Bair is suppose to be laggy, and half the lag is already gone. If you don't want lag, don't land it. He's falling on his back, so it'll take a moment for him to get back up, but you make a good point with the u-smash's lack of usability. Maybe decrease the damage on u-air and u-tilt, and increase damage on u-smash?
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Brawl+ Character Balance Discussions: Character 3: LUCAS
- Thread starter goodoldganon
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CloneHat
Smash Champion
Bowser doesn't need some of this stuff IMO.
His fire breath is the most annoying edgeguard ever for people with vertical recoveries, and his up smash is a good substitute for SH uair when your opponent is expecting it. The back air is a kill move, but I guess it's missing something, so semi-spike would be a helpful buff without making it too over powered.
That's what I think.
His fire breath is the most annoying edgeguard ever for people with vertical recoveries, and his up smash is a good substitute for SH uair when your opponent is expecting it. The back air is a kill move, but I guess it's missing something, so semi-spike would be a helpful buff without making it too over powered.
That's what I think.
Problem2
Smash Champion
Are we really going to spend 39 weeks to do character balance?
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
Bowser's usmash goes through platforms on battlefield/warioware/ etc
It doesn't seem that bad to me.
It doesn't seem that bad to me.
lolololol.
But seriously. I dont oppose it though 1 week is waaay more than enough to discuss characters. I think it should be the limit rather than the minimum.
3-4 days is okay imo.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
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One week is probably too long, but the majority of characters are doing just fine. It's only the upper and lower characters that need looked at -- probably no more than 10 characters. At 3-4 days each we could probably be done within a month.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
We'll see how the thread is going. These boards are very active and I can already see a few repeats. But as SHeLL said, we aren't doing this for all 39 characters. At least not at first. There will be topics for the bads and topics for the tops. I'm thinking 10 characters most.
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
My two cents...
One problem Bowser has is moves that are basically useless. The ALR tweak has helped with this, but there are still problems.
Between an option of using his forward air or back air, there's no doubt in my mind what move to use. The back air is just a slightly more powerful but inferior version of the forward air. I appreciate the move has lag, characters should have laggy moves with just reward, but this move doesn't have that reward. Raise the lag, and either up it's knockback power, or give it a semispike knockback back (which is appropriate for the move, and gives Bowser a unique property).
His neutral air and down air could use some overall tweaking, these moves are mostly useless (though the 40% ALR doesn't help Down Air slightly).
The increased gravity has hurt vertical kill potential, while his Up Smash is mostly useless compared to his downsmash (as was mentioned), his Up Air can be even harder to hit with. In VBrawl this move had proper reward for connection, a somewhat low percent kill, a slight adjustment should be made to return it that way.
There are several problems with his down smash (startup, landing lag, too easy to interrupt). Heavy armor would be a great, but possibly overpowered, way to fix this. There's little doubt in my mind the ending lag of the attack should be reduced. It's hard enough to get the attack off, and it's easy to dodge and punish. He shouldn't get a charged smash in his face each time he uses the move.
Another fix for this attack would be to allow it to be cancelled with R or L, similar to Dedede's Up B. We could have this cancel put him in the tumble animation, like Dedede, or simply cancel the move, allowing him to do any aerial attack. This would also fix the landing lag problem, while appropriately adding the trade off of losing the landing hitbox. This would be a great fix for mindgames, and would improve his ability to recover.
One problem Bowser has is moves that are basically useless. The ALR tweak has helped with this, but there are still problems.
Between an option of using his forward air or back air, there's no doubt in my mind what move to use. The back air is just a slightly more powerful but inferior version of the forward air. I appreciate the move has lag, characters should have laggy moves with just reward, but this move doesn't have that reward. Raise the lag, and either up it's knockback power, or give it a semispike knockback back (which is appropriate for the move, and gives Bowser a unique property).
His neutral air and down air could use some overall tweaking, these moves are mostly useless (though the 40% ALR doesn't help Down Air slightly).
The increased gravity has hurt vertical kill potential, while his Up Smash is mostly useless compared to his downsmash (as was mentioned), his Up Air can be even harder to hit with. In VBrawl this move had proper reward for connection, a somewhat low percent kill, a slight adjustment should be made to return it that way.
