Brawl - 6 months in. What does Australia think?

[Kulla]

Its your own opinion and fair enough, but aren't people entitled to theirs...If people think that Melee is better then Brawl, then they most certainly have a right to say it...Granted random trolling isn't that cool, but its still an opinion.

Vyse for what you said, You know the reason that Melee was still around for seven years? Its because it was a **** good game, it took ages to get good at it, it challenged them not only mentally but physically also, it was fast and exciting but overall it was difficult.

As a gamer I've always loved being challenged, being forced to learn new things in order to keep up, to survive, Melee required this from you, add that to fast reflexes, reading and mind gaming opponents, having amazing hand-eye coordination etc. You have all heard the rant...

Granted Brawl does dabble of this, however it does not have enough to saite the gamer in me, its less about perfection and much more new user friendly, its no where near as punishing as Melee was and thats its downfall for me. Melee managed to have a community for seven years, a world wide one, that was still going hard in America, (maybe not so much here...but Australia is pretty backwards when it comes to gaming).

Brawl has lasted six months after being released and is still getting stronger...However, I dont see it having any of the staying power that Melee had as a competitive video game.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I tried to like Brawl. I really, really did. But it's been apparant to me from the outset that this game was developed in a way to make it as uncompetitive as possible, and Sakurai has stated as much that this was actually his intention. He was incredibly successful on this point. There's no doubt Brawl has been fantastic in boosting the Smash scene, but a small problem remains in that the game is completely ****ing boring to play on a serious level compared to Melee or even 64. This is of course just my opinion, but I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way.

I never lost interest in Melee but there's no motivation to play it and prac up when all the hype and tournaments are around Brawl, so I've pretty much stopped playing Smash these days except at Couch Warriors. Count me in if we're bringing it back. :3

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Edit: I also agree with Kulla's above post.

 

[CAOTIC]

Once upon a time in a far away game called Melee, there was only 1 good character - Sheik. Seems like everyone could be good with Sheik. Then a second good one came along , by the name of Falco. DA Dave was the leading example of how to play the sexy bird with legs that are too long. Then some guy called 'Ken' starts some trashtalk on the boards saying he could beat everyone without wavedashing and using (dot dot dot...) MARTH. lloolololoolololololoollllll sif anyone can even place with Marth. Well... come TG... Marth shoots up the tier list. Then he became friends with Chu Dat, then that's when IC started being considered good. And lastly, right up until the 'death' of Melee, Mango started beating people with Jigglypuff.

Tiers are not overcome - they are made. I believe we're stuck in the 'Sheik' phase with Brawl and are too quick to condone the game when it appears inherently broken, even though we know very little about the game overall. Too bad it doesn't seem fun enough for some people, they might not ever find out how characters can develop.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Tiers are not overcome - they are made. I believe we're stuck in the 'Sheik' phase with Brawl and are too quick to condone the game when it appears inherently broken, even though we know very little about the game overall. Too bad it doesn't seem fun enough for some people, they might not ever find out how characters can develop.

You point out my flawed logic well, and I'm glad for it. It's just that I really don't want people to expect tier changes to be 'breakthrough' players like Ken and Mango. Most of the breakthroughs that you listed were largely due to applying skilled mind games with new or still developing tech. While I'm not convinced when I watch you guys play that you're anywhere near everyones potential, I think Brawl will have to rely so much more on massive matchup experience to make the game sing, if it is capable of it.

As a non player, I'm still hoping. I am however keenly interested in whether people will end up playing their preferred game, like various other fighters revisions out there.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Just keep both games, side by side. You can learn a lot of things in Brawl and apply it in Melee and vica versa. These two games...supplement each other. But then there's the main problem...time. Why does Brawl have to take so long?

 

[_X_]

oh wait, there isn't much to begin with. LOL!

Okay, give me a call when you 3 stock Chris and I'll consider validating this opinion.

 

[Redact]

haha the style brawl is, while chris is awesome, winning isn't totally about skill

its funny though, the majority of people that bash either of the games, are usually so crap at either, and un-informed at it in the first place that they may as well keep their opinions to themselves. USUALLY

there is a lot of flaws with brawl, many many MANY major flaws that aren't in melee
its not the whole "advanced techs blah blah" they're not what determine it for me
i dont want to turn this thread into a "brawl beats melee" or vice versa, so keeping to yourself in some ways here is better

X dont push a useless flamefest

 

[CAOTIC]

Cobalt - give me 10 TVs and I'll make your wish come true

 

[Suntan Luigi]

<3

We (smashers) outnumber the other CW members so how about we kick them out and steal their super big and awesome tvs for Melee. See there is a solution for everything.

