Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[talkingbeatles]

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I would say Zelda has the upper hand, and Falcon definitely has a disadvantage against Squirtle. Hell at least a neutral, but I'd actually argue that too.

 

[IvanEva]

Yeah, I'll definitely be changing it so that Zelda > Squirtle. Her up-smash is great against the jump happy Squirtle. Samus < Sonic and several others will be changed soon as well.

No, Ganondorf isn't underrepresented (at least I'll believe so until I see a good one show me otherwise), he's just too **** slow at everything to have an advantage on anyone. Some of his aerials are pretty good and his stomp is made of 100% beef but they're all pretty easy to block and punish and he doesn't have the aerial manuverability to make up for it.

Which Ness match-up do you disagree with (to the guy a bit above)? At a cursory glance, they all look fairly good to me.

For the DDD >> Bowser dealie: DeDeDe's approach on Bowser isn't good enough to merit a big advantage. Bowser's forward tilt is better than Dedede's, just a tad shorter (err, is it shorter?). I'll look into it a bit more though.

Again, my sincerest apologies for being so **** slow on updating this last little while. Summer + broken computer + plenty of Brawl + Bioshock (great game - if you have a PC go and play it. NOW!) + work + side projects + finishing up Pikmin 2 + band (I play ocarina in a small concert band) + general laziness = me being terrible at keeping up with everything.

I got finished getting Photoshop, now to get the chart from my old computer...

EDIT: I still don't get why **** is censored. Just how conservative/religious are the people who run Smashboards? It's because of people like that that Snake can't use his knife to slit some throats in Brawl...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Correction, Lucario has range that can almost match Marth. Shield breaker outranges all of your ground moves except F-smash (which it ties with and outspeeds), and fair and nair outrange all of your aerials (only a little bit mind you). And Marth really has no problems dealing with projectiles, considering that all of his attacks stop them or just plain go through them. And if you are approaching from behind it, then he'll just shield it and then dancingblade afterwards.

Aura sphere isn't used for causing damage, it's used for shutting down enemy approaches. Marth can sit back and jab aura spheres all day while Lucario slowly closes in or retreats. Eventually you're going to have to dodge around them or avoid them if you want to attack, since their hitboxes stay out for so long. Also, Aura sphere is used when an opponent is coming down to the ground from the air. Basically if it's timed right, it severely limits their options as they land. Shield breaker isn't really a threat for Lucario at all. Sure, it has range, but it takes forever to start and has horrible lag. A single shield breaker isn't even that scary to be hit by, and a partially charged one isn't that much better. All Lucario really needs to do is foxtrot backwards and throw an aura sphere at Marth as soon as he sees shield breaker coming. Because if it's spacing you're talking about, Marth is not going to be using Shield breaker at close range, and a fox trot gets you out of that attacking range without much problem. If Marth IS a bit closer, then Lucario has plenty of room to just roll around it. Dancing blade is a threat, but it also has lag and can be punished with patient shielding.

Marth has no problems approaching Lucario. He just has to use ground approaches instead of aerial ones. Walking foward and d-tilt/f-tilting is actually very effective and very safe. And while your f-smash may have the great range, it's not exactly the fastest, or most suprising move. Although it's low ending lag does make it hard to punish, it's still not really "keeping him at bay" as you said.
Marth gimps better and arguably has more control of the field because of his better speed. Seriously, aurasphere is not a problem for Marth and doesn't really stop him. The lingering hitboxes is a good point though, and that is a bit of a pain to get around, but the same can be said of Marth's f-tilt and d-tilt (and Side B spam), except they do more damage and offer more shield pressure.
Only Marth has a better out of shield game, and is very good at punishing dodges, by simply spamming side B. If he sees a dodge, start a side B. If he sees you roll towards him, turn around and side B. If you roll away, run foward and...side B. Seriously, that thing just eats dodges for breakfast, and tacks on 16% while I'm on the subject.

