Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wow, you don't know Mr Game and Watch that well, do you? You've pretty much put out that he has nothing going for him against a "good zelda" besides his bucket, and even that you're underestimating. You even made things up! How very un-classy.



Actually, it can be put away. If Zelda is close as she can get, without getting hit (Otherwise, if the food things hit her the Din's fire is null) and G&W is using Chef, I can consistently drop it into a bucket. It's not that hard, especially once you see her starting up the attack. You also must understand that not all G&W's use the chef, so I really don't know why you brought that up. Point is, you can bucket out of chef.

Now to your next point...

I call BS. Not one of Zelda's moves can kill G&W at 40%. In fact, every single attack in Zelda's repertoire, with the exception of her Fair/Bair, only starts killing G&W at 100% damage. You claim that she has better killing options? Barely. Here, I did a quick test in training mode to see at what percents Zelda killed G&W and what percents he killed her. These are taken from the center of Final Destination, and DI is used.


Kill Percents (WITH DI)
G&W Fsmash - 75%
G&W Dsmash - 71%
G&W Usmash - 70%
G&W Fair - 123%

Zelda Fsmash - Over 120%
Zelda Dsmash - 130ish?
Zelda Usmash - 105% (last hit of the attack)
Zelda Fair - 75% Sweetspotted

I was more precise with G&W's, and got sloppy with Zelda. Regardless, she clearly does not have the advantage over G&W when it comes to killing. Some other things I checked were throws, and those didnt kill until the mid to high 100s. I also took account that the smash attack did multiple hits for the Usmash, and only got hit with the last hit. I forgot to only get hit by the last hit of the Fsmash, so its a bit off, of course. Theres also the fact that two of those hit multiple times before shooting G&W off. G&W can easily DI in the middle of the hits, so DIing your attacks are easy. G&W's attacks can be quite sudden, giving a large chance of you DIing incorrectly or even forgetting to do that!

The 40% is way off.

G&W can shut down your projectiles AND has superior killing options thus far.




As I just mentioned, the whole argument that chef is useless because of Din's Fire is wrong. He can bucket.

The thing is, without Din's fire, you're going to have to approach now. Zelda's approaching options are sorta... limited. Her Dash attack is predictable, easy to punish, and can be shield grabbed. G&W's Bair can easily eat through it, and I would not be surprised in the least if G&W's Dtilt broke through it. His dash attack would cancel out her dash attack (this is just novelty information, it's not like I'd go to cancel your out in a match; I would just punish you normally.). Face it. She's more geared to forcing an approach than approaching herself.

And airborne G&W useless? hahaha
Obviously he's not going to use Uair into your Usmash, so bringing up any of his aerials save his Dair is stupid.

But lefts go into your claim that key cant break her Usmash. G&W's Key, when getting momentum, and as long as it hasn't just started up or is finishing up, will break through Zelda's Usmash. His Dair out prioritizes her smash; The kay will break through every spark, and will only take damage on the second hit, but he will still go through and hit her, knocking her back. She can still hit G&W if he mistimes the key. Did you know he could easily bait an usmash by doing his Dair, and thne slowfalling it?

How do you propose she deal with the Turtle? It outranges her Fsmash. The Dtilt? It outranges everything of hers, save the Fsmash (which you can do a quick turtle to punish). If it comes to a battle of pokes, G&W will usually win. His Dsmah is slower, but has more range and far more power.

Try to outspace him. He forces an approach from you, has attacks the out prioritizes your own, and has a spacing game on par with hers.



She's very punishable with her recovery. G&W isn't
If he's coming onto the stage from above with parachute, he can easily go into bucket.
If he's coming from under, he can just sweetspot the ledge, and use his invincibility frames to negate Din's Fire, OR he can pull away from the ledge and quickly bucket.



I'm sorry to say, but she does not out range him, and she does not out prioritize him either. They both have options when it comes to range and priority, and Zelda doesn't have the better ones to work with. I'm not saying G&W's are superior, but they're close enough that it's just silly to claim that Zelda shuts down G&W in these areas.

And lighter and weaker? No. G&W has more options of killing, and they're far stronger and harder to DI against. Despite his light frame, he deals with her comparable weak moves with good Directional Influence. He kills far sooner than she does, except for her kick, which isn't a problem because he can still take her in close combat and worry little about it. Turtle wins.




Once the bucket is full, others spamming projectiles does become somewhat a problem.
Not so much, though.
Because both Fair and the Key totally cancel out Din's Fire. The Jab, the Hammers, and a few others cancel out it to, but the Fair and Dair cancel it out around the whole body, similar to Yoshi's Nair.

Now when you're close, you play a lot differently, because that is the amazing mindgame that is the bucket.

