Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[omegablackmage]

lol at djbrown, i think maybe your the one who actually doesn't know what he's talking about;

kirby: rock and hammers are both incredibly slow, i agree that they are good kill moves strength wise, but they are so hard to hit with that i wouldn't be to worried about them. The rock has this incredibly obvious start up time that screams get the f out of the way. Hammer pretty much have to be performed in the air, and i've seen no combos that will help you land this attack. Kirby has no range on any of his attacks, can't spam the up b, and isn't strong enough. Oh and 9 hammer will kill way earlier than kirby ever will if you want to play that game.

lucario: yes i agree that lucario has a lot of range, except that it all gets overshadowed by gw's. The only moves that could consistently outrange gw would be fsmash and ftilt, and you'll be even hardpressed to pull that off. Double team only kills gw at 100 when lucario is over 100, so don't make the move sound that amazing. Also the upair is a good move, except the only time your going to be testing it vs gw is against his key, where you will lose 100% of the time.

wario: yes wario is easy to edgeguard, maybe you don't know what your doing against him. Not the easiest to edge guard but also not hard at all. First off they're going to save their double jump pretty likely. Then they will probably bike, assuming they haven't left it on the stage. This gives them a one tracked recovery that is pretty easy to predict where they're going to go. The bike lifts slightly then drops, they HAVE to jump out of this so you know to stay slightly above them and prep a fair to knock them back out. Beyond this they can double jump to get to the ledge assuming they went too low for you. If this is the case you should try to intercept them but if they are going to try to up b to the ledge watch their spacing. If they are too close to the ledge, dtilt them back out because they can't auto sweetspot. If they have their spacing right, quick hug for an easy hog. The wario player could also go very high with the bike which is entirely possible in which case you up air spam or just wait for the air dodge to punish them, works well on snake, works well on wario too. Please, enlighten me as to where i made a mistake in this assessment.

JJ:

i agree that some of those moves will kill gw, notably the stronger ones, but i feel as though the weaker moves listed, mostly the aerials and such will probably only kill when lucario is at high damage, at which time gw will probably play a very annoying spacing game to keep lucario away when its obvious he'll be going for a kill. Also if a lucario spams the aura sphere after the bucket is full its pretty easy to cancel the attack, or just use the bucket, it has absurd range and priority, if they are spamming so much it won't take long to fill it again.

nagace:

my apologies when i said up air i was talking about lucario, i believe that zelda's will outprioritize gw's key because the range is so large.


I will concede in saying that lucario doesn't deserve a large check, but i will say that the matchup is a 7:3 advantage for gw. Its very close but you guys have brought up good arguments.

 

[Kiwikomix]

As a Kirby main, I find it ridiculous to even consider that he has a good matchup against G-Dub. At the same skill level I find that I can beat some GWs, but it's always an uphill battle. Definitely in G-Dub's favor, though not a big check.

 

[omegablackmage]

for what reasons do you feel that it isn't a big check?

 

[Juggalo]

I feel that the Wolf/Mario slot should be neutral. If anyone would wish to discuss or debate, I'm willing to elaborate to hold up my argument, but I'll keep this post shorter than the last 2 posts I made about proving/disproving a spot on the chart. Here it goes:

Wolf is easy to Fludd because he either recovers with his predictable-directioned upB or his always-in-one-direction sideB, but if Mario misplaces his airdodge or cape (or Wolf maneuvers himself to make mario misplace it) while he's trying to recover Wolf can easily Wolf wall him off the edge.
Both characters can gimp each others' recovery slightly

Both characters have reliable useful projectiles, reflectors with special properties (dodge frames and turning people), predictable recoveries.

Wolf weighs a bit more than Mario and has a longer forward smash, but Mario's fsmash has a disjointed hitbox sweetspot with similar power. (I'm not sure which is stronger)

 

[matthewmilad]

A lot of these match-ups are sooooo off it's not even funny. PLEASE use the Wario Match-Up thread for Wario's Match-ups:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142975&highlight=chain+grab+list

 

[IvanEva]

could someone explain to me why charizard and ivysaur aren't completely destroyed by olimar?

