.

 

[Browny]

I was responding to his assertion that "try jabbing against even a 1 second charged aura sphere and see what happens" what happes is that the sword goes right through it and cancells out aura sphere.

And, BTW, as soon as lucario's at a high enough damage to be a threat, marth can kill him with any of a number of moves.

I notice youve never played lucario, let alone against one.

you CANT jab an aura sphere beyond 12% damage, theres no ifs or buts. it goes through MKs mach tornado at even 8% what chance do you think marth has of stopping it.

 

[OrionX1989]

zelda's honestly right behind them in the matchups... I don't care what it says, wolf and wario are NOT counters to zelda, and if Game and Watch has an advantage, it's not a big one.

yeah i agree, i don't know how wario has an advantage over zelda. zelda has an extremely high priority up smash which breaks most of warios approachs. the only effective approach ive found is the sliding up smash and that gets predictable after the first few times. distance puts zelda on the range offensive with dins fire. and wario can do nothing but air dodge and hope zelda doesn't blast him with any of her kicks. the only thing wario has over zelda is edgeguarding. and that isn't enough given the extensive range of her recovery. feel free to disagree, i'm all for learning other opinions, i'm not sticking to this. this is just what i've noticed. no comment on wolf.

 

[Gleam]

wel there's your problem... you aren't good with sonic

and I could say you aren't good with Ganondorf. The point is, I'm going by what I see, and what I see is Ganondorf>Sonic in perhaps every possible way except speed. I don't see his Spring Gimp affecting Ganondorf greatly at all, and I certainy don't see Sonic securing the victory by just gimping.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Honestly, The way it looks is that Marth, MK, Falco, Snake, Toon Link, Diddy, Pit, ROB and Game and Watch are dominating everyone except each other. Top and High tier peeps 4SURE

As a former diddy main i can tell you, diddy, as much as i love him is not top tier i don't even think he will make high tier. His bananas are good but his priority is so-so his up-B can be gimped (and once he is hit using it he will most likely die). He has a tough time killing at low percentages and unless he can get a good rhythm going, he is going to lose.

zelda probably has the advantage against toon link, rob and is at least even if not better than some of the others on the list. I will go into more detail later.

Edits: I forgot diddy's reach is lacking.

zelda edits: I read on the toon link boards that zelda gives them a problem which makes sense b/c his projectile game is ruined and i can't imagaine his reach being much better if better at all (just a quick reason for toon link vs zelda). ROB i posted about in a older post on this board it also had to do with his projectiles being nullified and him being a big target. Falco reflecter is useless against din's while zelda's neutral B stops falcos long distance game and zelda has a strong close up game and has more reach then falco (i have not had much experance myself on falco vs zelda so someone with more info would be more useful. I also had a old post that said why mk vs zelda at this moment should be even but in the future when more mk vs zelda data is collacted should be change (my guess since there are so many mk and he will be more developed it will be in mk favor)

ok so i don't just get flamed for being bias let me say who i think will beat zelda on this list. i have changed my opinion on snake and say good snakes have the advantage. I don't have the data to say marth vs zelda so i wont coment. And for G&W he has the advantage his bucket makes din's fire risky to use and he can kill at low % with d-smah and f-smash he has ether a 6/4 or 7/3 i would think against zelda do to zelda being pretty strong and g&w being light so zelda does have a chance but g&w have the advantage no doubt since his move set is a counter.

I don't have the pit info needed but he is not as great as some seem to think he is he has a hard time killing and his arrows are not really that big of deal. He has a good recover many jumps and a long up-B but if you even just tap him with anything his up-B gets gimped (i hear its hard to due against good pits). Pit is a good character and most likley be in high tier (just a guess) but he is anything but unbeatable.

Just so people know were i think zelda stands so they can get an idea what my zelda mind set is. I feel zelda has high tier potential but might not make it there do to lack of people playing her. and i am not saying the very top of high tier but i do feel she belongs somewere in that tier my thought is most likely the bottom half of it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I play a good sonic... not great, but good, and he seems not to have much trouble with ganondorf. A lot of G-Dorf's moves have enough lag to leave an opening for sonic to get inside... once inside, sonic can keep the pressure on G-Dorf pretty well, and can chase him fairly far out, though he has to wory about ganoncide.

and it was a legitimate comment to say "you are no good at sonic" it wasn't an attempt to insult you, but sonic is a character that takes some getting used to, and, if you aren't you'll suck... so picking up sonic for a few matches and totally losing to g-dorf means nothing.

