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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Tenki

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Sonic vs DK

sonic - downb forces him into the air, in which case sonic is not much faster than dk. dk lives forever, and will not die until very late (170-230) bair, fair, and nair do not go through dk's upb, so you'd have to get off a spring gimp, which is very difficult vs a relatively fast horizontal recovery
I think DK is at an advantage, but I don't think that it's that large of one.
Eh, I watched the video that djbrowny linked to, and Kamano wasn't forced into the air by your down-B. Though I'll agree with the implication that that Sonic attacking a grounded DK from above is kind of a bad idea.

The first DK player I fought was axelol, who's a better smash player than I am, so I'm also in the mindset that DK is one of Sonic's tougher matchups. I spent a tiny bit of time to try to see what could beat DK's recovery. Sonic's D-air goes through DK's upB.

Note: I didn't check the details of it too much, like whether or not DK's up-B just has vulnerability from the top like MK's tornado, or if it had diminishing priority at the time, though. Either way, if Sonic pulls a sweetspot D-air on a DK off-stage, that is effectively=gimp'd. Spring gimping doesn't seem to work, since I think DK's up-B destroys the spring.

If a Sonic gets you at a high % like that, it's either:

1) Whatever move he's trying to kill you with (probably B-air, if it's that high?) is stale, since a Sonic B-air can kill DK (no DI) from the middle of FD at 150% if it's not stale.
2) He's raising your damage to increase his kill move options (tilts/throws)
3) He's having problems aiming his kill moves (situation I get into sometimes...lol)

@.@ I gotta get some more practice against DK, btw, anyone wanna volunteer, wifi? cable connection/EC preferred ;d
 

ShadowLink84

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sonic - downb forces him into the air, in which case sonic is not much faster than dk. dk lives forever, and will not die until very late (170-230) bair, fair, and nair do not go through dk's upb, so you'd have to get off a spring gimp, which is very difficult vs a relatively fast horizontal recovery
Spinshotting solves the issue concerning aerial speed for Sonic.
And you mean side B which pops him up into the air at first.

Bair Fair and Nair do not go through the ^B I agree but a well timed Dair can definitely cause some issues for DK. It comes out quickly and semispikes so the timing isn't too great either.

I agree that it is one of SOnic's tougher matchups but i am leaning to a soft disadvantage.
It is definitely not a large advantage since Sonic's speed can be somewhat of an issue for DK.
His over and vB can be good for approaching due to their speed and ability to retain momentum in the air and Sonic's grabs can lead into situations that would place pressure on DK.
His grabs are further enhanced in ranged by his dash shield grab and in case he feels like he is rushing into a trap can cancel his dashes.

DK does not live up past 170 to 230. If he does it is either a magnificent error on Sonic's part or he isn't making use of his Uair which has multiple setups leading into it. Or isn't making use of his other moves with killing potential since at such percentages DK is bound to be off the stage.

Its not a great advantage for DK because Sonic's ability to space can give DK some trouble and because many of his moves can lead into setups that are potentially lethal for DK.

I do agree though that DK's tilts and priority will cause issues for SOnic. His ^B is also a bit difficult to gimp. Sonic really has to rely on being unpredictable and even then DK can prevent Sonic's approaches if he can space things properly.
 

itsthebigfoot

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are you taking into accont the fact thar DK is a combo pin-cushion of sorts. diddy, pika, lucario, G&W, shiek and zamus can all trap DK extremely well in chain grabs, tilt locks or simple combos that lead into finishers.
pika's fthrow, and maybe lucario at low percents are the only two things you mentioned that can chain grab, zamus can do dsmash to upb, which can be tech'd, G&W dthrow can be tech'd, however, dk players are probably used to stuff like this, which is exactly why i pointed out, most of the time, i'm perfectly alright getting hit up to 50%, because i know 2 ftilts and an aa combo later they're up at 30, and since most of the combo heavy characters are light, they're closer to death at 30 than i am at 50, pikachu lacks a very reliable kill move, dk has 7 completely reliable killers and 6 situationals. zamus has bair and uair, which kill at very high percents, i've yet to drop a game to nealdt's zamus and he's the best on ive played so far, you get combo'd but you don't die. G&W does have good kill moves and he'll get a paragraph later. note that he is very light, and his most common approach is extremely susceptible to super armor

lucario does not kill well when he is at low percents, and dk can and will kill lucario before he hits 70%, that's why

sheik does lots of damage, however dk out ranges her and kills her at ridiculous percents while sheik really cannot kill him, again, upb eats gimps when used properly, sheik has usmash and uair, after playing a few rounds with fayt (one of the best sheiks around here) i can tell you its a definite advantage for dk
diddy does not have a tilt lock, something as simple as picking up the banana takes away anything resembling a decent combo, on top of the dk's glide toss goes half the length of fd and combos into both dsmash and bpunch, the banana's + weight + lack of kill moves hurt diddy too much

and no way DK is a large advantage against sonic. as above, dk is so large sonics moves all combo into each other for a large range of %'s. and im about 99% sure sonics side b goes through DK's down b during the hop, since it goes through just about every other move in the game.


infact screw that, i searched youtube for a video and what are the chances i find your video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-oS-fM2IN4

notice how sonics sideb goes through everything DK has. also you said when sonic is in the air, thats not where he wants to be. i think i counted 5 aerials that hit from DK in that entire match, while the sonic easily piled on the damage with his aerials.

you have the experience obviously to give a decent match up, but dont make generalisations like downb is greater than all of sonics approaches, when you obviously know this isnt the case
i wouldnt use that match as reference, i played 9 games with that guy, and he only posted the three where he did ok, (three stocked him twice, two stocked him 4 times) on top of that its wifi between california and florida, which is slow as hell. so the only thing you're really proving from pointing that out would be sonic is better in lag. sideb does not go through everything, i guarantee that both of dk's superarmor moves will go through it 100% of the time, and i'm pretty sure i ftilt, fsmash, dsmash, downb, and bair my friends sonic out of it all the time, but i'll test it next time i play lucky (next time i see him)

Also like to not that Samus can Zair Donkey Kong's player unplugs his controller and walks away.
which dk have you been playing, if he zairs, roll and dsmash, samus doesn't have her gtfo move anymore since they nerfed her downsmash, and dk's dsmash comes out about as fast as samus's tilts and out prioritizes them quite nicely. she can get off a jab if you didn't get behind her, however, your dsmash will still connect, so you'll take an extra 3%, and she'll take another 16+ and fly into the air, i think i'll take that trade.

