Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Conda]

He didn't "wreck" anyone. He won with one stock left with high damage on himself, and wolf SDd his second stock.
Snake wasn't even that good, at least in that match.

 

[Arde]

With so many conflicting anecdotal opinions, most of the match-ups should really have "?" on most of them.

Right now we should really be accepting only the most usual outcomes of certain character match-ups.

For example, in terms of Sonic vs Marth/MK - on paper, regarding approaches/priority/damage Marth/MK have better tools than Sonic.
Both Marth/MK need to kill Sonic with hard attacks on the stage most of the time. For Sonic, however, most of his kills will come from throwing/smacking Marth/MK off the stage and then gimping them.

Without doubt, Sonic has the better tools to gimp opps off the stage than either Marth/MK.

So on the stage, Marth/MK definitely have the advantage, especially MK with his ridiculous priority.
However, off the stage, the advantage goes to Sonic.

I'd say depending on the stages, Sonic is about even with Marth and some disadvantage against MK.

Although, due to MK's short range, Sonic's ftilt and utilt can be pretty useful whereas they're quite pathetic against Marth's superior range.

 

[Kiwikomix]

All right, as promised, here's my anti-Marth tirade.

This is sort of a Lucas-Marth matchup. A lot of these strategies are general and can be used by a lot of characters, but hopefully they will get people to realize that Marth's parade of blue check marks has to come to an end.

- Lucas has projectiles. Three of them. The one that's most useful in this case, however, is PK Fire. Despite Marth's rangy goodness, no attack he has can outrange a b-sticked PKF, especially since Marth has no projectile. The most Marth can do is jab it or shield it, and when Marth is swiping away PKFs, he isn't approaching or dealing you damage.
- All of you pro-Marth people out there will, I'm sure, tell me that Marth wins this matchup because of his superior range. This truly is almost all Marth has going for him, but he'll use this advantage to his... advantage. F-smash will be spammed, d-smash will be spammed, dash attacks will be spammed. For Lucas, this makes life a little difficult, but the factor to even it out is proper dodging. I'm sure I stress dodges and such way too much in my matchups, but it really is important to see what is coming and avoid letting it hit you. If Marth f-smashes you, he can only be in one place: right in front of you. So when he gets there, be prepared for this attack. If he runs right toward you from across the stage, expect two things: a dash attack or a jump into an aerial attack. Just spot-dodge it and respond with a jab combo or a quick sh'd aerial (nair)... Lucas' grab, while rangy, is a bit too laggy to work in this particular situation. With characters that have shorter dodges (Kirby, Jiggz, that's you), this is more difficult, but with a decently-timed dodger like Lucas, it's possible. The other option is to shield the dash attack, let it knock you back a few steps, then use its ending lag to grab Marth.
- Once Lucas has Marth off the edge, he shouldn't be letting him get back up. A spike probably wouldn't work too well against Marth's u-air, so just use PK Thunder as the ultimate edgeguarding projectile. If you wait until the Marth is just below the stage and about to perform his up-B, you can hit him with it and get him to bounce off the side of the stage or fly underneath it, depending on where you're at.
- If Marth knocks Lucas off the stage, he can make life difficult for him, but if Lucas zap jumps or PK Thunders at a safe distance from the stage, there's not much Marth can do about it. Also, don't forget Lucas' tether, which, though it has short range, is rarely expected by the opponent.

If you can't anticipate Marth's moves, you're screwed. However, even if you can't, characters like Lucas that can make Marth go on the defensive should at least be considered neutral. That's the same reason ROB has the advantage, right?

 

[Trapt497]

Wow this is great. thank you ivaneva for this. Im definetly saving this for future reference.

Just a couple first impressions I wanted to state. First off, Bowser shouldn't have so many x's. Bowser has more priority then a lot of people give him. Second, Luigi doesn't have enough checks imo. he is REALLY GOOD NOW!!! Even better than melee. His airials are even better, and his side B is great for many different situations. Third, wow, c. falcon only has one check OUCH!! Great post, but I think this is wayy too overgeneralized for the most part. I mean, one little thing about a character can change so much about how they fight against another. Its impossible to take every single detail into account. Basically, I agree with Arde saying too many "conflicting opinions" exist.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has more tools then Lucas and better tools overall.

