Brawl+ Character Balance Discussions: Character 3: LUCAS

[Bowser King]

Am I the only one who thinks Vb is fine =/

@ICER
It's already better then bowsers in many things.

-Bowser King

 

[goodoldganon]

Here are the popular suggestions for Yoshi I will be submitting this evening. Figuring there are no objections, I'll start a new character sometime tonight.

1. D-smash sends at a lower angle. Possibly more knockback on it too.
2. Fix the side-B. In the air it stops all momentum. Look into allowing it to drop faster on the ground and not put you in the freefall state in the air.
3. More armor on his second jump. Also, remove the ability to footstool him during it.

 

[IC3R]

Am I the only one who thinks Vb is fine =/

@IC3R
It's already better then bowsers in many things.

No, you're not alone, but I happen to like Brawl+ a little more

And I meant that I don't want the Yoshi Bomb to kill like Bowser's O___O

 

[Shell]

No, you're not alone, but I happen to like Brawl+ a little more

And I meant that I don't want the Yoshi Bomb to kill like Bowser's O___O

I believe by "Vb" he was referring to Down (V) B, as people were talking about it previously. Not Vanilla Brawl.

 

[goodoldganon]

From here on out we will be discussing

LUCAS​

 

[Problem2]

Sorry i can't think of anything for him. What are his weak points again?

i have a question GoodOldGanon. are you planning on discussing King Dedede as a character that needs buffs? Sometimes, I feel like he's been completely overlooked and needs a few small perks given to him.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't want to reveal my order for characters but I like your avatar...

It was a choice between D3 and Lucas. Basically expect D3 next. That DOES NOT mean we are discussing D3 now.

I would say Lucas's biggest problem is that he is such an unknown. That and he can't be categorized. We are trying to make him more of a combo character and looking for suggestions to increase his combo potential.

 

[Problem2]

Thanks. Sorry for derailing your topic. I don't plan on going any further until it is Dedede's turn to be discussed.

As for Lucas though, what is really a common problem of Lucas? ummm.... the only thing that truly bugs me while playing is how slow his grab is. I don't mind the lag for whiffing, but I don't like how people can dodge it as a visual reaction. All the other disjointed grabbers have the same problem I know, but Lucas's range is not worth the trade off of a slow grab.

 

[GHNeko]

Honestly, Lucas is made to play similar to Ness.

We pretty much address his little tidbits before and I cant think of anything that he needs.

Maybe his dair could launch downwards better. Make it more of a meteor, but not a spike.

 

[:034:]

I've always seen Lucas as a sort of all-around character, much like Mario, only with some extra perks. He has his weak combo moves, a moderate projectile, strong finishers... He really has a bit of everything, but the problem mostly seems to be that it just doesn't filter into each other very well. I can't really think of a specific killer move that Lucas would be able to combo into... Except maybe fsmash.

What I think Lucas is low on is a reliable meteor: he has two, but they are hard to set up. Giving his dair more knockback could solve this.

To be honest I don't like Lucas at all. So I don't play him much... Only when he's picked when choosing Random during Random FFA's.

 

[Shell]

Problem2: Lucas is a jack of all trades, but master of none -- sort of like Mario but worse at comboing and gimping and better at killing and recovering. I can't really gauge how good he is yet compared to everyone else. He has a ton of potential, and I'm still working at tapping it. Thus, I'd probably wait on anything except these:

A couple things off the top of my head, mostly things Cape has mentioned on the IRC room for those of you that weren't there:

-The mighty U-smash could use a tweak to either it's risk or it's reward. Right now it starts killing the average character around 80-90% while his stick (f-smash) starts killing people around 90-100%. The former is a slow attack (hits 28, ends 98!) with admittedly huge vertical reach and the later is super fast (hits frame 14, ends 46), is among the best horizontal ranged attacks he has and reflects physical projectiles as an added bonus. Other than mindgames or as a punisher for whiffed laggy moves / recoveries, it's almost always better / safer to land an extra tilt and then go for the stick kill.

-Additionally, like any laggy move in Brawl+, what would've once meant a grab or a smash now means either a DC'd charged smash or a grab -> combo (losing you anywhere from 30% - a stock). As much as I love throwing the U-smash out there for the lulz, in a competitive match you really can't afford that. Thus I'd propose either raising the KB on the smash (it's still got a long startup) such that it's more worth the prospect of getting combo'd, or lowering the cooldown just enough that you'd consider using it over the stick sometimes in a serious match.

Also, his throws are terrible. The d-throw stops setting up for anything by 40-50ish %. And for being Psychic, his throws don't kill until 145-150%. Just to top it off his slower grab means that you won't be getting these grabs as often as other characters anyways without teh mindgamez. I realize we can't change these with the current code.

