Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[InterimOfZeal]

Wow, this list is pretty inaccurate, at least for the Sonic portion. Seriously, he does not have that many bad match-ups.

 

[cHooKay]

Mario doesn't suck Kiwikomix, and IvanEva, you do not understand mario enough to create judge him as such, you gave him too many weakness that do not seem reasonable. Mario is too well fit to fight in any situation

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4e6xLCOLY_w

watch and learn dude, and change up your chart..

 

[Chexr]

Jiggs > Rob

Jiggs can swarm rob with quick (yet weak) aerials which beat robs slow nair, dair and bair.

Her pound counters robs down dodge to dsmash strat and is very hard to camp against.

 

[Browny]

Wow, this list is pretty inaccurate, at least for the Sonic portion. Seriously, he does not have that many bad match-ups.

i think his bad match ups are alright, but the disputed/neutral ones look off. especially vs dedede as mdrndaymercutio pointed out (looks the same as one of my posts on the sonic board lol). plays like a melee falco vs DK is you ask me.

charizard, diddy and ZSS stick out to me as favourable to sonic, but only slightly.

other than that i think lucario is hurt pretty badly by G&W, exactly like every other character in the game. G&W is just **** on all accounts. I think lucario has an advantage over wario and metaknight since they have no way to stop his aura sphere and thier incredibly good up-aerials are destroyed by lucarios d-air.

 

[Chexr]

Mario can kill a kirby at 80% using either his dsmash, usmash, fsmash, utilt, bair, fair, dair, nair, uair, bthrow, which is plenty of ways to kill someone.

Also, LOL at this. DI do you use it? Its rare that I ever get KO'd by ANYONE below 120% with any character...other than wolf due to his god awful recovery.

Kirbys back-air destroys anyone without a disjointed hitbox. Mario doesnt even come close to countering kirby.

 

[Undrdog]

...? Pit>>>>Wolf. I certainly hope this wasn't all based on arrows. Contrary to the stereotypical n00b Pit player, Pit does have other moves.


~Both of Wolf's recovery moves can be reflected with the mirror.
-Not to mention they are both linear and Wolf is almost always forced to aim for the edge.
~Wolf's blaster is easily reflected.
-The animation is slow and it's range is so short that most Pits can actually reflect the shot AND hit Wolf with the AR.
~Wolf's recovery sucks pretty bad, but Pit's just makes it look awful.

I could keep going but it's all fundamental stuff that I'd feel stupid actually typing. It might also help for people to look into what Pit can do too. Arrow Chasing when used correctly nerfs Wolf's high ranged melee attacks too. And trust me, a Pit who knows how to use arrows will love any character that hides in a reflector, even for a moment.

Seriously one look at Arrow Chasing and I doubt most reflector characters will get any benefits from fighting a Pit.

 

[k4polo]

Jiggs > Rob

Jiggs can swarm rob with quick (yet weak) aerials which beat robs slow nair, dair and bair.

Her pound counters robs down dodge to dsmash strat and is very hard to camp against.

Nah. I think ROB has got jigglypuff pretty easily. He out prioritizes her plus he has projectile while she has torely on being up close. ROB can outspace jiggs and he be fine.(F-Tilt,U-Tilte) ROB is looking top/high tier. He seems to have alot of success from tournament results.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

i think his bad match ups are alright, but the disputed/neutral ones look off. especially vs dedede as mdrndaymercutio pointed out (looks the same as one of my posts on the sonic board lol). plays like a melee falco vs DK is you ask me.

This is the current listing:

Bowser?
CF+
Charizard?
Diddy-
DK-
Falco-
FoxN
GaW-
Ganon-
IC -
Ike?
Ivysaur?
Jiggz~
D3?
Kirby
Link+
Lucario?
Lucas-
Luigi-
Mario+
Marth-
MK-
Ness+
Peach~
Pikachu-
Olimar-
Pit-
ROB-
Samus-
Sheik
Snake?
Sonic
Squirtle~
TL-
Wario-
Wolf+
Yoshi
Zelda+
ZSS~

Sonic does not have that many bad match-ups. My listing is as follows:

Bowser+
CF+
Charizard+
Diddy~
DK~
Falco+
Fox~
GaW-
Ganon+
IC-
Ike+
Ivysaur+
Jiggz~, maybe +
D3+
Kirby-
Link~
Lucario+
Lucas~, maybe +
Luigi-
Mario~, dunno for sure
Marth~, maybe + (Marth dies at 80% from fsmash, with DI, on battlefield)
MK~, maybe +, maybe -
Ness~
Peach+
Pikachu~, haven't fought one that can consistently quick attack cancel for combos, do I dunno
Olimar-, ~, +, very stage dependant
Pit++++++ SERIOUSLY, SONIC DESTROYS THIS GUY
ROB~
Samus~, maybe +, haven't played this match-up, so I can only theorize
Sheik~, or +
Snake~, Sonic can combo the **** outta this guy, and edgeguard, but Snake is STRONG and has super priority.
Sonic
Squirtle+, Squirtle is annoying to fight, tricky to hit, but can't edgeguard you, and dies at super low percents. Dthrow ftw.
TL~, haven't fought any legendary TLs, but I've beaten every one I've fought so far with my Sonic. Sonic doesn't care about projectiles, and can punish every single move of TL's.
Wario-, very slight. Good recovery+bite of stupid priority force Sonic to play even more oddly than usual. Usmash and RAR bairs are your friend in this fight.
Wolf~, maybe +. Haven't fought Wolf enough, but atrocious recovery=very happy Sonic. Still, dsmash is a pain in the *** to deal with, so I'm leaving this neutral until I get more exp v wolf.
Yoshi~, maybe -, wall of boot is annoying, as is the general high-priority beast Yoshi has become. Still, Sonic can win this by spamming grab, I think. Been a loooong time since I've done this one, so I'm not sure if everything either of us did works.
Zelda+
ZSS~

Changes made:

Bowser, moved from ? to +
Charizard, moved from ? to +
Diddy, moved from - to ~
DK, moved from - to ~
Falco, moved from - to +
Ganon, moved from - to +
Ike, moved from ? to +
Ivysaur, moved from ? to +
Jiggz, moved from ~ to ~, maybe +
D3, moved from ? to +
Kirby, moved from to -
Link, moved from + to ~
Lucario, moved from ? to +
Lucas, moved from - to ~, maybe +
Mario, from + to ~
Marth, from - to ~, maybe +
MK, from - to ~, maybe +
Ness, moved from + to ~
Peach, from ~ to +
Pikachu, from - to ~
Olimar, from - to -,~,+, due to stage dependencies/how often/low gimps occur
Pit, from - to ++++++. Seriously, who the hell said Pit beats Sonic? That's dumb
ROB, from - to ~
Samus from - to ~, maybe +. While I haven't played this match-up, I do know how Samus plays. While the fight seems like it would be a lot more defensive play on Sonic's part until getting past the zair, after that, it seems like Sonic would be best off baiting nairs and scoring hits with utilt, ftilt, and his aerials.
Sheik from to ~, or +
Snake from ? to ~
Squirtle from ~ to +
TL from - to ~
Wolf from + to ~~, maybe +
Yoshi from to ~, maybe -

If you want to argue them, go ahead. Some match-ups, I dunno inside out. Others, like Pit, I will argue until the day I die. I'll post a ratio list and more detailed match-up chart later.