Walking up to Lucario and approaching with Ftilt or Dtilt is a terrible idea. Lucario's roll or even side dodge gets him right behind/in front of Marth and able to punish with a grab or AAA combo perfectly after dodging Ftilt. Dtilt is a bit faster and harder to punish, but it's not going to hit him if he's doing his regular shorthopped Fair>Nair combo. Lucario's own Ftilt also clanks and protects him from those attacks due to the amount of time it stays out, same for Dtilt. Granted that they start up slower than Marth's, but they have less lag. And if he fears a dancing blade punish to his roll, Lucario can just...shield...when he expects an attack. It's not like Marth's grabs actually lead into anything, unlike Lucario's own up and down throws, both of which put the opponent in an excellent position for an aerial tech chase.
And Marth's tilts do not do more damage than Lucario's. At 50%, Lucario's Ftilt already does 13%. At 100%, it does 15% every hit. They don't offer more shield pressure either, since they don't linger (meaning that if they whiff, they really whiff.) and they don't multi-hit like Lucario's Ftilt (which actually can't be properly powershielded due to the double-hitting nature of the attack.) and they have more lag, allowing shielding opponents more time to reposition themselves.
No good Lucario just spams Fsmash on its own. Try approaching Lucario during an AS>Fsmash>AS>Fsmash etc. string. There is hardly any time amidst all the lingering hitboxes to close in any other way than by jumping, and even then, Lucario's Fsmash often hits shorthopping opponents due to its width. Lucario can also retreat while he's doing this by stutter-stepping, which really makes it hard to close in because of the constant change of spacing. (Fsmash's hitbox comes out at 24 frames and stays out for 8 frames. He then has 12 frames of lag before he can do another action. So if Fsmash didn't hit, Marth has 12 frames to close in from that distance and attack him before he launches an aura sphere or rolls/follows up with whatever. The only attack that Marth has that reaches beyond that point is shield breaker, which doesn't have a disjointed hitbox unless it's fully charged, and since Marth's Fsmash starts in 10 frames and is much faster than an uncharged shield breaker...you're not going to punish that Fsmash unless you perfect shielded or side dodged it perfectly. And because it has so much range, you can't roll past Lucario either.)[\QUOTE]

Which is why Marth players honestly shouldn't be dodging that much, considering his out of shield game is better 99% of the time. Instead of spotdodging or rolling out of attack strings, he should be up Bing (works behind him too) through them. Instead of rolling to escape pressure games, he should just drop his shield and side B, or jump backwards out of his shield and airdodge. Marth's defensive game is actually better than Lucario's.

Marth's defense game isn't better than Lucario's. Up B aside, he doesn't have the lingering hitboxes, excellent side dodge, or true combos that make Lucario's defensive game so good. He also doesn't have an annoying projectile, which is critical to Lucario's defensive game.
The thing about Lucario's defense is that a good player will almost constantly be covering himself with Aura, with very few windows for the opponent to attack inbetween. Marth can attack fast and hard, but once again, his single fast hitboxes don't cover him as well as Lucario's attacks do.

And one more point that I'd like to bring up is that Marth kills a lot sooner than most characters, not only because of his edgeguarding, but because of how strong his aerials are and how easy it is to refresh them (two side B strings is 8 attacks!). So killing Lucario early with a nair or fair is not that hard, and even if Lucario does live to a high percent, one tipped downsmash, or even the up version of the side B combo, is enough to take him out.

Lucario also doesn't have too much problem refreshing his attacks either, since he has one of the fastest grab attacks in the game, and usually uses his AAA combo a lot too. It also happens that his primary damage-dealing moves are NOT his primary KO moves (Dair, Ftilt, various combos) so his smash attacks and aura sphere are usually quite fresh. Although yes, Marth does KO sooner in general due to his tippers and powerful aerials. Marth is also more vulnerable to edgeguarding than Lucario is, so while Lucario gets KOed by Marth outright, Lucario has a easier time gimping Marth because he can go so much further off the stage without having to worry about SDing. When it comes to returning to the stage, Lucario's Fair stays out for a whoppin 15 frames. If Lucario uses Fair outside of Marth's Fair range, he'll still hit him because the hitbox of Fair will be out during the time it takes for Marth to start his attack, unless it's like...impeccably timed.

And then get faired after the airdodge because it ends before the airdodge does.

So? Lucario's aerials do this too.
F-air
Complete on: 30
Hitbox out on: 7
Hitbox in on: 22
Except that Lucario's aerials actually true combo into each other, so the opponent can't fast-fall the air dodge to reach the ground before you can Fair them again.

True, but if he DI's away he can avoid the fair>dair combo, and the fair>nair combo won't be killing him...until he's at a high% in which the DI will let him escape the nair.

Still does a lot of damage though, and Lucario can always just do Fair instead of Nair, which doesn't knock back as far and leads to another Fair, which if air dodged leads to Dair or Nair...