G&W has the advantage.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158672
Even the Zelda guide sees this as a hard matchup.

forgot about the range of G&W's dtilt... but, seriously, it's wrong the way you tried to determine kill % it's terribly onesided to only get hit by the last parts of zelda's attacks... cances are, you would be hit by at least half of them... and lighting kick and Uair will both kill at lower than 75% damage, I'm sure of it.

and, BTW, her Uair can get through a key, she just needs to time it right. also, claiming that zelda's Usmash as a key counter is negated because you can bate her into using it early is just foolish. by that logic, there are several things she could bate YOU into which are at least as bad.

also, why does everyone say: without din's fire, zelda will be forced to approach. that's just stupid. True, if she would never use din's fire, she wouldn't be able to force the other character to approach, but G&W can't force her to approach him either. if a large part of your matchup in G&W's favour is based on the fact that she'll have a hard time approaching him, then you'd have to take into account how hard of a time G&W has approaching her because there's an equal pressure for either one to approach. As for punishing her dash attack as an entry, if you try to sheid grab or sidestep dodge it, she can punish you even more by duing a dash-to-usmash instead of a dash attack. she still doesn't have the most options for approach, but she's not worthless. The matchup is probably tough for either character, but don't feel that G&W legitimately "counters" zelda.


as for Olimar being a hard counter for zelda, whoever said that. I'd have to say: no way. I don't honestly think zelda is a hard counter for olimar either, but she can outcamp him and her air game seems to beat his. he's hard to approach, but din's fire forces him to try to approach her. she might have some trouble getting yellows off of her, and reds aren't afraid of din's fire, but olimar, to my knowledge, has a bad approach game, and is reliant on stopping other from approaching. I'd say zelda is a soft counter to olimar.

 

[Juggalo]

Funny note: I searched the word "stupid" in this thread, and it came up with 32 posts. Way to go guys.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

forgot about the range of G&W's dtilt... but, seriously, it's wrong the way you tried to determine kill % it's terribly onesided to only get hit by the last parts of zelda's attacks... cances are, you would be hit by at least half of them... and lighting kick and Uair will both kill at lower than 75% damage, I'm sure of it.

I only got hit by the last hit of the Usmash. The Fsmash hits me with all of them. I was trying to determine what it killed at, but I do suppose I should of got it all. Maybe sometimes you wont hit with all of them in a battle?

Ah! Thats what I forgot. Zelda's Uair can kill decently, but I never checked for the percent it kills at. but the Fair kills exactly at 76% on G&W DIing. 75% is when he will barely survive the attack. It doesnt kill any lower unless the G&W DI's wrong or doesnt at all.

Ok, Just ran down and tested it: The Uair wont kill G&W until 75% if he DI's right. He survives at 74. This is short hopped Din's though. It could kill earlier depending on ceiling height and where it's used, but that's unimportant as G&W's kill moves can kill earlier depending on where he is too. It's a pretty strong move though.

and, BTW, her Uair can get through a key, she just needs to time it right. also, claiming that zelda's Usmash as a key counter is negated because you can bate her into using it early is just foolish. by that logic, there are several things she could bate YOU into which are at least as bad.

That wasn't the main body of my argument. The Key will go through the Usmash as long as you don't do it too early or too late. The last part about slowfalling to bait the usmash is just an added extra that I fit in, but I'm not trying to base my arguments on what ifs. She could probably bait G&W just as much. I was throwing in that scenario as food for thought; You can ignore it in the case of G&W vs Zelda.

It's a pretty difficult to time the Uair right because of the momentum of the key. It's either fast or slow.

also, why does everyone say: without din's fire, zelda will be forced to approach. that's just stupid. True, if she would never use din's fire, she wouldn't be able to force the other character to approach, but G&W can't force her to approach him either. if a large part of your matchup in G&W's favour is based on the fact that she'll have a hard time approaching him, then you'd have to take into account how hard of a time G&W has approaching her because there's an equal pressure for either one to approach. As for punishing her dash attack as an entry, if you try to sheid grab or sidestep dodge it, she can punish you even more by duing a dash-to-usmash instead of a dash attack. she still doesn't have the most options for approach, but she's not worthless. The matchup is probably tough for either character, but don't feel that G&W legitimately "counters" zelda.

Maybe G&W can't force any approaches out of Zelda, but it isn't a problem so much. Unlike Zelda, he has a great approach game that is quite hard to punish. The Bair has great range, shield pokes, lingers past sidestepping, impossible to shield grab if spaced right, and overall amazing. As long as G&W isn't pressured into making a sloppy approach (one that would be baited by Din's Fire, but that is gone now), G&W can make an approach at his leisure.

I don't have the most experience with dash attacks from Zelda, or her Usmash out of a dash (It's been tried on me before), but I don't think they're even close to as viable as any approaching options G&W has.

Also, a grab, if at the right percentage, equals a free kill unless you tech.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141781
Go to the Throw sections and look at the chart under Dthrow. I made that chart for Omega's guide. Zelda will get hit by the Dthrow - > Dsmash unless she can tech the throw. Some have easier times at teching this, I don't know where she stands. Get this: She stays in the blue section even in the 100s!