 

[_X_]

haha the style brawl is, while chris is awesome, winning isn't totally about skill

its funny though, the majority of people that bash either of the games, are usually so crap at either, and un-informed at it in the first place that they may as well keep their opinions to themselves. USUALLY

there is a lot of flaws with brawl, many many MANY major flaws that aren't in melee
its not the whole "advanced techs blah blah" they're not what determine it for me
i dont want to turn this thread into a "brawl beats melee" or vice versa, so keeping to yourself in some ways here is better

X dont push a useless flamefest

What are you trying to get at, I liked Melee and still do. Hell, I'd still be playing it if we weren't playing Brawl.

But that's not the point. My point was that people keep saying the game takes little skill yet there is such a gap between the best and the worst, which suggests skill... either that or insane/impossible luck. You decide.

 

[Shaya]

_X_, they like to blame that one on the difference between Metaknight and every other character. Which I can kinda agree upon :D

 

[Sylvan]

I Prefer Brawl to Melee.

Brawl will go the distance. It has been 6 months since the Aussie release right? Yet it's sales are almost that of Melee's entire 7 year reign. (brawl, 6.5 M, melee 7M)

Trying to revive Melee over brawl based on personal preference isn't really the way to go. Sure Melee may take more skill (I'm not convinced on this btw) but skill is still in Brawl.

Everyone is quick to Blame MK only FD no items etc etc. . . But thats Melee, not Brawl. In BOOST, I came 4th using Wolf, who according to these two topics:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Shouldn't have made the top 8. The person who ultimately beat me was using Wario, I managed to defeat all MK players bar Kulla using Wolf.


I don't think that alternating is the way to go either. Melee plays too different to brawl. Swapping between two games, means half the time spent mastering either game. A lot of people fall into the "Jack of all trades, master of none". I dropped Melee asap and picked up brawl. My skill is not based on any differences in game mechanics, its practice. If people racked up therr melee play times on brawl, then went back to melee, you'll find how difficult it is to master both games.

Anyway thats my 5c. Take it as you see it.

 

[Kulla]

Comparing sales does not show a better game, the Wii is more popular then the Cube will ever be, so right there Nintendo has many more sales, not only that but Brawl has was more advertising and! All the people who loved Melee were sure to get Brawl. Sales show nothing of how a game plays competitvely, only how well the advertisements did their job.

The simple fact that Melee had L-Canceling, wavedashing and Smash DI all lead to the fact that Melee was much more skill based then Brawl, also its faster and has more hit stun to combo, which takes more skill then the 'hit your opponent, watch them jump out or DI your combo then try to hit them again a few seconds later.' Melee takes more skill period.

Also Mk is hax, its just we here in Sydney arent at the levels Americans are at...so its a much more even playing field atm

 

[Sylvan]

I never said, more sales=better game. If id did, then I apologies because that's not what I meant. "Better" is purely subjective anyway.

More sales=more players. And that is what is needed. Going back to Melee has a good chance of blocking out most of the new smashers from participating. I know I would have never participated in a Melee tourney. There are only so many people that played Melee.

I agree with what you say about MK. It's just that if we all go back to playing Melee, then we'll never get to the American level.

You can't see the backs of people in front of you if your not facing forward.

 

[Kulla]

I dont look at Brawl and see it as a progression from Melee, for me...its two steps fowards then three steps back... To hear people say Brawl is the future and that Melee should just die out makes me incredibly angry. I dont see a reason why I should be playing Brawl over Melee. They fact that there are more players and a bigger scene means nothing to me, sure I love the community and am all for expanding it, but I dont enojy Brawl to the level that I enjoyed Melee, so why should I play it as much as I played Melee...which was alot...

Besides most Brawlers have nothing to fear from Melee, with such a massive influx of players, old Melee vets who complain are going to have no influence over what happens, Melee will never top Brawl...If anything the Melee obsessed will either give up and pick up Brawl, leave the community or try to get tourneys running... I plan on doing the latter.

If Brawl is the way of the future I'm more then happy to live in the past.

 

[Mic_128]

The simple fact that Melee had L-Canceling, wavedashing and Smash DI all lead to the fact that Melee was much more skill based then Brawl.

Pressing L after an attack was skilled? Waggling the stick when hit is skill? Wavedashing was skillful, true, but it still wasn't that hard to do.

also its faster and has more hit stun to combo, which takes more skill then the 'hit your opponent, watch them jump out or DI your combo then try to hit them again a few seconds later.'