It was brought up a while ago in the thread so I can be totally off but I think it had to do with Charizard's flame and forward air being able to push Olimar away easily... or something... I really can't think of anything... So, everybody cool with Olimar having the advantage here? I really can't see it being even between the monsters and Olimar anymore.

I honestly think that Kirby is at least equal if not at an advantage verses snake.

The big difference is how easily they can kill each other. Snake's tilts hurt Kirby way more than his wall of pain can hurt Snake.

Lucas should have big checks on Zelda and Pikachu at least, if not Lucario and even Wolf.

Pikachu I agree with, but I'm no longer sure on the Zelda one so I'll hold off on making it a large advantage for now. Her smashes and tilts are good enough that she doesn't NEED to use Din's Fire anymore than Lucas needs to use PK Fire on her, which she can reflect just as easy as he can absorb. The advantage is still his but I just don't feel that it's a large enough one.

Remember that a large advantage is like 9/1 or 8/2. It's saying that a character DESTROYS the other. I'm not convinced that that's the case with Zelda (and definitely not Lucario or Wolf).

I'm also going to throw my support in a Ness check vs. Lucas, if only because of how necessary PK fire is for lucas's game and how easily magneted it is if Ness spaces himself well against him. Projectiles aren't as important for Ness, and it gives his magnet that much more of an edge. Also, stronger grabs and a stronger air game throw the advantage in his favor IMO.

And I'd dispute lucas as an X against metaknight, if anyone's interested in rehashing that. PK fire hardcounters tornado and to an extent dash approaches; up smash hardcounters gliding and dropping approaches. Metaknight is one of the few characters against whom lucas can almost indiscriminately spam upsmash upwards of 50% and get consistent kills.

Lucas' ground game beats Ness and he has an easier time magneting Ness' recovery thunder than Ness does Lucas'. It comes down to a battle of each character trying to pull the other into his comfort zone (Ness in the air, Lucas on the ground).

Lucas' up smash can't be spammed. No, it can't. Ever. Good god, especially against Metaknight. He will hurt you badly when you (and you certainly will) miss one.

I subit that shiek Vs. Ike be moved to BIG advantage. ike just can't get a move out fast enough.

also, maybe squirtle vs. ike on the account of how esily a water gun can gimp.

Ike's short-hopped forward/neutral air to jab is effective at keeping Sheik semi-away, at least from what I've seen. Anybody else on this one? I just don't feel that it's a BIG advantage.

Ike has the advantage on Squirtle since tiny Squirtle has a lot of trouble getting past Ike's gigantic sword. Water gun can't gimp easily. Getting Ike in that position is going to be really tough for Squirtle.

i am a little unsure about lucas having a big check on zelda

As am I now.

The chart is really ugly and cluttered, you may want to change the icons stating how the matchup is for the character or something

I agree, however, I don't really feel up to making new icons just yet (not that it'd be the hardest thing to do...). If you (or anybody else) make them, post them and I'll probably use them.

As a Kirby main, I find it ridiculous to even consider that he has a good matchup against G-Dub. At the same skill level I find that I can beat some GWs, but it's always an uphill battle. Definitely in G-Dub's favor, though not a big check.

"G-Dub"? Where did that come from?

I'm also a bit uneasy about making it large but I can see Kirby having a tough time landing a solid smash hit on Game and Watch (who will basically land any attack he sticks out).

 

[CorruptFate]

With so many people on the chart it can be hard to keep track of who you are looking at. I think you should going from top to bottom put each guy in a different color more then white, gray, white, gray, white, black bar but do something like: white, pink, light blue, yellow, gray, black bar. just my take great chart I have heard it from others too that it can be hard to read.

 

[ƒox]

Just looking at the chart for Fox, it really depends if you're playing offensive or defensive, like against Ike, if you play offensive no doubt Ike is just going to be charging up fa.

 

[philbobjoe]

I just do not see how Lucas destroys Pikachu. If you look at the Lucas Match-up thread, it says that Lucas only has a 6-4 advantage over Pikachu, and that is not even close to a big check.