So if Zelda is over 100% damage, and gets grabbed, she's dead without teching. Just a little extra I feel is relevant for this matchup.


And


I'm not saying in any way that G&W is a true counter to Zelda. I'm just arguing that G&W does have the advantage over her. He doesn't completely shut her down, and she certainly is still viable. She just has to work that much harder against Mr. Game and Watch.

He has the advantage, and maybe not by a huge amount, but it's there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I only got hit by the last hit of the Usmash. The Fsmash hits me with all of them. I was trying to determine what it killed at, but I do suppose I should of got it all. Maybe sometimes you wont hit with all of them in a battle?

Ah! Thats what I forgot. Zelda's Uair can kill decently, but I never checked for the percent it kills at. but the Fair kills exactly at 76% on G&W DIing. 75% is when he will barely survive the attack. It doesnt kill any lower unless the G&W DI's wrong or doesnt at all.

Ok, Just ran down and tested it: The Uair wont kill G&W until 75% if he DI's right. He survives at 74. This is short hopped Din's though. It could kill earlier depending on ceiling height and where it's used, but that's unimportant as G&W's kill moves can kill earlier depending on where he is too. It's a pretty strong move though.



That wasn't the main body of my argument. The Key will go through the Usmash as long as you don't do it too early or too late. The last part about slowfalling to bait the usmash is just an added extra that I fit in, but I'm not trying to base my arguments on what ifs. She could probably bait G&W just as much. I was throwing in that scenario as food for thought; You can ignore it in the case of G&W vs Zelda.

It's a pretty difficult to time the Uair right because of the momentum of the key. It's either fast or slow.



Maybe G&W can't force any approaches out of Zelda, but it isn't a problem so much. Unlike Zelda, he has a great approach game that is quite hard to punish. The Bair has great range, shield pokes, lingers past sidestepping, impossible to shield grab if spaced right, and overall amazing. As long as G&W isn't pressured into making a sloppy approach (one that would be baited by Din's Fire, but that is gone now), G&W can make an approach at his leisure.

I don't have the most experience with dash attacks from Zelda, or her Usmash out of a dash (It's been tried on me before), but I don't think they're even close to as viable as any approaching options G&W has.

Also, a grab, if at the right percentage, equals a free kill unless you tech.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141781
Go to the Throw sections and look at the chart under Dthrow. I made that chart for Omega's guide. Zelda will get hit by the Dthrow - > Dsmash unless she can tech the throw. Some have easier times at teching this, I don't know where she stands. Get this: She stays in the blue section even in the 100s!

So if Zelda is over 100% damage, and gets grabbed, she's dead without teching. Just a little extra I feel is relevant for this matchup.


And


I'm not saying in any way that G&W is a true counter to Zelda. I'm just arguing that G&W does have the advantage over her. He doesn't completely shut her down, and she certainly is still viable. She just has to work that much harder against Mr. Game and Watch.

He has the advantage, and maybe not by a huge amount, but it's there.

I can concede a slight advantage, but I'd honestly put the match close to even... one of the reasons zeldas find G&W so hard is that zelda actaully has and avantage on over 90% of the cast I think. Marth is the only character I really fear when I'm playing zelda. Lucas and game and watch are certainly some of her tougher matchups, but she's still very much in the game against them. Lucas moreso than G&W I'm afraid. I'd go as far as to say that her only really bad matchup is marth. though, like I said, G&W and lucas aren't really good matchups. Maybe wario is even in the category with them, like I said, I can't imagine why but someone seems to think so. anyway you slice it, zelda's not used to not having an advantage.

 

[Facet]

Hedgedawg, I think its a good idea for you to drop the argument. Zelda is great, has tons of good matchups against other characters, and doesnt get nearly the amount of respect she deserves, but G&W is just really tough for her.

He has the advantage, and maybe not by a huge amount, but it's there.

You are correct. I'd say its about 6:4 for G&W.

There are, however, some minor flaws in your analysis which I feel obligated to point out.

- Zelda outprioritizes G&W. She outprioritizes just about everyone, thats her whole point.

- Zelda's approach is very underrated. With Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Running USmash, Shorthopped Lightning Kicks, and Forore's mindgames, she can mix it up quite a bit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hedgedawg, I think its a good idea for you to drop the argument. Zelda is great, has tons of good matchups against other characters, and doesnt get nearly the amount of respect she deserves, but G&W is just really tough for her.



You are correct. I'd say its about 6:4 for G&W.

There are, however, some minor flaws in your analysis which I feel obligated to point out.

- Zelda outprioritizes G&W. She outprioritizes just about everyone, thats her whole point.

- Zelda's approach is very underrated. With Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Running USmash, Shorthopped Lightning Kicks, and Forore's mindgames, she can mix it up quite a bit.

All I'm sayin is that it's pretty darn close... I even said I conceded g&w may have an advantage, but if he does, it's very slight.