There are several problems with his down smash (startup, landing lag, too easy to interrupt). Heavy armor would be a great, but possibly overpowered, way to fix this. There's little doubt in my mind the ending lag of the attack should be reduced. It's hard enough to get the attack off, and it's easy to dodge and punish. He shouldn't get a charged smash in his face each time he uses the move.
Another fix for this attack would be to allow it to be cancelled with R or L, similar to Dedede's Up B. We could have this cancel put him in the tumble animation, like Dedede, or simply cancel the move, allowing him to do any aerial attack. This would also fix the landing lag problem, while appropriately adding the trade off of losing the landing hitbox. This would be a great fix for mindgames, and would improve his ability to recover.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
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Agreed -- my point about the arials exactly. I'd prefer more reward and more risk, as I feel it fits Bowser's style better and he has a relatively quick, dependable ground game now.
40% ALR just makes less risk for a low reward. One solution, but I don't think the best.
Edit: In addition, the Bair semi-spike was a very nice feature for one of the few characters to not have any sort of Meteor / Spike or long range off-stage game.
Also, I'd like to see some more input from the BR. I know Shanus and Cape have been playing a ton of Bowser and I don't think I've seen them in this thread yet.
Actually, SH Dair is pretty ****ing good for tech chases due to momentum. You should try using it as such.
Alot of vertical based attacks need to be buffed in order to compensate for the increased gravity.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
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Fsmash is great.
Dsmash needs more range. I've had tons of times where my opponent ROLLED BEHIND ME as I dsmashed and still was out of the range of being hit. Not a good enough punisher.
Usmash is a bit... pointless right now... needs some sort of tweak I agree.
Nair is still somewhat useless, though much better than before (and I have combo'd into ftilt or fair with it before...).
I love dair the way it is, the only change that's personal as I have said before is to have to have it "spike".
Fair is great.
Uair is great.
Bair is fine the way it is, from a full hop you don't even get landing lag, and it's good for edge guarding off the stage. Very situational when you decide whether to use bair or fair, but when the time comes I have to say it's obvious. I don't think fortress needs any changes.
Ftilt is great.
Dtilt is good.
Utilt is great.
His jab is awesome, if they shield it you can just keep going at 'em, not too many characters with attacks that can outspeed Bowser's jab from shield, also combos amazingly into fair and the like.
Fthrow... meh, can combo into fair sometimes.
Uthrow, looks awesome, but is somewhat useless. Pretty much everyone can airdodge before you can follow this throw up with anything.
Dthrow, just awesome. If they don't tech it they are F***ed. And if they do you can often hit them anyway. At low percents you can combo from it with tilts and arials as well.
Back throw... I guess is your standard back throw...
Koopa Claw, Im sorry but right now it's mediocre. Bowserciding is awesome, but the Claw SUCKS for combing if the opponent hard DIs away from you, which they obviously should. Therefore Koopa Claw is not that great, though for tech chasing and approaching rocks. The only problem is you can't continue even at low percents.
upB, fantastic punisher, tech chasing, "safety" move. I don't want it to move faster across the ground, would be too broken.
downB is totally fine, it's supposed to be slow. Can also surprise kill if you get them with the going up animation. Good for moving onto the ledge as we all know. This SHOULD have lag. We can do some fun stuff to it, such as have the grounded DK effect or work like DDD's butt does (spikes), but ultimately it's really unnecessary. If it did work like DDD though, I see some AWESOME potential edge guard spikes.
Fire is GODLY. GODLY. If anything it should be nerfed (though please don't)/ If you SH B and get the opponent right at the tip of your mouth they will get A LOT of damage. Of course this isn't easy to do or the opponent has to be dumb, so this is why it does not need to be nerfed. This method can also be used for tech chasing, yet also needs precision to get that 25-35% from it. AMAZING FOR EDGE GUARDING on some characters (like Ganon, Falcon, the spacies, etc). Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEG9MRBHxrg&feature=channel_page
And there we go, my Bowser analyzation.
Dsmash needs more range. I've had tons of times where my opponent ROLLED BEHIND ME as I dsmashed and still was out of the range of being hit. Not a good enough punisher.