 

[DanGR]

It was brought up a while ago in the thread so I can be totally off but I think it had to do with Charizard's flame and forward air being able to push Olimar away easily... or something... I really can't think of anything... So, everybody cool with Olimar having the advantage here? I really can't see it being even between the monsters and Olimar anymore.

It's alright if you don't feel comfortable putting olimar>charizard+ivysaur. I don't mind. I was just wondering, though it does confuse me quite a bit. If charizard is neutral with olimar,(i don't think he is...) why isn't bowser? To me, it's quite simple. They're big and slow, and olimar capitalizes on those qualities. You'll notice Olimar has a much harder time v the small characters mainly b/c they're harder to grab b/c they're so small and quick. just a thought.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i am going to repost this again since i have yet to get any feedback on it

Here are my thoughts on the diddy vs zelda since the fight is still a ?. so diddy's banana's are annoying but while he is taking it out he can be hit by a din's plus the banana can be refelcted back at him. one of diddy's strongest points is his air game which zelda's up-smash ruins. Also since diddy has a hard time killing zelda's wieght is not a big deal. diddy's ground game can be dangerous since its fast but zelda's d-smash is fast and her reach and hitboxes out range diddy. off the edge diddy's up-B can be gimped by din's.

I know this seems very one sided but even through i think zelda has the advantage i don't think its a huge one if diddy gets good momentum he is hard to stop and once he has you traped with his banana game you will be in trouble and he will rack up dmg. Also if zelda is in the air diddy's speed and good air game might be able to juggle zelda up there or at the very least knock her around a little and rack up dmg (yes i know zelda's nair and fair/bair will out prioritize diddy's air game but diddy's speed might still help him get some hits in). He is also pretty small and is a character who when used right seems to me like he should always be moving so he will be pretty hard to sweet spot with a fair or bair.

But overall i give this one to zelda for her ground game racks diddy's air game which is to importent for him to lose and his banana game can be stoped by her

 

[Gleam]

How in the world does Ganondorf have a huge disatvantage against Wario? I can understand a normal disatvange, but a large one, no.

The Wario board didn't even bother giving worth crap about how Ganon would do against Wario Consisting of 9-1 advantage to Wario with a single, simplistic commentary of "Yea" No reason, nothing to back it up.

At least the Ganon board has enough sense to say how Ganondorf has a distavange, but doesn't go around saying its near impossible for Ganon to beat Wario.
---

And once again, on the Ganon rant, I must insist that Ganon has an advantage over Jigglypuff, Sonic, and Yoshi.

Heck, on both the Ganon and Puff Board, there doen't seem to be much on either of the characters. I believe there's one thing on the Ganon board where Ganondorf has a disatvantage. On the Jigglypuff board, one thing where Jigglypuff has the disatvantage. If anything, it should be neutral until a good decision from each board can be found.

Sonic is like Jigglypuff. We have the Ganondorf board saying that Sonic is at the distavantage (though admitting that Sonic could cause some trouble) On the Sonic board we have Ganondorf at the disatvantage. Once again, I say neutral until things can truly be decided out.

I say Ganondorf has the advantage over Yoshi, or at least Neutral, is that though Yoshi has a pretty good air game, Ganondorf beats him on the ground. (Kind of the same reason I put for Jigglypuff awhile ago) Puff's air game beats Ganon's air game, but Ganon's ground game beats Puff's ground game.

Yoshi also has a lack of good knockback. His Bair, considered one of the best of Yoshi's moves has literally no knockback (At least from what I've seen) and can be DIed out of easily. I can only assume that its used in combos because seperately, I don't see it as much use. His specials suffer to Ganondorf, mainly his B-forward. Like Puff's rollout, Ganon can easily counter it with a Flame choke. Egg throw has little knockback, but more in anycase, has to be aimed and stuff. Unlike Pit's arrows which can be spammed endlessly.