 

[NJzFinest]

Stopped looking when I saw Snake having the advantage over Falco

 

[Meta Dude]

Donkey Kong's down tilts and jabs are long and come out quickly. It's their speed plus their range that makes them almost as fast as Yoshi's. It's like how Roy's forward Smash seemed so much slower than Marth's since Roy's hits in the middle (that's probably a bad example but...). Distance traveled makes an attack "faster". Is Yoshi faster overall? Yes. However, it's really not by much.

Short hop back air is pretty good. Of course, so is short hop back a- GIANT PUNCH!!! In the actual air, yes, Yoshi's back air is good against DK. Should his back not be turned however, as is most likely the case, DK's aerials, especially neutral air, generally beat Yoshi's in range, priority, damage and knockback (although Yoshi's neutral air can be pretty easy to hit with). Of note as well is that DK's back air is overall much better than Yoshi's. It's easier to hit with, does more damage generally and has better knockback. Yoshi's back air doesn't 'own' everybody. DK's does.

DK's ground game is slightly better than Yoshi's in part because DK has much more options and they're almost always longer ranged. I'm thinking of his tilts (although Yoshi's forward tilt is pretty good) and specials.

DK makes for a nice fat egg toss target, yes. However, that's one of the only things Yoshi has on him. It could just be me but I find the eggs to be very easy to shield/airdodge. They're certainly not spammable. They're not enough to give Yoshi the advantage.

DK has a dash grab as well. While not quite as long (sort of, his grab range is pretty good) it's faster and he doesn't get his brains punched in when he misses.

Most of Lucario's aerials beat out Yoshi's due to his aura hit boxes. The only exception is back airs in which Yoshi's back air beat's Lucario's. Lucario's is faster and he's much easier to space with so it's still in Lucario's favor. Yoshi's up air is a solid killer but it gets completely stuffed by Lucario's down air. On the ground it's much closer but Lucario's aura gives him the priority edge he needs against Yoshi. I'm probably making it sound like Lucario completely shuts Yoshi down, which he doesn't, but he does have the advantage in this match. At least until you post good arguments otherwise. What advantages does Yoshi have on Lucario? Perhaps your friend just isn't as good with his Lucario as you are with your Yoshi.

Mario's fireballs don't **** Yoshi, they hurt him, stop him in his tracks, and gives Mario an edge that Yoshi has to be aware of. In short, they do what projectiles are supposed to do to the opponent, something that Yoshi's don't really do to Mario due to their lack of speed, obviousness, and the time it takes for Yoshi to recover from throwing them. Mario's fireballs are something that he should throw whenever there's enough room to.

Mario's cape on the other hand... There was a point in that video where Mario back airs Yoshi instead of caping him. That was wrong. He would have won if he knew how much Yoshi loved being caped. He also got hit by Yoshi's egg roll from one end of the stage to the other. Twice. That Mario seemed like he wasn't used to fighting a Yoshi. I know Yoshi's smashes well. His smashes are basically Mario's. No advantage for either character when it comes to smashes (although Mario's fireballs can interrupt Yoshi). Yoshi out ranges Mario on his tilts and down smash but that's counter balanced by Mario's fireballs. Staying at a range where Yoshi can hit but Mario can't is overly difficult.

I'm not saying that any of these characters TOTALLY ANNIHILATE Yoshi, just that they have more advantages over Yoshi than Yoshi has on them. In your opinion, would you have the chart saying that those three are neutral or that Yoshi has an advantage over them?

once again, you're assuming quite a lot there. this is all hypothetical. for instance, yoshi jumping in on DK when he has a donkey punch charged (a good yoshi will constantly pressure him, not letting him charge it, or atleast make it difficult). instead of coming up with how a match might be played between two characters in your head, why not actually make something useful like a priority chart. go through each character's attacks, and see how they fare against each other characters attacks. the way you're organizing it, IC should have advantages over everyone since they can allegedly infininite chain grab everyone.

i've never had a problem fighting DK (and a lot of those characters that yoshi has a disadvantage) on the ground or in the air. and i bet if you went to the yoshi forum and listed all those disadvantaged mathups, you would get laughed at (note: not saying yoshi is 'teh omg tier' don't misinterpret me). even if someone has much greater priority, if you time you're attack properly, this can be bypassed. what i'm getting at is there are so many hypotheticals and uncontrollables that this chart will never address, and therefore is a waste of time (i'm not talking about just skill, but things like how one character approaches another or how the other counters).

this game is more about HOW you play your character, not WHAT character you pick. go to every character forum, and you'll see videos of people owning with ganondorf and sonic and other "bad" characters, because they know how to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. when a sonic is played unpredictablly (which his speed greatly allows, and mischievous spin dashes), he is a forced to be reckoned with, despite his low priority and lack of KO moves. this chart doesn't address this at all. and that's one example of how flawed this chart is, it seems there's lots of people complaining about it.

this game is more balanced than this chart makes one think. i believe (if there has to be a chart) that 80-90% of the matchups would be marked as neutral. it's a noble idea, but very fallible at that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

My listing is as follows:
Lucario+
Marth~, maybe + (Marth dies at 80% from fsmash, with DI, on battlefield)
MK~, maybe +, maybe -

I'd actually like to see more explination for these particular matchups. Lucario I could maybe understand since he's easy to edgeguard, but Marth and Metaknight? Marth not only outranges everything Sonic has, but his attacks also come out very fast and are all stronger than Sonic's. Metaknight is in the same position, but with slightly less power and a better recovery. I seriously don't see how Sonic could possibly have an advantage in either of these matchups.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'd actually like to see more explination for these particular matchups. Lucario I could maybe understand since he's easy to edgeguard, but Marth and Metaknight? Marth not only outranges everything Sonic has, but his attacks also come out very fast and are all stronger than Sonic's. Metaknight is in the same position, but with slightly less power and a better recovery. I seriously don't see how Sonic could possibly have an advantage in either of these matchups.

First off, Marth doesn't outrange EVERYTHING Sonic has. Sonic has 2x Stutter step fsmash. GGs, Marf.

Being serious, Sonic can take advantage of virtually ANY lag Marth has. If Marth misses a move, Sonic can get in and do some damage. This applies to any match-up for Sonic. It's the same premise that allowed Fox and Sheik to beat Marth up in SSBM, only Marth isn't quite the combo/**** machine he was back then, so the fact that Sonic can't 0-death him either doesn't matter as much.

Also, Sonic is really really REALLY hard to edgeguard. Really hard. Marth does alright edgeguarding him when compared to some, but he still can't really gimp him unless the Sonic is playing stupid. Marth dies from fsmash at around 80% on most stages. This negates Sonic's inability to "kill". Get him off the stage, bair him once or twice, and he should be gone. Sonic's ftilt seems to be a disjointed hitbox, and can be used for spacing games v Marth. You'll be grabbing Marth a lot a lot, typically, since that's the best way to get in between the fairs. Punish the sword dance with grabs, or tilts from shield, or whatever.

Essentially, Sonic is even, if not possessing the advantage, due to being able to punish virtually anything, and Marth's super light weight.

MK is harder to explain. On paper, MK looks like a hard counter for Sonic. Good recovery, amazing priority, able to edgeguard effectively. In reality, he doesn't have as much unbreakable priority as it first seems, and is easier to gimp than characters like Kirby, for some bizarre reason. He is also fairly light, and does really low damage with most of his attacks, and has trouble killing. Shield the b moves, punish with usmash, use nair>dash attack, but omit the ftilt at the end. Wrack up damage, play patient. Once you're at killing percent, play a little campier, and watch out for jabs into dsmash. Also, if you think he's going to up-b, get into the little space above him where he loops around, and suddenly, you have a perfect set-up for bair. I'm leaving this one neutral for now, because MK doesn't get ***** by Sonic, per se, and I haven't fought any big names that play him yet.