Also Marth has a grab set-up that leads to guarunteed damage.

Marth > Lucas.

It's at least 6/4. Also, alot of the stuff you just said was hypothetical things, like if Lucas can predict Marth and such and such.

That's all well and good, but in match-up it is assumed that both players will play smart so saying things like that means nothing. Marth wins in the match-up because he will live longer usually, he doesn't have to work as hard, Lucas' projectile isn't hard to deal with, and he has better options.

Also Marth isn't the only character on that list that should have a bunch of blue checks.

Too bad I'm the only one in this thread arguing for a top tier character and I actually know WTF I'm talking about and I know all the match-ups pretty well for Marth.

Maybe I should just argue for Snake, Falco, and MK too?

Also Sonic isn't good. I mean he can get in his opponent's face all day, but it means nothing when he his attacks get beat out for free all day long.

Also, how could I forget.

Marth has a grab infinite on Lucas.

GGPO Lucas. >_>

 

[Endless Nightmares]

WHAOMGWTF grab infinite?

 

[Conda]

Lucas isn't that good people. I mean, he's high tier, but he's nothing too special.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He has his good points and his is good character overall.

But I do get the feeling that Lucas users in general underestimate Marth's ability to get past PK fire or do better at close range.

That and Levitas doesn't like me that much and generally disregards anything I have to say regarding Lucas vs Marth.

lol.

 

[hizzlum]

Emblem Lord should post a marth match up chart, like Ivan eva didd, Emblem lord knows marth really welland his match up thread is near perfect

 

[Dark Sonic]

WHAOMGWTF grab infinite?

Grab. Beat on them until they break out of the grab. Grab again.

This is seriously an infinite. Many people don't recognize it at first, but Ness and Lucas can't move before Marth does his next grab. Marth can end this infinite with a down smash for a guranteed KO. I did this at a tournament. It was extremely easy (just hold shield and mash A. It's that simple).

This just adds to the fact that the matchup was already in his favor before the infinite, but this thing is seriously easier than chaingrabbing Bowser with Shiek (in melee).

7-3, 8-2 for Marth please.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I love how Dark Sonic is always cool when he says something! :3
XD I wish I read this thread before I left, I was playing a Lucas for funs earlier and that would be a nifty trick.

>.> Although, if one person can do it, isn't it possible that other can do it too? That would certainly knock the PKKids down a few notches.

-DD

 

[Emblem Lord]

It seems feasible that other characters can do this, but people will have to test it.

That said, Levitas said that he tested it extensively and that from his conclusions only Marth can do this to the Mother boys.

 

[hizzlum]

What grab with marth is an infinite on the earthbounders?

 

[Browny]

i tested that marth infinite grab, it doesnt ALWAYS work, i got my brother to mash the buttons while i pummeled him and instantly shield grabbed him as soon as he got out but about 1/4 of times i tried it instead of ness/lucas falling out of the grab immediately into another grab he jumped right out of it, way out of range for another shield grab.

im sure once i find a certain DI direction i can use and mash the right buttons it is escapable

 

[Emblem Lord]

Both the Ness and Lucas boards are talking about this. There is no sure fire way to jump out everytime. And if Marth mashes the A button then they will be hard pressed to jump out.

Also if they jump out then Marth can usually nail a free aerial if he is fast enough.

Other good Ness/Lucas players have tested this and getting out is extremely inconsistent. At the very least Marth gets a free attack anytime he gets his hands on them which isnt good at all.

 

[Tom]

wat about roy

 

[DarkDragoon]

wat about roy

-Follows Tom from the CT Thread.-

Roy has t3h ph1r3.
You can't infinite t3h ph1r3.
-DD

 

[Trapt497]

Olimar is definitely worse than Lucario because of double team and edge hogging.

Woah, hold up. I main Lucario too, dude, and I want the best for him when the tiers come out, but Im not sure about this one.