Recipe for Lucario to win against DK:
1) use Force Palm at close range. Chain throw until edge of stage.
2) running grab and continuously grab attack until he breaks out and drops over the edge.
3) drop down and footstool/Fair second jump
4)????
5)profit.

Delicious gimp cake!

The problem here is that DK's recovery is mostly horizontal. He's also rather succeptable to Luc's chain grab.
who were you playing the comp? he can just upb once he's off the ledge = no gimp cake, given, when both lucario and dk are at low percents, the chain grab is annoying, but, dk exploits lucarios major weakness in that he can kill before 70% consistently with fsmash, usmash, and the armor punch (usmash gets lucario at 73 when uncharged, but a slight charge fixes that, and usmash has a longer range than dair, so don't say its impossible to get off, it is very possible)


im sorry, but ness certainly isnt at a large disadvantage vs dk, his Fair basically ***** DK's shield to the point of it breaking or having to try to dodge all over, and either situation is bad for DK, and and once DK is anywhere near 100% Ness Bthrow will put him in a bad situation, if it doesn't kill him ness can gimp DK pretty bad with a pk fire wall and then just Dair spike him for the k.o. however as we all know, a good dk player can K.O. easily at 60% and yes, i play with friends, and yes they are good. and we live in iowa and have jobs so we don't really have time to go to those, "pro tourneys" but that doesn't mean we aren't any good. so don't go flaming me too just becuz u haven't heard of me.
umm, i said large disadvantage if infinites are kept as legal, dk's cargo hold to drop infinites ness

I think DK is at an advantage, but I don't think that it's that large of one.
Eh, I watched the video that djbrowny linked to, and Kamano wasn't forced into the air by your down-B. Though I'll agree with the implication that that Sonic attacking a grounded DK from above is kind of a bad idea.

The first DK player I fought was axelol, who's a better smash player than I am, so I'm also in the mindset that DK is one of Sonic's tougher matchups. I spent a tiny bit of time to try to see what could beat DK's recovery. Sonic's D-air goes through DK's upB.

Note: I didn't check the details of it too much, like whether or not DK's up-B just has vulnerability from the top like MK's tornado, or if it had diminishing priority at the time, though. Either way, if Sonic pulls a sweetspot D-air on a DK off-stage, that is effectively=gimp'd. Spring gimping doesn't seem to work, since I think DK's up-B destroys the spring.

If a Sonic gets you at a high % like that, it's either:

1) Whatever move he's trying to kill you with (probably B-air, if it's that high?) is stale, since a Sonic B-air can kill DK (no DI) from the middle of FD at 150% if it's not stale.
2) He's raising your damage to increase his kill move options (tilts/throws)
3) He's having problems aiming his kill moves (situation I get into sometimes...lol)

@.@ I gotta get some more practice against DK, btw, anyone wanna volunteer, wifi? cable connection/EC preferred ;d
kill moves = he tries to hit with fsmash thinking dk is slow, dk is not slow, so fsmash misses. on the dair, i'm not sure, if he hits the armsit won't go through, but i'm not sure where the hitbox on the semi spike is, if they have to be right next to you (similar to ganon's downb) then you'll never get it off, and be combo'd for an extra 30% by the upb

Spinshotting solves the issue concerning aerial speed for Sonic.
And you mean side B which pops him up into the air at first.

Bair Fair and Nair do not go through the ^B I agree but a well timed Dair can definitely cause some issues for DK. It comes out quickly and semispikes so the timing isn't too great either.

I agree that it is one of SOnic's tougher matchups but i am leaning to a soft disadvantage.
It is definitely not a large advantage since Sonic's speed can be somewhat of an issue for DK.
His over and vB can be good for approaching due to their speed and ability to retain momentum in the air and Sonic's grabs can lead into situations that would place pressure on DK.
His grabs are further enhanced in ranged by his dash shield grab and in case he feels like he is rushing into a trap can cancel his dashes.

DK does not live up past 170 to 230. If he does it is either a magnificent error on Sonic's part or he isn't making use of his Uair which has multiple setups leading into it. Or isn't making use of his other moves with killing potential since at such percentages DK is bound to be off the stage.

Its not a great advantage for DK because Sonic's ability to space can give DK some trouble and because many of his moves can lead into setups that are potentially lethal for DK.

I do agree though that DK's tilts and priority will cause issues for SOnic. His ^B is also a bit difficult to gimp. Sonic really has to rely on being unpredictable and even then DK can prevent Sonic's approaches if he can space things properly.
refer to above posts for some of that, but in no lag, it isn't nearly as hard to hit sonic
 

ShadowLink84

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kill moves = he tries to hit with fsmash thinking dk is slow, dk is not slow, so fsmash misses. on the dair, i'm not sure, if he hits the armsit won't go through, but i'm not sure where the hitbox on the semi spike is, if they have to be right next to you (similar to ganon's downb) then you'll never get it off, and be combo'd for an extra 30% by the upb
The hitbox extends roughly 1/5th of the distance of Sonic's Dair length. During that entire time his hitbox will cause s semispike.
As for Fsmash sonic is more likelt to use a stutter step to catch DK off guard.
Or rely on his Bair, or Uair since Dk cannot outrange Sonic's Uair.


refer to above posts for some of that, but in no lag, it isn't nearly as hard to hit sonic
You'd be surprised. Due ot his extremely high speed and ability to icnrease his aerial its not as easy as you may think. yes DK has good range but it can be difficult for characters such as Snake and Marth and Lucario to grab a hold of Sonic for a KO. For DK who is slower than them in movement (not attack) it'll be difficult to kill Sonic if he is constantly running outside your range.
 

TehBo49

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ok, your dk section is very off and i'm going to try to fix it.

as of right now


large advantages : Jiggs, C. Falcon, Samus, Sonic, metaknight, lucas, ness if infinites are kept as legal (cargo trap by ledge is inescapable)

advantages: diddy, pikachu, ike, snake, ganon, lucario, link, squirtle, charizard, ivysaur, game and watch, rob, sheik, zamus

neutral: mario, marth, falco, bowser, wolf, zelda, peach

disadvantage: wario, luigi, fox, kirby (maybe on kirby, need to play him more, he dies quick, might be neutral)

Large disadvantage: IC, DDD
Samus is at best a normal advantage. MK & Lucario are neutral at best. Every other bolded character should be a disadvantage.
 

itsthebigfoot

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Samus is at best a normal advantage. MK & Lucario are neutral at best. Every other bolded character should be a disadvantage.
care to elaborate on that? i've posted a whole lot of reasons that those matchups are advantages for dk, you just seem to think your right because you say so.

also, snake and metaknight have been accepted as advantage dk for a while now
 

Undrdog

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which dk have you been playing, if he zairs, roll and dsmash, samus doesn't have her gtfo move anymore since they nerfed her downsmash, and dk's dsmash comes out about as fast as samus's tilts and out prioritizes them quite nicely. she can get off a jab if you didn't get behind her, however, your dsmash will still connect, so you'll take an extra 3%, and she'll take another 16+ and fly into the air, i think i'll take that trade
Er...? What? It's not a matter of "which DK I've been playing", it's the fact I know both characters very well.

if he zairs, roll and dsmash
You're joking right? The Zair auto-cancels... You'd be better off just getting hit by the Zair then to be dumb enough to roll towards and opponent that not only expects it to come, but isn't lagged at all.

