Brackets vs Pools

[-ACE-]

Well it's settled. Enough of this theorycrafting that items will be unbalanced. The metagame has been developed without them long enough. Time to add them back into the equation so we can begin to really learn how to play this game.

Right, bones, because that's exactly what I was getting at. Fail analogy lol, I already stated that theory crafting is usually not far off... especially in a game this old. But for controversial topics where ppl can't agree, sometimes it's worth a shot.

There are obvious pros and cons to RR vs bracket, items is obviously ridiculous.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yoooo pokeballs on high. Stamina mode. Flatzone only.
You don't even know.

 

[Armada]

Juggleguy: Yeah that might be true that is will be more "giveing up" scenarios at locals exc. Im not sure Im right I just have my way to see how this would work out if it became the standard.

Yeah Darkrain had a amazing spirit in that set (I saw the set on the stream) and played amazing =)
My whole point is just not around people that give up for sure. But when people realize they can't reach player X those have less to play for and I think that means they will play worse in many scenarios just becasue of that reason. That means it is actually better to play against some players in a specific order (not THAT extreme like I maybe sounded but I think you can see my point).

"It lessens the severity one janky matchup can have on a player's overall placing. In a double-elim bracket, that one janky matchup can make or break an entire tournament for someone"

But those that get ***** by a stupid MU is probably not in the top 8 from the begining and will not play a RR becasue they have already lost in the DE.

KK: Im not so sure about that. Loseing a random set can actually be what makes you lose the tournament. Especially if score overall have priority over head to head (some tournament still have different rules about this).

And stupid three way ties is something I would hate to see be the factor that makes player X the champion (one time in Sweden they had a 5 way tie or something XD)

Kishprime: Yeah I like that people have different ideas and just not accept what everyone is saying. And like you said it's not a correct answer it is all up to what we are looking for.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Nobody said it had to be one way or the other did they? Untimately, its up to the host.
But it was a cute lil' idea.
We were simply discussing the overall most effective stategy.

 

[Juggleguy]

My whole point is just not around people that give up for sure. But when people realize they can't reach player X those have less to play for and I think that means they will play worse in many scenarios just becasue of that reason. That means it is actually better to play against some players in a specific order (not THAT extreme like I maybe sounded but I think you can see my point).

At FC, the TO staff enforced a specific order of matches to be played during a pool, including the final eight round robin. Nobody had the ability to wait it out and play all their sets at the end in order to acquire the lowest overall "tryhard level" from their opponents.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Well FC was just run by the SUPER TOs, the Kishes, who are too good for the smash community and should really be running like... Olympic beach volleyball.

 

[KishPrime]

Well FC was just run by the SUPER TOs, the Kishes, who are too good for the smash community and should really be running like... Olympic beach volleyball.

I think this is one of my favorite quotes ever. I have no idea if he's trying to promote us or trying to get rid of us.

 

[-ACE-]

lmao. Promote.

 

[AXE 09]

As someone who participated in the top 8 RR at FC, I just wanna say that I absolutely loved it to be honest. I felt that being able to play against everyone in the top gave me (along with the other 7 players) an accurate reading of where I stand in comparison to the other players. The hype was absolutely unbelievable (why are people saying that this killed the hype?) and I feel that everything worked out very well.

They even did a top 6 RR for the top Project M players, and it was exactly the same: Super hype high level matches with accurate placings for the top players.

If anyone were to run another very large tournament with this same format, I would definitely support it.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

From watching the stream and then talking to many different people who went the opinions were basically this:

Everyone who wasn't there said the RR was a horrible idea and killed the hype. They said FC is ruined.

Everyone who was there said that FC was the best tournament they've ever attended. They told me the RR had more hype and was better than any other format they've seen at a national. I haven't heard a single person who went to FC say otherwise and I think that says a lot. Props to the kishes for coming through on every promise.

 

[Varist]

i was glad for the RR and pseudo gfs on stream but pissed off knowing that I wouldn't get to see every set right there on stream. i don't like missing matches. but when all the videos come out everyone will be happy again and FC will be remembered as the tournament that legitimized top 8 RR

 

[bertbusdriver]

i was at FC **** was too hype... but i would not like to see a large national end in a 3-way tie at the top of a RR unless there was some really intelligent tiebreaking mechanism that I cannot think of from the top of my head. (Person A beats B 2-0, B beats C 2-0, C beats A 2-0, all 3 beat everyone else 2-0)

 

[KishPrime]

it's been posted a few times, but our tiebreaker for a three-way set tie would've been to seed a single-elim by round record and play it out that way, with the 1 seed obviously getting a bye and the 2/3 players playing it off for their slot in the final.