Umm..which moves are you talking about? F-tilt, D-tilt, and Fair are completely safe on block. He has no problems pressuring with just these moves, and if he wants to be fancy, Lucario's not fast enough to punish a well spaced shieldbreaker, so he could use that too.
Side B, d-tilt, and shieldbreaker do not require such precision, and are quite spamable.
And at the same time Lucario can't punish a whiffed shieldbreaker, because by the time Lucario gets in range to attack Marth can move again. All you're really saying is that Marth can't throw out random F-smashes like Lucario can, but it's not like he needs to when he has much better moves to randomly throw out.

Not on block, on roll. Lucario's roll is like a spot dodge, with invincibility frames coming out on frame 2, and it's incredibly fast to finish as well. Dodging Ftilt leaves Lucario room to hit with any fist attack. Fair isn't really that safe on block, even though it auto-cancels it can still be shield grabbed just like every other aerial in the game. Lucario is plenty fast enough to punish the lag at the end of shield breaker, especially if he rolls. I really wish someone would get frame data for shield breaker, because I can't find any to back this up, but I'm sure of it. I've been punished many times while using Marth's shield breaker because it has such awful ending lag.

And Marth's f-smash also comes out much faster than Lucario's if you want to put it that way, so Marth can punish a whiffed attack with a f-smash, while Lucario can't. See what I did there?

Lucario doesn't punish with his Fsmash, he traps people with them. Marth can't really do that as well. Besides, Lucario's Ftilt starts just as fast as Marth's Fsmash and is safer on block. And it normally does more damage than an untippered Marth Fsmash.

Marth has his killing power all the time. Blow for Blow, side B beats out everything you said, doing 16-21%, and counting as four seperate moves in the move decay.

Lucario has his chain grab when he's below 50%, and it takes Marth up to 40% with no effort at the start of a stock, then leads into an aerial techchase.

And while killing Lucario with a f-smash at 90 is cool and all, I'd gladly get him up another 40% if it means every attack I have (besides d-tilt and jab), will get him off the stage or kill him.

At this point in time, you do realize that Lucario's Fsmash/Aurasphere/Double Team KOs you at 80%, and his Dair, Ftilt, and Aura Sphere all deal around 22% per hit? On top of that, pretty much every attack that he has will send you flying off the stage for edgeguarding.

But you're forgetting one very important thing. If the Marth player is actually good...he'll space the attack. If you dodge it, the only move you can reach with is f-smash (yes, shieldbreaker has that much range), but your f-smash is too slow to punish him. Shield breaker has very little ending lag btw. If you roll behind him, he has time to roll away himself, or up B or side B you if he expects you to attack him afterwards (both of which come out faster than most of your attacks). Maybe you've been playing bad Marths or something, because Marth's attacks are only safe when properly spaced. But when the Marth is actually good at spacing, he's a beast.

Shield breaker seems to have a lot more ending lag than you're making it look like. I need frame data for this move badly. It also has a very linear hitbox. Lucario can actually avoid it with a shorthop, and shorthops lead into Fair combos.

True, but Marth can side B spike people, footstool jump to dair, reverse up B edgeguard to stage spike opponents, or nair to just plain kill them at that distance. I've also recoverd from under stages by using shield breaker, second jump, side B, up B, in that order. And while Lucario can do that cool wall cling with his up B, he can be hit out of it very easily, while Marth's up B is very hard to edgeguard because of it's invincible start up, it's large attack range, it's large sweetspot range, it's speed, and it's high knockback (for an up B anyway).

Well the thing about the wall cling is that once you hit the wall, you can immediately jump off it and air dodge, making him a lot harder to hit than you'd think. Marth's Shield breaker recovery is quite cool, but what makes Lucario such a good edge guarder is that he can follow the opponent right off the stage (almost into the magnifying glass) Fair them out of their second jump, Fair them again, and then still recover. His Dair is also great because of the way it hangs in the air without hindering his recovery. So he can just hover there and block the opponent's way. He doesn't have the raw KO power than Marth does, but he gets a bit more flexibility when it comes to gimping.

And Lucario can't kill an opponent with a fair from at the ledge at 120%, or a bair or nair at even less. Or up B through their up B. Marth's edgeguarding is done closer to the ledge, but that doesn't make it worse in any way. Just like Lucario, all of his aerials tear through other characters up Bs. But unlike Lucario, All of his aerials have killing power.