 

[Earthbound360]

Change Ness' matchups back to the way they were before (minus the Mart, Charizard, and Squirtle part)

Again, it's been proven that Ness CANNOT be chaingrabbed by those characters with Xs
For example, Bowser is now an X for Ness, but that's incorrect. Ness does well on Bowser actually.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Seconded. Ness should be given back any positions he once had, Marth is still an X, and Squirtle and Charizard are X's as well.

Facet, I do agree with both those points somewhat. She does have some priority advantages, but they don't completely overshadow G&W. I don't know all that much about her approach, granted. So I'll take your word on it.

Though I have a really big problem with something on G&W's section of this chart...

Why the hell is he listed as having a disadvantage against Dedede when the guides of both sections say G&W has the advantage? I don't get how you could of listed that as such.

 

[xenero]

Ganondorf>Link, the only thing link has against ganondorf is his projectile spamming, but you'll take a few hits to get around that. With is about 12% damage, after that, Ganondorf easily beats link close range. Link can't run away well since he's slow and his upB is gimped easily.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Kirby has an advantage over Sheik. Since he's light, Kirby can DI easily out of her juggling Tilts. Kirby's Down + B goes through Sheik's USmash. Sheik is light and lacks a good killing move. Kirby > Sheik

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ganondorf>Link, the only thing link has against ganondorf is his projectile spamming, but you'll take a few hits to get around that. With is about 12% damage, after that, Ganondorf easily beats link close range. Link can't run away well since he's slow and his upB is gimped easily.

I disagree. Link outranges and outprioritizes G-dorf.

also, G-dorf has absolutely no response to projectile spamming. link can do 12% with one bomb, so trying to bull rush through to get at link will not get him through the projectile spamming with about 12% damage. In case you haven't noticed, gandondorf is a gigantic target and isn't very mobile. he's incredibly easy to ht with projectiles and he doesn't really have any way to get through them. his flame choke, one of his most used approach methods, is completely stopped by links' projectiles. A roll is punnished by link's sword and I'm pretty sure that wizard's foot and dash attack will only parry with a projectile. G-dorf's air-ground game also doesn't really get through projectiles at all...

I'm not saying link completely owns every aspect of the matchup, but if he's at least as good as the ganondorf he's playing against, then he should win.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

as for Olimar being a hard counter for zelda, whoever said that. I'd have to say: no way. I don't honestly think zelda is a hard counter for olimar either, but she can outcamp him and her air game seems to beat his. he's hard to approach, but din's fire forces him to try to approach her. she might have some trouble getting yellows off of her, and reds aren't afraid of din's fire, but olimar, to my knowledge, has a bad approach game, and is reliant on stopping other from approaching. I'd say zelda is a soft counter to olimar.

Olimar isn't just a side b. He has a far easier time approaching anyone in the game than Zelda does, seeing as he could move while spamming, use platforms better, has better range on the ground.... Actually, compared to at least 2/3 of the cast, his approach game is really good.

 

[IvanEva]

1. Ike's slow attack speed and lag is I'm sure what's keeping him down. Ganondorf and Ike both have bad lag on their attacks, with Ike having it worst. But at the very least, Ganondorf has decently quick execution speed. This doesn't go the same for Ike.

2. Ike's recovery is also easily gimped.

3. Jigglypuff has a slower runnning speed than Ganondorf

4. I remember in Melee that Jigglypuff would strike fear into peoples hearts because of her Rest.

5. Most of Jigglypuff's attacks also seem to have only horizontal momentum to them. This means that if Ganon can gain some air above jigglypuff, her attacks won't hit him.

6. Rollout can easily be countered by a Flame Choke. Pound has little reach to it, and sing is only good if an oppoent is at high damage.

7. Ganondorf can at least least combo Capt. Falcon and can ganoncide. Falcon's aerals<Ganondorf's aerials because both of them are pretty much the same, excpet Ganondorf has more power and prioirty over his, and can combo easer into them.

1. Remember that it's between both a good Ganondorf and a good Ike. Ike's attack speed on the moves that he'll actually be using is much faster than those used by Ganondorf. Ike's jabs, safe short hopped aerial approaches, and his back air are much faster, or at least safer, than anything that Ganon has.

2. Not so much by Ganon though. Ganon is so slow that unless he's already at the edge, Ike has little to worry about. Heck, even when he is at the edge, Ike's aether keeps him safe from a Ganon-stomp.

3. Jigglypuff never "runs", she floats gracefully in the air.

4. Jigglypuff won't be killing Ganon with her rest in this game. Instead she'll be using her forward air to ever so gently push Ganon further and further from the stage where his poor recovery will not be enough to save him.

5. Ganondorf above Jigglypuff? Jiggs is the most nimble character in the air, especially compared to Ganondorf. Nobody's safe underneath Ganon but Jigglypuff has the easiest time avoiding those situations.