It's about the only non-lame way we felt would have settled it "legitimately." Can't do a tiebreaker for the championship.

Also, FYI, the system I always wanted to use back in the day was what I believe most Go titles use abroad, where the previous year's title holder actually sits out the tournament and the champion of the final RR plays it off with him for the title. Never really worked out, but I always thought it was a cool way to do it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i too have imagined a "grand champion" sort of setup, but it's hard to materialize in our community.

 

[bertbusdriver]

elite 4 of melee zomg

 

[Juggleguy]

I'm strongly considering stealing the top 8 RR idea for Big House 2.

 

[Divinokage]

Do it! It'll be fun! =D

 

[Jonas]

I dislike it simply because it doesn't lead up to that big, hyped-up Grand Final that brackets do. It may be more fair or fun for the players involved, and if you use arguments like these to justify it, I wouldn't complain. However, for the vast majority of tournament entrants, who don't have a realistic shot at getting top 8, the final rounds of the tournament are just as much there for entertainment value, and it sort of kills the hype when the top 2 players don't necessarily face off last, or when their match doesn't necessarily mean anything until TIO spits out the results of the RR.

 

[Froggy]

I dislike it simply because it doesn't lead up to that big, hyped-up Grand Final that brackets do. It may be more fair or fun for the players involved, and if you use arguments like these to justify it, I wouldn't complain. However, for the vast majority of tournament entrants, who don't have a realistic shot at getting top 8, the final rounds of the tournament are just as much there for entertainment value, and it sort of kills the hype when the top 2 players don't necessarily face off last, or when their match doesn't necessarily mean anything until TIO spits out the results of the RR.

It's not difficult to have the two highest pointed players play last, for Grand finals like they did at FC. Especially since more often than not we'll know who those two players will be to begin with. I'm sure you realize it wasn't a coincidence that Mango and Hugrybox played each other last at FC.

 

[Prince_Abu]

I'm strongly considering stealing the top 8 RR idea for Big House 2.

do a final pool where the eventual 1 seed has to only win 1 set and the 2 seed has to win 2 sets for grand finals

 

[Froggy]

do a final pool where the eventual 1 seed has to only win 1 set and the 2 seed has to win 2 sets for grand finals

That just undermines the point of doing a round robin in the first place. Let the results from the pool stand on their own.

 

[Divinokage]

I dislike it simply because it doesn't lead up to that big, hyped-up Grand Final that brackets do. It may be more fair or fun for the players involved, and if you use arguments like these to justify it, I wouldn't complain. However, for the vast majority of tournament entrants, who don't have a realistic shot at getting top 8, the final rounds of the tournament are just as much there for entertainment value, and it sort of kills the hype when the top 2 players don't necessarily face off last, or when their match doesn't necessarily mean anything until TIO spits out the results of the RR.

Yes but the chances for you to see hype matches are much greater! The top 4 in the US fighting each other? That sounds amazing to me. The likelihood to have a tie breaker can be pretty high actually.

 

[CableCho57]

omg a round robin of m2k, mango, armada, hbox, and drpp?

how can that NOT be hyped?

 

[AXE 09]

I'm strongly considering stealing the top 8 RR idea for Big House 2.

YES.

I support this lol

 

[Sox]

I liked the brackets to pools idea, but what i wanted to see happen was after the RR for the two highest seeds to play a best of 5 or 7. This way you would get to see all the matches of the 8 best playing each other, but then have a final showdown to decide the winner. maybe make the 2nd place seed win 2 sets or somnething? I dunno, and it could be hard to do cuz of time restrictions.

 

[Froggy]

I liked the brackets to pools idea, but what i wanted to see happen was after the RR for the two highest seeds to play a best of 5 or 7. This way you would get to see all the matches of the 8 best playing each other, but then have a final showdown to decide the winner. maybe make the 2nd place seed win 2 sets or somnething? I dunno, and it could be hard to do cuz of time restrictions.

It was pointed out in the FC thread, that giving 2nd the seed an extra shot to win the whole tournament is incredibly unfair to the rest of the top 8, there shouldn't be such a big difference between placing 2nd and placing 3rd. The point of the pool is test players ability against everyone and not just between two people. There is no need to have the top two players play each other again. Moreover we can still have a final showdown, between the two top seeds like was done at FC.

