Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

responding to your quote: it doesn;t help your cause too much:

A) it essentially says that if you aren't afraid to rush through the barage, then pikmin is rather poor

B) Zelda's projectile is one of the select few that pikmin don't block.

 

[popsofctown]

Pikmin toss has a very limited range... I say zelda outcamps because she shouldn't be within pikimin toss range unless she's close enough to connect with an "a" move.

the whole argument is cenetered on who's pressuring who to approach.


oh, and BTW, nice try on the "everyone but you agrees with me" after going to the thread you have linked, I find the only person in it who disagreed with me was... well... YOU. everyone else seemed to think that olimar was not a really huge challenge. he makes you play different, but he's got no advantage on zelda... and he's an incredibly easy edgeguard... especially with Din at your beck and call

^^Din's doesn't help edge guard Olimar. He will air dodge the din's, and then steal the ledge because you were using din's and weren't edgehogging. It is possible to force one air dodge and then edge hog, but you're looking at a minimal amount of vertical drop there. ^^


The whole argument is, in fact, centered on who forces who to approach. I believe Zelda wins if she plays an Olimar who thinks that he doesn't have projectile superiority, but Olimar does have projectile superiority.

Pikmin toss does not have a limited range. It has a commanding range. When Olimar is jumping, he can throw pikmin across a third or maybe even half of FD. When he's not, the range of the move makes it a fully respectable ranged move, in that it has enough range to keep it from being answered with a melee attack (unlike, say, PK fire or Luigi's fireball, which doesn't have enough range to make that a certainty sometimes)

Someone said that Zelda needs to space correctly. Yes, Din's Fire does have a much larger range than pikmin throw, and yes, she starts to win if she is at maximum range.

But you can't do the spacing you need on any of the stages. If you try to spam Din's at maximum range, Olimar moves towards you (takes no damage or just some shield damage if he's good). He won't move close enough for you to dash attack him, he's moving just close enough to throw pikmin at you. Since Zelda fails at that spacing, she moves farther from Olimar. So then Olimar moves towards you again... and you move back again...

This can't happen an infinite number of times, it happens a finite number of times. Zelda runs out of land to walk on. And she's not some sprite-like fox that can dash all the way across to other side when she needs spacing, she has to move away from her opponents to space.
So, ultimately, Olimar will get the spacing he wants. Zelda is at the edge of the stage, she can fight a projectile war and lose, or she can approach with melee attacks and lose.

If Home Run Contest becomes unlockable and tourney legal, maybe that'll change, but i doubt that strongly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OknHBztBl0A

I personally like this olimar vs. zelda vid. Even though olimar ends up with the win, I think it clearly shows two competitors of about even skill and it also shows a fairly even matchup. Neither charcter seems to have a commanding advantage, though the advantage seems to swing to olimar once he has only reds and yellows left... even then, the match plays like a tug of war with niether charcter having projectile superiority, zelda having a superior approach and olimar having the better air game (unless he's stuck aove zelda in the air)

Din's fire works as free damage edgeguard attempts, and at the very least rack up olimar's damage when they connect.

olimar is too short for her SH fair to connect well, but zelda has any number of frightening options when she gets olimar correctly spaced.

maybe if olimar were more durable he might have an advantage in the matchup

I like this one more because it shows zelda owning... but I'll assume that's not the norm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLfKZjc1HVs&NR=1

 

[DanGR]

A few rhetorical questions and comments to Sonic The Hedgedawg:

-How can you argue that those two players have even skill?
-That olimar played offensively in VERY BAD situations.
-The Olimar couldn't avoid the din's fire well at all.
-What kind of "frightening options" does she have when spaced against a much more ranged olimar?
Zelda is just as durable as Olimar btw, if that means anything.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

I'm getting sick of arguing with you over this. No more. I'm not explaining anything else to you. You don't explain the reason behind your accusations very well, and you try to post a video of possibly/arguably the best Zelda player versus a not so experienced Olimar player,(even though the olimar player won-only shieldgrabbing zelda once!) and you continue to say AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that Zelda>Olimar. This is pointless, and it disgusts me.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

about that zelda olimar video it was dated 3/30/08 so i don't think it is really that its valid anymore

i am not going to comment on who has the advantage on who or if they are even b/c i have not fought any good olimars i just wanted to point out old video i bet both the players are much better then they were then.