Yoshi's regular B move, well, unless I've missed out on some neat technique with it, is only going to be good for racking up some damage while Ganon's in the egg. If anything, the most dangerous special Ganon will have to watch out for is Down B (Which packs quite a whollop)

I've mentioned it before, Ganondorf has more Power, Reach, and priority. Yoshi has speed, and unlike Sonic, whose a flaming ball of bluring blueness, attacking with crazy speed. Yoshi's speed is really only normal. Unlike Sonic also, I haven't really seen what Yoshi can do to "gimp" Ganondorf's recovery. Something that apparently seems to put Sonic above Ganon.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda definitey beats diddy I agree. She beats, I think, all characters which rely exclusively on their air game.


other points:
I agree that the characters in the middle of the chart can be hard to read, I like the different colours idea.

I stil say Sonic Vs. Olimar is even, or at least darn close to even

however, Luigi and Kirby seem particularly bad for sonic, Luigi moreso. I think that might go to a big "X" matchup instead of a tiny "x"

 

[Kiwikomix]

"G-Dub"? Where did that come from?

I dunno, I've been saying it for a while.

for what reasons do you feel that it isn't a big check?

Kirby's hammer attack may be slow, but that doesn't mean it doesn't ever hit. Since G-Dub is no longer as light as he was in Melee, Kirby has several grab combos and such that he can use against him. Besides, his aerial hammer outreaches and outprioritizes GW's fair, bair, and f-smash. G-Dub's recovery has gotten better but it still doesn't help him if Kirby sticks him underneath the stage. Finally, Kirby can outperform G-Dub in the air, easily avoiding his aerials and chaining fairs and bairs together to get GW toward the edge. And by the way, it doesn't matter that Kirby can't spam upB, since that's not a character-specific matchup weakness.
Even though Kirby does have these numerous advantages, he still gets ***** by an unsuspected bair or f-smash, and G-Dub's improved KO ability is great against Kirby's poor weight. G-Dub > Kirby, but not >>.

 

[ROOOOY!]

How in the world does Ganondorf have a huge disatvantage against Wario? I can understand a normal disatvange, but a large one, no.

The Wario board didn't even bother giving worth crap about how Ganon would do against Wario Consisting of 9-1 advantage to Wario with a single, simplistic commentary of "Yea" No reason, nothing to back it up.

At least the Ganon board has enough sense to say how Ganondorf has a distavange, but doesn't go around saying its near impossible for Ganon to beat Wario.
---

And once again, on the Ganon rant, I must insist that Ganon has an advantage over Jigglypuff, Sonic, and Yoshi.

Heck, on both the Ganon and Puff Board, there doen't seem to be much on either of the characters. I believe there's one thing on the Ganon board where Ganondorf has a disatvantage. On the Jigglypuff board, one thing where Jigglypuff has the disatvantage. If anything, it should be neutral until a good decision from each board can be found.

Sonic is like Jigglypuff. We have the Ganondorf board saying that Sonic is at the distavantage (though admitting that Sonic could cause some trouble) On the Sonic board we have Ganondorf at the disatvantage. Once again, I say neutral until things can truly be decided out.

I say Ganondorf has the advantage over Yoshi, or at least Neutral, is that though Yoshi has a pretty good air game, Ganondorf beats him on the ground. (Kind of the same reason I put for Jigglypuff awhile ago) Puff's air game beats Ganon's air game, but Ganon's ground game beats Puff's ground game.

Yoshi also has a lack of good knockback. His Bair, considered one of the best of Yoshi's moves has literally no knockback (At least from what I've seen) and can be DIed out of easily. I can only assume that its used in combos because seperately, I don't see it as much use. His specials suffer to Ganondorf, mainly his B-forward. Like Puff's rollout, Ganon can easily counter it with a Flame choke. Egg throw has little knockback, but more in anycase, has to be aimed and stuff. Unlike Pit's arrows which can be spammed endlessly.

Yoshi's regular B move, well, unless I've missed out on some neat technique with it, is only going to be good for racking up some damage while Ganon's in the egg. If anything, the most dangerous special Ganon will have to watch out for is Down B (Which packs quite a whollop)

I've mentioned it before, Ganondorf has more Power, Reach, and priority. Yoshi has speed, and unlike Sonic, whose a flaming ball of bluring blueness, attacking with crazy speed. Yoshi's speed is really only normal. Unlike Sonic also, I haven't really seen what Yoshi can do to "gimp" Ganondorf's recovery. Something that apparently seems to put Sonic above Ganon.