Really? I would have thought by your description there that Brawl takes more skill than a combo you can memorize and just spam.

Also Mk is hax, its just we here in Sydney arent at the levels Americans are at...so its a much more even playing field atm

Actually MK's only doing good in one state. Snake's been winning and placing higher than MK's.

To hear people say Brawl is the future and that Melee should just die out makes me incredibly angry.

Should Melee die out? No. Will it? Only time will tell. Get angry over it or not, Brawl crippled Melee, who's crawled over to a corner. Whether he gathers his strength and stays in that corner or whether he tries to hang on and dies is unknown at this point in time. But the fact of the matter is Melee has been weakened severely by Brawl and thinking otherwise or trying to deny it is foolish.

 

[Sirias]

So much crying I couldn't help but only read Jei's and Dave's posts.

Brawl is fun, ffs. I'm 'pretty' sure that most people that were good at Melee hate this game. NOTE. KEYWORD. MOST. Don't flame me or I flame back kthx.
Melee is fun too, sure, but as Jei (or Dave) said, Brawl is the 'new' game. My god, I'm pretty sure everything I want to say has already been said so I'm wasting my time. Oh well.

Think like Dave, though. Newcomers. Durr. They all like Brawl. Brawl's new and funnerer to them, easier to learn and be good at (although I think Sheik could be on par with that OLOLOLO). Although I suppose if you look at it like... Back in Melee we had to TRY and get people. Now it's just like people randomly come. Still, we're earning this because we've already built this much of a community in Australia, so it's only fair that new people finally start coming in. c: So let's not be gay and make it look like Brawl isn't wanted. It IS wanted and so is Melee (to the minority it seems (if you include 'everyone' and not just 'smashers')).

Seriously, if you guys want to play Melee then play Melee, lol? Don't try to bring Brawl down. Leave Brawl as it is and try to bring Melee back, how about thaaat. No one wants Melee to 'DIE' either, it's just that it'll be less... dominating than Brawl. Like what someone said, maybe Dave, maybe Jei... the only two right now who I wubz. Anyway - leave Brawl in tournaments but be more pro-Melee or something, who knows. Maybe if people get good enough at Brawl (newcomers) they might want a more 'challenging' game... although Brawl is STILL challenging. Didn't you just say, Simon, that it felt like an ordeal to win? So that makes it a challenge, right? Boring nonetheless, but at least games don't end in 2 minutes or less like in Melee.

Get USED to it, gawd. I'm gonna cry in my corner now. I'm pretty sure I said some wrong things and gave off wrong impressions OR implied wrong things but I don't REALLY care right now. If you wanna play Melee, go play it. If Brawl makes you angry or sad, no one's making you play it. MOST people that played Melee are GRR GRR about Brawl. Sure I was at first, now I'm kool about it. Just make it so Melee is also at tournaments as well so that the people that would rather play Melee can play Melee. Pretty sure most people will want to play Brawl, so if you have Melee there too they can always choose to play Melee too. Brawl CAN be the future, but I get the feeling a lot of you want to live with Melee and let Brawl go downhill.

BRAWL. BRAWL. YAY. MELEE. MELEE. YAY!

I support both. <3

 

[Sylvan]

I gotta agree with Sirias there. Bring Melee up. Not brawl down.

I dont look at Brawl and see it as a progression from Melee, for me...its two steps fowards then three steps back... To hear people say Brawl is the future and that Melee should just die out makes me incredibly angry. I dont see a reason why I should be playing Brawl over Melee. They fact that there are more players and a bigger scene means nothing to me, sure I love the community and am all for expanding it, but I dont enojy Brawl to the level that I enjoyed Melee, so why should I play it as much as I played Melee...which was alot...

Besides most Brawlers have nothing to fear from Melee, with such a massive influx of players, old Melee vets who complain are going to have no influence over what happens, Melee will never top Brawl...If anything the Melee obsessed will either give up and pick up Brawl, leave the community or try to get tourneys running... I plan on doing the latter.

If Brawl is the way of the future I'm more then happy to live in the past.

Thats a fine opinion to have. But I gotta say I'm the opposite. I dislike it when people say Melee is the best, and if you play brawl you have no skill.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

No one said Brawlers have no skill. They said that Brawl requires less skill.

One thing I never understood about the Smash series is that why do they completely change the physics of each game they come out with? It's a series. The physics shouldn't be so considerably different.

 

[The 2t]

Pressing L after an attack was skilled? Waggling the stick when hit is skill? Wavedashing was skillful, true, but it still wasn't that hard to do.

Really? I would have thought by your description there that Brawl takes more skill than a combo you can memorize and just spam.