Also since this argument is going nowhere i say we hold off on it till we (people) get more info on the fight the game is still young so this might be one of the matchups that need more time before one can say how they match up

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A few rhetorical questions and comments to Sonic The Hedgedawg:

-How can you argue that those two players have even skill?
-That olimar played offensively in VERY BAD situations.
-The Olimar couldn't avoid the din's fire well at all.
-What kind of "frightening options" does she have when spaced against a much more ranged olimar?
Zelda is just as durable as Olimar btw, if that means anything.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

I'm getting sick of arguing with you over this. No more. I'm not explaining anything else to you. You don't explain the reason behind your accusations very well, and you try to post a video of possibly/arguably the best Zelda player versus a not so experienced Olimar player,(even though the olimar player won-only shieldgrabbing zelda once!) and you continue to say AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that Zelda>Olimar. This is pointless, and it disgusts me.

you really... REALLY need to learn how to act. your post that you so pompously tried to shove down my throat earlier zccomplished nothing because the link you were so proud of was actually filled with people who disagreed with you. and I've always said the matchup was even... wierd... I guess you can't read.

 

[Tien2500]

I think Wario can be infinitely chain grabbed by Yoshi... is that taken into account in the chart?

 

[Browny]

Zelda gets snapped by olimar.

im pretty good with zelda, and i can beat my brothers G&W more often than not, so ill agree with you there, its closer to neutral than it is a disadvantage but his olimar is just a nightmare to deal with. i never stand a chance.

 

[Antinegative]

I'd like to submit that Bowser is at a disadvantage against Sonic. It really is almost impossible to keep the small bubble of personal space that Bowser needs to be effective considering Sonic's closing speed.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

All Bowser has to do is ftilt. gg

LMAO @ G&W being disadvantaged vs Olimar

dtilt kills pikmin
jab kills pikmin
dair out-prioritizes usmash
bair out-prioritizes everything

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd like to submit that Bowser is at a disadvantage against Sonic. It really is almost impossible to keep the small bubble of personal space that Bowser needs to be effective considering Sonic's closing speed.

I secondary as sonic and I've never had problebs with bowser.... sonic doesn't have problems with most huge, slow characters.

 

[popsofctown]

about that zelda olimar video it was dated 3/30/08 so i don't think it is really that its valid anymore

i am not going to comment on who has the advantage on who or if they are even b/c i have not fought any good olimars i just wanted to point out old video i bet both the players are much better then they were then.

Also since this argument is going nowhere i say we hold off on it till we (people) get more info on the fight the game is still young so this might be one of the matchups that need more time before one can say how they match up

I agree, at least in the sense that there are not enough people here experienced with the match up and ready to discuss it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree, at least in the sense that there are not enough people here experienced with the match up and ready to discuss it.

yeah... probably right... so mark it with either ~ or ? because we don't yet know

 

[Gimpyfish62]

oh no it's going to be phanna's matchup chart all over again *sigh*

 

[MysticKenji]

Lucario beats Squirtle.

Fix that plz.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Going to have to explain it you know >_>.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh no it's going to be phanna's matchup chart all over again *sigh*

as long as it can be considered accurate, a matchup chart is a GOOD thing.

 

[TehBo49]

For the last time, change Pikachu vs Charizard to a check! Pikachu has speed, chaingrabs, edgeguarding, & thunder jolt spam. All Charizard has on Pika is range (as does most of the roster).

Also, change Pikachu vs Olimar to either even or a check because Pika has a slight advantage on Olimar. Wolf is probably even, too. So is Zelda.

And for the missing Pikachu matchups, Falco is a check & Toon Link is even.