Essentially, vs Marth, punish everything ever, let him get to about 90 for the guaranteed kill, and land that fsmash. Vs MK, just play smart, and space right. He has just as much trouble killing as Sonic does, but lacks Sonic's decent weight, and, therefore, dies easier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No.

Sonic doesn't beat Marth and especially not MK. Marth vs Sonic isn't a horrible match or anything, but it IS Marth's advantage. Marth zones the hell out of Sonic and honestly let's be real Sonic can't reliably kill and Marth isn't super easy to gimp thanks to his range his up b. Sonic can punish anything? Not really. Not fairs, or d-tilts anyway. Marth can use these and as long as he spaces well Sonic really has a tough time getting in. Marth doesn't aggro Sonic. He zones him and takes advantage of Sonic's low priority.

Also Sonic's damage is low, so anything he punishes with won't be too threatening. Sonic runs fast, but Marth attacks much faster overall. And has better tool for punishing. Marth doesn't have to kill Sonic all that soon, when he can just shut down his approach.

MK...dude this IS **** IMO. Excellent punisher, great pressure and rushdown. Quite fast and has awesome edgeguarding. So he can gimp Soinc reliably unlike alot of the cast.

What does Sonic have in this match-up to take advantage of beisdes MK's weight? And that's not even too much of an issue because Sonic's kill moves, are slow and they won't really be hitting.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Interesting. I have no problem punish ftilts. Maybe I'm just a freak, or something. Dtilt spam is a bit vexing, particularly on BF, but spinshotting nairs/fairs/bairs tends to get past that fairly well. Doesn't ftilt outspace dtilt? I could be wrong on that one, since I've been working more on Sonic's aerial game as of late. I know you can do a dash usmash to get past dtilt spam, due to Sonic's invulnerability on his lower body.

I've never been gimped by MK. I think any Sonic that's getting gimped is just burning their recovery incorrectly. Gimping him is still a little trickier than, say, Ike, but not the impossible people make it out to be. I can't say too much on this match-up, though, since I've only played mediocre MKs, and Timotee's MK (though he mains Kirby =/). It might be possible that all my approaches and whatnot are flawed, but I haven't seen problems with that match-up yet. As for killing MK, dashing fsmashes are pretty reliable, and easy to land, given his lag after b moves. Bair is also pretty easy to land, particularly when he's trying to gimp you. It has a really odd hitbox.

What good Sonics do you play against? As I stated before, I haven't played anyone I consider really great with MK, but for Marth, I've played both YangFuShang and SpiritDragon, as well as Brown Nite. The last one prolly isn't even known that well on smashboards, but Yang and Ferdi are solid as hell.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Seriously, has anyone played against a Peach that doesn't suck? She doesn't lose to almost the entire cast.

Peach beats DK. Her ftilt and fsmash literally cuts through his entire moveset, including a fully charged punch. Peach also beats Ganon, for similar reasons and because she can gimp him pretty easily.

Peach has more options than most non-reflector characters to deal with projectile spam. Many of the matchups with projectile characters are even if anything because of this.

Peach's worst matchups are Snake, Pit, Metaknight.

Olimar is even with Diddy and Peach. I play both ends of those matchups a lot, and no one seems to have a significant advantage to shut the other out. Kirby is even with him as well.

Olimar beats Ness. Ness could be gimped by Olimar way easier than Olimar could be gimped by Ness. Yoshi doesn't have the advantage over Olimar either. I can argue for this being even, or for this being in Olimar's favor.

Olimar vs. Falco is really bad. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

See now...THAT is dangerous.

Using personal experience can sometimes make you somewhat jaded in match-up analysis. You think, well since I do well vs this person's Marth I think it's even or Sonic's advantage. But maybe you are just used to their style or you can predict them really well. I try my hardest not to let personal experience cloud my judgement.

Spin shotting is nice for being tricky, but it's not really some thing you use for attacking, Since you fly into the air making it somewhat obvious if you try to attack them. F-tilt and d-tilt has virtually the same range. You can't just look at one or two aspects of a match-up and call it in someone's favor. You have to look at options, speed, weight, edgeguarding ability, killing ability and priority. Marth has better options, better moves overall, better killing ability, better range, ALOT more prioirty and better edge guarding.

Sonic's recovery means that Marth has more trouble gimping him, but he still kills really well and has all those other advantages over Sonic. How does Sonic have advantage on a character that is vastly superior to him?

Also...Sonic has advantage on Falco?

Hell no.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I can't exactly go off of other Sonics, since **** near all of them are garbage, and Chu and Wes don't post anything on the general boards. I listed those two as people I play because every Marth I've played that isn't them gets ***** horribly. Even people I've never met before.

Sonic is all about being tricky and decepetive. Spin shotting is no different. You don't use it when you're going to get punished, or when they're expecting it. It's mainly used for respacing/zoning. I'm not just looking at one or two aspects, I'm looking at the whole picture. Marth using ftilt or utilt is begging to get grabbed, dtilt is annoying, but can be beaten/avoided. Every single thing Marth does, Sonic can answer to.

As I said before, Marth dies super early, negating both Sonic's inability to kill, and Marth's good killing abilities. Their ability to kill is roughly the same, when compared to each other. We're not talking about Sonic v Snake compared to Marth v Snake, we're talking about Sonic v Marth. Marth shuts down one thing, and one thing alone, of Sonic's game. SH aerials right in front of him, particularly nair. Now, if that were Sonic's only method of approach, I'd understand what you're saying, but since Sonic can take either ground or air, and covers both distances faster than anyone else (aside from ~maybe~ quick attack cancelling Pika, who is limited in how he can respond after doing said maneuver), I hardly see that as a good argument.

As I stated in my post, Sonic may only be equal in the Sonic v Marth match-up. He might not have the advantage. He is NOT at a disadvantage, however. Marth lags enough for Sonic to punish **** near anything ever.

If you're not using personal experience, then what ARE you using? What everyone on smashboards is saying? C'mon. Over 90% of the people posting here have no idea what they're saying or doing. You know that as well as I do. A lot of the Melee pros based their arguments on their experiences, and would be countered by other's experiences. Looking at things on paper seldom makes for a good tier list, or match-up analysis. Sometimes the actuality is just too different.

Example: ICs can 0-death everyone. Therefore, they should have advantages in every single match-up ever. They don't have too many problems with projectile spam, and are fairly mobile/high priority.

Now, ICs ARE top tier material, but they don't have the advantage over everyone. Actual play mechanics, spacing, zoning games, and the effectiveness with which they can use every technique all factor in on who can beat them, and who gets owned. Same goes for Sonic v Marth.

So I'll ask again, what good Sonics have you played with your Marth, or at least seen play against a good Marth, IRL? Vids online shouldn't count for much, since you don't know who beats who, how they play, or any of that.

Sonic v Falco is Sonic's advantage. It ~may~ be even. Either way, it's a great match-up that I would love to do every single round of a tournament. Perfect shield the lasers, uthrow utilt for the first easy bit of damage. Spring outta any combos, impossible to gimp, but able to gimp incredibly effectively, better movement, there's so much about that match-up that I love.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Mario doesn't suck Kiwikomix, and IvanEva, you do not understand mario enough to create judge him as such, you gave him too many weakness that do not seem reasonable. Mario is too well fit to fight in any situation

Who said he sucks? I actually happen to like Mario, but I recognize that he has shortcomings. So does Kirby, it's just that Kirby's advantages outmatch Mario's weaknesses better than the other way around. Anyway, on to your big argument...