Seriously, I think the real question here is, have you ever played a halfway decent... Scratch that. Have you ever played a Samus that had any idea what Samus' moves were? Samus is screwed when she fights smaller characters. But any character that's larger then her and she can outspeed she has beat. That's hardly a handful of the cast, but Donkey Kong easily falls into this bracket.
 

itsthebigfoot

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does hugs know samus's moves? cuz i've played him several times

zair autocancels, but samus has several slow moves for getting people away from her, i mentioned that dk's dsmash is faster than samus's tilts, when you roll inside, samus does not have anything on dk

EDIT: after rereading your post, i'm beginning to question whether or not you know dk well, dk is about as fast as some middleweights, (slower than mario/luigi, but not by much) samus is on the slow side for middle weights, and dk is faster than samus, if dk gets inside, even when samus has no lag from the zair, dks utilt, ftilt, dtilt, aa combo, and downsmash all come out faster than samus's ground moves, so rolling actually does work.
 

Undrdog

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Are you telling me HugS has a hard time against Donkey Kongs? I sincerely doubt it. And if he does I'd wager to bet it has something to do with his general distaste for Brawl Samus. But in the end I can't argue about another guy's point of view.

Geez, why does HugS come up in every single one of these conversation? lol
 

TehBo49

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care to elaborate on that? i've posted a whole lot of reasons that those matchups are advantages for dk, you just seem to think your right because you say so.

also, snake and metaknight have been accepted as advantage dk for a while now
Samus-Pretty much what UndrDog said. Zair & missiles keep DK away.

MK-Correctly spaced attacks will outprioritize DK.

Lucario-Fsmash outranges DK. Lucario can also combo DK very easily.

Pikachu-Thunderjolt keeps DK away & DK is also easily juggled.

Snake-KOs better & keeps DK away with grenades, mortars, etc.

G&W-Bair stops all of DK's approaches. He also kills relatively as fast as DK.

ROB-Lasers & gyros keep DK away. Can gimp DK easily while DK cannot gimp him.

Marth-Faster & more priority.

Falco-Lasers & chaingrab.

Zelda-Smashes & Din's keeps DK away.
 

itsthebigfoot

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i brought him up because you asked which samus player i've played. but a whole lot of people have problems with donkey kong, riot and bum have been winning a lot of tournaments out on the east coast, cbk, myself, blitz, and a few others have been placing well with him out west. if you really know dk like you say you do, you'd know he is a very good character. he's placed 8th on ankoku's list, and that's not counting most of bums wins (from what i've heard bums been wrecking most of NY) donkey kong is quick for his size, with high priority moves that kill at low percents, if he had a spammable projectile and vertical recovery he'd be broken
 

ROOOOY!

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Snake-KOs better & keeps DK away with grenades, mortars, etc.
These are the only types of Snakes Donkey Kong's have any trouble against, the ones that run away, throw a grenade, run further away, throw another grenade, run away, missile.
Mines aren't that useful against DK, cos his down B can neutralize them. Sure, from range Snake beats DK all over, but a properly spaced DK puts hurt all over Snake with tilts, because they come out pretty fast. Smashes could be used too, but with a lot of wind-up time they're a pain in the arse to use effectively.
I'd argue with Snake KOing better, too. If he did, it would only be very slightly better. Just let DK grab him out of his cypher and then throw him off stage and he can GTFO.
 

itsthebigfoot

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Samus-Pretty much what UndrDog said. Zair & missiles keep DK away.

refer to my statements towards undrdog

MK-Correctly spaced attacks will outprioritize DK.

not really, dk has a lot of priority on all of his attacks, and if the dk player is decent he can out space metaknight, ask edge or any of the metaknights out here that've played a good dk, its a bad matchup for metaknight

Lucario-Fsmash outranges DK. Lucario can also combo DK very easily.

umm, dk's ftilt and fsmash both have longer ranges and come out faster, dk can also kill lucario at low percents which ends badly for lucario

Pikachu-Thunderjolt keeps DK away & DK is also easily juggled.

dk's shorthop double bair is one of the better approaches in the game, ftilt also cancels most projectiles, including thunderjolt, try again when you've played a good dk

Snake-KOs better & keeps DK away with grenades, mortars, etc.

... have you ever been in the general vicinity of any dk in any game ever?

dk ko's better than snake, with the exception of snakes fsmash, however, no intelligent dk will get hit by that. dk has a good approach, and if dk grabs snake at 40%, that snake will die, all of dk's aerials go through the cypher and snakes heavy armor, if snake is still on screen when he tries to cypher, he can and will be hit out of it, nobody who has ever played snake vs dk with a dk that know what he's doing has denied dk''s advantage


G&W-Bair stops all of DK's approaches. He also kills relatively as fast as DK.

dk's fully charged punch beats all of G&W's approaches that arent the key, dk will live into the 100's vs game and watch, and dk kills game and watch at 50-70. its getting to the point where dc needs a 9 hammer to beat me, and he's ranked, i'm not

ROB-Lasers & gyros keep DK away. Can gimp DK easily while DK cannot gimp him.

dk does not get camped nearly as easily as you assume (offline at least), and dk's dair is strong enough to gimp rob at 30%, and rob cannot airdodge during his upb, so dk can actually gimp him where as the only thing rob has that goes through dk's upb is dair, which is hard to get off vs a fast moving target

Marth-Faster & more priority.

marth is faster, w/less range and less priority, which is about the same as most of dk's good matchups. dk's bair beats marth's fair, dks ftilt and fsmash both outrange marths ftilt and fsmash, the only real advantage is marth is one of the few characters that can gimp dk

Falco-Lasers & chaingrab.