 

[Browny]

and I could say you aren't good with Ganondorf. The point is, I'm going by what I see, and what I see is Ganondorf>Sonic in perhaps every possible way except speed. I don't see his Spring Gimp affecting Ganondorf greatly at all, and I certainy don't see Sonic securing the victory by just gimping.

ok look heres an example of a proper spring gimp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NFVTpPKFQ
only watch the 2nd and 3rd clips with ike. ike has a similar fall speed to ganon. now when ike jumps for the ledge he has a few options. he can either attack the spring as it falls, and die since his aerials have huge lag, like ganons. or he can airdodge and fall even further beneath the stage. ganon is no different except his u-air is probably fast enough to still recover with. those clips were from right next to the edge. imagine if ganon was about twice as far out, easily possible with a bthrow from about 80%, theres just no way you can recover from that.

sonics dthrow sends enemies beneath the stage, and from there a spring gimp will kill more often than not.

 

[Matthewbomb12]

You didn't even finish the chart? What a waste of time. Why post half finished data?

your not doing any better thanks this helped

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

"aura sphere as an edgeguarder is better than anything marth has." - djbrowny

That would be a opinion.

"if he does anything except air dodge, hes dead." - djbrowny

Wrong, if they are small, he can spam fair, if it is large he can counter.

"except lucario is packing probably the strongest projectile in the game." - djbrowny

PK Flash is the stongest projectile in the game, it deals 36%, Aura sphere with Lucario at 170% deals about 26%. (G&W's Oil Panic is extremely strong, but I am not sure whether or not it is considered a projectile.)

"and as before you claim its easily dodged and shielded. well by that reasoning, all of robs, snakes, TLs, pits, lucas etc projectiles are easily dodged and shielded. oh wait, not theyre not. Ignoring his strongest move, why dont you ignore snakes uptilt, or MKs shuttle loop?"
- djbrowny

Lucario's projectile is not nearly the same as any of the things listed above. Don't get me wrong Lucario's projectile is formidable, but it is not the end-all, the projectile it resembles the closest would be Samus's neutral b.

(Sorry about the weird quoting, I screwed something up.)

 

[Lord Aether]

I'm not sure about Ganondorf, but Mario screws up Ike's recovery very badly with a FLUDD. Quick Draw is sent in the opposite direction, thereby making it useless, while Aether is blown away as Ike is spinning at the top. If he felt like it, he could also screw up Quick Draw with the Cape. Fireballs, although easily dodged, can and will shut down a Quick Draw approach. Once Mario can send Ike far enough that his second jump can't save him, Ike is dead.

Did not think of that. I was thinking that Luigi and Mario were on the same level for some reason, but after being reminded of that I felt like doing a picardsigh. XD

But I still don't get ganondorf. Isn't Ike a bit faster, more range and easier to space against him?

 

[Browny]

Lucario's projectile is not nearly the same as any of the things listed above. Don't get me wrong Lucario's projectile is formidable, but it is not the end-all, the projectile it resembles the closest would be Samus's neutral b.

(Sorry about the weird quoting, I screwed something up.)

is it really not? snakes utilt and MK shuttle loop can kill at around 110%, so can aura sphere. and aura sphere is incredible for punising. snake and MKs kill moves arent really to punish whiifed attacks as much as they are GTFO moves which also happen to KO since they are relatively low ranged.

 

[Nicktendo]

DK counters snake

1) dk isnt really slow
2) dk lives long; can eat quiet a few aaa and ftilts
3) dk has more range than snake. ftilt outranges his ftilt and so does fsmash
4) snakes recovery and dk = spiked snake. also dk has huge grab range, can grab snake out of the cypher well
5) down b > snakes motar sliding
6) down b > snakes dsmash mine
7) down b > snakes whole ground game
8) bair uair > snakes air game
9) DK can kill snake earlier than snake kills him

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167493

reposting for emphatize to be seen

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

is it really not? snakes utilt and MK shuttle loop can kill at around 110%, so can aura sphere. and aura sphere is incredible for punising. snake and MKs kill moves arent really to punish whiifed attacks as much as they are GTFO moves which also happen to KO since they are relatively low ranged.

But they are also faster and don't need to be charged among other things. If lucario misses with aura sphere, he'll have to make a new one, and since aerials can cancel out any but a fully charged aura sphere, he's only really got one shot at using it to hinder recovery... and it's not really that fast anyway, so if you use it from a distance, it's going to get dodged... he can't even time it in a tricky maner like zelda can din's fire.


in short, lucario's Aura sphere actually IS more easily dodged than any of those moves you mentioned... it comes out slow, so is a terrible decision at close range because you'll just get hit and drop it... but it also travels slow, so if you use it far away, it's easy to see coming and avoid/sheild/counter. And, as mentioned, you can't just pull it out of nowhere, you need to charge it first. Not that that's hard to do, but it's something to keep in mind... especially considering that uncharged it's easily dissapated.

Snake's uptilt and MK's shuttle loop DO come out of nowhere and are very difficult to punish in most cases (though Zelda's Usmash is the bane of most botched shuttle loop attempts.)