6. If she's charging Rollout on the ground, no, it's not easy to grab it. It comes out so fast that the Ganon would be hard pressed to accurately predict when she'll do it (remember that she can happily hold it until she wants to). As for how effective Flame Choke would be against a Jigglypuff using Rollout to get back onto the stage, well, she definitely doesn't need it to recover at all so it's an option that, if it turns out to be a dangerous one, she can easily leave out.

Pound isn't very long but it's a relatively safe move if done correctly. Sing sucks, yes, but then again so does Warlock Punch. They're not going to be using those moves much, if at all, so they don't really affect the match-up (although, isn't Ganon, like, the easiest character to put to sleep?).

7. What combos are you talking about? The only one I know of with Ganon is Choke to jab/down tilt/etc.

You should organize this chart like Phanna's in melee. i know theres no tiers, but mabey from most to least x's or something like that.

I doubt that I ever will as that'd be too 'tier-ish' for a match-up chart. However, whether it goes the phanna route or not, it certainly couldn't until it's 'completed' to a stable degree (which isn't too far off, now that I take a look at it).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Olimar isn't just a side b. He has a far easier time approaching anyone in the game than Zelda does, seeing as he could move while spamming, use platforms better, has better range on the ground.... Actually, compared to at least 2/3 of the cast, his approach game is really good.

I still think zelda's defense > Olimar's approach, and considering he'll have to be the one approaching, I say that prevents olimar from being a hard counter to zelda in any way shape or form... or even a soft counter for that matter.

also, she can reflect his pikimin back onto him if he's determined to use that for his approach.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'm not saying that Olimar is a hard counter for Zelda. Or that I'd be determined to side b to approach either.... And you've probably never seen an Olimar that does approach well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm not saying that Olimar is a hard counter for Zelda. Or that I'd be determined to side b to approach either.... And you've probably never seen an Olimar that does approach well.

true that, most olimars I play against have realized his awsome defensive game, so when I force him to approach with din's fire, they have no idea what to do and end up drastically underestimating zelda. I know that can't be the case for upper level play, but I'm also sure that olimar doesn't counter zelda based on any evidence I've seen.

I never claimed that zelda countered olimar either, but when someone comes barging in claiming that olimar is a hard counter for zelda and that the OP better fix that, one doesn't feel the need to explain why zelda isn't a counter for olimar, only why olimar isn't a counter for zelda.

 

[darkNES386]

Sheik and Sonic seem to be a pretty even matchup. I'll have videos up later of Rock Man X and myself playing each other. Yes, we are only two people, but I noticed you don't have that box filled and we both feel like the greatest factor in each match is simply the choices we make ourselves.

Some other justification:
Sheik's speed can keep pressure on Sonic who usually the fighter in matches deciding when to close or make space with his opponents. Sheik's needles aren't that great of a projectile to give Sonic much trouble. Sonic's speed/gimping ability can give Sheik a hard time when recovering... especially if he catchs her trying to use her tether recovery, plus he may have a chance to stage spike her or attack her before she can even get back. They both seem to have equal priority depending on who gets their attacks out first and no approach seems to be unstoppable by either character. An aerial rush by Sheik is easily countered with uptilts by Sonic.


Edit:
On a random side note, I feel that we have too many checks/X's in this chart. I've been checking it for a while now and it just seems like we're trying to say that most characters have distinct advantages/disadvantages which really isn't something I've seen.

Wario is a tough matchup for Sonic, hands down. I don't know... I just feel like we should see more green on this chart.

I would like some SAMUS users to stepforward and record some matches with me to prove that Samus DOES NOT have an advantage over SONIC at the very least.

Izzy agrees with me:

This is the current listing:
Samus~, maybe +, haven't played this match-up, so I can only theorize
Sheik~, or +

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wario is a tough matchup for Sonic, hands down. I don't know... I just feel like we should see more green on this chart.

agreed... and I know afew places we could start with that <_<

olimar vs. sonic is even.

and I know metaknight is a beast, but I think he should have a few less blues than he does. can't say exactly which mathcups though.

I play Zelda/Sheik, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, ZSS, Link, Jigglypuff, Peach and Ness and of those this is all I can say:

he's definitely got the advantage on ZSS, Shiek, Sonic, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff peach and ness...

but my link actually matches up favourably against him. My zelda's at least equal and my charizard/squirtle is only slightly disavantaged.

I'm not sure what others think there... though I've heard DK is one of MK's hardest matchups.

 

[omegablackmage]

is there any chance that once this is completed we can begin to work on a numbered/color coated version that is more accurate?

 

[darkNES386]

is there any chance that once this is completed we can begin to work on a numbered/color coated version that is more accurate?

I second this. There's no reason you can start integrating a more detailed matchup scheme from now. Otherwise, I get the vibe that matchups are just neutral or extremes of Good and Bad when it really is not the case.