falco has the chaingrab, which dk can escape after he's past 20-23% by DI ing back and using upb. falco is a matchup where both characters take away each others advantages. falco cannot chaingrab dk well, dk can't beat falcos lasers with ftilt, dk spaces better than falco when he doesn't use laser, falco has lasers, dk kills far earlier than falco, falco racks up damage well. and before you say the falco i played sucks, i played forward

Zelda-Smashes & Din's keeps DK away.

dk has a good approach, and ftilt cancels out dins fire when she detonates it, dk out ranges zelda and kills her quick, though i admit her smashes are annoying, which is why i placed her at an even fight. if dk gets a hit up close, zelda is in a whole lot of trouble
yeah... i really doubt you've played a good dk... or a compitent dk... or a human controlled dk
 

Undrdog

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Well I'm not going to keep going on about this for reasons that would probably just start a flame war. But I will simply point out that my views on this match-up haven't changed. ^_^
 

itsthebigfoot

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That's the thing. If Snake plays defensively, he beats DK. Snake can use things other than mines to keep DK away. Mortars also hurt DK's recovery. Snake kills better because he lives longer than DK & his tilts are faster than most of DK's smashes.
1. dk has a great approach in sh double bair, and is very hard to keep away

2. upb is not affected by mortars or nikita for reasons i've never found out

3. dk is heavier than snake with good horizontal recovery that is hard for snake to spike, seriously, snake has to sweetspot it at the bottom of his hit box against a fast moving target, otherwise he'll get hit before he gets off a spike. ajax has done it once, and nobody else has gotten it off. dk lives longer than snake, most snake mains will attest to that.
 

Emblem Lord

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I would contest that Marth can pressure DK alot better then DK can pressure him and is overall the safer character.

lol@bigfoot just assuming that no one plays good DK's or know what a good DK is.

Try that with me son.

I live in the same region as BUM.
 

legendofme

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This will be the only time I swear I ask for match-ups..

Yo Emblem. Does a good Dedede have a advantage against a good G&W? This is for future preferences in counter-picking since D3 is one of my good characters.
 

Emblem Lord

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G&W > Dedede.

Dedede can't CG and G&W can pressure effectively, kill Dedede early, and has his d-throw set-ups that work really well thanks to Dedede's weight.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Hey Bigfoot.

I dont really agree with G&W as a disadvantage. I second DK, and he's a beast, but I really think he would not match up as well as you'd think vs G&W. I've played some pretty good DKs, and I wish I played more, but I never once thought to myself "man, DK is killing me much to low" or "I wish there was a way past his range!"

dk's fully charged punch beats all of G&W's approaches that arent the key,
Hmm? Are you even aware of the approaches G&W has aside from the Bair? You mentioned the Key, which is nice, but you ignored another important aspect of this matchup. G&W also can approach with the Chef. The charged punch doesnt beat this as it has the better range. In fact, the chef is quite important to this matchup as it deals with DK's aerial Bair approach. Chef does a number on big characters, to the point were the best thing they can do is the predictable rolling.

The charged punch should rarely happen if the G&W pressures well enough, but it can still occur between stocks and the like.

dk will live into the 100's vs game and watch, and dk kills game and watch at 50-70.
Donkey Kong can kill G&W at 50?! I really doubt this. Maybe the fully charged Punch or a charged smash, but just because he's light doesnt mean he will die extremely early. G&W can get you into your killing range actually quite fast with the multi hitting Fishbowl and Turtle, while spacing well with Chef.

And, as a large character, there really isnt much DK can do when he gets grabbed. I mean, yes, he isnt affected by Dthrow -> Dsmash, and even if it were so he could tech this. What G&W can do though is play a good tech chase game vs DK. Tech chasing is easy against big folks like Dedede and Ganon, so I wouldnt be surprised if Dk got chased easy too.

Aside from the Dtrowing, he has his Uthrow. You cant tech this baby, and it leads into one of the most potent tactics (still in its infancy), Uair stalling. G&W has amazing options when DK is above him; Nair, Uair, UpB, etc. DK as a character doesnt have a safe way to get down aside from airdodging, and even then, he's one big hitbox. Uairing will refresh G&W's stale moves and help get his killing moves perfect. DK doesnt have the luxury of having a way to refresh his stale moves if his "killing move" doesnt actually kill.

Though, DK does have some good ground control with his tilts. Range and power are definitely on his side, but G&W, being such a swiss army knife sort of character, gets around characters with this claim.

its getting to the point where dc needs a 9 hammer to beat me, and he's ranked, i'm not
I don't see why this matters?

So, I really see this as 5:5.
I do agree that DK kills early, but I think G&W doesnt have too much trouble with this.
 

TehBo49

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@itsthebigfoot:

MK-His attacks are disjointed. Thus spacing works much better for him.

Lucario-Fsmash has range that is about equal to those attacks. Lucario also combos DK very easily with f-airs & u-airs. Like MK, his attacks are also disjointed.

Pikachu-Cancelling with ftilt gets you punished with a QAC'd d-smash, aerial, etc.

Snake-He is indeed heavier than DK. Because of this & his strong tilts, they KO each other at similar percents. Shield-dropped grenades solve the bair problem. I understand what your saying, but I still feel that DK has no advantage here.

G&W-Bair comes out faster than charge punch & using charge punch to stop it is a bad idea. G&W's f-smash KOs DK at around 110%.

ROB-He can't air dodge, but he can attack out of upb. DK's recovery is predictable enough that ROB can time his dair to hit him. DK also has no way of blocking the laser except shielding.

Marth-See Emblem Lord.

Falco-Lasers still keep DK from getting close which makes it hard for DK to land a hit. Falco can also kill him faster with a spike.

Zelda-Once again, properly spaced disjointed attacks will stop DK. Din's fire has such a large hitbox, that it can hit DK behind ftilt.
 

itsthebigfoot

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@ escalator - yeah, when i first played lovage and dc, i thought it was even, but i seem to be able to get off the punch a lot vs G&W, and usmash and fsmash both kill in the 50s with little to no charge

@ emblem, i know you've played good dk's, but when some assumes dk does not have good approaches, that tells me they haven't played a good dk

[quote[
@itsthebigfoot:

MK-His attacks are disjointed. Thus spacing works much better for him.

Lucario-Fsmash has range that is about equal to those attacks. Lucario also combos DK very easily with f-airs & u-airs. Like MK, his attacks are also disjointed.

Pikachu-Cancelling with ftilt gets you punished with a QAC'd d-smash, aerial, etc.