 

[Sox]

How is it unfair? win and get the spot

 

[Strong Badam]

If you do that you defeat the purpose of a final RR. You get one shot at everyone, that's how it goes. It's unfair for 1 person to get an extra shot at the 1st seed, when there's no telling whether or not the 3rd-8th seed could take a set from the 1st seed given another chance. You're just trying to inelegantly throw in a "Grand Finals" from the Bracket Format into a RR format. Do we have a GFs for getting 1st seed in a pool? No, because it doesn't make sense. You've already lost to the 1st seed, so that's it.

 

[Juggleguy]

What does everyone think about this double final RR format?

Run winners bracket until Semis (four players left) and losers bracket until there are eight players left there. Split these top 12 players into two pools of 6, and after those pools are done, have the respective 1st seeds play out a 1st place match, 2nd seeds play out a 3rd place match, 3rd seeds play out a 5th place match, etc.

As an example, take the Apex 2012 bracket:

Top half of winners semis = Armada, Dr. PeePee
Bottom half of winners semis = Mango, KirbyKaze

Top half of losers = Hungrybox, Wobbles, Shroomed, Unknown522
Bottom half of losers = Javi, Lovage, Hax, MacD

Under this format, the double final RR would have been split like this:

Pool 1: Armada, Dr. PeePee, Javi, Lovage, Hax, MacD
Pool 2: Mango, KirbyKaze, Hungrybox, Wobbles, Shroomed, Unknown522

The only two bracket rematches would be Javi vs Lovage and KirbyKaze vs Hungrybox. Both of these would be a continuation best-of-5 set starting 2-1 in Lovage's favor and 2-1 in KirbyKaze's favor.

Hypothetically, if these were the eventual pool results:

1. Armada
2. Javi
3. Dr. PeePee
4. Lovage
5. Hax
6. MacD

1. Mango
2. KirbyKaze
3. Hungrybox
4. Shroomed
5. Wobbles
6. Unknown522

Then we'd have these final placing matches:

1st place match: Mango vs Armada
3rd place match: KirbyKaze vs Javi
5th place match: Hungrybox vs Dr. PeePee
7th place match: Shroomed vs Lovage
9th place match: Wobbles vs Hax
11th place match: Unknown522 vs MacD

Play it out starting from the 11th place match, ending with the 1st place match. This prevents the possibility of one player making a long, methodical run through losers bracket and forcing everyone to watch all his sets along the way (ex: Hungrybox at Apex 2012).

It's an in-between format for those who like climactic bracket-style endings and those who like as many top player matchups as possible.

 

[KishPrime]

You're really screwed if you have two three-way ties in there. Unless you're fine with tiebreaking first place by round for entry into Grand Finals. You also lose out on, say, videos of the top player up against the 3rd and 4th best players possibly if the pool falls oddly, but that's a fairly minor concern.

Just depends what you want. I was considering doing something like that, but I couldn't find a good way to get there, especially in terms of avoiding rematches, and of course, the tiebreak. I hadn't considered the bracket back into RR format yet, though.

Still, unless you have a really good plan for a tiebreak, I'd probably not use that format. I still don't believe you should ever be able to tie for first by set record and get eliminated, otherwise the pool format essentially fails in its job.

 

[Bones0]

Even as a pessimistic skeptic of RR, I give Juggleguy my support for further testing at The Big House 2. ;D

Not sure I like the whole split into two pools thing though (and I actually thought of something similar right before I read your post).

 

[Juggleguy]

Yeah, I don't like the double final RR format at all now that I read KishPrime's post. Losing a three-way tiebreaker could mean you go from playing in the 1st place match to playing in the 5th place match based on mere percentage points in game records. Top 8 RR seems to be the perfect sweetspot, and I'm also on board for the seeded single-elim bracket of X players if there happens to be the dreaded X-way tie.

 

[KishPrime]

Nothing really wrong with a 6-man RR as well...8 may actually be a bit excessive in my opinion. The skill gap from first to eighth place is fairly significant.

That said, 8-man should make sure you get EVERYONE that really should be in there with minimal bracket-screw issues.

 

[WombozComboz]

What about the MLG SC2 Format?

 

[Bones0]

What about the MLG SC2 Format?

Care to elaborate?