There's this game called SSBM - you should log off the forums and go buy it, it's a really fun game.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I've heard of that game before. I heard all you have to do to win is use hax. Someone teach me these hax!!!

 

[Kulla]

I fail at multi quoting but you will get my point...

Mic: The fact that L-Canceling happened super quick, had different timings, could have different effects, could do different things out of it and took most people who tried to learn it months to master...yeah I'd say its pretty skillful. Smash DI...Not only do you have to predict what move you were being hit with, but once again you could do different things with it, Smash DI down into the stage to tech, wall techs, escape Foxes up-air, and survive kill moves for an extra 30%...all with split frame timing...Yeah I'd say thats pretty skill based. Combos also take a **** load of skill... not only because you had to learn them...but you had to be able to move your hands that fast AND set people up into them via mindgames...

Also...if Brawl had more Metagame rather then just spacing and trying to preditct an air dodge or roll (making an exaggeration but it is the majority of what I do in my games)...If it had more mind games...more ways to read, true its still only new and maybe some super awesome technique will come out that applies to all characters and not just one or two...then I dont see how Brawl will ever reach the level Melee was out... Add to all of this that Brawl is slow and less speed = less potential for high end competitiveness.

And im getting pissed over people saying that Melee should die out so Brawl can flourish, I most certainly do not deny that Melee has been weakend by Brawl, its yet another thing that pisses me off, that such a good game is getting overshadowed by a not so good game, subjective yes, but I'm sure alot of people agree with me...

Kas: Yeah Brawl helps the community, and yes, most certainly Brawl is wanted...but at the moment Brawl kinda killed Melee, and thats where alot of rage on this board is stemming from...People arent playing Melee, mainly Brawl tourneys are being held (and yes I know all the exceptions so dont bother pointing them out), and yes it is something I would like to change here in Sydney too.

Brawl is challenging...but in in a way that myself or others want to put the time, effort and dedication into getting better at...Once again subjective but its my opinion and I see no reason why I shouldn't be talking about it...Also, the speedy ending of Melee matches is what I loved so much, and add to that if you watch recent high level games...they can at times go for a good 4-5 mins due to the mass amounts of Smash DI taking place.

Sylvan: never said Brawl had no skill...just that it has alot less then Melee...and I'm sorry if I think Melee is a better game, I can't help but form opinions then discuss them...Sure I'm sick of trolling people saying "ZOMG BRWL SUCKS OLOLOLO" But if your also sick of rational debate then...well its your loss...

 

[Mic_128]

I fail at multi quoting but you will get my point...

Just click quote and then when you want to stop quoting a chunk of text type [//quote] (with one /) in the middle of it, type what you want, then type [quotee] (correctly spelt) to continue quoting stuff. Just so you and anyone else knows how to do it.

Mic: The fact that L-Canceling happened super quick, had different timings, could have different effects, could do different things out of it and took most people who tried to learn it months to master...yeah I'd say its pretty skillful.

Being fast doesn't equal skill (that's what she said!) and as far as I'm aware, the only 'effect' of L-canceling, was reduced lag from aerial moves. There were different timings, yes, but that was the attack that had different timing. you still had to press it at the same frame gap for each move before/on/just after landing. Brawl has aerials with less landing lag, so doesn't the fact that you don't need to worry about that anymore. (Not to mention the fact that any good Melee player could L-cancel in their sleep, so taking it away changes nothing to a Melee player.)

And as for taking months to master, now that we don't need to do that, we've got more time to focus on setups and so on without thinking 'how does X L-cancel again?'

Smash DI...Not only do you have to predict what move you were being hit with, but once again you could do different things with it, Smash DI down into the stage to tech, wall techs, escape Foxes up-air, and survive kill moves for an extra 30%...all with split frame timing...Yeah I'd say thats pretty skill based.

And yet in practice, all it was was mashing a direction on the joystick.

Combos also take a **** load of skill... not only because you had to learn them...but you had to be able to move your hands that fast AND set people up into them via mindgames...

Mindgames are still in Brawl, but now it's not a race to the first combo to kill.
Brawl is more mindgames and less combos. It's different, but not worse.

Also...if Brawl had more Metagame rather then just spacing and trying to preditct an air dodge or roll (making an exaggeration but it is the majority of what I do in my games)...If it had more mind games...more ways to read, true its still only new and maybe some super awesome technique will come out that applies to all characters and not just one or two...then I dont see how Brawl will ever reach the level Melee was out... Add to all of this that Brawl is slow and less speed = less potential for high end competitiveness.