Snake-He is indeed heavier than DK. Because of this & his strong tilts, they KO each other at similar percents. Shield-dropped grenades solve the bair problem. I understand what your saying, but I still feel that DK has no advantage here.

G&W-Bair comes out faster than charge punch & using charge punch to stop it is a bad idea. G&W's f-smash KOs DK at around 110%.

ROB-He can't air dodge, but he can attack out of upb. DK's recovery is predictable enough that ROB can time his dair to hit him. DK also has no way of blocking the laser except shielding.

Marth-See Emblem Lord.

Falco-Lasers still keep DK from getting close which makes it hard for DK to land a hit. Falco can also kill him faster with a spike.

Zelda-Once again, properly spaced disjointed attacks will stop DK. Din's fire has such a large hitbox, that it can hit DK behind ftilt.[/quote]

mk - his attacks are still shorter ranged than dk, dk's ftilt goes over twice the length of metaknight, so unless you try to hit his attacks instead of hitting metaknight, you will beat out mk's attacks. in fact, the argument most metaknight's ive talked to say its a disadvantage for metaknight, though some argue that his tornado juggles make it less of a disadvantage, not one of them has denied dk's range and priority advantages

lucario - lucario still can die around 70%, which hurts him badly because of his lack of killing power until he's at high percents.

pikachu - ftilt cancelling ends the ftilt with no lag, downsmash is very easy to DI, pikachu still lacks a reliable kill move

Snake - dk is the second heaviest character behind ddd, so no, snake is not heavier, to top this off dk is still very good at forcing snake off the stage and beating his recovery. also, dks punch beats snakes tilts and kills quick

g&w - bpunch has longer range than the turtle which can be predicted, fsmash kills G&W at 55%


the rest later
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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changes that need to be made include

Shiek vs. space animals.
-it's at least an advantage, likely even a huge one.

Sonic Vs. Olimar
-Quite frankly, the common consensus is that it's about even.

Zelda Vs. Squirtle
-Advantage Zelda.

Olimar Vs. Zelda
-it's even or at least roughly so.
 

Mr. Escalator

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@ escalator - yeah, when i first played lovage and dc, i thought it was even, but i seem to be able to get off the punch a lot vs G&W, and usmash and fsmash both kill in the 50s with little to no charge
I did some testing in the training room, and the Fsmash started killing at 85% with DI and Airdodge+jump when uncharged. It didnt even kill G&W without DI at 55%.

The Usmash killed at 70 or so, but that was harder to take because of the varying level of where he would jump. It also breaks through the key when timed right. However, I doubt G&W will fall into an Usmash, even with a key (can be slowfalled). The key breaks through the Utilt.

I was even less precise, but the Dsmash killed at varying levels. He would die sooner if hit with the fists perfectly, but we could DI out of that at around 90%, though we didnt go higher and find where it killed at. If hit near the body, G&W could survive muuuuch longer.

The fully charged donkey punch killed in the 60 range.

These were all taken from the center of Final Destination.
And, these numbers will certainly change with the inclusion of stale moves.

g&w - bpunch has longer range than the turtle which can be predicted, fsmash kills G&W at 55%
it kills nearer to the sixty margin.
And,
G&W can predict the punch as well as you can predict the turtle.
In fact, when you have it charged, he should be playing conservatively, using Chef to space in watching out for both the punch and the headbutt. It's like if G&W has his bucket filled, the opponent plays differently to avoid it. Unlike the bucket, the Punch has no "combos" to land it, aside from the headbutt.

I still see G&W racking on damage faster than DK will be. Aside from his Smashes, not much beats G&W's things. You dont want to be using Usmash when G&W is at low percents because you're now just stale-ing a reliable killing move.

The ftlt is pretty much you're best bet at damage dealing. Second best would be Bair, but anytime you're in the air theres a chance that you're getting put in a bad place.

Oh, and G&W's Dtilt does horrible things to DK's recovery. DK recover's horizontally, but the Dtilt will knock you out of it a couple of times until you can finally hit the ledge. You have to come from under it if you want to be unharmed, and its hard to do with DK's.
 

DanGR

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changes that need to be made include

Shiek vs. space animals.
-it's at least an advantage, likely even a huge one.

Sonic Vs. Olimar
-Quite frankly, the common consensus is that it's about even.

Zelda Vs. Squirtle
-Advantage Zelda.

Olimar Vs. Zelda
-it's even or at least roughly so.
We've a;ready gone over those Olimar matchups. And quite frankly, nothing new has made either matchup any different. I can go into detail again if IvanEva decides to change the chart, but right now, I don't see a purpose cuz I think it's right as of now and I don't think he should change it.

As for Sheik v space animals-all wolf has to do(to get out of ftilt lock) is shield to get out(easy) and fox/falco can jump DI-up and jump out. At most it's a small advantage for sheik if any.

Zelda v Squirtle- I've changed my mind about this one. After reading the squirtle and the zelda threads and experimenting on my own in live matches, I've come to realize that Squirtle has the advantage. I'm not on your side on this one anymore man. Sorry. :ohwell:
 

TehBo49

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@itsthebigfoot:

MK-I still think if he spaces the disjoint correctly, it will be tough to hit him. I see your point though. I think if DK did have an advantage here it wouldn't be a large one like you originally said.

Lucario-Only if he let's you get close. He should be able to keep you away with his disjoints to survive a little longer. Also, unless he gets hit by a charge punch, I don't think he'll die THAT fast. He also doesn't have to be above 100% to kill. I'd test his KO percents on DK at 70%, but I don't have a copy of Brawl with me at the moment to do it.

Pikachu-He has plenty of kill moves. Usmash, fsmash, nair, dair, uair, thunder all KO well. Usmash to thunder can kill even Bowser at about 100% or lower. Dsmash also outprioritizes DK's bair.

Snake-Sorry, I made a mistake here. DK is indeed heavier than Snake but only slightly (i.e. Snake is third after Bowser & DK). After watching some videos & doing some research into both characters, I now think this match is even.

G&W-After reading Mr. Escalator's post, I find this match to be even as well.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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We've a;ready gone over those Olimar matchups. And quite frankly, nothing new has made either matchup any different. I can go into detail again if IvanEva decides to change the chart, but right now, I don't see a purpose cuz I think it's right as of now and I don't think he should change it.

As for Sheik v space animals-all wolf has to do(to get out of ftilt lock) is shield to get out(easy) and fox/falco can jump DI-up and jump out. At most it's a small advantage for sheik if any.