Bair, Uair and Dair all have decent killing power at the edge, especially Bair. And they stay out for longer. Lucario's back throw also has the nice property of having almost no ending lag and a very horizontal launch, meaning he can follow the opponent off the edge before they can even jump. He also has Aura sphere to help his edgeguarding out tremendously, and it really does help a lot. He can even charge it at the ledge, preventing an opponent from getting up with anything other than a ledge roll or a ledgedrop, (although this tactic requires a large aura). And of course, he's floatier and can stay airborn for longer, making it easier for him to hit people out of air dodges.

Most top Lucario players agree that he's an even match up for Marth, but most Marth players seem to think otherwise. Although speaking from experience, I honestly believe it's an even match up. Metaknight, Snake and Lucario are the only characters who have hitboxes that can deal with Marth's own.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm bout to end this debate.

Marth is superior to Lucario.

Yeah, I'm an *******.

But in regards to the match-up I really don't give a **** anymore. Slight advantage or disadvantage or neutral it's still a close match-up. The only thing I hate NESSBOUNDER is that you act as though Lucario has NO weaknesses, when he does.

EDit: You are incorrect BTW. Quite a few characters have virtually equal range to Marth or outrange him. Which isn't a huge feat cosidering the fact that HIS RANGE WAS REDUCED.

****. People act like it's SUCH a big deal if they have compareable range to Marth.

News flash.

It isn't.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Those combos you stated are escapable with DI, as shown in this thread.http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036.
Tell me one of Lucario's moves that kills at 50% at the center of a stage.
Marth has been actually test at 72% in the middle of FD, http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=143923,
Shieldbreaker has more range than lucario's fsmash.
Marth had the best edge game in melee(along with shiek) and only is surpassed by MK in brawl. And obviously you don't know about the new marth technique called vertical spacing, which creates a tipper dair every time at has 100 % accuracy rate when it is done(the opponent suffers from the stun of the foot stool)http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Vertical_spacing if you want to learn how to be good with marth for low % all the time. The pros in melee also have created many marth edgeguarding techniques that prove to be extremly effective and they get the job done (bair edgeguard,triple fair off the stage edge guard,aerial+reverse b-up,daired ledge,ken combo(vertical spacing allows ken combos to be done much easier)fair to last frames bair to name a few). Marth has more versatile aerials that allow him abilities of great edgeguarding that was known since early melee, his aerials produce extremly effective kills and give him multiple options depending on the situation.

Fair>Nair or Fair>Fair aren't escapable with DI. It's been tested extensively and they're not escapable combos. Fair>Dair is escapable, but the attack starts faster than the human reacton time, so it's unlikely that it's going to be Di'd unless the Lucario user telegraphed it horribly.

Are you talking about Marth's fully charged tippered shield breaker? Because that's not an attack you'll land in a practical match. And besides, Lucario KOs at 40% with Fsmash when he's at 170% and two stocks behind. So in a sense, yes he does.

That vertical spacing thing involves a footstool jump to work. Everyone knows that those are hard to time and don't work if the opponent is air dodging or using an attack (or an up B.)

And stop comparing Melee Marth to Brawl Marth. Melee is very different to Brawl. And Lucario's aerials are more versatile. Their hitboxes stay out for much longer and they have better frame times over all (with an exception for Bair and Nair)

Ken combo doesn't work for Marth any more, because you can just air dodge between Fairs.

and so on, so forth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stop talking about this match-up plz.

It's getting old fast.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'm bout to end this debate.

Marth is superior to Lucario.

Yeah, I'm an *******.

But in regards to the match-up I really don't give a **** anymore. Slight advantage or disadvantage or neutral it's still a close match-up. The only thing I hate NESSBOUNDER is that you act as though Lucario has NO weaknesses, when he does.

EDit: You are incorrect BTW. Quite a few characters have virtually equal range to Marth or outrange him. Which isn't a huge feat cosidering the fact that HIS RANGE WAS REDUCED.

****. People act like it's SUCH a big deal if they have compareable range to Marth.

News flash.

It isn't.

You'rewrongi'mright.

And Lucario does have weaknesses, they are all just extremely minor, and some of them (such as floatiness) are subjective, as they actually help his game sometimes.