 

[Wind Owl]

Matchups should be numerical like this rather than like this.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I feel Marth is equal to or at a disadvantage to King Dedede. D3 has projectiles and a very good recovery. Being a larger target makes tipping easier for Marth, but D3 is still a heavy character. Plus the obvious, Dedede has chain grabbing vs. Marth.

My vote is D3 > Marth

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Matchups should be numerical like this rather than like this.

You mean like this?

 

[Wind Owl]

... Yes.

Spoiler

10chars

 

[kreechure]

wow, by the looks of this chart metaknight is weakness free

Nice job on the chart

 

[darkNES386]

There's no reason to start from scratch. For now make the following changes:

~ = 5, even
X = 2
Check = 8

From there adjustments to fine tune the really bad matchups can be made. Thanks to the OP for starting this matchup thread. Your efforts have been worth it.

 

[Gleam]

1. Remember that it's between both a good Ganondorf and a good Ike. Ike's attack speed on the moves that he'll actually be using is much faster than those used by Ganondorf. Ike's jabs, safe short hopped aerial approaches, and his back air are much faster, or at least safer, than anything that Ganon has.

The majority of Ike's attacks are slower than Ganondorfs, really the fastest ones I can think of are his AAA combo, Bair, and counter. Everything else not only has a slower start up lag, but also a slower ending lag.

2. Not so much by Ganon though. Ganon is so slow that unless he's already at the edge, Ike has little to worry about. Heck, even when he is at the edge, Ike's aether keeps him safe from a Ganon-stomp.

3. Jigglypuff never "runs", she floats gracefully in the air.

4. Jigglypuff won't be killing Ganon with her rest in this game. Instead she'll be using her forward air to ever so gently push Ganon further and further from the stage where his poor recovery will not be enough to save him.

5. Ganondorf above Jigglypuff? Jiggs is the most nimble character in the air, especially compared to Ganondorf. Nobody's safe underneath Ganon but Jigglypuff has the easiest time avoiding those situations.



6. If she's charging Rollout on the ground, no, it's not easy to grab it. It comes out so fast that the Ganon would be hard pressed to accurately predict when she'll do it (remember that she can happily hold it until she wants to). As for how effective Flame Choke would be against a Jigglypuff using Rollout to get back onto the stage, well, she definitely doesn't need it to recover at all so it's an option that, if it turns out to be a dangerous one, she can easily leave out.



Pound isn't very long but it's a relatively safe move if done correctly. Sing sucks, yes, but then again so does Warlock Punch. They're not going to be using those moves much, if at all, so they don't really affect the match-up (although, isn't Ganon, like, the easiest character to put to sleep?).


7. What combos are you talking about? The only one I know of with Ganon is Choke to jab/down tilt/etc.


I doubt that I ever will as that'd be too 'tier-ish' for a match-up chart. However, whether it goes the phanna route or not, it certainly couldn't until it's 'completed' to a stable degree (which isn't too far off, now that I take a look at it).

1.That's a problem though, if Ike riskes Aether while he's not close to the stage, he risks death. and quick draw is already gimped like crazy.

2.If ganondorf's aerials don't out range jigglypuffs Fair, I have a good feeling they'll out prioritorize it. Jigglypuff certainly isn't going to win this match by mere Fairing in the hopes that she can slowly get Ganondorf off the edge. With Jigglypuff being the lightest character in the game, a well placed F-tilt can easily send Puff off at 70%+

3.But Ganondorf easily beats Puff on the ground and his specials certainly beat her specials.

4.basically any of Ganondorfs attack will out prioritorize Rollout. Holding the Rollout basically just gives Ganondorf an easier time countering because now, he basically knows it's comming.

5.I don't know how "easy" it is for Ganondorf to be put to sleep. I'd assume Sing would reach larger characters more easily than smaller ones. The damage percentage is obviously affected, but I'm not sure if its different for other characters.

6.There is the Combo list on the board. Plus, its just well known that Capt. Falcon has a much harder time comboing than Ganondorf. Falcon is basically speed, and nothing else.

 

[Slayers8anFTW]

I'm gonna try to get the Zelda players on the boards to help out a little more with her matchups. I'll go into her character discussion and start a thread with a title referencing back to this one. Perhaps if we did for each character in the forum you could periodically check each to get detailed information for matchups for a specific character, instead of people throwing their 2 cents in about any random matchups. Good idea or no?

 

[Illussionary]

Donkey has the advantage over Metaknight. Even though he's big and bulky he has a far greater range then Metaknight. His tilts absolutely **** MK, Ftilt knocks MK out of Mach Tornado. Not mention how easy it is the to KO Metaknight as Dk. Dk's super armor frames in his Up+B is a great edge guard along with his Bair.

Face it Dk>MK

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm also pretty sure that both link and toon link are tough matchups for metaknight. I'm not sure if either is tough enough to be considered at an advantage, but my link is more proficient than my zelda at slaying metaknihgts and I'm pretty sure it's widely agreed that zelds vs. Metaknight is even.