I agree at neutral on the Yoshi part. You've provided an argument for it, and you've swayed me, though a lot of it was already apparent to me.
Jigglypuff I'm not all that sure on..
Ganondorf does have some advantages on Sonic. The main reason why Sonic has been given the advantage here I believe is because Ganondorf's biggest drawback (attack speed/lag on attacks) is something that Sonic can really capitalize on (punishing, being fast in general) because that's Sonic's biggest asset. Having a very gimpable recovery doesn't help though, and you can simply drop a spring on Ganon's face if he tries to juggle you.

And in my opinion Sonic isn't disadvantaged against Pit. Being in his face (as long as you mix up your approaches) won't give him time to projectile spam, one of his biggest assets. He's also fairly light, and neutral B will stop his up B and gimp his recovery.
However, Sonic gets beaten in the air, and priority is a problem on the ground (god **** Side B spammers)
I'd say neutral at worst.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I also am gonna disagree with the Falco > Kirby matchup. Kirby can duck Falco's laser spam and shine, gimp Falco's recovery, and outrange Falco on both the air and the ground. In addition, Falco's fast-falling (for Brawl, anyway) attributes let Kirby rack up 40-ish damage on him just from one grab combo. If this matchup isn't Kirby > Falco, it's at least neutral.

 

[omegablackmage]

i would say the hammer likely outreaches the fsmash, but not the fair or bair by any means. Because the hitbox for each hammer swing is only out for a small window, an approaching bair would surely beat it any day.

i don't think that kirby is able to outmaneuver gw in the air. According to this list of air movements speeds http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952 gw is quite a bit higher on the list, meaning he moves much quicker through the air than kirby. This essentially means he is quicker at getting into and out of situations faster than kirby, thus beating him in the air. Since gw also has more priority and range in every situation, gw will beat kirby all the time in the air, which is where kirby shines.

essentially kirby will have a very difficult time approaching in the air, and without a projectile or any ground range at all kirby can't really touch gw. The only place kirby could put a dent would be on edgeguarding and that still is going to be quite difficult given that gw recovers so low. I still feel as though this is a double advantage.

any thoughts?

 

[Link Lord]

Even if Taj was good with Mewtwo, it does't excuse that Mewtwo was a crappy character overall. Besides, he would never use Mewtwo in serious tourneys.


Just because one person is good with a percieved low bottom tier character does not make said character good.

Fixed. And I was just making a point that Mewtwo had potential, even if not much.

I mean, Taj is a BEAST.

 

[Kiwikomix]

G-Dub may move faster in the air, but many of his aerials come out slowly. Note that, on that thread you posted, DK and Bowser are listed in the A class, but none of their airs actually attack right when the buttons are pressed. The same goes for GW's fair and bair... as you might notice, he lifts up the turtle and box?cake?thing? before he actually uses them. Nair, uair and dair all come out right away but Kirby has no problem upB-ing a dair, stoning a uair, or hammering a nair. Kirby > G-Dub in the air.
Unfortunately, G-Dub excels at pushing Kirby down to the ground and fighting him there. While Kirby is certainly no slouch on the ground, his f-smash is just barely outranged by G-Dub's, and both are equally spammable. While I admitted earlier that Kirby's upB is not spammable, it is a disjoint and therefore gets some range on the ground against GW.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Also, Ivaneva, if you really had the time, could you please Post the changes you make in each update, either as a regular post or maybe even in the OP

 

[omegablackmage]

i would say that the speed at which the moves come out has little to do with who wins in the air, to an extent of course. There is probably 3-5 frames difference, if that, between the start ups of gw's and kirby's aerials, almost negligible considering that gw will have himself spaced well enough to beat any of kirby's aerials.

if kirby is below gw while kirby up b's, kirby will lose to the dair. nair comes out too fast for the hammer to beat it. and yeah the stone is going to beat the up air, but who's going to get hit by that?