That's still more metagame that the average fighter (Block, parry, walk backwards) and Brawl hasn't even been out for a year and you're complaining about the lack of Metagame? Wavedashing wasn't discovered in Melee's first year.

And im getting pissed over people saying that Melee should die out so Brawl can flourish

Where has anyone actually said that?

I most certainly do not deny that Melee has been weakend by Brawl, its yet another thing that pisses me off, that such a good game is getting overshadowed by a not so good game

You're going to need to get over it, because it's not going to change.

subjective yes, but I'm sure alot of people agree with me...

With Brawl's popularity, I'd say more disagree with you, than agree.

Yeah Brawl helps the community, and yes, most certainly Brawl is wanted...but at the moment Brawl kinda killed Melee, and thats where alot of rage on this board is stemming from...People arent playing Melee, mainly Brawl tourneys are being held (and yes I know all the exceptions so dont bother pointing them out), and yes it is something I would like to change here in Sydney too.

I'm going to tell you (and whoever else feels the same) what I've been telling the Melee boards lately.

Want Melee not to die?
Step 1. Stop insulting Brawl, and the Brawlers. Don't like the game? think it's inferior? That's fine, but stop throwing it at people. You're becoming the Jehovah's Witnesses of Smash.
Step 2. Host and advertise Melee tournaments. Do whatever you can without forgetting Step 1.

Sylvan: never said Brawl had no skill...just that it has alot less then Melee...and I'm sorry if I think Melee is a better game, I can't help but form opinions then discuss them...Sure I'm sick of trolling people saying "ZOMG BRWL SUCKS OLOLOLO" But if your also sick of rational debate then...well its your loss...

Word of advice. do not let me catch you doing this, as I have had it with the morons doing this in the Brawl rooms and Brawl tourney threads (and in the few cases, Brawlers trolling Melee players.) Seriously, that's a part of what is killing Melee. You're making Melee players look like the dickheads of smash. They don't want to play games with a dickhead, so they avoid Melee. No offence.

 

[Redact]

"Wavedashing wasn't discovered in Melee's first year."
thats wrong but i cbf proving it

the one thing i find funny is that most of the people that are winning at brawl the most (kulla, earlier on cao, so on) are the people that say melee rolls brawl, IMO i think they win because they have a much better understanding of how brawl works, and thus and much better understanding of what makes it such a flawed game.

if this is actually going to turn into a debate thread, then ill start posting my opinion on it all

 

[Kulla]

Just click quote and then when you want to stop quoting a chunk of text type [//quote] (with one /) in the middle of it, type what you want, then type [quotee] (correctly spelt) to continue quoting stuff. Just so you and anyone else knows how to do it.

Thanks behold the lesson I have learnt:

Being fast doesn't equal skill (that's what she said!) and as far as I'm aware, the only 'effect' of L-canceling, was reduced lag from aerial moves. There were different timings, yes, but that was the attack that had different timing. you still had to press it at the same frame gap for each move before/on/just after landing. Brawl has aerials with less landing lag, so doesn't the fact that you don't need to worry about that anymore. (Not to mention the fact that any good Melee player could L-cancel in their sleep, so taking it away changes nothing to a Melee player.)

Being fast and accurate and having good timing all equal skill... I dont see how they aren't...Having to learn something to make you better at a game and then do it consistantly in the middle of a heated match is something that is most certainly skill based... True alot of people could do it in their sleep...but if they messed up in a match...they got punished for it. Taking it away removed a level of skill from the game...there were people who had mastered their characters timings and there were people who sometimes screwed up...it changed alot...

And yet in practice, all it was was mashing a direction on the joystick.

At the right time in the right direction, it requires thinking and prediction at a speed that was blinding...most smashers I've ever played cannot do this, I can't do it consistantly...it was and still is one of the hardest things to do in Melee... and yes it is mashing a joystick...but thats a massive over simplification

Mindgames are still in Brawl, but now it's not a race to the first combo to kill.
Brawl is more mindgames and less combos. It's different, but not worse.

However in Brawl it is harder to mind game...but not in a good way, you have much less options...almost all of it is spacing or reading an airdodge, Melee had dash dancing and wavedashing added ontop of that, which allowed for mindgaming on a level that Brawl can't dream of at the moment...Yes its different, but it is also much worse...

That's still more metagame that the average fighter (Block, parry, walk backwards) and Brawl hasn't even been out for a year and you're complaining about the lack of Metagame? Wavedashing wasn't discovered in Melee's first year.