I personally think Olimar has advantage over Lucario. Yeah, I suppose edge hogging would work really well, but every character can pretty much do that. And yeah, I know you can double team if a pikmin is latched onto you, which is great, but if you aren't close enough to him olimar, it will miss. Or if you are close enough, and if he is smart and is anticipating the DT then he can dodge roll or jump out of the way.

Also, test this out if you dont believe me, but I swear that a fully charged aura sphere, maybe even with some damage on you, WILL get easily stopped by a side B from olimar.

So I am for olimar having a check over lucario. But thats just me

 

[IvanEva]

Back to updating I go. My Lucas has been on the receiving end of those Marth grabs on many occasions and while they're really not all that terrible (poor overall damage, doesn't last very long) they sure are annoying. They're also, I find, the most hilarious chain grab ever. I mean, Marth's knees don't exactly look and sound all that painful. It'd be much funnier if it was Wario doing it. What he does to those boys when he grabs them...

 

[KaShank]

Just wondering why falco has a - against ness but a + against lucas? I mean I know they are not the same character but what is so different about them that that makes one a good match up and one a bad?

 

[Earthbound360]

There is a HUGE difference between Ness and Lucas. They play nothing alike. Comparing them to matchups is just dumb.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this!!!!

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Woah, hold up. I main Lucario too, dude, and I want the best for him when the tiers come out, but Im not sure about this one.

I personally think Olimar has advantage over Lucario. Yeah, I suppose edge hogging would work really well, but every character can pretty much do that. And yeah, I know you can double team if a pikmin is latched onto you, which is great, but if you aren't close enough to him olimar, it will miss. Or if you are close enough, and if he is smart and is anticipating the DT then he can dodge roll or jump out of the way.

Also, test this out if you dont believe me, but I swear that a fully charged aura sphere, maybe even with some damage on you, WILL get easily stopped by a side B from olimar.

So I am for olimar having a check over lucario. But thats just me

I agree with this statement. I've played both ends of this matchup as well. It's not a huge advantage though, probably a 6-4.

Countering the pikmin doesn't work more than once or twice a match. If Olimar notices that Lucario keeps mashing counter, he could bait you into it and grab you. Edgehogging works, but Lucario can't aggressively edgeguard Olimar as well as many characters can. But Olimar can aggressively edgeguard Lucario because his aerials have a lot more knockback.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Kirby > Peach
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Peach only has turnips to spam, and you can maneuver around them.
Peach's superior recovery is failed by Kirby's awesome aerials.

I think those reasons are enough.

-Ter

 

[YoungMoney702]

this isn't true for human players

 

[Trapt497]

I agree with this statement. I've played both ends of this matchup as well. It's not a huge advantage though, probably a 6-4.

Countering the pikmin doesn't work more than once or twice a match. If Olimar notices that Lucario keeps mashing counter, he could bait you into it and grab you. Edgehogging works, but Lucario can't aggressively edgeguard Olimar as well as many characters can. But Olimar can aggressively edgeguard Lucario because his aerials have a lot more knockback.

Yay you agree. Huzzah. Point for me.

Rapid, what advantages do you think Lucario has over olimar? especially since you believe it is not a huge advantage.

Oh, and, nice sig I laughed.

 

[IvanEva]

1. I can't exactly go off of other Sonics, since **** near all of them are garbage.

2. Marth using ftilt or utilt is begging to get grabbed, dtilt is annoying, but can be beaten/avoided. Every single thing Marth does, Sonic can answer to.

3. Marth dies super early, negating both Sonic's inability to kill, and Marth's good killing abilities.

4. Marth shuts down one thing, and one thing alone, of Sonic's game. SH aerials right in front of him, particularly nair.

5. Marth lags enough for Sonic to punish **** near anything ever.

6. If you're not using personal experience, then what ARE you using?

7. Actual play mechanics, spacing, zoning games, and the effectiveness with which they can use every technique all factor in on who can beat them, and who gets owned.

8. Perfect shield the lasers, uthrow utilt for the first easy bit of damage. Spring outta any combos, impossible to gimp, but able to gimp incredibly effectively, better movement, there's so much about that match-up that I love.