 

[Browny]

im quite sure Lucario should be checked against squirtle and shiek. shieks extreme weakness in the KO department hurts her too much, Luacrio lives longer and KO's considerably eariler. squirtle, because his strength is his aerial game. Lucarios is better, squirtles loses too many of his advantages against anyone who can beat him in the air.

both of them cant combo lucario due to his floatiness and d-air, taking that thing on is rarely worth the risk, and without any reflector or high priority move aura sphere overpowers everything.

 

[choknater]

as long as it can be considered accurate, a matchup chart is a GOOD thing.

Correct.

However, if people interpret this chart as a be-all end-all of matchup authorities, and reference it to stake claims, then that's where it becomes a problem.

A 39x39 matchup chart is never going to be perfect, and counter characters can always be beaten by counter strategies.

I advise IvanEva or whoever else adopts this chart in the future to please be liberal about community-assisted changes... for the entire duration of brawl's existence as a competitive game.

 

[rabbt]

Bowser counters Lucario. Grab release sideb = win

 

[Juggalo]

So, since Question marks are "In dispute"s, meaning that there are good reasons for it to be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on how people have argued it throughout the thread, how is someone to go about getting a solid enough argument to getting it changed.

Once this chart is finally complete, I figure you're going to try to filter out as many disputed matchups as possible. Or, with people constantly discovering new and improved ways to use their characters, more and more question marks will appear :/

Good luck with the thread. Thats all I've gotta say.

 

[Shark Week]

im quite sure Lucario should be checked against squirtle and shiek. shieks extreme weakness in the KO department hurts her too much, Luacrio lives longer and KO's considerably eariler. squirtle, because his strength is his aerial game. Lucarios is better, squirtles loses too many of his advantages against anyone who can beat him in the air.

both of them cant combo lucario due to his floatiness and d-air, taking that thing on is rarely worth the risk, and without any reflector or high priority move aura sphere overpowers everything.

way to completely oversimplify squirtle and only point out lucario's good points, lucario main!

 

[ShadowLink84]

way to completely oversimplify squirtle and only point out lucario's good points, lucario main!

Wise man speaks to counter argument, not critique it.

 

[Raiko]

For real, can anyone explain me why Game and Watch is on the upper hand agaisnt Dedede? That just doesnt make sense for me.

 

[Sliq]

I believe firmly that Ganon has the advantage on Cpt. Falcon.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

My suggestions:
CF<Charizard
GW<DK
Kirby~Snake

 

[Raiko]

Game and Watch has a disadvantage against Dedede.

Ok, lets talk about different situations.

Dedede range attacks are better than G&W range attacks, meaning Game and Watch is forced to go next to Dedede.

-Dedede isnt gimpable by Down Throw to Smash stuff
-If Game and Watch stays away, he eats ranged attacks, if he tries to approach, Dedede may stop his aerial attempts with a mere F Tilt, or Up Tilt.
-Yeah, a non-used up tilt kills G&W next to 90%, and it's not hard to hit it when G&W has to constantly get close to Dedede by aerial ways.
-G&W has annoying lag in some aerials moves (ex: F Air), but it's not just that, if a Dedede shield it, its fast enough for him to Down Smash and completely own G&W.
-Dedede has the grabbing advantage against G&W
-G&W can't gimp Dedede's recovery
-Since G&W is forced to get close to Dedede, occasionally G&W will be hit by a Front Smash, of course it is slow, but it happens when you have to constantly hit a target that uses range, grabs you easily, and has moves with awesome priority.
-Dedede F air is really good against G&W recovery
-G&W ground game isn't match for Dedede's ground game

 

[darkNES386]

A smart Lucario gives sonic a run for his money. I hate to admit it, but I find this matchup pretty difficult. I know two solid Lucario users who both force me to pull out some crazy spin-dash shield cancels and all other sorts of mind games to mess them up. All they need to do is short up into a dAir and that alone makes life hard for Sonic. Just about everything out prioritizes him. This matchup is easily harder than Toon Link.