Zelda v Squirtle- I've changed my mind about this one. After reading the squirtle and the zelda threads and experimenting on my own in live matches, I've come to realize that Squirtle has the advantage. I'm not on your side on this one anymore man. Sorry. :ohwell:
where are you getting that squirtle wins here? I need to see why this is the case
 

Kasai

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Lucario definitely doesn't have a disadvantage against DK. Not only is DK very, very easy to combo, with his weight and size, but also easy to gimp with his horrible vertical recovery. Lucario is a very good gimping character. His dair stage spikes very well, his bthrow has a decent amount of downward momentum and with fair chains followed by a dair, DK can get killed by as low as 60ish.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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We've a;ready gone over those Olimar matchups. And quite frankly, nothing new has made either matchup any different. I can go into detail again if IvanEva decides to change the chart, but right now, I don't see a purpose cuz I think it's right as of now and I don't think he should change it.
no but you gave an equal number of reasons olimar is better as I did that sonic does better and 90% of the boards agrees it should be even... no idea what the logic is for looking at equal numbers of evidence on both sides and then arbitrarily picking one.
 

DanGR

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Sonic-I'll get to your post in a minute.

As for Olimar and PT: I've been wanting for the matchup of Olimar versus the three pokemon to be changed for a while. I've stumbled across some more evidence that shows that the PT in their own thread agree with me. On page 11 of their matchup thread they have

Olimar>Squirtle
Olimar~Ivysaur
Olimar~Charizard

(http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156038&page=11)
If we can get the chart changed to that, I'd be content for now. thanks.

Edit: uggh, you already changed it... well, I'll let this be a reference for anyone else who argues with me over this one.

Edit2: well Sonic, as for Squirtle: I looked up some stuff on olimar and found some stuff about squirtle.

“Squirtle: I played a pretty decent amount of matches vs. Zelda, and feel that Squirtle's speed just completely counters Zelda's slow magic. Air dodging her fireballs, and faking her out with shellshifts will open her to easy punishment. Grabbing into Squirtle's aerials is surefire ****.”
-icelement

“Completely agree with the pikachu and zelda match ups described.”
-Fire wulf

This is pretty much what they had regarding squirtle v zelda. They didn't have any problem v zelda with squirtle the slightest bit. I know for a fact that Fire Wulf knows what he's talking about. I haven't seen Icelement play though, but he seems correct. Squirtle is very similiar to Wario in that it can be hard to predict what he'll do next. He's small enough to just jump around and get in between the cracks in Zelda's great defense. He can change his horizontal momentum almost as well as wario can. Squirtle can ff vertically almost as well too. Squirtle can use his speed to capitalize on any mistakes Zelda makes almost as well as sonic does. He can stand under Zelda's upsmash. (and uptilt?) Zelda's fsmash wall and her upsmash wall aren't much of a problem. Squirtle's aerials have great priority too. Get this, I'm pretty sure squirtle can duck under her grab. His dtilt and ftilt are fast, which is a great thing to combat the quickness of Zelda's tilts and her dsmash. Squirtle's jabs moves him forward, which can keep them from having a shielding/spotdodging war. I've also had some personal experience versus Zelda with squirtle too, but I don't main him, so that shouldn't be taken much into consideration though. You guess how that went. :)

Well, anyways, There's not many PT mains in this thread, but I'm sure they agree with me. I'm not the person to argue over this with, but it just seems that there's enough ways for Squirtle to compete with Zelda to give him the advantage over her where others can't (all IMO)

Edit3
no but you gave an equal number of reasons olimar is better as I did that sonic does better and 90% of the boards agrees it should be even... no idea what the logic is for looking at equal numbers of evidence on both sides and then arbitrarily picking one.
I think I gave enough facts to give Olimar the advantage. It swayed IvanEva's mind towards Olimar and no-one but you in this thread has combated it. Until some other people address this topic too, or the matchup is changed on his chart, I don't want to get into that arguement again, please.
 

Vaul

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ok, your dk section is very off and i'm going to try to fix it.

as of right now


large advantages : Jiggs, C. Falcon, Samus, Sonic, metaknight, lucas, ness if infinites are kept as legal (cargo trap by ledge is inescapable)

disadvantage: wario, luigi, fox, kirby (maybe on kirby, need to play him more, he dies quick, might be neutral)

Large disadvantage: IC, DDD

if you have any questions tell me, and since every person who mains a character i put in large disadvantage will question this, i'll explain my reasoning behind those characters now

samus - offline dk has a great approach that can get around samus's weak projectile spam, samus is also floaty, which is not good vs dk

sonic - downb forces him into the air, in which case sonic is not much faster than dk. dk lives forever, and will not die until very late (170-230) bair, fair, and nair do not go through dk's upb, so you'd have to get off a spring gimp, which is very difficult vs a relatively fast horizontal recovery
Sigh....

First off let me state that I'm one of the proud few who mains both Samus and DK (original and underrated FTW). I've posted on both boards, albeit not very much, as I spend most of my time on SWF elsewhere. I like to consider myself has having a 'good' (not great) DK and Samus. I know you're quite the benefactor of the DK scene and have earned yourself quite a reputation for your skills; you've definitely got my respect on that front. But here's a little side point: When did you actually play Hugs? From his vids prior to May (for the most part), I can soundly say I really wasn't that impressed, and if I had to I would list Hylian as currently the better Samus competitor (although apparently he's in IC and Pika La La Land now). Hugs was ****ing awesome in Melee, but I have a feeling your using his Samus as the personifcation of all that a Samus could be and that you've mastered your game to beat his Samus, a character of which he has been playing for about 4 months, assuming he still mains her. I know I don't have any reputation or a name for myself that I could use to seemingly justify my opinion, but your free to receive my claims or dismiss them. If Hugs (or you, for that matter) wants to play my Samus for some odd reason, fine, I really don't care either way, and will backup my 'talkin' of sh*t' as much as possible...even though I really don't think my oratory is fecal in nature.

With that in mind, I'm going to assume you do not play Samus frequently, if at all aside from Hugs. I'm basing this on your two-lined 'explanation' (although you do go into detail later when people start challenging you). Unlike many others, I acknowledge the effectiveness of DK's approach. UpB is amazing. DownB is amazing. Ftilt and dtilt are amazing. Aerial DK punch is amazing. And bair, above all, is godliness. Against many characters, DK players can rest assured that their approach will be relatively safe and worth it.

But I believe you're severely underestimating Samus.