Mario is one of the most improved characters that transitioned from melee. Every pro mario player in the smash community in general agrees that mario is generally better than mario/doc from melee.

Did you even play him in Melee?

Pretty much sakurai made mario extremely versatile to fight within any type of situation within brawl.

Well, that's kind of the point there, bud... in every single Smash game, Mario is the balanced character. Unfortunately for him, that makes some pretty stupid people consider him the "noob character", which I don't agree with. However, as time goes on, many people find that a "balanced" character isn't really that hard to counter.

As a competitive smash player, mario being my main, I really don't have any problems beating the crap out of the pink bubble gum puff kirby. In fact, I've never lost to a kirby mainer yet.

Good for you. I bet you and your level 9 computer killing skills feel great. I can beat a Mario with Kirby, but I'm not asking for a cookie, am I? And just because someone mains Kirby doesn't mean they're good with them.

-Neutral b for kirby lets him inhale in one short limited direction, any character can shoot a projectile, roll away, jump over it, etc. Mario is no exception, kirby can't eat fireballs, especially when the fireballs are shffl's and DI'd backwards.

Once again, range is an issue for Mario. His fireballs go about 2/5 of Final Destination, so if the Kirby is feeling lazy he can just wait it out. As for approaching, short hopping a fireball won't do anything different if a Kirby jumps and airdodges toward him.

-Kirby's jumps are slow, nothing like diddy's hops. I have no problem blasting the puff with fireballs, let alone marios fair off the cliff. Kirby practically asked to be slammed by a meteor or blasted by projectiles, and kirby is nowhere fast enough to dodge either of them for the majority of the of the time.

Did you just suggest that Mario's spike is easier to hit with than Kirby's? This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. It's hard enough for Mario to spike and get back on the edge in the first place, and never mind that its wind-up lag should be obvious to spot coming a mile away. Besides, what are you going to do when Kirby airdodges and gets to the ledge before Mario? You might as well consider yourself one stock down, because even if the Kirby can't spike you for some reason, he can still WOP you or whatever to keep you from getting back. It's called edgeguarding, but apparently you haven't heard of it.

-A noob mario mainer that deflects kirby's hammer would have improper timing, thus, taking damage within the process. Any good or great mario mainer would be able to time kirby's hammer or any other attack without taking damage, its pretty easy especially with mario's new cape tech the ACE (on the ground it extends the range of mario's cape). And the scenario you've described is senseless, if mario is hit before he capes of course he's going to take damage. Learn how to describe scenarios better bro...

I'm not saying that this is the only scenario in which Mario's cape fails. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't help him as much as it used to.

-The mario tornado in melee wasn't even that great in melee, even as a recovery move. Its not that greatly miss. The new mario tornado acts as an air escape, and can enable mario to be more nimble in air, it even grants more more lift in the air. As for marios recovery, its not great, but its not bad either, especially you cape first, use your second jump next, and last use mario's upB. Even FLUDD can be used to recover. As a good mario mainer, I rarely have any problem recovering from most situations...

Never use Mario, nimble, and air in the same sentence again. Sure, he can juggle people with uair, but what else does he have? A sex kick, a laggy spike, the tornado (which you yourself said isn't great), and a bair, which I will admit is a good move, but not if you're trying to be "nimble". Anyway, Kirby>Mario in the air any day.
I know how to use a cape to recover, bud. Thanks for explaining. And no good Kirby is going to let you charge up FLUDD unless you just killed him and you're using the few seconds to charge it. Besides, using the FLUDD in midair just adds to Mario's midair vulnerability, since it propels him toward the stage backwards, right into his enemy.

-Mario's F-smash is almost the same as how it was in melee, except now it doesn't require much of a sweet spot anymore to knockback opponents. On its sweet spot, foes fly. Mario can pivot this attack, as well as extending this move a full body distance (seconds to ganny's fsmash extensnion). The number of kills I've got from this move is ridiculously high, and its combo potential is high. I don't know where your going with this seriously, do you even see any pro mario vids or something for you to make this claim? Kirby's dogde isn't great, and is no exception towards marios fsmash, he can and will be killed with this move just like any other character.

I said myself Kirby's dodge isn't great, but it's good in a situational use like this. If you f-smash a dodging Kirby, prepare to be shield grabbed. Because it's going to happen.

-Kirby cannot dodge a great fireball spam, you speak as if he's never been pelted by one before. Short hop-DI'd fireballs approaching can actually change the pace and range of the fireballs, thus creating one of the most irritable spammable moves in brawl. And as for kirby copying mario, Mario can either use FLUDD to erradicate kirby's copied mario fireballs, or reflect them back at kirby with his cape. Umm yeah, umm.... WTF dude.

Wow. "Most irritable spammable moves in Brawl". You give yourself too much credit. His projectile isn't awful, it's just that most others are better. Pit's arrows are more annoying. So are Ness and Lucas's PK Fire (or PK Thunder if you want to consider that a projectile), Falco and Wolf's guns, pretty much any move Snake has, Dedede's Waddlers, Toon Link's arrows, Zelda's Din's Fire, and even IC's little glacier things.

Secondly, Kirby copying Mario isn't meant to annoy Mario with this fireball spam that you say is so excellent. It's meant to do exactly what you said: cancel out Mario's fireballs. All Mario can do for his own defense is the exact same thing Kirby's doing. Who's copying who now?

-If you understand FLUDD, you can use it effectively like granting it more pushback by directing it at the tip of a player (normally a headshot). One of the ways you can use FLUDD against kirby is FLUDDing the puff ball on his last jumps, which sets kirby up for an easy meteor smash from mario. Another scenario, Kirby will die if he's blasted by a charged FLUDD while using his upB (cutter) to recover. Enough said..

Yeah, okay. I would be ashamed of myself if I actually got caught in one of these scenarios, since a Kirby is best when either recovering from low down with the up-B or from above with a stone. When coming from below, Mario will either be standing too close and get hit with the cutter or be standing too far back to hit Kirby with FLUDD. This is, of course, assuming that the Kirby player is competent to aim for the ledge and not for a spot directly above it. In your own words, learn to describe scenarios better bro...

-Kirby can get KO'd easily by everyone. Mario's can KO, especially since his moves have more knock back and more priority. I've KO'd a kirby with percentages at 20% (death by meteor). Mario can kill a kirby at 80% using either his dsmash, usmash, fsmash, utilt, bair, fair, dair, nair, uair, bthrow, which is plenty of ways to kill someone. Smash logic 101, if your character is a lightweight, you're more prone to getting KO'd even if you DI an attack properly. You typed it yourself, kirby is a lightweight, and mario is no weakling. Your statement would've made sense if your character was someone heavier like ganny, or falco even, but you stated kirby? WTF...

Mario's utilt is a major stretch, it doesn't kill until higher percentages. And if you kill someone with a spike at 20%, that person is a pitiful player to just run off the edge and let you do it. Kirby can kill in just as many ways. And seriously... "GANNY"?? Just type out Ganondorf, because now you'll have his mains on your *** for making him sound like some kind of flower.

-Finally Mario and Kirby both receive buffs just like most of the veteran fighters, except mario received more.

Yeah, I'll let you keep thinking that. It's about half and half for the buffs vs. nerfs vs. sames, by the way, and there's no way Mario got it better than Kirby this time around.

In closing, I can understand what you're saying, but Mario's advantages are so situational that they don't often come into play. Mario isn't bad, Kirby is just... better.

 

[User33]

BTW, Dedede's Suck move>Sonic

Dedede doesn't get knocked around as easily, he outranges Snake, he can get through his traps and spam, and he has generally good attacks and can chainthrow. He has the advantage against Snake.