1. A sad fact. I myself currently fall into the 'crap Sonic player' category. At least for now...

2. Avoided? Yes. Beaten? No. All of Marth's attacks beat Sonic's. As for the answering to thingy, can the same not be said of Sonic. While he doesn't run around as fast, I'd say that Marth is overall much faster with his attacks and punishes mistakes far more brutally than Sonic. Of course, I am probably very much in the dark as far as great Sonics go.

3. Ok, now this I definitely NEED some more information on. How does Marth die super early?

4. From what I've seen/done, counter shuts down a couple more.

5. Lag? Marth? His down air is his only move that really lags more than any of Sonic's. Marth's short hopped forward airs (his main move) are, annoyingly, almost lagless.

6. Divine inspiration? While it's true that we're all just using personal experiences, it is still very much within our analytical abilities to compare and contrast our own experiences with that of others, eventually making out the similarities and differences and coming to "truth". At least, that's the idea.

7. Absolutely.

8. You make it sound WAY too easy. Lasers aren't that obvious and they still very much stop Sonic in his tracks (although I could just be thinking of an overly inexperienced Sonic player wanting to run/spin in). As well, how is Falco easy to gimp by Sonic (again, I really don't know Sonic very well yet)? Falco's forward B would, I should think, quick and effectively get him safely back to the stage all the while reversing their positions (from an edgeguarding Sonic). Lastly, I've yet to try it (nobody I play with has picked up Sonic yet) but does Falco's chain grab to spike work on Sonic?

I'm still not convinced by the Sonic >= Marth case but I'm still eager to read anything else you have to add to that. As well, anything deeper into why Sonic beats Falco would be appreciated.

Mario's match up's is pretty wrong imo. i saw a lot of things I disagree with. Ill just list off my thoughts, although I'm sure they're not all right. If I leave them blank then you're stuff is either i agree with or i don't know so i wont comment.
Bowser-Advantage
Diddy - Neutral or disputed
Falco - disadvantage
Jiggly - Disputed
Lucas - Advantage or nuetral. I'd say more of an advantage though.
Luigi - Disadvantage
Marth - Neutral
Ness - Neutral or disputed
Samus- I'd say advantage although i havnt played one but samus is garbage
Shiek - Disadvantage
Snake - Disputed or neutral
Sonic - Advantage or neutral
Wolf - Nuetral or disputed
Zelda - Nuetral or disadvantage
Zamus - Eh I doubt it's disadvantage, but I don't really know.

Samus isn't garbage (although she's cartainly not in the higher tiers...). She has a pretty good keep away game in her missles, forward tilt, and grabble beam and her jab has crazy priority.

As for your list. Please elaborate a bit more on each (or if you're not 100% certain, on the ones you're sure about) match-up.

From my testings, Ganondorf's aerials do come out slightly faster. It's not so much that it would define a distinct advantage. But in any case, they do come out slightly faster. (I can always recheck though.) However, I am certain that most of them have better reach, priority and the other stuff I mentioned.

There's no denying Yoshi's Ground moves all have quicker speed, and some of his ground moves have good knockback. However, Ganondorf's knockback has a clear advantage over Yoshi's knockback, not that Yoshi's isn't good.

I think the big thing about Ganondorf in Brawl is that he has an enormous amount of lag after just about everything. He's easy to punish and not too hard to edgeguard which makes him have to be very picky on when to attack. Yoshi's back air can stuff a lot of Ganon's moves before they start as well as push him over the edge where he can be edgeguarded fairly effectively by Yoshi's down or back air.

No offense to the people who put a lot of time and effort into this, but it's a complete waste of time right now. There's no tiers list, the game's barely been out. People were still debating match-ups in melee after 7 years; I don't think any chart right now is going to be anywhere near accurate.

Waste of time? I've learned a lot about certain characters that I probably wouldn't have learned (at least not as fast) otherwise. Tier lists don't necessarily affect match-ups (or vice versa). As for the game having barely been out, well, according to my Brawl game statistics... I'm a total loser who needs a life. It doesn't matter how long it's been out per se, but how long you've PLAYED it. As for accuracy, it gets increasingly accurate as it comes along so I don't see that as a major problem. I strongly doubt that EVERYBODY will ever agree with EVERY match-up.