Usmash is a bit... pointless right now... needs some sort of tweak I agree.
Nair is still somewhat useless, though much better than before (and I have combo'd into ftilt or fair with it before...).
I love dair the way it is, the only change that's personal as I have said before is to have to have it "spike".
Fair is great.
Uair is great.
Bair is fine the way it is, from a full hop you don't even get landing lag, and it's good for edge guarding off the stage. Very situational when you decide whether to use bair or fair, but when the time comes I have to say it's obvious. I don't think fortress needs any changes.
Ftilt is great.
Dtilt is good.
Utilt is great.
His jab is awesome, if they shield it you can just keep going at 'em, not too many characters with attacks that can outspeed Bowser's jab from shield, also combos amazingly into fair and the like.
Fthrow... meh, can combo into fair sometimes.
Uthrow, looks awesome, but is somewhat useless. Pretty much everyone can airdodge before you can follow this throw up with anything.
Dthrow, just awesome. If they don't tech it they are F***ed. And if they do you can often hit them anyway. At low percents you can combo from it with tilts and arials as well.
Back throw... I guess is your standard back throw...
Koopa Claw, Im sorry but right now it's mediocre. Bowserciding is awesome, but the Claw SUCKS for combing if the opponent hard DIs away from you, which they obviously should. Therefore Koopa Claw is not that great, though for tech chasing and approaching rocks. The only problem is you can't continue even at low percents.
upB, fantastic punisher, tech chasing, "safety" move. I don't want it to move faster across the ground, would be too broken.
downB is totally fine, it's supposed to be slow. Can also surprise kill if you get them with the going up animation. Good for moving onto the ledge as we all know. This SHOULD have lag. We can do some fun stuff to it, such as have the grounded DK effect or work like DDD's butt does (spikes), but ultimately it's really unnecessary. If it did work like DDD though, I see some AWESOME potential edge guard spikes.
Fire is GODLY. GODLY. If anything it should be nerfed (though please don't)/ If you SH B and get the opponent right at the tip of your mouth they will get A LOT of damage. Of course this isn't easy to do or the opponent has to be dumb, so this is why it does not need to be nerfed. This method can also be used for tech chasing, yet also needs precision to get that 25-35% from it. AMAZING FOR EDGE GUARDING on some characters (like Ganon, Falcon, the spacies, etc). Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEG9MRBHxrg&feature=channel_page
And there we go, my Bowser analyzation.
MK26
Smash Master
I think he was trying to say that it does buff it slightly.
Rather than buff the moves, shouldnt we edit the characters who became super-heavy with their edits?
I'd like to suggest halving the duration of Bowser's n-air, hitbox and all. This will make it a much more useable move offstage, and a faster one onstage. If halving the entirety makes it too quick, cutting off 1/3rd to 1/4th of the startup and end lag will do, leaving the hitbox at half length.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Guys, he's fine. Stop making him better. He's not supposed to be perfect! Tell that to Ganondorf's up tilt, and many other characters' moves as well! 
"Oh, this move has too much lag, it's useless. Make it better! Make it kill at 70%!"
"Oh, this move has too much lag, it's useless. Make it better! Make it kill at 70%!"
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
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Bowser IS fine. However, he CAN be better. This is what this thread is for, POSSIBLE suggestions. If you have nothing you want to say about Bowser, why post here? Seriously.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
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Don't try to change the subject just yet, please. We'll get to Ganondorf.
While I agree that we shouldn't be nitpicking, I still believe his Bair's risk/reward should be reworked. In that vein, just because you think a certain fix makes a character viable, does not mean that it is necessarily the only tweak or the best tweak.
Maybe someone would rather see suuuper strong smashes and keep normal tilts. While I don't advocate this, I'm just trying to demonstrate that there are many different approaches to creating the same end level of "goodness," but with different effects on his play style. And this is exactly what we should be examining.
While I agree that we shouldn't be nitpicking, I still believe his Bair's risk/reward should be reworked. In that vein, just because you think a certain fix makes a character viable, does not mean that it is necessarily the only tweak or the best tweak.
Maybe someone would rather see suuuper strong smashes and keep normal tilts. While I don't advocate this, I'm just trying to demonstrate that there are many different approaches to creating the same end level of "goodness," but with different effects on his play style. And this is exactly what we should be examining.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Good points!