If I'm proven wrong I'll be the first to accept it, I'm all for adding more metagame to any game...so far though Brawls little glitches and things have just made the game broken, I'm talking IC unlimited chain throw...much easier then wobbling... and Metaknights invisibility...

Where has anyone actually said that?

Not specifically but its been implied by a few people i know...

I'm going to tell you (and whoever else feels the same) what I've been telling the Melee boards lately.

Want Melee not to die?
Step 1. Stop insulting Brawl, and the Brawlers. Don't like the game? think it's inferior? That's fine, but stop throwing it at people. You're becoming the Jehovah's Witnesses of Smash.
Step 2. Host and advertise Melee tournaments. Do whatever you can without forgetting Step 1.

True, but I believe there is a place to debate it, and it seems like this thread has become such a place...so here I am. I plan on doing Step 2 very soon actually.

Word of advice. do not let me catch you doing this, as I have had it with the morons doing this in the Brawl rooms and Brawl tourney threads (and in the few cases, Brawlers trolling Melee players.) Seriously, that's a part of what is killing Melee. You're making Melee players look like the dickheads of smash. They don't want to play games with a dickhead, so they avoid Melee. No offence.

I've never done that...ever, I meant I'm also sick of people who do that because they bring nothing to the debate its just plain trolling and your right it makes Melee players look bad... So I'd wish others would stop it...

 

[Atticus]

I can break down why I'm not a fan of Brawl into three fundamental issues.

1. The most significant problem I have with Brawl is the complete lack of fluidity of movement. When it comes to L-cancelling, it's not that I particularly loved pressing the button, it's the effect of pressing the button that I miss. Aerial attacks used to be a smooth flow of motion thanks to SHFFLing, now they just feel clunky and awkward. Jumps are slow and floaty. Dash dancing is gone. I just feel like the characters have become crippled versions of their former selves. The ridiculous random tripping feature is just adding insult to injury, a cruel symbol of Brawl characters' lack of mobility.

2. The fact that there is virtually no hitstun on any move that would leave the opponent in range for a follow-up leaves room for hardly any combos, and the few that do exist tend to be repetitions of the same move. Maybe some people don't care so much about combos, but to me they're one of the most important parts of Smash. What made Smash combos so interesting and fun to me compared to other games with combos is that they're so freeform, owing to the fact that they're variable not only on weight but also on damage, and even at the same damage/weight there are many different options depending on your position. All this has basically been binned in favor of trading single hits back and forth until someone kicks the bucket. Very exciting.

3. So since characters' offensive abilities have been dampened, they must have made the defensive system a bit weaker to match, right? WRONG. Shield grabs are now faster than regular grabs, spot dodging and rolling are harder to punish, powershielding is easy as pie, and you can do virtually anything from shield. The fact that defensive options are now way more versatile and safe is not something have a problem with in itself - it's the fact that it was done in conjunction with gutting offensive techniques.

I think I should mention that I personally feel that those who did not play at least intermediate-level Melee with advanced techniques won't have the same grasp of the relative problems Brawl has. I don't say this to be mean or elitist or anything, but many of the advantages Melee has over Brawl can only be experienced after you've broken the fairly steep initial learning curve and begun to understand the depth Melee has. If I had never gotten into competitive Melee, I would never have been able to write out these issues and in fact probably wouldn't even have had any with Brawl.

I don't want there to be any misconception that I don't like Brawl because I think it takes less skill. It has an easier learning curve and is less visually impressive to behold a high level of skill, but skill certainly exists in Brawl and can be demonstrated just fine. The problem is, when I observe high Brawl skill in action, I'm not interested. I'd always enjoy watching a good Melee match on Youtube, but I can rarely suffer through watching a full match of Brawl no matter how good the players are. My appreciation for the game as a whole just isn't there.

 

[Mic_128]

"Wavedashing wasn't discovered in Melee's first year."
thats wrong but i cbf proving it

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wavedashing#History
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Toadbanjoconker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smash_bros_melee

Was found 16 months after Brawl's Launch.

 

[Dekar289]

that doesn't matter at all anyway, mic

 

[The 2t]

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that at the time Melee was released it didn't have legions of players looking for ATs on purpose. This community was built on Melee's success. If Melee was released at this time and the community had been built off of SSB64, we would have discovered techniques far more rapidly than we did. Saying that we should expect to wait years for important Brawl techniques to be discovered is silly.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that at the time Melee was released it didn't have legions of players looking for ATs on purpose. This community was built on Melee's success. If Melee was released at this time and the community had been built off of SSB64, we would have discovered techniques far more rapidly than we did. Saying that we should expect to wait years for important Brawl techniques to be discovered is silly.