Oh poor captain falcon, he's like a bird with a broken wing...
According to this, reliable or not, he has NO advantages over ANYONE -_-
what a drop from top of the middle tier.

Yeah, sadly. I don't think anybody can argue that he's gotten better... Although he is 'cooler' this time around. He's a lot more playable in a free-for-all or team match so he definitely has his place. A team that has practiced using Falcon Kick in tandem with his partner jumping up and attacking the person blocking Falcon Kick (PK Fire, Bowser's Flying Slam, and Marth's shield breaker come to mind) can find themselves with a great offense. Falcon Punching an opponent that's thrown into it is also very satisfying.

Perhaps I have not played enough people, but I strongly believe that Yoshi has a pretty solid advantage on the larger characters like ROB, DK, and Bowser. My main argument would be Yoshi over ROB, since I was able to dominate my friend who mains ROB. Yoshi's aerials could do a quick 40 through comboing, and finishing him ain't tough cause he gets racked up so fast. Then again, I'd wait to see what others have to say cause this is just one instance.

On the other hand... I kinda like Yoshi being considered garbage.

You have to have a good idea of how well your friend plays ROB and how well you play Yoshi. It's very much possible that your friend is better than you (say, if he keeps beating you with other characters) but that he just isn't using ROB properly.

ROB's projectile are good at annoying Yoshi, especially a Yoshi who like to back air a lot. ROB's down smash wrecks Yoshi's ground game and while his aerials can be pretty slow, they hit Yoshi much harder than he can hit back.

Honestly though, there is no point to this, as the backroom will make a better one in a year or so anyways

I keep hearing about this 'backroom' place. While I've been posting a fair bit while working on the chart, I'm still quite the Smashboards newbie. Who's part of this backroom and why are their posts all secret and such? They definitely have some clout among the smash boards but does anybody have a list of who they are? Are they... the Patriots!?

1. Bowser shouldn't have so many x's.

2.Second, Luigi doesn't have enough checks imo.

3. Basically, I agree with Arde saying too many "conflicting opinions" exist.

1. Who shouldn't he have an X against and why?

2. Who does he have an advantage to and why?

3. Nah. Not "too many". Just the right amount for some good debates and such. They'll all come to an end eventually.

1. Despite Marth's rangy goodness, no attack he has can outrange a b-sticked PKF, especially since Marth has no projectile. The most Marth can do is jab it or shield it, and when Marth is swiping away PKFs, he isn't approaching or dealing you damage.

2. All of you pro-Marth people out there will, I'm sure, tell me that Marth wins this matchup because of his superior range. This truly is almost all Marth has going for him

3. F-smash will be spammed, d-smash will be spammed, dash attacks will be spammed.

4. For Lucas, this makes life a little difficult, but the factor to even it out is proper dodging.

5. If Marth f-smashes you, he can only be in one place: right in front of you. So when he gets there, be prepared for this attack.

6. If he runs right toward you from across the stage, expect two things: a dash attack or a jump into an aerial attack.

7. The other option is to shield the dash attack, let it knock you back a few steps, then use its ending lag to grab Marth.

8. A spike probably wouldn't work too well against Marth's u-air, so just use PK Thunder as the ultimate edgeguarding projectile. If you wait until the Marth is just below the stage and about to perform his up-B, you can hit him with it and get him to bounce off the side of the stage or fly underneath it, depending on where you're at.

9. characters like Lucas that can make Marth go on the defensive should at least be considered neutral.

10. That's the same reason ROB has the advantage, right?

1. Ah, the PK Fire keep-away game. It's my favorite. And yes, it's pretty good at keeping Marth at bay. Can he really swipe them? I remember him getting burned every time he tried that. Sadly, however, any competant Marth (well, any character) will shield, dodge, roll, jump, whatever towards Lucas enough to eventually get to him. Nevertheless, PK Fire is well respected for good reason. PK Fire away!

2. No. Range + Speed + Power + Game that will probably be brought to North America (his DS remake).

3. Spammed isn't the correct word to use here. A good Marth never just throws those out least he be wanting a bash in the face with Lucas' stick. No, Marths use smashes when they'll hit.