Saying that lucario's aura sphere isn't a good move would be foolish, but saying it's a GREAT move is equally as foolish. It's good, it's got decent strength for a projectile, but it's also got a lot of shortcomings which keep it from being considered one of the game's best projectiles

 

[Gleam]

I play a good sonic... not great, but good, and he seems not to have much trouble with ganondorf. A lot of G-Dorf's moves have enough lag to leave an opening for sonic to get inside... once inside, sonic can keep the pressure on G-Dorf pretty well, and can chase him fairly far out, though he has to wory about ganoncide.

and it was a legitimate comment to say "you are no good at sonic" it wasn't an attempt to insult you, but sonic is a character that takes some getting used to, and, if you aren't you'll suck... so picking up sonic for a few matches and totally losing to g-dorf means nothing.

Once again, I'm just basing this off what I see. But, if anything, I will try to get better with Sonic.

ok look heres an example of a proper spring gimp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NFVTpPKFQ
only watch the 2nd and 3rd clips with ike. ike has a similar fall speed to ganon. now when ike jumps for the ledge he has a few options. he can either attack the spring as it falls, and die since his aerials have huge lag, like ganons. or he can airdodge and fall even further beneath the stage. ganon is no different except his u-air is probably fast enough to still recover with. those clips were from right next to the edge. imagine if ganon was about twice as far out, easily possible with a bthrow from about 80%, theres just no way you can recover from that.

sonics dthrow sends enemies beneath the stage, and from there a spring gimp will kill more often than not.

I'll be honest, Ganondorf could've easily have survived the gimps on the first and second clip. Ike pretty much took his time falling down and then deciding to use his Up-B recovery. That might just be a problem associated with Ike, but Ganondorf can pretty much use his Up-B after a Spring gimp in a little less than a second.

The third was a bit more legitimate, but Ike could've used his second jump, something would allow more distance than just trying to air dodge and getting very little distance, and dropping half way down. Most of the time Ike just decided to fall half way under the stage, land on that spring, and then decide to recover.

Did not think of that. I was thinking that Luigi and Mario were on the same level for some reason, but after being reminded of that I felt like doing a picardsigh. XD

But I still don't get ganondorf. Isn't Ike a bit faster, more range and easier to space against him?

Actually, the only speed advantage Ike has over Ganondorf is his running speed. Ike does have better range though.

 

[Browny]

Saying that lucario's aura sphere isn't a good move would be foolish, but saying it's a GREAT move is equally as foolish. It's good, it's got decent strength for a projectile, but it's also got a lot of shortcomings which keep it from being considered one of the game's best projectiles

decent strength? which projectiles in the game do more damage.... gordos, PK flash. thats it. Its one of the strongest, and 34x (or something like that) more reliable than gordo, and no one ever gets hit by pk flash. so when its the third strongest out of 22 characters, i think that ranks as very high strength.

and what shortcomings does it have? when you compare it to something like dins fire, which is probably one of the best, dins is next to useless at close range since it does far less damage for its activation time. long range dins also loses out since airdodging is too easy. aura sphere can be spammed right in front of the enemies face, unlike a gordo which needs some range.

id like to know what disadvantages it has, because so far as i see it
pros
-has KO potential beyond 100%, if lucario gets to 182% this will kill lightweights at 60.
-can be charged,stored and fired in mid-air (unlike samus', dins fire loses your recovery)
-charging can be cancelled immediately into air dodge or double team
-spammable at low % to force enemies to change thier approaches
-reverse charging can be used to edgeguard (this does a lot of free damage against anyone who cant sweetspot an edge, snake and yoshi get torn up by it)
-full charge stays with lucario, even if he is grabbed, attacked. it takes quite a lot of damage to get rid of the charge.
-charges to full strength in about 1.5 seconds when lucario is high %

cons
-slow moving at low %, however its speed increases dramatically as lucario gets stronger
-lag after firing is larger that normal, and if it is reflected from close range lucario cant dodge it
-generates backwards air momentum, which is dangeroes if it is used to deter edgeguarders since it sends lucario away from the stage.

most projectiles in the game have no cons, so aura sphere has its initial drawbacks but i think its pros outweight the cons completely once lucario gets higher and its speed increases. I dont know if you can consider pk flash as a real projectile since it never hits, but either way aura sphere is easily one of the best in the game, and can play some awesome midgames when both lucario and the enemy are above 100%. if hes got the sphere the enemy cant make one wrong move, its like warios fart in a way, just no where near as powerful

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you missed the obvious con that lucario is required to be at a high damage before Aura sphere becomes good. other than that, it has miserable damage for a charged projectile.