To quote Blueterrorist in the sonic matchup thread:

Opinion: If you think Sonic has an advantage here, let me say this YOU HAVE NOT FOUGHT A GOOD LUCARIO. The thing that always puts you in danger is that ability of his. Sonic will not be killing Lucario at low percentages normally since Lucario is a bit on the heavy side. Gimping him helps to kill him at a low percent due to his upb not damaging a thing. Yeah racking up damage is good and all, but it doesn't mean anything to Lucario especially when you you have a hard time killing someone. To win this, mindgames are an absolute must. You must be very accurate when punishing him with said kill move. You must capitalize on every mistake he does. Don't get all aggressive, they will be expecting that. Instead you must have a great deal of patience in order to get your hits in. I offered good solutions, but it doesn't change the fact that you will definately have a hard time against good Lucario players. At best if you keep losing to him with Sonic, there's no shame to pick another character best suited for the matchup. It will be easier if you know Lucario's weaknesses but it's still hard since Sonic can't effectively capitalize on them like most characters can.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Game and Watch has a disadvantage against Dedede.

Erm, no. Not at all. Check the Dedede guide. It's listing G&W as a very hard matchup. Ok? Now go to the G&W section, and look at Omega's guide. It lists the advantages we have against D3.

In retrospect, it is arguable, but I still stand by that G&W has an advantage when battling a dedede of similar skill.

-Dedede isnt gimpable by Down Throw to Smash stuff

This is true, but it doesn't give G&W a disadvantage because he doesn't rely on only this out of his grab. I'll explain a little bit about this later down. It doesnt matter that Dthrow -> Dsmash doesnt work here.

-If Game and Watch stays away, he eats ranged attacks, if he tries to approach, Dedede may stop his aerial attempts with a mere F Tilt, or Up Tilt.

Wrong wrong wrong.
G&W's Dtilt reduces Dedede's projectile game to nothing. The only thing to disrupt his dtilting is a rare gordo, and that is easily telegraphed and then perfect shielded. OH, and neat little tidbit: when you get a Waddle Doo, thats a free bucket load. That out ranges you and kills dedede at lol%. You don't want that, now do you?

So if anything, G&W forces a stalemate, where he doesn't have to approach. And even if he does, there's no problem there. G&W's approaches rock. Your Ftilt is a fairly slow compared to most of G&W's attacks. He forces it to be used, shields, and punishes. Thats how small characters generally beat people who outrange them, by punishing. Utilt doesn't beat his key, I don't think.

And Dedede is just juggle bait once a hit has been landed. He's got nothing quick enough to disrupt G&W's flow.

-Yeah, a non-used up tilt kills G&W next to 90%, and it's not hard to hit it when G&W has to constantly get close to Dedede by aerial ways.

A non used? But didnt you just listed that as a move to shield attacks from G&W? It's going to be diminished, obviously, if you've made hits with it. Again, I believer Dair beats it anyways.

Oh, and is this including DI? Probably not.

-G&W has annoying lag in some aerials moves (ex: F Air), but it's not just that, if a Dedede shield it, its fast enough for him to Down Smash and completely own G&W.

Sorry, but G&W's aerials are surprisingly quick; your example pretty much included the only laggy move he uses. It has landing lag, but the turtle will normally see much more use. D3's Dsmash is slow, and therefore, punishable.

Sorry.

-Dedede has the grabbing advantage against G&W

Again, wrong.

He has the range (****ing big range on grabs), but not much to do out of those.

Dedede is renowned for his chaingrabs. G&W, however, is unaffected by his chaingrabs, even against a wall. He can also get away from any of your options of things to do after a Dthrow if the G&W does it right. Dash attack? Roll. Fsmash? Roll. Ftilt? Roll. It requires prediction, but really not so difficult in practice.

Oh, and what I mentioned about G&W having some grab tricks up his sleeve...

Dedede is among the easiest characters in the game to perform a tech chase on (Definitely up there with Pit and Ganny). His rolls are slow, short, and, same with his get up attack, telegraphed. Teching this is about the only thing dedede can do to stop from getting pseudo-chaingrabbed.