I think we should bring him to a level of goodness, but not utmost perfection (larger dsmash range, stronger fsmash, etc.). Then just play for a while and see what techniques become apparent.
Revven
FrankerZ
Reason for this being is probably because we have character threads in the b+broom so... we post what we think they need in those threads and discuss it amongst ourselves.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
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Yah, I suspected as much. However, that doesn't mean they can't come and constructively critique our ideas in this thread. This is an effort to reach out from the BR -- let's not half-*** it.
Even if they have their own separate threads, if we could have more of the BR's ideas feeding and shaping the ideas here synergistically I think you'll find you get much better brainstorming / analysis.
Edit: *** is censored? ...Seriously?
Even if they have their own separate threads, if we could have more of the BR's ideas feeding and shaping the ideas here synergistically I think you'll find you get much better brainstorming / analysis.
Edit: *** is censored? ...Seriously?
Revven
FrankerZ
Well, I had already posted one of Cape's ideas for Bowser.
Buff Fsmash KB so it kills earlier (seriously though, Kirby Fsmash kills earlier than Bowser Fsmash... and Kirby's Fsmash is WAY faster, does that make any sense at all??)
Nerf Uthrow KB so he can actually combo from it
Nerf Dthrow KB slightly
Buff Fthrow KB
Buff Bthrow KB
And those were all of Cape's ideas I believe and then he said he'd be perfect.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
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Nerfing dthrow would be EVIL(the good kind) and AMAZING for people who actually use Bowser.
And the uthrow idea makes complete sense, except then it would lead into an uair SO easily, which could probably lead into another uair. Oh who cares, let's do it!
I don't think we need a buffed Fsmash, but hey, more power to the Bowser, I am happy. It would be even more awesome to own with his Smash then.
And the uthrow idea makes complete sense, except then it would lead into an uair SO easily, which could probably lead into another uair. Oh who cares, let's do it!
I don't think we need a buffed Fsmash, but hey, more power to the Bowser, I am happy. It would be even more awesome to own with his Smash then.
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
I'm an advocate of buffed Fsmash, if only because "it's only fair" when compared to other smashes. I'm not saying make it an Ike or Dedede Fsmash, but it doesn't really come out much faster than these moves and has significantly less knockback. No moves really lead into it, so when you do connect with it there should be reward.
Remember, this is a character who doesn't excel at edge guarding or non-self-sacrificing gimping (no meteors or special tricks, though some may argue with me on this point claiming his flame can gimp...this is a very situational and unpredictable application of the move, IMO). A semispike back air might fix this, but otherwise he's a character who depends on slow powerful attacks to finish off opponents. If they are knocked off the edge, but not past the stage's boundary, they can recover without too much trouble. This is why it's important that Bowser has slow but powerful smashes than *can* finish off opponents.
Remember, this is a character who doesn't excel at edge guarding or non-self-sacrificing gimping (no meteors or special tricks, though some may argue with me on this point claiming his flame can gimp...this is a very situational and unpredictable application of the move, IMO). A semispike back air might fix this, but otherwise he's a character who depends on slow powerful attacks to finish off opponents. If they are knocked off the edge, but not past the stage's boundary, they can recover without too much trouble. This is why it's important that Bowser has slow but powerful smashes than *can* finish off opponents.
*Puts on flame suit*
Does Bowser really need the faster grab release recovery? It seems like no one really uses it in the videos. If he's fine without it, maybe you could give the grab release to a different character as a way of differentiating them. Does having a faster grab release really fit with Bowser's character as a heavy armored turtle?
Does Bowser really need the faster grab release recovery? It seems like no one really uses it in the videos. If he's fine without it, maybe you could give the grab release to a different character as a way of differentiating them. Does having a faster grab release really fit with Bowser's character as a heavy armored turtle?
YouAreOutOfMy5
Smash Apprentice
I definitely think that Bowser's Nair should give more knockback. Being a former vBrawl DDD main, I feel for characters that have a crappy and useless Nair...:bigthumbu
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
If it could be possible he should have super armor from 0 to 50%. That would be really cool to stay in MKs Tornado, getting Damage and charging a smash xD
Cmon hes soooooooo huge und has his armor. In real Life he would take the first hits like nothing.