4. Both characters can dodge equally. The big difference is that the most that Lucas will have time to do after dodging Marth's moves will be to jab kick or, if he has enough time, to forward tilt. Lucas takes longer to recover (I'm thinking more about their aerials) and so Marth might get a Smash in.

5. My friend and I have played each other so much that we sometimes have these funny moments where both of our characters (my Lucas and his Marth) are within forward smash range and we just stand there for about a second or two, ready to predict the other's attack. It's along those lines of two fighters being able to read each others thoughts after being good enough. It's always pretty interesting, and intense.

6. Or a grab. Or his forward B.

7. You know, I can't recall my buddy having ever used Marth's dash attack. It's just not worth the risk and there are better, safer, options (like forward B or forward air).

8. An experienced Marth knows to forward air the thunder ball... but that doesn't stop it from kicking ***. You're absolutely right, PK Thunder can really mess up Marth's recovery.

9. No, just because he has to block a million projectiles doesn't mean he's at a disadvantage (although I once thought so). The projectiles hold him at bay for a bit but eventually Marth will get through and start slicing away. I mean, it's a pretty close match up but Marth's forward air combos hurt Lucas more than Lucas' PK Fire hurt Marth.

10. Sort of. ROBs attacking options and projectile use are pretty different than Marths. An even bigger thing is ROBs superior edgeguarding/recovery abilities. Lucas can't really camp Marth quite like the fairly heavy robot.

Maybe I should just argue for Snake, Falco, and MK too?

Marth has a grab infinite on Lucas.

Try arguing for the lower tier characters (not against the highter tier ones) instead. Those are harder.

No, it's not an infinite and really doesn't add much. Forward air combos on Lucas are better in every way (apart from not being shield ignoring grabs).

Lucas isn't that good people. I mean, he's high tier, but he's nothing too special.

High tier = special, no? He's special in that he has some of the most effective projectiles in the game (although they can be shut down with ease by reflectors and PSI magnet).

 

[Emblem Lord]

What's a forward air combo?

Wait..wait.

Are you talking about Lucario?

Cuz if you're talking about Marth then I have to ask wtf are you talking about.

 

[Grunt]

MK, Snake, Marth, Falco...
how did i not see this coming?

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Did you miss the D3 vs. Sonic debate, or was it just not enough to throw the match up in sonic's favour.

 

[The Enemy]

Am I correct in assuming that Snake, Wolf, and MK are winning most tourneys?

From what I've read, some people think those three are broken. I haven't played much Brawl but, coming from Melee I just don't see it. I'd say that Melee Fox getting kills on an opponent at less than 30% with the shine, and Peach's all too powerful Down smash as more menacing than anything I've seen Snake, Wolf, and MK do. Is Snake's dash attack to up-smash the thing that's pushing him to the top? Or is it his tilts?

 

[Browny]

Did you miss the D3 vs. Sonic debate, or was it just not enough to throw the match up in sonic's favour.

looks like dededes match ups in general are off

how can he have a disadvantage for falco, but an advantage to fox. i understand falco is better in many ways, but surely its not enough to warrant an exact opposite match up.
as before, sonic ***** dedede.

what do people think of MK vs lucario, its still disputed.
Lucarios d-air prevents any u-air chasing by MK and without any strong vertical finishers, lucario will easily survive past 120% unless a shuttle loop gets a sweetspot hit. i think lucario has the advantage here. even if lucario dies first, a double team when MK is at 120% will generally kill him, since its not majorly affected by his aura ability and tis near vertical knockback is MK's least resistant

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

It's probably that His Smash are practically a second set of Specials, his Specials are made of Mind Game, and his tilts are powerful as many Smashes.

He's a beast of a character with alot of different kinds of playstyles that are available.

Personally I can see how powerful he could be, but he's not my main.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think the big thing about Ganondorf in Brawl is that he has an enormous amount of lag after just about everything. He's easy to punish and not too hard to edgeguard which makes him have to be very picky on when to attack.