That's how I think of it as well. A LOT of people have been looking for ATs so I wouldn't expect any more techniques to be found at this point except maybe one or two that might be discovered accidentally. Brawl has been given more than enough time.

 

[Sylvan]

Sylvan: never said Brawl had no skill...just that it has alot less then Melee...and I'm sorry if I think Melee is a better game, I can't help but form opinions then discuss them...Sure I'm sick of trolling people saying "ZOMG BRWL SUCKS OLOLOLO" But if your also sick of rational debate then...well its your loss...

I don't understand what your saying here. Why am I sick of rational debate? You pretty much agreed with everything I said in your last post by saying something along the lines of "yes brawl has more players than melee. But I like Melee."

I can't argue the fact that you like melee. What am I going to say? "No you can't like melee that's against the law"

I never said you should be playing brawl. Just that Brawl is the way forward.

Besides most Brawlers have nothing to fear from Melee, with such a massive influx of players, old Melee vets who complain are going to have no influence over what happens, Melee will never top Brawl...If anything the Melee obsessed will either give up and pick up Brawl, leave the community or try to get tourneys running... I plan on doing the latter.

Thats a quote from you, but it's exactly what I was saying.


You formed your opinion and discussed it, yes I know you like melee better than brawl. But as I said before I wasn't discussing that point.

The next bit isn't aimed at anyone. But it's a bit of a rant none the less.

If you want my opinion on the matter of melee vs brawl here is my personal, opinionated rant:

I'm probably one of the people who has been most affected by the melee->brawl transition. In melee, I mained Roy. Unlike most other Roy users, I ONLY played Roy.

That picture is comprised of screenshots of my Melee name. I maxed out the play time counter, and did so without playing even 1 game with someone other than Roy (otherwise 2nd most played would be that char). And before anyone asks how is that possible, I made the name after I unlocked everyone. I think the name was made about 1 year after getting melee.

As you can see. I LOVED melee. I literally played it to death (my controller has holes in it 0.o) Some people are here complaining about the loss of their fave AT. Well. Not only did I loose my ATs, but I also lost my only character. Marth? phest. Marth=/=Roy. Ike=/=Roy.

Brawl=/=Melee

Brawl requires a LOT of skill to play. As I said before, it may not require more skill than melee did. But if more people are playing brawl. Then I want to play the game that is most widely accepted. No matter how **** that game is.

All I want to say, is Brawl is here to stay. I'll be happy to play a friendly with someone in melee, and personally I'd prefer it if I got the chance to play as Roy again.

Brawl has it's down sides, but people buy it. There is an entire new smash community out there waiting to be discovered. I personally do not want to dwell on the past, but opinions are as diverse as there are people. I'm not trying to convice anyone to change their opinion on which game is better. I can't make someone like chocolate over vanilla (or melee over brawl). But I can say, the numbers of brawlers out there outweigh the numbers of meleers. So thats my answer to the question raised in the first post.

is Brawl going to go the distance?

IMO. yes.

Does this mean I want melee to die?
No.

Does this mean I like brawl over melee (or visa versa)?
No.

 

[Forte4Tei]

You know...I've been trying to follow the advice of other people when they say "just pick metaknight and do stuff and you'll win". I've noticed that as each monthly passes on, I've been doing worse and worse. Check out this monthly's results - I've placed pretty much dead last, because I don't own the game and therefore that's where I should place, right?

A sign that Brawl does take some skill xD

But I still like melee more, if only because that's the game my cousins, brothers and I play all the time. I think it's a combination of how Brawl matches take longer and how we've grown that made us gave up on day 1 of it's release in Australia =(

~Vince.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

The debate has become something which stagnated a long time ago. I didn't intend it to be about whether Brawl deserves to be played competitively, it was whether Melee fans need to be accounted for now that everyone has had considerable time with the new game.

No one believes that Brawl should be ditched.
Everyones attention should be on whether they need to cater for differing tastes in the community. Whether this means giving Brawl more time to see a higher level of skill or experimentation with rulesets or give tournaments a Melee booster shot for people who've already made up their minds.

 

[Sirias]

Lol.
So much reading.
How much more can I put up with, gawd. XD

Mic likes to prove his point, is all. c:
Fair enough, I say.

Brawl is skilful if you look at it that way.
Rather than seeing what it doesn't have (wavedashing l cancelling blahblah) look at what it does have.
OH WAIT. My bad. d:
No but really... if there's no wavedashing then the skill is to get OVER using wavedashing, and l'cancelling and dash dancing, no?
The skill in Brawl now is to read the opponent a LOT more. And as you say, it's so ridiculously hard, or something like that. And so now hard is 'too' hard, and so we should just give up, is sort of what you're saying. Or well, you're going to give up anyway. Or something. Or maybe you won't give up you just wanna play Melee more. XD Iono.