The one major weakness that Lucario has is his recovery. That's it. And even then, good Lucario players don't seem to find this an issue and have come up with plenty of ways to deal with it, unlike others with more severe recovery weaknesses such as Ivysaur, Olimar and Ike. He doesn't have a lack of KO power, he doesn't have speed issues, he doesn't have blind spots, he doesn't suffer from any particularly crushing chain grabs against him, and has plenty of opponents who he can chain grab. He doesn't have problems with spacing, he can play defensive, offensive, both, and can deal with campers. He has both an excellent ground game and an excellent aerial game, great throws, great frame data, mind games coming out of his ears, and real combos.

Lucario is an extremely solid character. His one shining point is his lack of all around weaknesses. He is more Mario-like than Mario in terms of balance.

And a lot of his so-called "weaknesses" are also negated once he takes some damage.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Stop talking about this match-up plz.

It's getting old fast.

No u.

10dancingLucarios

 

[Emblem Lord]

He is also average in running speed, and his attacks aren't that fast for the most part aside from his jab, Dair, and Nair. Slow smashes. Doesn't become a huge threat until high damage which is blessing and a curse. It means That while he has the potential to bring the pain, he could be killed before he gets the chance.

W/e.

The debate is over. Also don't debate hizzlum. He says random **** that's untrue and constantly references Melee Marth.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

He is also average in running speed, and his attacks aren't that fast for the most part aside from his jab, Dair, and Nair. Slow smashes. Doesn't become a huge threat until high damage which is blessing and a curse. It means That while he has the potential to bring the pain, he could be killed before he gets the chance.

W/e.

The debate is over. Also don't debate hizzlum. He says random **** that's untrue and constantly references Melee Marth.

It's over for you maybe...

I could also argue the points you made there, but for some reason you're begrudging me from talking about it. Let me just say that if you'd payed more attention to how Lucario's aura modifier works, you'd realize that he becomes a threat a lot sooner than "high damage".

 

[Emblem Lord]

And when he is down a stock too of course. or even moderate damage Point is he needs to be getting ***** for it to kick in.

I'm begruding both sides, since this debate is old news and should have been over like a month ago IMO.

 

[Browny]

just a note EL

in your marth match up thread, as i expected, you dont mention lucarios projectile once. Ignoring his most powerful move is a pretty poor matchup analysis. you spare no time explaining how the projectiles of every other character pose a threat to marth. Who needs smashes, albeit slow ones, when aura sphere can KO marth quite reliably at 100%. dont try to jab them either, it ends in pain.

if you put so much weight on the projectiles of ROB, falco. at least consider the implications of aura sphere, and how it completely shuts down certain approaches. not to mention edgeguarding with AS is deadly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What?

Dude, I'm not going out of my way to underestimate Lucario. I probably just forgot to mention it. Calm the **** down. **** you irritate me. I know this is coming out of left field, but since you have become a part of this community you have done nothing but insult me, assume to know my motives for doing something or start debates with me when you clearly have less knowledge then me.

Get off my *** at least until you know your ****.

Also why the **** would ANYONE try to jab an AS at 100%?

"As I expected blah blah." Are you kidding me?

 

[Judge Judy]

Why would Mario be at a disadvantage to Sonic?

 

[DanGR]

If you want to include a better link to an Olimar matchup thread more recent IvanEva, here's one I've begun a weekly discussion about:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222

As of now, we've only got Link, but it's wario's week now, and it's going great!

Edit: crap, gotta change my avatar now. :/

 

[missingnomaster]

Falco should have a large advantage over Yoshi. He can reliably counter all of Yoshi's approaches, and Falco's moves are quick and have decent range, so Yoshi isn't going to be able to punish much either. Also, Lasers are really effective at stopping Yoshi's Bair, among other things.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Im seconding this, as a Yoshi user. His egg game is useless with the speed of his laser, Yoshi has trouble approaching with his usual Bair's because, as missisno said, lasers stop this, and the chain grab is hard for him to deal with.

Theres obviously more to this matchup, but Falco has such an easy time here that its sad.
:[

 

[fissionprime]

ddd really needs to be put at a large disadvantage against the climbers because chain grabs are almost useless and the ice climbers are generally able to disrupt ddd's moves because they are so laggy.

 

[missingnomaster]

Im seconding this, as a Yoshi user. His egg game is useless with the speed of his laser, Yoshi has trouble approaching with his usual Bair's because, as missisno said, lasers stop this, and the chain grab is hard for him to deal with.

Theres obviously more to this matchup, but Falco has such an easy time here that its sad.
:[

Maybe the person I played wasn't great at chaingrabs, but I could Nair out of the chaingrab after the first grab. He could still dash attack me though.