Even if they don't tech chase you, any aerial after a Dthrow hurts and sets you up for more pain.

-G&W can't gimp Dedede's recovery

Actually, G&W has a very easy time chasing dedede off the cliff. Fair -> Fair -> Fair is easy (maybe add a few if he's at lower percents) and G&W can easily get back to the stage with his up B. Dedede is a big punching bag when his feet arent touching the ground. He certainly isn't a slouch in the air, but G&W is very hard to deal with up close or when you're attempting to recover.

-Since G&W is forced to get close to Dedede, occasionally G&W will be hit by a Front Smash, of course it is slow, but it happens when you have to constantly hit a target that uses range, grabs you easily, and has moves with awesome priority.

hahahahahaha
I dont know anybody to get hit with a Fsmash from dedede outside of lag.

-Dedede F air is really good against G&W recovery

G&W's recovery is amazing, how exactly do you shut it down with your Fair? We can drop down and sweetspot the ledge easily.

Just explain it to me. Maybe you're right, but I've never fought a D3 to ever mess with my recovery. I've been chased off with Bair's, but never hit with a Fair while recovering.

-G&W ground game isn't match for Dedede's ground game

Arguable, but I agree for the most part. Range is good, but you also have a lot of lag. Oil Panic outranges you anyways. But yeah.
G&W's air game compensates.



In the air a lot of hits are going to be traded. It isn't onesided in G&W.
Dedede's range is pretty hard to deal with.
His grab range is pretty big, but you can't do much out of it.
His projectiles do nothing but potentially help G&W get a huge boost.

A good dedede is pretty hard, but I think that G&W has the slight advantage. I strongly disagree that he's disadvantaged, but he's by no means a solid counter.

So I've just been playing extreme examples against your own, but it's pretty close, and I recognize that.

But it isn't neutral.

 

[Juggalo]

I love the long-*ss replies to completely destroy somebody's line of thinking. They're what makes this chart even possible, the competent players.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dks good vs. metaknight.

also, ripples a little humble on the dk thread, dk's matchups are not as bad as he says

 

[Raiko]

Erm, no. Not at all. Check the Dedede guide. It's listing G&W as a very hard matchup. Ok? Now go to the G&W section, and look at Omega's guide. It lists the advantages we have against D3.

In retrospect, it is arguable, but I still stand by that G&W has an advantage when battling a dedede of similar skill.



This is true, but it doesn't give G&W a disadvantage because he doesn't rely on only this out of his grab. I'll explain a little bit about this later down. It doesnt matter that Dthrow -> Dsmash doesnt work here.



Wrong wrong wrong.
G&W's Dtilt reduces Dedede's projectile game to nothing. The only thing to disrupt his dtilting is a rare gordo, and that is easily telegraphed and then perfect shielded. OH, and neat little tidbit: when you get a Waddle Doo, thats a free bucket load. That out ranges you and kills dedede at lol%. You don't want that, now do you?

So if anything, G&W forces a stalemate, where he doesn't have to approach. And even if he does, there's no problem there. G&W's approaches rock. Your Ftilt is a fairly slow compared to most of G&W's attacks. He forces it to be used, shields, and punishes. Thats how small characters generally beat people who outrange them, by punishing. Utilt doesn't beat his key, I don't think.

And Dedede is just juggle bait once a hit has been landed. He's got nothing quick enough to disrupt G&W's flow.



A non used? But didnt you just listed that as a move to shield attacks from G&W? It's going to be diminished, obviously, if you've made hits with it. Again, I believer Dair beats it anyways.

Oh, and is this including DI? Probably not.



Sorry, but G&W's aerials are surprisingly quick; your example pretty much included the only laggy move he uses. It has landing lag, but the turtle will normally see much more use. D3's Dsmash is slow, and therefore, punishable.

Sorry.



Again, wrong.

He has the range (****ing big range on grabs), but not much to do out of those.