 

[Tom]

omegablackmage would get hit by it

 

[Gleam]

I agree at neutral on the Yoshi part. You've provided an argument for it, and you've swayed me, though a lot of it was already apparent to me.
Jigglypuff I'm not all that sure on..
Ganondorf does have some advantages on Sonic. The main reason why Sonic has been given the advantage here I believe is because Ganondorf's biggest drawback (attack speed/lag on attacks) is something that Sonic can really capitalize on (punishing, being fast in general) because that's Sonic's biggest asset. Having a very gimpable recovery doesn't help though, and you can simply drop a spring on Ganon's face if he tries to juggle you.

And in my opinion Sonic isn't disadvantaged against Pit. Being in his face (as long as you mix up your approaches) won't give him time to projectile spam, one of his biggest assets. He's also fairly light, and neutral B will stop his up B and gimp his recovery.
However, Sonic gets beaten in the air, and priority is a problem on the ground (god **** Side B spammers)
I'd say neutral at worst.

I say Jigglypuff is at a distavantage for a couple of reasons. One, shes the lightest character in the came. She is the one that will suffer the most when getting hit. Ftilt can KO at 70% That's a short amount of damage to be KOing at.

Like Yoshi, she has a pretty good Aerial game, but doesn't fair so well on the ground. The opposite being for Ganon. Good ground game, not so good aerial game. Puff's specials are like Yoshi's. Rollout can be flame choked or Wizard Footed, or basically any move come to it. Puff's best move, (unless some new way to easily put rest in comes) will probably be pound. That's already lacking reach and I believe power.

Speaking of Reach, Ganondorf easily beats her there. Whether it be on the ground or in the air. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't puff fall under the lower end of the knockback list?

There also doesn't seem that puff has anything to gimp Ganon's recovery with either. Ganondorf also beats her in priority. Leaving Puff at the advantage in speed. (And let's face it, the advantages Ganon does have right now consist of characters who are faster than him)

 

[cHooKay]

Like Yoshi, she has a pretty good Aerial game, but doesn't fair so well on the ground.

Uhh, yoshi is a boy, or at least, the green one that hangs out with mario..

 

[bacun]

Uhh, yoshi is a boy, or at least, the green one that hangs out with mario..

The she refers to Jigglypuff.

 

[Gleam]

Uhh, yoshi is a boy, or at least, the green one that hangs out with mario..

I meant She as in Jigglypuff, not Yoshi.

EDIT: Thank you Bacun.

 

[Kasai]

i would say that the speed at which the moves come out has little to do with who wins in the air, to an extent of course. There is probably 3-5 frames difference, if that, between the start ups of gw's and kirby's aerials, almost negligible considering that gw will have himself spaced well enough to beat any of kirby's aerials.

if kirby is below gw while kirby up b's, kirby will lose to the dair. nair comes out too fast for the hammer to beat it. and yeah the stone is going to beat the up air, but who's going to get hit by that?

I think that it's important to realize that Kirby has a ton of control over air placement, much more than gw, due to his multi jumps. GW may have more aerial speed but Kirby has the ability to be much more precise than gw does. Now, I'm not saying that kirby is > GW because he can get KO'd easily but there is definitely no way that it justifies a large check. GW's increase in weight actually sets him up for combos that can lead to death or from the start of each stock an easy 34% with decent knockback.

Another thing about air combat is that most of kirby's air game can be started on the ground and can be followed up into the air either via throws or tilts. Even if approaching in the air vs gw is a bad idea, a kirby could always shield grab an aerial and then start his own chain.

All in all, either

Kirby = GW (not likely) or
Kirby < GW

but not Kirby << GW He just isn't insanely outmatched for it to be.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Touche Kasai.
And Omega, you'd be surprised at how often a stone hits, especially if G-Dub is currently puffing madly at thin air like he so enjoys. And Kirby would be to the left of GW coming down with a dair so that the upB could actually hit.

 

[Kasai]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with that stone hit...in all actuality, it's quite hard to hit anyone with it unless they are mid move and have bad air DIing. With the startup time, even if someone is mid-aerial, they would probably have time to either move out of the way or airdodge.

The rock does have it's uses but mainly only for an anti juggling measure, a rare edge guarding situation or a very misplaced upB or long aerial.

 

[Kiwikomix]

"or long aerial"
Like G-Dub's uair.
But yeah, I realize that the stone really isn't omnipotent or anything.