 

[COMMOFDOOM]

the metagame isn't advanced enough to give numbers on a 1-10 scale. and even this advantage disadvantage chart is more of a guess. but whatever. it is beneficial to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of matchups even at the this point in the metagame. simply because having an idea of what your character can do that the opponents cannot is a good thing to know.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Here are my thoughts on the diddy vs zelda since the fight is still a ?. so diddy's banana's are annoying but while he is taking it out he can be hit by a din's plus the banana can be refelcted back at him. one of diddy's strongest points is his air game which zelda's up-smash ruins. Also since diddy has a hard time killing zelda's wieght is not a big deal. diddy's ground game can be dangerous since its fast but zelda's d-smash is fast and her reach and hitboxes out range diddy. off the edge diddy's up-B can be gimped by din's.

I know this seems very one sided but even through i think zelda has the advantage i don't think its a huge one if diddy gets good momentum he is hard to stop and once he has you traped with his banana game you will be in trouble and he will rack up dmg. Also if zelda is in the air diddy's speed and good air game might be able to juggle zelda up there or at the very least knock her around a little and rack up dmg (yes i know zelda's nair and fair/bair will out prioritize diddy's air game but diddy's speed might still help him get some hits in). He is also pretty small and is a character who when used right seems to me like he should always be moving so he will be pretty hard to sweet spot with a fair or bair.

But overall i give this one to zelda for her ground game racks diddy's air game which is to importent for him to lose and his banana game can be stoped by her

reposting this b/c no one else put in there 2 cents about it. As a zelda main who use to be a diddy main these are my thoughts anyone agree or disagree?

 

[matthewmilad]

A lot of these match-ups are still wrong. Wario is definitely equal match-up with guys like Marth, Olimar, ROB, and Zelda. Wario also has clear advantage on Snake....

Then Olimar should be shown as bad against Falco and Sheik.
There's also some other stuff that I'm sure I don't agree with, but I can't dispute those as well as the match-ups I've just pointed out.

Also Olimar needs to be labeled as Olimar and not Pikmin + Olimar.

 

[matthewmilad]

the metagame isn't advanced enough to give numbers on a 1-10 scale. and even this advantage disadvantage chart is more of a guess. but whatever. it is beneficial to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of matchups even at the this point in the metagame. simply because having an idea of what your character can do that the opponents cannot is a good thing to know.

Very true. But in a month or two when we finish this chart up, and have fixed some of the errors on it, I'd like to try doing Dark Blue, Light Blue, Light Red, and Dark Red check-marks.
Just because some of these advantages disadvantages are incredibly slight, and others are ridiculously huge. I will agree that numbers will not be appropriate for at least another year or so.

 

[Dark Sonic]

A lot of these match-ups are still wrong. Wario is definitely equal match-up with guys like Marth

Why?

Spoiler

ten characters

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

is there any chance that once this is completed we can begin to work on a numbered/color coated version that is more accurate?

Maybe if he could make this chart more accurate...

Because I won't trust anyone to come up with numbers until the chart is accurate.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

true dat.. I still champion the movement to put sonic V. Olimar equal... any advantage on either side is negligable.

and I'm pretty sure MK is = against link and disadvantaged by DK.

 

[DanGR]

I posted this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored, specifically by Sonic The Hedgedawg whom tried to refute my more recent arguement, though, very wrongly and nonfactually.(though maybe inadvertently)

can you put olimar as having an advantage over zelda? It's a VERY hard matchup for zelda in my opinion. If you want to rebuttal my arguement then please read the ENTIRE thread(2 pages only, no big deal) here's why:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161844

summary:it's clear that they're having a very difficult time against olimar. For me, this is a sinch. Basically, all i have to do is throw pikmen until she attacks them. From there, i can rush in and grab or something else.

as for Olimar being a hard counter for zelda, whoever said that. I'd have to say: no way. I don't honestly think zelda is a hard counter for olimar either, but she can outcamp him and her air game seems to beat his. he's hard to approach, but din's fire forces him to try to approach her. she might have some trouble getting yellows off of her, and reds aren't afraid of din's fire, but olimar, to my knowledge, has a bad approach game, and is reliant on stopping other from approaching. I'd say zelda is a soft counter to olimar.