 

[Vaul]

Suggestion: Do you think putting the top character banner on the bottom as well would be a good idea? I think it would make reading the chart much easier, since I usually find myself needing to doublecheck matchups for characters on the bottom half. I know its probably not as professional looking, but the character list is definitely long enough to justify bottom labels. Just a thought for simplifying the quagmire that is life.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Zeal don't waste your reath I challenged Emblem concerning his belief that Snake has a massive advatage over Sonic and he basically ignored me in the end. -_-;

 

[furyberserk]

The people on the left are (you) and you are judging if they are good against the ones on the top. This should make since. It states, how I read it that Wolf is better than Jigglypuff and Bowser. I don't understand what others think about how wrong the list is.

The list you are seeing who is better is on the right side. The list looks like this
Mario-Bowser

Meaning Mario>Bowser, not Mario<Bowser.

Sonic is very good at comboing and the List does seem to relate too well to the possible tier list since they are both in a similar situation. Matchups, Pros and Cons determine the likely winner, and no metagame came be listed at all. This is actually a startup of the tier list to me.

 

[Gindler]

Yoshi only has advantage over Olimar and gannondorf? Olimar is always slaughtered by yoshi, but seriously yoshi isn't at a disadvantage to 30+ characters, that's just ridiculous.

 

[cHooKay]

Who said he sucks? I actually happen to like Mario, but I recognize that he has shortcomings. So does Kirby, it's just that Kirby's advantages outmatch Mario's weaknesses better than the other way around. Anyway, on to your big argument...



Did you even play him in Melee?



Well, that's kind of the point there, bud... in every single Smash game, Mario is the balanced character. Unfortunately for him, that makes some pretty stupid people consider him the "noob character", which I don't agree with. However, as time goes on, many people find that a "balanced" character isn't really that hard to counter.



Good for you. I bet you and your level 9 computer killing skills feel great. I can beat a Mario with Kirby, but I'm not asking for a cookie, am I? And just because someone mains Kirby doesn't mean they're good with them.



Once again, range is an issue for Mario. His fireballs go about 2/5 of Final Destination, so if the Kirby is feeling lazy he can just wait it out. As for approaching, short hopping a fireball won't do anything different if a Kirby jumps and airdodges toward him.



Did you just suggest that Mario's spike is easier to hit with than Kirby's? This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. It's hard enough for Mario to spike and get back on the edge in the first place, and never mind that its wind-up lag should be obvious to spot coming a mile away. Besides, what are you going to do when Kirby airdodges and gets to the ledge before Mario? You might as well consider yourself one stock down, because even if the Kirby can't spike you for some reason, he can still WOP you or whatever to keep you from getting back. It's called edgeguarding, but apparently you haven't heard of it.



I'm not saying that this is the only scenario in which Mario's cape fails. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't help him as much as it used to.



Never use Mario, nimble, and air in the same sentence again. Sure, he can juggle people with uair, but what else does he have? A sex kick, a laggy spike, the tornado (which you yourself said isn't great), and a bair, which I will admit is a good move, but not if you're trying to be "nimble". Anyway, Kirby>Mario in the air any day.
I know how to use a cape to recover, bud. Thanks for explaining. And no good Kirby is going to let you charge up FLUDD unless you just killed him and you're using the few seconds to charge it. Besides, using the FLUDD in midair just adds to Mario's midair vulnerability, since it propels him toward the stage backwards, right into his enemy.



I said myself Kirby's dodge isn't great, but it's good in a situational use like this. If you f-smash a dodging Kirby, prepare to be shield grabbed. Because it's going to happen.




His projectile isn't awful, it's just that most others are better. Pit's arrows are more annoying. So are Ness and Lucas's PK Fire (or PK Thunder if you want to consider that a projectile), Falco and Wolf's guns, pretty much any move Snake has, Dedede's Waddlers, Toon Link's arrows, Zelda's Din's Fire, and even IC's little glacier things.

Secondly, Kirby copying Mario isn't meant to annoy Mario with this fireball spam that you say is so excellent. It's meant to do exactly what you said: cancel out Mario's fireballs. All Mario can do for his own defense is the exact same thing Kirby's doing. Who's copying who now?



Yeah, okay. I would be ashamed of myself if I actually got caught in one of these scenarios, since a Kirby is best when either recovering from low down with the up-B or from above with a stone. When coming from below, Mario will either be standing too close and get hit with the cutter or be standing too far back to hit Kirby with FLUDD. This is, of course, assuming that the Kirby player is competent to aim for the ledge and not for a spot directly above it. In your own words, learn to describe scenarios better bro...



Mario's utilt is a major stretch, it doesn't kill until higher percentages. And if you kill someone with a spike at 20%, that person is a pitiful player to just run off the edge and let you do it. Kirby can kill in just as many ways. And seriously... "GANNY"?? Just type out Ganondorf, because now you'll have his mains on your *** for making him sound like some kind of flower.



Yeah, I'll let you keep thinking that. It's about half and half for the buffs vs. nerfs vs. sames, by the way, and there's no way Mario got it better than Kirby this time around.

In closing, I can understand what you're saying, but Mario's advantages are so situational that they don't often come into play. Mario isn't bad, Kirby is just... better.

You twisted some of my comments in bro, for instance, you cut my sentence short in order to make me look dumb. you typed; Wow. "Most irritable spammable moves in Brawl". You give yourself too much credit. But I could've sworn I typed "One of the most irritable spammable moves in Brawl". There's a big difference between the two, stating "one of the most" means that I acknowledge that mario isn't the only character with a spammable move, yet you decided to "flip the script"... come on bro that's wrong...

and that lvl 9 kirby statement was kinda harsh bro, of course I know what edgegaurding is, you do not own that right to state any of such since you've never seen me play. Although I do agree that some of your replies makes sense, but in general, I can go back and reply to every single one of them again and again, every thing stated for the most part described a scenario. For instance, you don't understand FLUDD, moves can be pulled off of FLUDD after mario's done spraying, so just because his back is turn doesn't mean I can't retaliate with a bair, you think people who use FLUDD effectively doesn't know that? Charging FLUDD is relatively quick and can easily to charge, mario not being able to charge it is like saying samus isn't able to charge her charge beam in a match which is a big fat lie. Another flip, Marios fair isn't slow as much anymore, and he recovers from it pretty quick after using it. Since I've been inspired by gimpyfish's mario vs snake vid, I've pulled off double fairs of the edge below the stage often in matches and still managed to recover, which pretty much means if I missed a single fair, I wouldn't have much trouble getting back on the stage. Its actually pretty easy to do?

Another flip, if any character doesn't do a perfect shield or anticipate a shield quickly against a spot on mario fsmash (which isn't as slow as you think), they'll slide a pretty decent displaced distance by the momentum of marios fsmash's force, so how would you be able to shield grab marios fsmash if he's out of reach?
I guess your pretty good with shielding perfectly then probably, God like even, who knows, haven't seen ya play, so I can't really judge you on anything.

Which brings up an interesting point, a good deal of these reasons that we both posted are scenarios, or facts described in a case to fit a scenario like kirby dogding marios fireballs like its nothing, or mario being able to spike the s*** out of kirby. They are not mechanical or structural, brawl isn't designed to be like pokemon (the weakness factor at least), describing scenarios can't relate to the structure of who's weaker than who, scenarios for the most part are just "what ifs"...

I could keep going you know, argue back...