Although it is far too early to tell, IMO ISJR will become a pivotal ascept of Samus's aerial game, as she can successfully link dairs, fairs, uairs and nairs (not to mention the ISJR'ed zair, which is even better than normal autocancelling) with one another for major comboage. In addition, she is now capable of utilizing her bair regularly; it is no longer a situational kill move. In comparison, so far I have only found DK's bair to be truly useful on a regularly basis, and even still, it's improvement from normal autocanceling is menial as far as I can tell. Although he can technically apply this for almost all his aerials, their extensive animation and limited usability continues to designate them as a situational role in DKs arsenal. Please keep this in mind when evaluating DK vs Samus.

Unless Samus is in close quarters with DK (a good Samus is a defensive Samus), DK's approach is in no way unquestionably superior to Samus's 'weak' projectile game. The power of the super missles may have been lost, but she now has new alternatives to relying on them. For the sake of brevity I'm not going to go into great detail on every one of her long distance options, but I will summarize it by saying that Missle Canceling, when done efficiently, persistently, and consistantly, will always put DK on the defensive before he can utilize his approach methods. Whether super or homing, missiles are still pivotal to Samus. As I'm sure you're well aware, zairing is glorious for Samus/horrible for DK as a means of both interrupting his approach and approaching safely with her. But I noticed you simply dismissed this as effective by stating that 'DK can just roll and punish' when she zairs. This is too much of a generalization, not to mention Samus is almost NEVER going to be spamming zair when she's in range of DK; god forbid she actually did, it still has NO lag on landing whatsoever, or she could even just SJR and do it again. Samus isn't going to confront DK as a means of victory, for she WILL be absolutely destroyed if DK lands the big guns. In sum on distanced fighting, Samus has MCing, zair, charge shot (set up perfectly by a landing zair), dash grabbing, and laying bombs between herself and DK to control the pace of the match. You may claim this can be countered by using timely Spinning Kongs and approaching DK Punches, but the vast majority of the time her ranged attacks WILL go through.

Up front and personal is of course going to be a different story. In addition to his anti-air game, hand to hand combat is DK's bread and butter. But with Samus keeping defensive, DK's AMAZING spacing abilities (ftilt dtilt, bairs upB downB etc) are now only situational. With DK forced to approach instead of waiting to counter another's approach and punishing them, this matchup is going to be much different from the rest of the cast for both characters. With the obvious exception of bair, Samus will win in the air, and zair is a great response to a DK who spams bair (unfortunately most do, and with good reason). But if DK's on the ground, Samus's safe options are limited. Here's where ISJR comes into play and can potentially become her godsend for these hairy close quarters situations. A good Samus who can consistently ISJR will force you to confront a wall of high priority fairs and uairs. Her number one priority should be getting DK into the air as much as humanely possible, and this is accomplished with fair, dair, uair, and upB (more on that in a bit). DK simply does not have a reliable answer to quick characters approaching from below, and Samus is no exception. There's a popular misconception that Samus's attacks are slow to come out and she's sluggish in the air. Although she is floaty, she can chase an aerial opponent with relative ease, compliments of her aerial range and priority. If you've fought a Samus who did not get you into the air very often, you got off easy. And should Samus still find herself on the ground face to face with DK, she should always seek to change that status ASAP. Unless the DK is a rolling spammer, dash grab is an essential tool against DK, as it actually is able to outrange the vast majority of DK's attacks (with the exception of DK's downB, and although I'm not exactly sure about his ftilt, I know a pivot grab definitely gets the job done). Since you answered that her zair can simply be avoided by rolling, I'm going to assume you do this quite often. This is where Samus's greatest defensive response comes into play: UpB out of shield. Extremely fast, very high priority, large hitbox which sucks opponents in and fair knockback at mid to high percents to ensure safe landing. Whenever in this sticky situation, UpB should not just be spamed, it should be abused to no other degree.

To conclude this rant, I'll say that Samus's largest downfall against DK is his massive weight and her lack of reliable KO moves. But there is still hope for Samus in this matchup when it comes to finishing eachother off. Despite being floaty, she's heavy. Real heavy. With her amazing and virtually ungimpable (yea thats right, I said it) recovery and vast array of options to do so, for DK to get a kill that is not a Star KO will be extremely difficult. I am fully aware that DK is a superb edgeguarder and that his spikes, multiple bairs, and ledge stalling are absolute godliness. But DK simply is not going to be able to effectively use these on Samus in comparison to the majority of the cast. Concerning that, with good DI, her floatiness, bombs, multiple missles, superb UpB and having the greatest tether in the game, the idea of gimping her is much, MUCH easier said than done. Samus herself is also a magnificent edgeguarder. Specifically for DK, her best options are chased zairing off the stage, landing a spike from above (though it's certainly more difficult than people realize), or even better, a method I'm sure you haven't yet confronted, effectively spaming Bomb Canceling to protect the ledge. DK's best option for return is to use UpB with the intention of sweetspotting the ledge. Samus responds to this by using her bomb tactics (of which includes rolling to the very edge of the stage in morph ball mode, laying a mine WITHOUT jumping in the air AND without leaving morph ball mode, and being able to immediately lay another off the ledge while safely returning to the stage and repeating). Ledge stallers and those who have a tendency to constantly assess their ledge hop options beware: bombs have enough hit stun to let DK fall too far to recover vertically. You'd be surprised at how effective this is.

Wow, that was a bit longer than I had intended. But you get my point (hopefully). Just know that I'm not slamming you or Hugs in anyway and that you both have my respect for being really f*ckin' good at what you do; you're definitely one of the DK community's most prized tournament heroes (what that exactly curtails is up to your interpretation). But basically all I'm seeking is for you to reconsider your stance on Samus before adamantly claiming that DK easily counters Samus. Believe it or not, in actuality this is a very, very close matchup. Samus should never, ever be idle for even a moment. She must make as much space between her and DK as possible and ALWAYS utilize some sort of projectile for shield pressure. Although this ranged game puts DK at a severe disadvantage (especially on stages without key platforms), as long as DK is able to exploit any of Samus's mistakes, his absurd KO ability will always make up for his need to continually approach at Samus's discretion. Whether one character has a slight advantage over the other is hard to tell at this point. Yet even still it would be menial at best and victories/losses between two players of 'equal' skill should almost always go back and forth.

EDIT: Add TL and Sheik to your 'disadvantage' list. I mean, DK does have disadvantages, right?