Lastly, with the exception of edgeguarding, his PK fiyah doesn't set up for anything, mainly just more camping. Not just for Lucas, but for everyone I'd like to see projectiles more useful as set-ups and approaches and less useful for straight up camping. Of course this wouldn't make sense for many projectiles, but this is just a pipe-dream of mine. Don't take this one too seriously.

He's certainly come a long way from the original beta, though. Very fun to play as, for whatever that's worth. When I think of something else I'll come back here.


Edit: Flying Dutchman -- if you wanted to make the Bair more reliable, speed it up. Part of the problem is the strange trajectory of the move and it's predictability. Speeding it up a touch might make it easier to land and give him another option on stage.

On a different note, I thought of something else -- Lucas's bair is (as far as I know) the only Meteor attack that when it hits a grounded opponent with the sweetspot doesn't pop them up for a combo, but just knocks them away and into the ground, I'm pretty sure this is techable and thus has few followup options. This could be a necessary thing -- Maybe it would otherwise set up for U-smashes and that would be nasty(?) I'd have to play with it.

 

[GHNeko]

I'd vote for stronger throws if we could mod them. :\

 

[Ulevo]

GoG, why not lock this thread and simply make a new one for each specified character? It's hard to keep track of discussion with everything crammed in to one thread, or to back track on characters previously discussed.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

What about if give Lucas (and Ness) the ability to cancel their Pk Thunder and that they can't fastfall (not sure what's it called) unless they hit themselves with the Pk Thunder.

Sorry if this sounds like a bad idea. ;/

 

[matt4300]

My brother seconds lucas and he says-

" Lucas doesn't seem like he should play like ness. Lucas plays more like bowser or zelda. With moderately slow powerful moves to keep you at arms length, and powerful finishers. All of his moves are made to keep you away from him(throws, tilts, AAA, smashes, ^B >B vB, Fair Nair Bair,) Lucas has probley 1 or 2 moves that even if sped up would be combo starters like the Utilt. "

So in sumation- The best way to buff lucas to compliment his playstyle is to speed up moves, like Ftilt, Utilt, Dsmash, Usmash, his grab animation. To keep people away to rack up damage and finish with any of his powerfull smashes. Just like bowser

What has been buffed for him already suits his style perfectly, but makeing his bair a better meteor wouldn't hurt @_@

EDIT: and as shell said his one of his throws should kill earlier... I don't have my bro here with me to coment so I dont know what throw right now kills the lowest...

 

[:034:]

Edit: Flying Dutchman -- if you wanted to make the Bair more reliable, speed it up. Part of the problem is the strange trajectory of the move and it's predictability. Speeding it up a touch might make it easier to land and give him another option on stage.

I was talking about the dair, though. Bair is just overall extremely awkward to me, speeding it up would only give him a bit better RAR approach, and not a better spike move per sé. Although I don't know how actual Lucas mains feel about this.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Ness and Lucas play very little alike..
To me, what Sakurai was aiming for was for Ness to soar the skies, and for Lucas to dominate the ground.

1: Add more knockback to his up-smash.
2: Change the power and trajectory of his downtilt completely. Make it a setup for fsmash and usmash like Luigi's.
3: More power to his throws.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

lucas is a ground based character. if you want to make him into a combo character, you'll have to change him to be more aerial based. that said,if lucas needs anything, it's a better grab, other than that he's actually pretty good.

 

[Arcade]

The improved cooldown on his standing grab is all he needs in terms of grab game IMO. He already has a very fast pummel that does 3%. Getting in two to four of those each grab means an extra 6-12%. His throws do a good job at building some damage and getting the opponent offstage for a bair/dair/PKF/PKT edgeguard, so I don't really see a need to make them kill too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You should list the characters we have gone through in the OP, as well as main suggestions.

Ya, thats all I popped in for. Don't have Brawl + yet, just lurking through here.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not sure how good you want Lucas to be, but here are some suggestions I'd have.

-If his Bair was a little faster it would offer some pretty good options to Lucas' air game. Not only could it be used for techchase setups and such, but its range would make it a decent zoning aerial and better if optional DJC is still being considered (Doubtful but Lucas would be a pretty deserving char for it if so). Might also help with spiking right after tether recovery and being able to tether again for more options.

-If his PK Fire sent at a lower angle or had higher knockback it would help him set up for edgeguarding better. There aren't many positions that would really be disadvantageous to someone playing against Lucas out there so this kind of setup makes up for that. This would also be a decent move for setting up techchase (Though Lucas already has a few). Personally, I'd like to see it be a valid kill move, but that might take away the use of his bat.

-His dash attack has some decent range, but could come out faster to up Lucas' punishing/combo potential (Combined with the other two suggestions this would make Lucas pretty versatile). Maybe a bit slower then Peach's would be nice.

-As others have mentioned, Usmash could either kill earlier or be less of a risky move. (Though I wouldn't think it'd help much since a punish is a punish and I doubt it would be sped up enough). If the move came out faster that would be cool too. Might even be able to combo into it.

Thats all I have for now.