But I'll just be wasting my time right, I'm just gonna say that if you think that kirby is so much better than mario for him to have a great advantage over mario, then thats fine. I'm not going to sweat it anymore, arguements are troublesome, its something I've rather not do, as a matter of fact, I'll end this right now and give this one to you so you can be happy, kirby is better than Mario. Its whatever man, I'm not convinced personally though that kirby owns an significant advantage over mario though...

If you want to prove to me that he does however, this sunday i'll be getting my new lan adapter. Challenge me and prove that kirby has an advantage. you can keep ranting on about kirby>Mario, but if you think you can convince me that way, your wasting your time.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Although this really isn't a battle thread, I think I'll probably feel like a pansy if I refuse. Unfortunately, I don't really have my Kirby ready yet (still needs lots of practice, and I can only do that on weekends), so you might need a better representative from the Kirby side. After all, he isn't even my main, I'm just learning the theory behind playing him. Sorry chookay Although I might take that challenge in the future, in the meantime I'm happy to debate here against you, not necessarily on Kirby vs. Mario. For the time being it looks like this climactic clash will have to remain either neutral or disputed.

Anyway, on to ROB vs. Ness (just trying to help you fill this out, IvanEva, sorry to spam this board with my opinions). I like both of these characters, so there shouldn't be any bias here.

Smash Attacks
On the ground, ROB outranges Ness's f-smash bat with his d-smash. I think Ness might outrange with the d-smash of his own, but the yo-yo is one of the weakest smash moves in terms of knockback. Although Ness's u-smash and d-smash are weak, they provide more ability for combos. These are easier to pull off against ROB because of his large size.
Advantage: Neutral

Projectile Matchup
ROB's lazer and gyro are undoubtedly good projectiles, but they require time to charge so ROB can't always use them effectively. Fortunately, the lazer charges as you play, and the gyro is cancellable, so if the player can read the opponent effectively, they will know when to stop charging. ROB can also use his excellent ground game to stall while charging the lazer, but Ness may take this opportunity to projectile spam ROB from a distance. If need be, ROB can deflect PK Thunder and Fire with his side-B, but due to its lag he may be better off just shielding or dodging. Ness' projectiles, are extremely spammable (especially because of PK Thunder's trapping abilites) and that means either camping or more combos. Besides, Ness can PSI Magnet ROB's lazer in the first place. Overall, if the ROB is good enough at stalling this one evens out, but I'm going to have to give this one to Ness.
Advantage: Ness

Close Quarters
ROB's ranged tilts and powerful smashes win the day on this one. Ness, while able to link attacks together, is extremely unspectacular when grounded. The only one of his ground-based attacks that is able to KO is his f-smash. Even if he were to score a hit against ROB, that crazy up-B can still carry him back most of the time.
Advantage: ROB

In the Air
Ness' aerials are where he really shines. While his nair is unspectacular, his fair can rack up damage and his bair, uair, and dair can all KO well. Unfortunately for Ness, ROB has a much better range. ROB's fair beats Ness's bair, and his bair beats Ness's fair. His uair can juggle Ness over and over when aided by the jet pack, stopping Ness's spike in its tracks. Even his dair can outrange Ness's uair, but this is less noticeable because it is harder to hit with due to ROB's quick halt in momentum. When it does hit, it can spike at ridiculously low percentages but, as I argued above against Mario, an easier-to-hit spike beats a more powerful one any day.
Advantage: ROB

Off the Edge
Both characters are great at edgequarding, Ness with his PK Thunder and Flash and ROB with his lazer, gyro, and superb aerial ability. Ness's talents, however, are canceled due to ROB's broken up-B, and if ROB really wants to, he can go underneath the stage and come up on the other edge. Ness suffers due to his extremely gimpable recovery: ROB can just run above the PK Thunder and cancel it, sending Ness tumbling to his doom prematurely. Assuming Ness is close enough to the stage, ROB can either WOP him with a fair or try to land a spike, however hard that may be. It looks like ROB takes the win on this one.
Advantage: ROB

There you have it, I guess ROB wins this matchup. It looks like you should wait for some other opinions, though... it's better to allow opponents a chance to fight back.

I'll start thinking about ROB vs. Lucas soon, hopefully that will help make that particular box undisputed.

 

[Gleam]

I find it hard that Yoshi has a distinct advanatage over Ganondorf. In fact, from my testing, Ganondorf pretty much outclasses Yoshi.

Yoshi's B-forward can easily be nullified with Ganon's Flame Choke.

His eggs have very little knockback, and are easily out prioritorized. Not saying they can't be annoying, or affecting, but just they only do so much.

Ganondorf's aerials have more reach, priority, damage, and execution speed.

His ground related have better range, knockback, and damage.

His smashes have better range, knockback, and damage.

I'd just like to know what makes Yoshi so much better?

 

[cHooKay]

Kiwikomix, face me whenever you're ready, dont forget my name. And yeah, this chart does kinda hint a tier list...

 

[Vaul]

The people on the left are (you) and you are judging if they are good against the ones on the top. This should make since. It states, how I read it that Wolf is better than Jigglypuff and Bowser. I don't understand what others think about how wrong the list is.

Assuming you directed this to me....yea...I am well aware. I meant having the top banner on the bottom as well, so when you look up the matchups for some one near the bottom, say zelda, you dont have to scroll back up. By also having it at the bottom, it'd be easier to read. Nothing too controversial.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I didn't ignore you Shadow I crushed your argument.

I think Marth has advantage on Sonic for all the reasons I talked about. In match-up analysis you look at specific attributes and the best strats that each character possesses. Marth can zone Sonic really well, its not like Sonic can't be punished for any mistakes he does either.

Marth is a better punisher then Sonic. Marth is stronger then Sonic. Marth has better zoning then Sonic. Marth gimps recoveries better then Sonic. Marth has a better close range game then Sonic. Marth has a better overall moveset.

Sonic has a betetr grab game and a better recovery.

Sonic is low tier materal and Marth is high tier at worst.

To make an argument that Sonic has advantgae on Marth you gotta do better then Sonic can punish well. You have to be able to make case that Sonic shuts Marth down or shuts down key aspects of his game.

That said...a good chunk of the matches I have niot played vs anyone good with them. That's the beauty of analysis. It's not hard to do you just have to take the attributes of the character into consideration and what they are capable of. Also it helps that Brawl is simple as hell.

Anyway, you can disregard my post as I don't care all that much.

Like I said, the burden of proof is on you since you are claiming that a poor character has advantage on a good one, which I don't believe.

Also IC's have good grabs, but what matters is how easy it is to get grabs in certian match-ups and how easy or difficult it is for an opponent to split them up and kill nana which would also make it impossible to get grabs. So in this case MK would have advantage. Rarely will he be grabbed or in a position to be grabbed and he can easily split them up and gimp nana.

In Sonic vs Marth, Marth has better tools. Sonic doesn't kill as well as Marth, because he has trouble landing his kills moves. Marth doesn't die super early. Don't post non sense plz. Marth is mid light wieght not friggin Jiggly puff ok.

You can't punish an f-tilt or d-tilt when blocked so what are you saying when you mean punish?

Look, it's w/e, honestly since I don't see him as a threat to Marth in anyway.

He is just..mediocre.

 

[Meta Dude]

I find it hard that Yoshi has a distinct advanatage over Ganondorf. In fact, from my testing, Ganondorf pretty much outclasses Yoshi.

Yoshi's B-forward can easily be nullified with Ganon's Flame Choke.

His eggs have very little knockback, and are easily out prioritorized. Not saying they can't be annoying, or affecting, but just they only do so much.

Ganondorf's aerials have more reach, priority, damage, and execution speed.

His ground related have better range, knockback, and damage.