Dedede is renowned for his chaingrabs. G&W, however, is unaffected by his chaingrabs, even against a wall. He can also get away from any of your options of things to do after a Dthrow if the G&W does it right. Dash attack? Roll. Fsmash? Roll. Ftilt? Roll. It requires prediction, but really not so difficult in practice.

Oh, and what I mentioned about G&W having some grab tricks up his sleeve...

Dedede is among the easiest characters in the game to perform a tech chase on (Definitely up there with Pit and Ganny). His rolls are slow, short, and, same with his get up attack, telegraphed. Teching this is about the only thing dedede can do to stop from getting pseudo-chaingrabbed.

Even if they don't tech chase you, any aerial after a Dthrow hurts and sets you up for more pain.



Actually, G&W has a very easy time chasing dedede off the cliff. Fair -> Fair -> Fair is easy (maybe add a few if he's at lower percents) and G&W can easily get back to the stage with his up B. Dedede is a big punching bag when his feet arent touching the ground. He certainly isn't a slouch in the air, but G&W is very hard to deal with up close or when you're attempting to recover.



hahahahahaha
I dont know anybody to get hit with a Fsmash from dedede outside of lag.



G&W's recovery is amazing, how exactly do you shut it down with your Fair? We can drop down and sweetspot the ledge easily.

Just explain it to me. Maybe you're right, but I've never fought a D3 to ever mess with my recovery. I've been chased off with Bair's, but never hit with a Fair while recovering.



Arguable, but I agree for the most part. Range is good, but you also have a lot of lag. Oil Panic outranges you anyways. But yeah.
G&W's air game compensates.



In the air a lot of hits are going to be traded. It isn't onesided in G&W.
Dedede's range is pretty hard to deal with.
His grab range is pretty big, but you can't do much out of it.
His projectiles do nothing but potentially help G&W get a huge boost.

A good dedede is pretty hard, but I think that G&W has the slight advantage. I strongly disagree that he's disadvantaged, but he's by no means a solid counter.

So I've just been playing extreme examples against your own, but it's pretty close, and I recognize that.

But it isn't neutral.

Then at least make him a neutral, right? Maybe I'm really fighting extremes, but, then it's a fair matchup.

And a timed Dedede Up Tilt really beats Game and Watch Dair. About the non used thing, it means that after Dedede dies, it is really easy to take Game and Watch with him, since Game and Watch has to approach via air (Up Tilt is fast, kill at fair %, good range...)
And shielding Dedede F tilt is not that simple, the duration of the move, range, and knockback, still makes a really hard time for G&W.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I don't even main DK (I occasionally use him as the second banana to my G&W) and I see Donkey Kong as having an advantageous matchup vs Metaknight.

Just noticed the Big Check, Big X thing you added. I'll look through and see what I feel to be the extreme matchups for G&W. He isn't likely to see a big disadvantage, though. Olimars the closest bet, and even then he doesnt shut down G&W completely. Just check the Projectile defense thread in Game and Watch's section; the pikmin toss is useless :D

So I'll add my thoughts on the big/small advantages.

edit: posted and didnt see yours!

How does Turtle fit in to this? If you jump over the Ftilt, cant you turtle dedede without being Utilt? That seems like the obvious choice. Shield Poking is easy on bigger targets, it causes a lot of pressure, and has the superior range when it comes down to Utilt vs Turtle.

It's still easy to punish the Ftilt, even if it's just pulling back quickly out of its range and then reacting accordingly. Im pretty sure a normal shield will shut down the Ftilt. Power shielding does that even better.

and here's the bit on dedede from the G&W guide.