Cmon hes soooooooo huge und has his armor. In real Life he would take the first hits like nothing.
call me a noob, or whatever, but i don't think we should be making bowser faster at all (tilts, etc)
If we continue to make the fast characters stronger and the stronger characters faster we end up with a bunch of average all round characters. I am an advocate of strengthening all of Bowser's moves, power wise, and I think thick skin is a great idea.
I just reckon that a unique change that suits the character is better than making all of the characters good at everything. Bowser's "F" in gimping was immediately greeted with ways to improve this, rather than compensate for it with bowser's other strengths.
If we continue to make the fast characters stronger and the stronger characters faster we end up with a bunch of average all round characters. I am an advocate of strengthening all of Bowser's moves, power wise, and I think thick skin is a great idea.
I just reckon that a unique change that suits the character is better than making all of the characters good at everything. Bowser's "F" in gimping was immediately greeted with ways to improve this, rather than compensate for it with bowser's other strengths.
Zodac
Smash Journeyman
F smash does need a buff, kirby has the best F smash in the game you can't compare it.
koopa klaw is fine to, suicide move + better grab range than grabs + can be used in air + most damaging throw + it can kill. It's overpower if anything.
koopa klaw is fine to, suicide move + better grab range than grabs + can be used in air + most damaging throw + it can kill. It's overpower if anything.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
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fullynick,
To a certain extent, you're right that we don't want to homogenize the characters. However, I think you'll find that unless heavy characters have a certain number of dependable fast attacks / safe range or a combination of the two, they will get walked all over by the aggressive comboers without a single chance to use their level 9000 attacks. (This is Ganon's greatest weakness right now, but I'll get into that at a later date)
To a certain extent, you're right that we don't want to homogenize the characters. However, I think you'll find that unless heavy characters have a certain number of dependable fast attacks / safe range or a combination of the two, they will get walked all over by the aggressive comboers without a single chance to use their level 9000 attacks. (This is Ganon's greatest weakness right now, but I'll get into that at a later date)
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
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More knockback on nair is IMO, not what nair needs.
Also, there will be no CC, ever, on anything. >_<
Bowser's speed is perfectly fine as is currently as well.
YouAreOutOfMy5
Smash Apprentice
Then what sir does Nair need? It should get a buff somehow or another, its a crappy move... I still feel for Bowser.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
As I understand these are the popular suggestions. A word of warning, just because it was popular doesn't mean it will be automatically added. Here they are:
1) F-smash Buff
2) A down-B buff/fix
3) B-air sends at a harsher angle
Would I be correct in submitting these 3 suggestions? I'll probably start a new character tomorrow afternoon.
1) F-smash Buff
2) A down-B buff/fix
3) B-air sends at a harsher angle
Would I be correct in submitting these 3 suggestions? I'll probably start a new character tomorrow afternoon.
Wow Ive been gone all week, I wasent here to coment, but I'm very suprised with how well this thread is going. Great bowser buffs have been suggested and hardly any stupid or overpowering ones. ^_^
I would have suggested Fsmash KB buff/ The throw buffs/ Bair buff/and faster Utilt but this has been taken care of.
yeh Gog those plus the throws and bowser will be awsome. Theres no reason now he shouldent get all that! heh..
I would have suggested Fsmash KB buff/ The throw buffs/ Bair buff/and faster Utilt but this has been taken care of.
yeh Gog those plus the throws and bowser will be awsome. Theres no reason now he shouldent get all that! heh..
YouAreOutOfMy5
Smash Apprentice
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
The OP has been updated to reflect our newest character discussion. Everything from here on out will be...
YOSHI
Frogles
Smash Ace
Yoshi could use a stronger, more horizontal dsmash. It's slow but my main issue with it is that it's very weak and sends too far up.
One more thing...
Shield. Jump.
k thx
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I think his current SH increase isn't necessary. Any one have any thoughts on his SH?
One more thing...
Shield. Jump.
k thx
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I think his current SH increase isn't necessary. Any one have any thoughts on his SH?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I have a feeling Shield Jump will be the most popular suggestion...
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