His smashes have better range, knockback, and damage.

I'd just like to know what makes Yoshi so much better?

IMO, they're neutral. like i mentioned earlier, 80-90% of brawl matchups are gonna be neutral (assuming both players are skilled with said characters), thus rendering this thread a waste of time. i think the matchup is slightly tilted in yoshi's favor, but it wouldn't merit what i consider an advantage. gindler probably means that yoshi can just overrun ganondorf because his attacks are faster. but i don't think it would be an issue with a ganondorf who knows his character well, it all comes down to shield rolling. yoshi does have a projectile in egg tosses, though. and i'm not quite sure that g-dorf's aerials are executed quicker than yoshi's, and yoshi's d-smash and d-tilt has knockback. and i'm almost positive that yoshi's smashes come out a lot quicker than his. all of that damage that ganondorf does is negligible if he's getting swarmed. what i hate about playing ganondorf though is that he KO's in like 6 hits (sometimes even less), and most of his moves will KO.

 

[bajisci]

shouldnt d3 have an advantage or at least a neutral with samus since d3 can infinite samus....

 

[IvanEva]

I hope these reply posts aren't too long...

Stopped looking when I saw Snake having the advantage over Falco

It couldn't have been too bad if you got all the way down to Snake.

Seriously though, post a good argument/reason and I'll gladly change any match-up. As for Falco/Snake, I too agree that it's in Falco's favor. His lasers and reflector force Snake to come out of his safe zone. They're also good for stopping Snake from using his dash to up smash attack.

When you see a match-up you disagree with, post WHY so that I/we can benefit from your knowledge.

Um... just wondering why Meta has an advantage to sheik? His aerials all have higher priority than she does ... it just doesn't make much sense to me... I also don't agree with sheik having a disadvantage to Snake, sheiks needles can interrupt most of his mindgames as well as his nades and mines... snake is just need bait :]

Meta/Sheik has been changed now (well, when I post the latest one). As for Sheik/Snake, I don't think her needles alone are enough. His tilts hurt her plenty more than hers hurt him. At least, from what I've experienced. I don't know enough about this match-up to make a call but looking at them individually (I know, totally counter to what a match-up chart is for) I can't really see her having an advantage.

That being said, I didn't post that match-up and I'll be happy to change it. It can't just be her needles though... can it?

Mario doesn't suck Kiwikomix, and IvanEva, you do not understand mario enough to create judge him as such, you gave him too many weakness that do not seem reasonable. Mario is too well fit to fight in any situation

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4e6xLCOLY_w

watch and learn dude, and change up your chart..

Mario the red mage? too bad "balanced" rarely translates to "great".

Nobody thinks that Mario sucks. He's not bad, he's just not exceptional. That is, of course, irrelevant to what was being discussed: Mario/Kirby advantages. The only two that you posted that seem to carry weight are that Mario can pellet Kirby with fireballs and that FLUDD can punish Final Cutter tremendously. Unfortunately, both of those aren't much of an issue against Kirby. He prefers the air (he should have had his own landmaster) so the fireballs aren't much and Final Cutter will never be done to land just above the edge like that if Mario is in a FLUDD-capable position.

As always, if you feel that Mario is being misrepresented, post some good arguments why it is so. Convince/teach me. I'm glad that you posted in response to the Kirby thing but most of your arguments weren't really good enough to sway anybody (or perhaps they were? Anybody changed their mind/agree with him?).

I have to comment on that video though. Please, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, don't ever try using that as a demonstration of Mario's abilities. I don't much like Mario but I do respect his Brawl fighting abilities, something that video certainly doesn't. The downright, blatantly STUPID things that his opponents were doing (Ike forward smash twice in a row at point blank range!?), the complete lack of basic DI, and the insultingly horrible disregard for the importance of sweetspotting make me feel more like I was just Rick Rolled than that I had just watched a combo video.

I don't mean to be rude but MAN was that video awful. Your defending your view on the Mario/Kirby match-up, however, was definitely not. I recommend rewording/thinking out your arguments and giving it another go.

(obviously edited to make commenting easier)
1. this is all hypothetical.

2. a good yoshi will constantly pressure him, not letting him charge it, or atleast make it difficult

3. instead of coming up with how a match might be played between two characters in your head, why not actually make something useful like a priority chart.

4. IC should have advantages over everyone since they can allegedly infininite chain grab everyone.

5. i've never had a problem fighting DK (and a lot of those characters that yoshi has a disadvantage) on the ground or in the air.

6. even if someone has much greater priority, if you time you're attack properly, this can be bypassed.

7. what i'm getting at is there are so many hypotheticals and uncontrollables that this chart will never address, and therefore is a waste of time

8. this game is more about HOW you play your character, not WHAT character you pick.

9. go to every character forum, and you'll see videos of people owning with ganondorf and sonic and other "bad" characters, because they know how to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

10. when a sonic is played unpredictablly (which his speed greatly allows, and mischievous spin dashes), he is a forced to be reckoned with, despite his low priority and lack of KO moves.

11. it seems there's lots of people complaining about it.

12. this game is more balanced than this chart makes one think. i believe (if there has to be a chart) that 80-90% of the matchups would be marked as neutral. it's a noble idea, but very fallible at that.

1. No it isn't. Rather, it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a comparison between two characters played at their best, weighing their common attributes and idiosyncracies in search of any differences that may give one of the characters a greater edge over the other. It's not "you'll most likely use move A", it's "when you use move A my move B will counter your attack".

2. Donkey Kong has no trouble charging his punch against a Yoshi. Both characters' attacks have a tendancy to create ample space between them for DK to charge up. Even against characters with low knockback (ignorning DK's high knockback attacks and spacing tilts) charging isn't too difficult. He auto-rolls when you press left or right for a reason.

3. Match-up charts take priority into account as well as spacing abilities, approach/defensive options, speed, weight, recovery, etc. This isn't about guessing who would win or how a battle would go - it's about determining who has an over advantage after comparing the above traits.

4. And how consistantly/easily can this chain grab be done? I'm a bit in the dark about it but since I'm not seeing any threads about how broken they are I think it's safe to assume that there's more to it than simply grab->death. Remember, match-ups take more into account than just one thing.

5. How good a player is and how good he is with that character are the biggest determining factors in a match (unless the character chosen is officially "broken"/garbage). Match-ups have to take that factor away while simultaneously retaining all of the best techniques and tricks that a character has to offer - something that can only be found by humans. It's hard separating the character from the player but nevertheless you should know that wins aren't necessarily an indication of match-ups advantages.

6. And if the person with the higher priority attack starts timing it? What will happen then? Higher priority would suggest that that character has the advantage.

7. Thankfully, this chart is meant to address the things that aren't hypothetical.

8. Are you arguing against the existance of tiers and match-ups? That's an uphill battle.

9. Yes, match-ups must assume that it's between two characters who are maximizing their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. If character A has more strengths than character B, yet less weaknesses wouldn't you agree that character A has a slight advantage? Brawl isn't so broken that a Ganondorf can't beat a Marth. Marth still have an advantage over him though because of his disjointed hitbox, speed, ease of approach, etc.

10. Unpredictability isn't a Sonic thing, it's the GOLDEN RULE of fighting games. It just seems more so with Sonic because of how easy it is to BE predictable with him.

11. The biggest complaints almost always translate to: "This chart disagrees with a match-up that I strongly believe in." That's totally cool here. It's expected and very welcome provided that the complainer helps out this chart/thread/community/himself by writing out WHY he believes that that match-up is wrong.