 

[fissionprime]

I could also argue the points you made there, but for some reason you're begrudging me from talking about it. Let me just say that if you'd payed more attention to how Lucario's aura modifier works, you'd realize that he becomes a threat a lot sooner than "high damage".

Absolutely true, Lucarios modifier really is more of an advantage than most people think. One of the best thing about him as a character is that he can get back in the match from a difficult position much better than most characters, his multiplier makes it possible to take more than one of your opponents lives with each of yours. So the multiplier ends up being very useful for building an advantage and coming back from a deficit.

 

[hizzlum]

Fair>Nair or Fair>Fair aren't escapable with DI. It's been tested extensively and they're not escapable combos. Fair>Dair is escapable, but the attack starts faster than the human reacton time, so it's unlikely that it's going to be Di'd unless the Lucario user telegraphed it horribly.

And besides, Lucario KOs at 40% with Fsmash when he's at 170%

That vertical spacing thing involves a footstool jump to work. Everyone knows that those are hard to time and don't work if the opponent is air dodging or using an attack (or an up B.)

Escapable with DI
weak Dash > U-tilt (High %)
Air: F-air > F-air > N-air/U-air/D-air (high %)
U-tilt > U-tilt (high %)
Thats what the true combo thread says,(http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036) so unless you post a video of lucario comboing someone with those moves, i wont believe your arguement on that.
If a lucario is at 170% your playing a really bad marth, in this matchup marth's objective is low % kills with edgeguards or tippers(which can be half stepped to get easier tippers all the time).
And have you ever tried to do a footstool jump? There difficult if you do not know how to time one, bt from a true competitive marth knows the footstoool jump is the basis of getting low % kills and so a marth player wil learn how to perform this effective technique.. and your arguement about the b-up doesent work in the situation beacuse lucario's b-up doesent do damaged and thus easily intercepted by a footstool. If they air dodge, marth can counter that with an nair, the nair counters air dodging and is great when incorporate with fairs beacuse the opponent airdodges an then gets hit with the second swipe of the nair which non tipper kills at 110%

 

[Tenki]

Why would Mario be at a disadvantage to Sonic?

Because obviously Sonic Next Gen > Mario Galaxies
lol jk

Maybe the current perception of the matches have Sonic winning against Mario, though I don't know where it comes from =|

I've had a few matches with a decent Mario (wifi, green connection, so it was basically playstyle vs playstyle), but it really boiled down to the players. There were times when I two stocked and times when they were close games and first-to-smash wins. I won't count that as an advantage for Sonic, because afaik, I was probably just the better player at the time and held a personal advantage since he probably hasn't fought a Sonic before, while I was used to uh... lvl 9 Mario, if that ... means anything.

Things that I remembered:
- Sonic can reach Mario/punish a fireball spam with one jump, and sometimes even Homing Attack... while he's shooting them >_>
- Fireballs stop Sonic's grounded spindashes (which aren't his only approach, just in case someone wants to pull that card)
- Mario F-tilt outprioritizes spindash rolls.
- Sonic can run+ shieldgrab Mario as he's landing if he tries WoP.
- FLUDD seems kinda useless against Sonic's recoveries: Spindash hop basically cuts through it, Spring invincibility frames and/or airdodge allows Sonic to go through the water without getting pushed :<
- Even if Mario pulls a meteor smash, Sonic will usually be able to recover, thanks to spring.

He didn't d-air enough, so I can't say much about its priority against Sonic's attacks.

-----------

Also, some things mentioned at AiB:
- Peach should be > Olimar ?
- Dedede >= Pit ?

 

[Judge Judy]

F.L.U.D.D. stops most of Sonic's approaches and I personally have never had much trouble against Sonic. Sonic dies at low percents and most of his atks are outprioitized by Mario's.

 

[Tenki]

F.L.U.D.D. stops most of Sonic's approaches and I personally have never had much trouble against Sonic. Sonic dies at low percents and most of his atks are outprioitized by Mario's.

Which approaches though? There's always that chance, especially with a character like Sonic, that the player didn't take advantage of alternative approaches that could have been more effective.

Examples (not a full list):
-Running
-Spindash (grounded)
-Homing Attack
-Spring(>d-air)
-Spinshot (superfast "full hop")

...among others.

I can only see FLUDD screwing up ground based and shorthop approaches. It doesn't have much of a vertical coverage, so it still leaves alot of options open.