ANYWAY.
Brawl's physics isn't something to cry over either.
It's different, why do you have to compare it SO drastically to Melee, gawd. OH MY GOD it's not EXACTLY the same as Melee. How 'boring' is that? If you think about it, having the SAME 'everything' in Melee except... more characters and more stages... Of course it'd be awesome, but Brawl's something different. So. Get. Used. To. It. Seriously, you'll have a lot more fun if you just EMBRACE the game.
EMBRACE IT.

The more you fight against it OF COURSE the more you're going to hate it. Why not just accept that Brawl is here to stay, and that YOU are a part of a community where Brawl is THROWN into your face and just play along with them, AS WELL as playing Melee.
There's no need to criticize Brawl...
I don't really know if there'll be any more MASSIVE techniques that'll be revealed anytime soon, and even so it's not going to be as 'fast-finger-based' as Melee. I miss that, sure, but I can be 'sort of' fast in Brawl as well. Takes a little getting used to to get good at it but eventually you realise everything.
... I'm digressing. Completely.

I don't know where this was headed.
Anyway.
It's just like getting over something...
Once you get over it you see that it's not so bad. c:

Dudes. I bet this was the worst post I've ever given in my life.
I'm sorry if it's fail incarnate. XD
Feel free flame. ALLITERATION! <3

 

[bylim5]

The problem is that so many people like to critique brawl by using melee as a benchmark.
Im not going to be those fools who say "brawl is a totally different game", because it ISNT. All smash brothers games are the same, except brawl is just a reinvention of the franchise like melee was to 64 and future smash bros games to brawl.

You can't expect a different game to appear twice. This will of course upset people because they're so used to a game that they've played for 7 years. However, the fact that brawl is something different, it gives a fresher face into smash brothers and to the smash scene. Chris (ammeren) and I like to play both and we're happy. In fact, brawl and melee brings variety.

I agree with sirias, just embrace brawl...but and at the same time embrace melee. There's no point complaining.

If you have both, utilise both, its not like Brawl is the new game that has to take over all pre-existing games and there's no turning back!

 

[Redact]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=42199054

as i said mic
it was discovered a lot sooner than you think

 

[xeno]

To Violence against brawl tournies. Australia says: Probably yes.

Brawl is a party game, Melee is a fighter. Or at least, thats my 2c and most of QLDs probable response.

Where did my combos and lightning fast mind games gooo?

Ooh, relevant quote from a gamefaq'ers signature

You're telling me that 50 million screaming fans are never wrong
I'm telling you that 50 million screaming fans are ******* morons.

 

[Scrubs]

Atm I think it fails in stepping up to fill Melee's shoes, and I'm not happy that Brawl is replacing Melee at tournaments like Evo and so on... From what I heard at our most recent Brawl tourney is that Melee still has many supporters, and the next tourney I plan on hosting will be only Melee...I think that will test to see if a Melee only is still viable for a tourney....atleast in Sydney anyway

As for Melee and Brawl existing together...well sure they can, but Brawl will always overshadow Melee, and seeing how its a considerably worse game...its a **** shame.

When will it be??

I may come

 

[GI Josh]

I played Melee for seven years. I'm honestly sick of it. Brawl is new, and despite the lack of things such as Wavedashing, there's still good techniques, and Brawl isn't just combo combo combo dead, you actually need to think and adapt more as you play than just have muscle memory of how to Ken Combo across FD.

Plus no ****ing Fox and his reflector of "Screw you Falco"

Also, can we have less of the "Brawl sucks lol", that's Brawl disc behaviour.

EDIT: Almost forgot the main reason, Perth's Smash scene has bloomed since Brawl, whereas Melee it was basically Me, Bringer, Cubed, Quetz, Kenton, Bryce and Niven.

A Melee circut would fail majorly in any state outside the Eastern States.

wow.......
Your one of the most influential mods on this site. And you still know NOTHING at all. Melee is more than just "Combo combo combo" it involves mindgames, more than that of Brawl. Brawl is just, camp, camp camp. It requires so much less skill than melee

 

[ComboTurtle]

wow.......
Your one of the most influential mods on this site. And you still know NOTHING at all. Melee is more than just "Combo combo combo" it involves mindgames, more than that of Brawl. Brawl is just, camp, camp camp. It requires so much less skill than melee

stick it to the man!