 

[cman]

I suggest that you link to the starting post of each character's discussion in the first post. That will make this thread a lot easier to navigate.

On lucas, is there any plan to change how his (and ness's) recoveries decide whether to snap to the ledge. Yesterday in the irc, I was told that it is dependent on the angle that they are coming in from, but that is very difficult to account for, and it hurts their already bad recoveries. If not, that would be my suggestion.

 

[CloneHat]

Lucas's grab is long-range, and it's faster than before.
His aerials are all good, the back air is kinda like Zelda's heel, if you sweetspot it will spike.
His fsmash is very fast and strong, his other smashes are slow and last for AGES like pika's thunder.
He's gimpable, and his recovery isn't very good.
HE'S DANGEROUS.

That's Lucas.

 

[ToxiCrow]

He's gimpable, and his recovery isn't very good.

he has a bunch of ways to recover, not just PKT2.
-Zap Jump
-Magnet Pull
-WaveZap to Reverse Magnet Pull
-Tether
He's not as gimpable as people say he is
-------------------------------------------------------------------

He's improved alot. You can now use his Fair out of a ShortHop without being punished so easily (thanks to auto l cancel)
he also combo's easier, thanks to hitstun.. Uair->Uair-W/e
his grab game is safer
he seems faster
grab release combo's arent much of a threat anymore (which is what really hurts him in vbrawl)
he's a solid character in brawl+. i love what they've done with him

 

[Zodac]

his throws are fine, better than most just don't compare to ness), no buffing there please.

Up-smash WAS fine until vertical gravity nerfed it, needs fixing.

rope snake: probably the best tether grab, it's really not that bad, just different and is good out of shield (all though out-of-shield is nerfed in +) it's already been buffed anyway i believe but maybe even anothertiny buff could help.

PKthunda recovery is harder to use, i don't like it.

A buff that definitely needs to be made is slightly less start-up and significantly less ending lag on special down magnet absorb.

Pk freeze should definently not go into free-fall state. Also it too much start-up lag, ending lag should stay so you can punish it (should be a punishable move).

F-air is ghey.

and don't buff yoshi's 2nd jump ffs, it is already un-effected by No ASL and other characters can be footstalled recovery to death aswell, no reason yoshi should be exclueded.

 

[IC3R]

Changes I believe should be made to Lucas+:

1. U-Smash :: Launch Power should be increased, and this is supposed to be a killer at ~80% on midweights on Final Destination;
2. PK Thunder2 (Up-B) :: Maybe allow Lucas to use auto-snap ledges, because I never see anyone recover with Zap Jump, Magnet Pull, etc.;
3. PSI Magnet (Down-B) :: Reduce the windup and cooldown times;
4. PK Freeze (Stand-B) :: Minimize the Launch Power of the move;
5. D-Tilt :: Alter the knockback so it brings the foe in closer to Lucas, either setting up for a Smash, Grab, or another Tilt.

That's all I got for now~

 

[cobaltblue]

As someone else stated his frezze should stop you in place instead of knock you upward.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Considering you can't even combo into upsmash, and you can usually only tech chase with it when the opponent is on a ledge above you, the KB definitely needs to go up.

Dsmash should have less ending lag, as if you miss you're already doing 2 more blasts that allow your opponent to hit you.

Dash attack sucks, plain and simple. Using a arial or dash canceling into anything is better. The way it comes out slowly I would actually think it would work amazingly with super armor, but it makes NO SENSE toward Lucas. Therefore, I guess I'll have to say decrease ending lag on it by a significant amount. That or make it come out significantly faster.

PK Freeze is worthless as an edge guard, PK thunder that can get multiple hits in and kill is a better choice, or you can time a bair or fair. Decrease the knockback on it to VERY LOW, so they virtually stay in place when they get frozen and don't get hit up. ONLY THEN, will the move be even worth trying. If you're gonna try a move, the payoff better be worth it! That's the problem with freeze, if you do pull it off, the payoff ISN'T worth it.

 

[Red-Blue]

Higher knockback on his USmash, PK Freeze shouldn't have launcher properties, his BAir needs less knockback, BUT it has to be a 100% meteor, not only when sweetspotted. FAir needs a little more landing lag.

opinions lulz

 

[IC3R]

I've updated my post to include other suggestions~

 

[goodoldganon]

It seems most people feel Lucas is a pretty solid character all around he might need a few tweaks here and there, but nothing like Bowser or Yoshi. Here are the suggestions I'll be submitting.

1. U-Smash :: Launch Power should be increased, and this is supposed to be a killer at ~80% on midweights on Final Destination;
2. PK Freeze: Lower the knockback. It's useless as an edgeguard.
3. D-Tilt: Alter it to make it more combo friendly.

His grabs were being fixed before this topic, hence why I'm not mentioning them.

On request of the backroom, this topic will be locked and the next character, DeDeDe, will be in another topic.