 

[omegablackmage]

could you guys enlighten me on some of these combos that kirby has going for him? i realize that his tilts are nice for setups, especially his up tilt, but unless there are throw combos or good combos in general that im unaware of im going to have to stick to my guns on this one.

 

[Kasai]

Fthrow > up air > fsmash (at lower damage possibly another fthrow > uair in some situations although more against heavy characters)

fthrow > aerial hammer

dthrow > utilt > utilt ....... utilt > uair

fthrow > uair > utilt > bair

I'm sure theres more but I can't think of any atm. Also, these are all just starters. Once the person is in the air it's actually very easy to follow and either WoP or Juggle people.

Basically most of his throws can be combo'd easily from because they leave him in the air and in a placement to follow up.

 

[Kiwikomix]

No problem.
At low percentages, once Kirby gets a grab, most characters can consider themselves up 35-40%. Here's one example:
grab -> hit -> d-throw -> u-tilt -> u-tilt -> uair -> uair juggle -> upB.
^^ This is occasionally escapable once it gets to the upB mark. Another example:
grab -> hit -> f-throw -> uair -> f-throw -> uair -> u-tilt -> u-smash.
This is generally less escapable but becomes easier to avoid at higher % as the f-throw will knock lighter characters too far.
Then, of course, there's just straight-up uair juggling and dair/d-tilt -> f-smash, the second of which can KO at higher %.

Edit: Agh, I must learn to type faster. This thread ain't big enough for two Kirby mains.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hmm... and I think zelda should be big "X" vs. DDD.... quite frankly, she destroys him in the mathcup.

She can pretty easily outcamp his waddle dees since they don't block her din's fire, and, being a big target, if zelda cleverly varies the timing of her explosions, she has a good chance of connecting with Din's fire normally.

the outcamping forces DDD to approach... and he's pretty bad at it. and aerial approach gets destroyed by Usmash, though he can dair through it if he's directly above her... but there's no way that zelda should be forced into that position.

There's almost no easier charcter to connect with lighting kicks.

that's just the glaring advantages, but there's more to the matchup than just this.

 

[DanGR]

I'm daring to be bold. Please don't flame me. Anyone else think Oly has a small advantage over Snake?(yes, I said it-a weakness...)

Olimar outranges all his tilts,grabs,and smashes. The projectiles might be even. All Olimar has to do is shield any fast approach snake has and he's got the match wrapped up. I can explain further if you like, but I'd like some feedback as well. Here's a good example of one of olimar's glaring advantages at 1:12. It's his protection against the infamous jab and tilt.

PsychoMidget(snake) v Bryan(olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCHNEx507yE&NR=1

It's not his best performance, I know, and this video doesn't sum up the entire matchup, but for me, at least, it's very persuasive. speaks much does a good player losing.(my yoda impersonation, if you don't mind)

Thoughts?

P.s.-in no way or form am i suggesting snake<olimar overall in tiers. To prove my point, read my sig. enjoy the vid.

 

[AzSvFeZ]

Thats actually not a bad chart, those are normally the three lvl 9's that do decent against me. I'm a TL btw.

 

[Browny]

Dedede's recovery is nothing more than a free kill for zelda with the f-air or b-air. whether he cancels it in mid air, or lands on the ground, theres just nothing you can do to stop it.

its amazing how few people actually punish ddd's recovery when you watch youtube videos. so often they will just shield the impact and attempt to smash or grab, which never works since the stars knock you back. just jump into him, air dodge, fall down with him and bam, free kill

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you can't get into position for a lightning kick, you can easily Usmash through it or even utilt which can still kill... he just has a MASSIVE disadvantage in the matchup.

 

[petrie911]

Could someone explain the big red X for Ness vs Olimar. Ness vs Marth is a lost cause, no question, but I'm not sure why Olimar is so awful.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL.

Marth can do horrible things to Dedede's recovery.

Counter his up b and he takes a nice chunk and it knocks him back out. If Dedede cancels it then Marth has enough time to recover and hit Dedede back out. And of course if it looks like Dedede will try for the ledge with his up b just run off and edgehug.