 

[Judge Judy]

It stops everything if you can aim its tipper.

 

[Tenki]

=/

So I have this mental image of... FD, about 3/4 of the map away from each other.

Sonic charges a spindash and jumps (high jump/fast airspeed)
Mario starts FLUDD - starts to aim upwards
Sonic fastfalls and airdodges through FLUDD, landing behind Mario
'y halo there' - grabbed.

it has punishable lag, too, so I think you might be overestimating it as a defensive tool.

 

[Judge Judy]

That approach would be very obvious and correct spacing would pretty much eliminate that problem.

 

[Tenki]

lol. The way I see it, this could go on forever (sonic SDJ > FF> spring > d-air lagcancel... Spinshot>airdodge, spinshot>d-air...) and you can just keep shooting back with the spacing comment, and I can provide more approaches.

However, Mario generally has to charge FLUDD if it's to be of any use edgeguarding, and it's usually done at the beginning of a match. You're suggesting that a Mario player just waste it to stop an approach, or be stuck with an uncharged FLUDD for the majority of the game (since charging during a fight = interruptions)?
Either way, because of this or its ending lag, it doesn't seem very reliable. It sounds susceptible to baiting (and punishment) =/

if that's the way it is, I'd rather have a video of a Sonic vs Mario or actually have a Sonic and Mario main go against each other to compare actual application of their metagames against each other.

 

[Judge Judy]

F.L.U.D.D. is useful uncharged it's just usually perfered to have it charged in the first place.

 

[Judge Judy]

I must seriously be missing something here because I do not see how Mario is at a disadvantage to Sonic, maybe neutral but certainly not at a disadvantage.

 

[Tenki]

I tried searching the thread for any previous mention of Mario vs Sonic and found one post where someone put down Sonic > Mario and it remained undisputed. It was in early April though. One other person disagreed but had some stupid argument like bair>fireball owns Sonic (lol?). It didn't attract any attention or discussion though.

Anyway, I wonder how things hold up to current metagame. Sonic metagame's evolved alot since April, and I haven't fought any outstanding Mario players (decent ones, yes, but nothing surprising)

But, if you just put it stat for stat, I'll agree with a neutral. Mario's got a couple of moves that outprioritize Sonic, just like almost any of Sonic's matchups, but he also has a bunch of punishable moves (all of which can work as openings for a Sonic burst attack), and is susceptible to gimping.

 

[Judge Judy]

Ok, I'll settle for neutral for now but you don't seem to know a lot about Mario; you need to fight Boss, BO X7, Monk, and ???????

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lol. F.L.U.D.D. stopping Sonic's approaches?
hehe.

 

[Judge Judy]

Yah, F.L.U.D.D. tipper = PWNAGE

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sorry, I don't get to fight that many Marios, but what exactly do you mean by FLUDD "tipper." Does it have more knockback at the tip or something, or is that just referring to how much space it can cover when angled?

 

[???????]

Hitting the tip of head of your opponent with the F.L.U.D.D. gives drastically increased pushback; around fifty percent extra pushback (You must hit with the tip during the entire stream or pushback will be reduced; requires good aim and control with the F.L.U.D.D.).

*F.L.U.D.D. stops most mometum-based approaches*

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Cool. That must be pretty usefull for edgeguarding.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I really thought Pit had a slight problem with Kirbys, since he is pretty small, and it is hard to hit with arrows. I struggled against them a few times.
Pit might have normal status against Pika (or maybe a slight advantage over him), since he can reflect Thunder to hit Pika, while Pit himself is unharmed. However, the trouble that I had with Pikas is the common F-air to D-smash spam.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really thought Pit had a slight problem with Kirbys, since he is pretty small, and it is hard to hit with arrows. I struggled against them a few times.
Pit might have normal status against Pika (or maybe a slight advantage over him), since he can reflect Thunder to hit Pika, while Pit himself is unharmed. However, the trouble that I had with Pikas is the common F-air to D-smash spam.

Against Kirby...use your sword more?

Against Pika...learn to DI. His downsmash really isn't that great.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I don't see how Pikachu has a disadvantage against metaknight, D-Smash breaks through tornado and glide attack, and klinks the initial up-b attack. They have about the same range, and yes the f-tilt of metaknight can be overwhelming if used well (which nobody does) pikachu's spacing and well placed thunder jolts can disrupt a metaknights game. Quick attack cancelling can also annoy metaknights, but not that much since he can just tornado or jab to get out of it.