Considering Sonic is very good at both pressuring and edgeguarding, why oh why is he disadvantaged against Ganondorf?
With Sonic's speed, it's very easy to pressure him into mistakes and then punish him for it.
As long as you mix up your approaches, it shouldn't really be a problem getting Ganondorf to screw up.
I know Ganondorf finds Sonic easy to KO thanks to his weight, but he's not exactly hard to kill either, via gimping.

 

[omegablackmage]

can we finish the gw matchups?

ike - range/power is his only advantage. gw has speed and can edge guard ike very well along with a much better combo and even projectile game. I would like to think that a smart ike could do something vs gw, but im pretty sure that gw has enough range and power to counter any mistakes ike makes. gw advantage.

samus - although i haven't seen it yet, i would be willing to bet that a samus player could give gw some problems. missiles and the grapple beam both outrange gw and are fast enough to be a bother. coupled with the annoying up b, samus has enough of a game to compete. however poor combos, poor ability to kill upward, and poor speed keep her from pulling ahead in this matchup. gw advantage.

dk - can kill upward with the dsmash, up air, and up smash, which hurts vs a gw. he's really heavy and has a lot of range that can hurt to approach. down b is hard to approach against if they space well, back air, dsmash, neutral b, fsmash, ftilt, and grab all have a lot of range. i would think that it would be very tough to approach dk. however, gw has a lot of speed, combo potential, and edge guarding that can hurt a dk player. even matchup

zss - i originally put this as a neutral matchup, so you don't have to leave it in the question mark phase, unless someone else disputes it. forward b, gun, and fsmash all have a lot of range against gw. if the zss player is good with spacing, that forward b becomes impossible to space against, not to mention it kills. up air is very strong and kills gw very early along with combo potential. zss players seem to work well pressuring sheilds with dash attacks, jabs, uptilts, and forward tilts, which is hard to punish, but it could just be me needing more experience in the matchup. Its very difficult to edge guard her, probably second to rob because she has so many optionts. gw disadvantage.

 

[Gleam]

Considering Sonic is very good at both pressuring and edgeguarding, why oh why is he disadvantaged against Ganondorf?
With Sonic's speed, it's very easy to pressure him into mistakes and then punish him for it.
As long as you mix up your approaches, it shouldn't really be a problem getting Ganondorf to screw up.
I know Ganondorf finds Sonic easy to KO thanks to his weight, but he's not exactly hard to kill either, via gimping.

Sonic> Ganondorf in speed, but that's about it. Speed can only get you so far, Ganondorf beats Sonic in Reach, Knockback, Priority, Damage, almost everything else.

 

[Trapt497]

what do people think of MK vs lucario, its still disputed.
Lucarios d-air prevents any u-air chasing by MK and without any strong vertical finishers, lucario will easily survive past 120% unless a shuttle loop gets a sweetspot hit. i think lucario has the advantage here. even if lucario dies first, a double team when MK is at 120% will generally kill him, since its not majorly affected by his aura ability and tis near vertical knockback is MK's least resistant

Lucario beats MK hands down. Lucario has dodge rolls to avoid infinte combos, aura sphere for long range projectiles, and an awesome down air to punish meta knight for flying below him. And plus, meta knight has VERY FEW killing moves, and those killing moves are usually still not that good at it. MK is a character that racks up damage but has few killing moves. Lucario will simply own him when his aura multiplies the damge he deals by 1.25, then 1.5, then double, and meta knight will have a hard time trying to finish Lucario off. When Lucario is at 100%, a double team kills MK at 98%. All the while Meta Knight is struggling to finish Lucario off with his weak moves.

dj and I suggest that a check be put for Lucario having an advantage over meta knight. Do any meta knight fans disagree? IF so, please quote this post and explain why.

 

[Aminar]

After a tournament I went to yesterday i have to say Pit has advantage on Snake and Toon Link. I'm not the best at smash and I was beating or almost beating Snakes and Toon Links luegues above me in tech skill with loads more tournament experience.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

wth are u on. i mean i like falco and im pretty good wit him, but he's not better than almost everyone in the game, for example, zero suit could just use her whip and gun/down smash to paralyze him while he tries to advance.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

great job, i like the chart aside from what i said b4, nice job again but u should finish it.