you serious about that? As Rapid Assassin said, but less generously: Olimar outcamps zelda, this is...if they want to resort to that aspect of their game.(using din's and pikmen throw alone) Pikmen are less easily dodgable than din's is. Pikmen throw has considerably less lag, in fact, I don't think it has more than maybe 6 frames of lag unlike din's fire? Olimar can churn out much more pikmen than Zelda can spam din's. Din's is easily more dodgable and punishable if you pay attention to it the least bit. Her air game doesn't beat olimar's btw. All that stuff about Olimar approaching doesn't even matter if olimar can "outcamp" Zelda. If you want to camp v olimar, go ahead. The truth is that olimar's projectiles distract Zelda enough to get her off guard. Your argument, though, is completey absurd(/biased maybe?) about using laggy din's to distract olimar. Anyone can dodge din's through the air and hit Zelda with a jab. It's hard to believe you even use Zelda. Check out the zelda v olimar thread in your own Zelda subthread. At least they somewhat agree with me. If you're going to refute zelda<olimar, at least read my earlier posts and comment on those. I've given much more than sufficient evidence showing that Olimar is a hard counter v Zelda. The whole Zelda community, besides you, agrees with me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you serious about that? As Rapid Assassin said, but less generously: Olimar outcamps zelda, this is...if they want to resort to that aspect of their game.(using din's and pikmen throw alone) Pikmen are less easily dodgable than din's is. Pikmen throw has considerably less lag, in fact, I don't think it has more than maybe 6 frames of lag unlike din's fire? Olimar can churn out much more pikmen than Zelda can spam din's. Din's is easily more dodgable and punishable if you pay attention to it the least bit. Her air game doesn't beat olimar's btw. All that stuff about Olimar approaching doesn't even matter if olimar can "outcamp" Zelda. If you want to camp v olimar, go ahead. The truth is that olimar's projectiles distract Zelda enough to get her off guard. Your argument, though, is completey absurd(/biased maybe?) about using laggy din's to distract olimar. Anyone can dodge din's through the air and hit Zelda with a jab. It's hard to believe you even use Zelda. Check out the zelda v olimar thread in your own Zelda subthread. At least they somewhat agree with me. If you're going to refute zelda<olimar, at least read my earlier posts and comment on those. I've given much more than sufficient evidence showing that Olimar is a hard counter v Zelda. The whole Zelda community, besides you, agrees with me.

Pikmin toss has a very limited range... I say zelda outcamps because she shouldn't be within pikimin toss range unless she's close enough to connect with an "a" move.

the whole argument is cenetered on who's pressuring who to approach.


oh, and BTW, nice try on the "everyone but you agrees with me" after going to the thread you have linked, I find the only person in it who disagreed with me was... well... YOU. everyone else seemed to think that olimar was not a really huge challenge. he makes you play different, but he's got no advantage on zelda... and he's an incredibly easy edgeguard... especially with Din at your beck and call

 

[DanGR]

Pikmin toss has a very limited range... I say zelda outcamps because she shouldn't be within pikimin toss range unless she's close enough to connect with an "a" move.

the whole argument is cenetered on who's pressuring who to approach.

I'm actually very glad you brought that up. It means we're getting somewhere. First off, if you were to actually contribute to the Zelda v Olimar thread to get and give in some factual input on the matchup, you'd know that it's very difficult for Zelda.

To my point:
Pikmen throw has relatively high range. It's far enough to "camp" v Zelda w/o this "supposed" fear from a Zelda rushing in.(even if Din's had no afterlag) Here's an excerpt from the olimar forums (coming from a very respected member of the olimar forums) about "approaching". It basically outlines the way a good olimar player should "camp". It's not promoting the understood camping idea across the boards, but rather advocating a different, better way to approach with olimar's projectile specifically. It's what I do, and it's a big reason why I know Olimar>Zelda. This method applies not only to campers like tink and wolf, but also to Zelda and din's fire. Hopefully, this will sway your opinion away from Zelda and towards Olimar.

Olimar isn't a strong campy character in the projectile spam sense. Olimar is a campy character in the light that he plays strongest when sitting just outside of his or his opponent's range and attacking when they enter the space. Latch is NOT a good projectile when compared to the rest of the projectiles in the game. It has little to no priority on other projectiles, it has no knockback on a consistently reliable basis, its range isn't the most impressive, its damage is very preventable, you don't even need a disjointed hit box to connect with it in order to prevent any damage. Just think about latch, compared to almost any other projectile in the game it pales in comparison against a real life opponent.

But so often its called SOOO good! Why is that? Easy, latch is good against Other campy characters or playstyles. So people afraid of latch, who don't rush olimar out of fear or whatever, do suffer from pikmin barrage, and comment on it. So what does this mean for the competative less extreme player? Consider latch as not a projectile, but actually a very good Anti Projectile. In the simplest sense, many incoming projectiles are blocked by tossed/returning pikmin. That gives you more space and time to approach the correct spacing. Even better than a random disjointed hit box that can act as a wall and allow you to approach your projectile spamming opponents untouched, if you do land a latched pikmin, it puts your opponents at a crossroads. They must either continue their barrage, and eat damage from the latched pikmin, or they must stop their attack to do a different attack and deal with the flower incessantly head butting them. By forcing this situation, you can respond to their decision, if they take the damage sure keep up the latching, if they stop get setup, or if in range maybe you can even land an attack. Anyway i'm starting to ramble, i've made my point. Latch isn't a projectile but an anti projectile, camping doesn't just mean sitting on a side and throwing/shooting stuff, and Liverpool FC is the best team around.



-True