 

[Browny]

at 0% aura sphere does 13%.

which projectiles in the game deal more than that?
Gordo
Ness PK fire
Needle storm
Charge shot
=.= turnip

i dont think the nikita or adult links bomb do 13, but im not sure. Dins fire is too variable since distance affects it so much. so how is that pitiful damage when it is in the top 5(7), and again gordo, pk fire and turnips are hardly reliable in any way.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I think we can agree that Aura sphere is a good or a really good projectile. But the question is, is it good enough to outweigh Lucario's disadvantages against Marth?

I don't think it does.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

at 0% aura sphere does 13%.

which projectiles in the game deal more than that?
Gordo
Ness PK fire
Needle storm
Charge shot
=.= turnip

i dont think the nikita or adult links bomb do 13, but im not sure. Dins fire is too variable since distance affects it so much. so how is that pitiful damage when it is in the top 5(7), and again gordo, pk fire and turnips are hardly reliable in any way.

Din's fire does a good deal more than 13% and discounting it because it needs distance is like discounting Lucario's because it needs charged. Which PK fire, Gordo and Turnitp don't need to be. I'm pretty sure link's bombs and nikita do about 13 damage, maybe more maybe less... and they don't need to be charged. and, also, all projectiles listed including the ones I mentioned either travel faster than Aura sphere, can be controlled easier than aura sphere, harder to punish than aura sphere, don't need to be charged like aura sphere or some combination of all 4. Quite frankly, I mean what I said. Aura sphere is good, but no more.

And there's NO WAY it can even come close to swaying the advantage in the marth mtchup to lucario's favour.

edit: and what's with power being the sole determinant of worth of a projectile? pulateena's arrows are much better than aura sphere ever will be and do far less damage. Just like Marth's recovery is far better than lucario's though it gains less distance.

 

[IvanEva]

But yeah, this chart is inaccurate for many other reasons. Whoever is the most popular has likely the most accurate listing so far. Most people know little about other chars, like Ness, and it shows in the chart.

Which ones do you feel are inaccurate and why?

reposting for emphatize to be seen

DK > Snake, eh? I'm not convinced just yet. I'll post a rebuttal (or wait for Emblem Lord to go all "Snake has no counters" ) later today (gotta rush off to work for now).

Everybody else in agreement that Snake > Zelda and Zelda > Snake?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake > Zelda.

lol@ DK Snake.

You better have a good argument for that one.

As I have said before when you try to argue that a lower tier can compete with one of the best characters in the game you better have some solid reasoning.

 

[DanGR]

can you put olimar as having an advantage over zelda? It's a VERY hard matchup for zelda in my opinion. If you want to rebuttal my arguement then please read the ENTIRE thread(2 pages only, no big deal) here's why:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161844

summary:it's clear that they're having a very difficult time against olimar. For me, this is a sinch. Basically, all i have to do is throw pikmen until she attacks them. From there, i can rush in and grab or something else.

this really seems like zelda's worst match-up in my opinion. Almost anything you do net's him a throw or smash. I really just need to play my friend more often

 

[Lord Aether]

Actually, the only speed advantage Ike has over Ganondorf is his running speed. Ike does have better range though.

So why is this in Ganondorf's favor? Personally, I think it should be in Ike's favor due to the range, and the fact that Ganondorf's startup can also lead to Counters...

And which of Ganondorf's moves are faster than Ike's anyway?

 

[Gleam]

So why is this in Ganondorf's favor? Personally, I think it should be in Ike's favor due to the range, and the fact that Ganondorf's startup can also lead to Counters...

And which of Ganondorf's moves are faster than Ike's anyway?

I might be reading the chart wrong, but it says that Ganondorf/Ike are neutral.

Attack speed:

All of Ganon's smashes are faster or equal to Ikes, his aerials are faster, and his ftilt and down tilt are faster.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Flame choke and Wizard's foot comes out elatively quickly. his Dsmash is meh, and his Fsmash is quicker than Ike's with slightly less power and KO potential.

 

[Lord Aether]

I don't even use the smashes with Ike save Dsmash and the occasional usmash. But even then, all of Ike's Aerials are a lot more ranges than Ganondorf's, so I can see Ike's Aerial priority as much better even if they are slower...

And yeah they are neutral, but I still don't agree with that; I'm going to see how far I can get with arguing for Ike's favor.

 

[Gindler]

Anyone for yoshi having the best projectile in the game? Unlike Lucario's aura or Ness's PK attacks of anykind yoshi's eggs cannot be absorbed...by anyone! They are also fast moving and aimable while still not being too predictable, they are a great edgeguard do to the ability to aim it well (if you've practiced) and it gives yoshi a boost for a little big of a recovery. It's also not easily punished unless used right in someone's face and no one would ever do that, so this projectile has all the perks and none of the cons, except they do do only about 9 damage each egg which isn't a whole lot.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pit's arrows take the crown.