Dedede:
A very common character to see in tournaments, and lucky for gw players, this is one of his worst matchups. He can't chaingrab you, which is a large part of how he wins or at the very least racks up a lot of damage, all the grab does is toss you on the ground which you can roll out of. Make sure you aren't predictable in your rolling and you'll find you won't take too much damage from his grab combos. The range you have in the air vs him can be a lot of trade offs so watch out. When he's recovering you need to decide whether he's looking to grab the edge or land on the stage. If you can hog him in time, do that for a quick kill obviously, but if he's going above the stage do a neutral air under him and it'll pop him out of his up b, which you can follow up into an up b to send him back out. Continue this pattern for a while and it will rack up a lot of damage/anger the dedede. Other than those tips watch out for the range on his smashes and tilts and make sure you bucked the waddle doo's beam attack for free buckets.

I still feel it's an advantage for G&W, and you'll have to argue it to change my mind. Why are they equal in a fight?

With the introduction of the small check/big check on the front page of this, I think dedede stays firmly in small advantage.

 

[Raiko]

I don't even main DK (I occasionally use him as the second banana to my G&W) and I see Donkey Kong as having an advantageous matchup vs Metaknight.

Just noticed the Big Check, Big X thing you added. I'll look through and see what I feel to be the extreme matchups for G&W. He isn't likely to see a big disadvantage, though. Olimars the closest bet, and even then he doesnt shut down G&W completely. Just check the Projectile defense thread in Game and Watch's section; the pikmin toss is useless :D

So I'll add my thoughts on the big/small advantages.

edit: posted and didnt see yours!

How does Turtle fit in to this? If you jump over the Ftilt, cant you turtle dedede without being Utilt? That seems like the obvious choice. Shield Poking is easy on bigger targets, it causes a lot of pressure, and has the superior range when it comes down to Utilt vs Turtle.

It's still easy to punish the Ftilt, even if it's just pulling back quickly out of its range and then reacting accordingly. Im pretty sure a normal shield will shut down the Ftilt. Power shielding does that even better.

and here's the bit on dedede from the G&W guide.



I still feel it's an advantage for G&W, and you'll have to argue it to change my mind. Why are they equal in a fight?

With the introduction of the small check/big check on the front page of this, I think dedede stays firmly in small advantage.

From my personal experience, F Tilt beats Turtle (it looks crazy but... Thats what I remember). Of course, it deppends on timing and angle, meaning Turtle will beat F Tilt as well. But relying on one move to approach = low damage, and it's not really easy for G&W to apply Smashes on Dedede, since his ground game is really inferior to Dedede. And Dedede doesn't die on "fair" %. Dedede projectile still helps when G&W is in the air, G&W won't be using D tilt everytime.

:O

I don't think G&W has enough against Dedede for an advantage match-up. I think all arguments are exposed, only pratical experiences would show the truth... xD

 

[Gleam]

Seriously, Ganondorf has an advantage, if not large one over Capt. Falcon. In fact, I would go as far as to say everyone has an advantage over Capt. Falcon, whether it be large or small. Falcon's literally become a laughingstock, making Mewtwo and Pichu look good.

I also feel sure that Ganondorf has an advantge over Jigglypuff, Yoshi, and I feel that at the very least now, Ganondorf should be neutral to Sonic. Even thought I do feel he has the advantage.

 

[DanGR]

I'm going to say anything about my question or argue anything b/c I haven't played any good players that play these characters, but could someone explain to me why charizard and ivysaur aren't completely destroyed by olimar? I can understand falco and fox being neutral, but the two slow pokemon? I don't really understand. Charizard seems like he'd lose simply because he's big(easy target for pikmen thow and grab, and pretty easily avoidable) Ivysaur has slow aerials, as well as a bad tether(just like olimar) If you argue the leaf cutting through pikmen is what makes him a counter, that's not the only thing that makes olimar good.(pikmen throw=best move=lie)

-thanks!

 

[Chaudgobay]

falco with big advantage vs wolf and with small advanteg with ike ??
this chart is a joke...

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Because only two incorrect matchups make this list bad. And you didn;t even care to explain.


Get out of here troll.

 

[Browny]

if marth has such a big check over MK, how come you almost never see marth winning any tournaments? its not as if every single time marth goes down its to a snake user

also i notice in a short time suddenly all of sonics disputed matchups have gone to disadvantage, with no posts whatsoever explaining this