Regarding DK vs Sonic:
Spinshotting solves the issue concerning aerial speed for Sonic.
And you mean side B which pops him up into the air at first.
I believe itsbigfoot was referring to DK's downB, Ground Pound, which 'pops' an approaching Sonic into the air. Truth is DK has a lot of options vs Sonic defensively. When Sonic isn't in the air, upB (Spinning Kong, a la SA frames and priority) and downB are a great response to Sonic's ground approach, which is very often. I'm not going to get into detail here, but I will say that matchup is fairly close, although DK still has the slight advantage with the obscene kill power (and gimping DK in this game is much easier said than done).
 

itsthebigfoot

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Lucario definitely doesn't have a disadvantage against DK. Not only is DK very, very easy to combo, with his weight and size, but also easy to gimp with his horrible vertical recovery. Lucario is a very good gimping character. His dair stage spikes very well, his bthrow has a decent amount of downward momentum and with fair chains followed by a dair, DK can get killed by as low as 60ish.
ok,
1. dk is not nearly as easy to gimp as you assume, the only characters that can consistently hit him out of upb are marth, dedede, yoshi (eggs) falco (laser, not an aerial), wolf, ike, pit and olimar. the rest get out ranged and out prioritized by the upb
2. don't rely on a stage spike, they can come in high, they can sweetspot the ledge before you hit them, and they can tech the wall. and dk is not going to come in low enough to be stage spiked by lucarios dair
3. i guess he could kill at 60 if he was at 200+, but the likelihood of that is low, especially considering dk kills lucario at low percents, which is my main point that nobody has addressed

@itsthebigfoot:

MK-I still think if he spaces the disjoint correctly, it will be tough to hit him. I see your point though. I think if DK did have an advantage here it wouldn't be a large one like you originally said.

Lucario-Only if he let's you get close. He should be able to keep you away with his disjoints to survive a little longer. Also, unless he gets hit by a charge punch, I don't think he'll die THAT fast. He also doesn't have to be above 100% to kill. I'd test his KO percents on DK at 70%, but I don't have a copy of Brawl with me at the moment to do it.

Pikachu-He has plenty of kill moves. Usmash, fsmash, nair, dair, uair, thunder all KO well. Usmash to thunder can kill even Bowser at about 100% or lower. Dsmash also outprioritizes DK's bair.

Snake-Sorry, I made a mistake here. DK is indeed heavier than Snake but only slightly (i.e. Snake is third after Bowser & DK). After watching some videos & doing some research into both characters, I now think this match is even.

G&W-After reading Mr. Escalator's post, I find this match to be even as well.
MK - i can't explain the exact advantage, but i can tell you i've started looking forward to metaknight when going into tournaments. dk exploits mks weaknesses and nullifies most of his strengths. dk hits hard, which hurts light characters like metaknight, dk is extremely heavy, and metaknights kill moves are somewhat limited and underpowered (he can kill reliably, but not until higher percents) dk's upb beats out most characters gimps, mk, while he doesn't exactly rely on gimps, isn't as good without gimping. dk has some of the best range in the game on his ftilt and fsmash, metaknight does not do as well when he is outranged (snake and marth are not good matchups for him, has similar advantages). there isn't one brokenly good technique that beats out metaknight, but dk takes advantage of all of mks weaknesses and isnt as affected by his strengths. i personally believe that heavy characters do well against metaknight, which is bacled up in my mind by the local bowser player regularly beating most of my metaknight friends, the snake players who regularly beat better metaknights in tournament, and my own 9-0 record vs several good metaknights out here. heavy with range is not good for metaknight

lucario - fsmash and usmash kill at the same percents as the punch, and one quick kill can turn the tide of the match relatively quick, especially against lucario, who does need fairly high percents to kill well. against the lucarios ive played it is fairly even up until i get the quick kill, and after that i usually end up winning with one clean stock left. he doesnt have to consistently kill low, but one low kill is enough to put the match in your favor, and dk is very good at that

pika - bowser is 4th heaviest after snake, dk, and dedede (in that order), so dk will live slightly longer than the 100% mark. now, when i say pikachu does not have a reliable kill move, this is what i mean, thunder kills well when it hits with the very top, or when they hit the part around pikachu, both spots are easily avoidable with good DI and/or luck and a little knowledge, so you will see several pikachu matches where the pikachu will hit with 7-8 thunders before hitting those spots. nair, dair, and uair all get beaten by dks upb. fsmash is close to reliable, but i usually end up in the corner of the screen and can easily make it back to the stage. usmash is just plain weird, sometimes its great, sometimes it does next to nothing, both times, it is not strong enough to kill dk, who is extremely heavy at reasonable percents. dsmash out prioritizes bair, but not ftilt, fsmash, or the punch, which can be used for spacing.

snake - dk has the option to kill with a grab at 40% that puts this at advantage dk, its not much of an advantage, but its enough that the dks around here beat a lot of the snakes (given, the better snakes do beat the average dk) after playing ajax (the second best behind dsf around here) frequently i can tell you that dk does have an advantage, he lives longer (one of two that can say that), he has the same range, and his tilts have the same priority (hard to believe, but i've walked across smashville by canceling out his ftilt with the back of my utilt, the priority is exactly the same, dks ftilt cancels snakes utilt, dks utilt cancels snakes ftilt, and i havent tried dtilt)
 

hizzlum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FaV6oizNnQ
The chart should be updated soon, a lot of disscussion that has been had in this thread could help create a better match-up chart and more accurate views on all the match-ups in brawl, which influence tiers and tournament play(counterpicking a character)
 

Vaul

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
136
Location
Northeast
pika - bowser is 4th heaviest after snake, dk, and dedede (in that order), so dk will live slightly longer than the 100% mark. now, when i say pikachu does not have a reliable kill move, this is what i mean, thunder kills well when it hits with the very top, or when they hit the part around pikachu, both spots are easily avoidable with good DI and/or luck and a little knowledge, so you will see several pikachu matches where the pikachu will hit with 7-8 thunders before hitting those spots. nair, dair, and uair all get beaten by dks upb. fsmash is close to reliable, but i usually end up in the corner of the screen and can easily make it back to the stage. usmash is just plain weird, sometimes its great, sometimes it does next to nothing, both times, it is not strong enough to kill dk, who is extremely heavy at reasonable percents. dsmash out prioritizes bair, but not ftilt, fsmash, or the punch, which can be used for spacing.
I'm actually genuinely sorry for challenging you again, but after reading this I'm beginning to doubt your knowledge of certain characters. I'm assuming you don't know what Pika's Quick Attack Canceling is. Example:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ypU2DU0Ln0w

After seeing that, how can you legitimately claim that DK has an advantage over Pika?
 
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