Sadly, I believe that a lot of the negativity also comes from character mainers who don't like seeing that their character is at a disadvantage to anyone. Generally these are the people who can't/don't back up their claims. Those who do back them up, however, and there have been very many throughout this thread, are a HUGE help towards completing this chart and I'm very thankful for all the input from all of you. This little project has come a long way thus far (and still has a long way to go before we're all happy with it). A big reason for making this chart was to help me get better (I was too late into the Melee seen to be competitive and, as much as I love it, I'll never have the dexterity to be really good at Street Fighter III) and to that end, I believe that it has (although certainly not as much as I'd like ).

Lastly, I should remind everybody that this isn't who BEATS/DESTROYS/etc. who. It's who has an overall advantage, however SLIGHT it may be. Everyone can beat everybody else - it's just some certain characters have an easier time going about doing so.

just trying to help you fill this out, IvanEva, sorry to spam this board with my opinions

If that's spamming than I should think that your 'non-spam' posts have the power to cure cancer and bestow eternal youth on those who read them. Keep on spamming.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Emblem, for your argument of characters having an everything ever better, and being placed higher on the tier list equaling advantage going to said character, I would like to direct you to the Young Link vs Peach match-up of SSBM lore. Sonic doesn't have the advantage, I dun think, since I played a super-campy Marth today. However, he's not at the disadvantage.

Just finished playing SSBM for 2 hours. ****, I miss being able to really **** someone up for being stupid.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can still **** someone up. Just...not as badly.*shrugs.

I can't even double SH fair with Marth in Melee anymore.

I don't think young link has advantage on peach btw. I think it's even.

Also campy/zoning Marth is how Marth plays most effectively. His pressure is good, but he about control and containment. Aggro Marth gets owned hard if you don't know how to do it.

Zoning Marth is easy to play and even more effective.

I give Marth slight advantage. I never once believed that Marth DESTROYS Sonic or w/e so plz don't think that's what I was getting at.

 

[Undrdog]

I took the time this time to actually study this and man, you've got few match-ups involving Pit that are completely off.

First of all let me again remind you that Pit isn't a bow. He has other moves. He's not at a disadvantage against...

Ness - Great, he can absorb arrows. However he can't absorb while trying to recover with his awful recovery. And even if he could, Pit could Wing Renewal his way out there and eat his PK Thunder. Ness is at a horrible disadvantage against Pit.

Zelda - Zelda is an even match up against Pit. Pit is much faster and his recovery makes Zelda's seem pitiful. She can reflect his arrows, but not back at him. This is closer to even, but even so the nod goes to Pit on this one.

Wolf - Yeah this is almost as bad as Ness'. Wolf's reflector screws him over against Pit's Arrow Chase. His weight allows him to be comboed AND chaingrabbed by Pit at low percentages. His moves are laggy if missed and Pit can take advantage of this via his Mirror Shield. Not to mention that the Mirror Shield can reflect both of Wolf's recovery moves. Finally Wolf is much slower then Pit and Pit's multi-hit moves make PowerShielding very hard for Wolf, which is a HUGE part of his game.


Now for the other one I noticed, Kirby I'm confused on. I can't think of many reason why you'd think he has an advantage over Pit. He's small and arrows are tough to hit with. Kirby can nerf an idiot Pit's recovery sure. His height makes SHBairs hard to connect with... But other then that Pit owns this match-up. Longer Range, Higher Priority, Better Recovery, and biggest of all, the Mirror Shield performed in the air can eliminate Kirby's air game. Also Kirby's combos, not going to work on Pit.


Finally I see Dedede isn't given anything and from my experience it's an even match-up. Pit has a very hard time killing him and Dedede has a very hard time hitting Pit. These matches go on forever and what it comes down to is, 'does Pit screw up and get decked?'. If not odds are Pit will etch out a win. If Dedede gets an easy kill on Pit, things are incredibly up-hill for Pit.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

BTW, Dedede's Suck move>Sonic

That hardly, hardly stops a good, or even decent, Sonic user. I really don't see any way that Sonic doesn't have an advantage over D3.

 

[lethminite]

not sure if this is worth doing, but either grouping zelda/sheik samus/zamus and poketrainers next to each other, or making 3 more rows with a combined results

for example, your list says zelda>falco and sheik<falco but against a falco player, a zelda/sheik player will use zelda or since squirtle > DK but DK </? char/ivy a poketrainer will use squirtle

since a samus/zamus player can secretly choose which one they will be, they have to make the choice pregame, but they still choose which one they use, with the opponent not knowing

they obviously need their separate columns but there might be some interesting information gained from either keeping them close, or making a combined row too. (yes i am aware i could make the rows my self in about 5 mins, but it's still an idea)

 

[User33]

Obviously, you have never had a suck move used against your Sonic. Destroys his B move set completley.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

How fast does that start up, any time a Kirby or Dedede has tried to use that, or Wario's bite, I've managed to simply jump and Dair them. And a hyphen smash, for some odd reason, actually goes through Inhale. Maybe it's only if it's timed just right but I've done it before(to D3 never tried with Kirby due to how short he is). and been able to recreate it fairly easily.

EDIT: The main reason I can't be positive as to how well it can catch someone off gaurd is because, generally. I stay away from the move all together. Spin dashes are planned to be JC into a Dair or Bair more often than not with a D3. Which is actually what ends up sneaking the spin dash combo's in later.

Either way, that one move doesn't come close to shutting down all of Sonic's attacks or approachs.

 

[Meta Dude]

1. No it isn't. Rather, it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a comparison between two characters played at their best, weighing their common attributes and idiosyncracies in search of any differences that may give one of the characters a greater edge over the other. It's not "you'll most likely use move A", it's "when you use move A my move B will counter your attack".

i stopped reading after this. at least i should have.

congratulations for completely missing the point of my post. and if you wanna know just how advantaged/disadvantaged one character is over another, go ask people who played at least 50 matches against the opponent's character i.e., don't go on your own unexperienced opinion. for instance, i can tell you have hardly any idea how to play yoshi, much less play as yoshi against DK. go to the yoshi forums and proclaim yoshi is disadvantaged against 30+ characters. go ahead. if it were the right stage (another thing you don't mention) yoshi could just be cheap and egg camp, eggs are far from garbage they just actually take skill to aim, and yes you can camp with them, don't even argue about that.

how easy is IC chaingrab? well here's the only known defense for it: don't get grabbed. there you go, advantage goes to them against everyone.

Sadly, I believe that a lot of the negativity also comes from character mainers who don't like seeing that their character is at a disadvantage to anyone. Generally these are the people who can't/don't back up their claims. Those who do back them up, however, and there have been very many throughout this thread, are a HUGE help towards completing this chart and I'm very thankful for all the input from all of you. This little project has come a long way thus far (and still has a long way to go before we're all happy with it). A big reason for making this chart was to help me get better (I was too late into the Melee seen to be competitive and, as much as I love it, I'll never have the dexterity to be really good at Street Fighter III) and to that end, I believe that it has (although certainly not as much as I'd like ).
[/QUOTE

no, you've completely missed the point (like most everything else i'm not going to respond to). someone once said of the tier discussion thread that it was "a garden for which ******** discussion could flourish". that's how i feel about this one. if anything, the mainers should know better than you what their good and bad match-ups are. and if you really wanted to get better, you would've practiced instead of putting together a useless chart based on your's and other's preconcieved notion that one character has an advantage over another because "i've never really learned how to play the character, therefore he sucks lawl".

and this is not me who thinks this, look at all the people who heavily disagree with this chart. this chart loses a lot of credibility with me, so i sure as heck won't be using it to any extent at all. have fun with your thread.