***Bowser Moveset Discussion, Move 16: Up B, Fortress***

[Collective of Bears]

Duh.

10duhs

I never knew Bowser was so broken.

 

[MrEh]

I never knew Bowser was so broken.

The words "Bowser" and "broken" do not go well together.

 

[hippiedude92]

his flamebreath ***** falcos and foxs sidebs so badly. sexy edgeguarding probably said before anyways lol

 

[B!squick]

It's power is over 9000!

... Man, I'm kinda getting tired of hearing that all the time. :/

 

[Blistering Speed]

Stop the ****ing spam. Overdone internet meme's mindlessly repeated aren't entertaining, especially when future Bowser's are looking through these posts for help on the move and they have to sift through piles of ****.

And just because MrEh posts one sentence on a move, doesn't mean some of you drones have to copy. Actually contribute or gtfo.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Stop the ****ing spam. Overdone internet meme's mindlessly repeated aren't entertaining, especially when future Bowser's are looking through these posts for help on the move and they have to sift through piles of ****.

And just because MrEh posts one sentence on a move, doesn't mean some of you drones have to copy. Actually contribute or gtfo.

You didn't contribute any more than we did.

 

[Bowser King]

Stop the ****ing spam. Overdone internet meme's mindlessly repeated aren't entertaining, especially when future Bowser's are looking through these posts for help on the move and they have to sift through piles of ****.

And just because MrEh posts one sentence on a move, doesn't mean some of you drones have to copy. Actually contribute or gtfo.

You need to calm down a bit D:

Sure it was a little spammy and interne memes get annoying but you don't need to go berserk. The other character boards are a lot more spammy ad were likely the most contributing character board out there. We have like 1 pointless thread. Also, I seriously doubt beginners are going to be going through all these pages. Maybe read the summaries but nothing else.

-Bowser King

 

[Jim Morrison]

Fire on the edge. It's good.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You didn't contribute any more than we did.

I haven't said anything on this move. I will of course fabricate the summary because I, y'know, make the guide, but you're ignoring that clearly. I'd much rather people simply didn't say anything then post 7 times and spam up the thread, making it more difficult to read through.

Firebreath is much improved from Melee, so drop any prior misconceptions, it is however very matchup dependant, in some it wrecks recoveries and is a virtually unpunishable damage racker, in others it's simply thrown out rarely to break the norm. The addition of aiming it to follow DI, it's quicker startup and afterlag and Brawl's physics all make this a much more valid option. First coming out frame 23, it's of course a move to be spaced and planned, not simply thrown out. However once the flame is out and your opponent is caught in it, they can:
1) Shield and watch it get EATEN. It also of course, outlasts spotdodges.
2) SDI away, they've taken damage and you're back to neutral.
3) They SDI through the fire to you. This is the reason this attack becomes situational in some matchups, because the character can SDI through and punish your afterlag. This can be countered by ending it quickly and following with a quick Klaw, Jab or Fortress, though this isn't a reliable solution. Some characters simply cannot SDI through however, in which case the Fire becomes very important in the matchup.
Some characters also, because of the fire's disjointed priority, find this an effective edgeguard e.g. Ike's Quickdraw and Aether are both beaten by it and Ike can't SDI through, so with clever aiming it WRECKS Ike off the edge.
The move can be SH'd for either offensive or defensive purposes. When used smartly, Fire becomes a real asset and it can really put the fear of God into your opponent.

Notice how I actually develop my points so it's actually useful. Note this isn't directed at everyone, you know who you are.

*EDIT* Sorry guys, I went OTT. Please place the blame where it belongs, with my hangover.

 

[Red Arremer]

^ This is a good summary, and I completely agree with everything said.

But concerning your complaint... a little bit of having fun should be allowed, don't you think, too? I doubt there's gonna be future Bowsers (those are existing? O.o) being disgusted and scared away by a couple of posts horsing around.

And yes, it's true - in comparison to other character boards, the Bowser boards are calm and chilly - and listen to arguments. Hence I decided to join in. Of course, if you don't want me here, I can leave again~

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yes, you're right, I apologise, it was irrational and stupid of me.

Does anyone having anything else to contribute? If not, I'll use my post as the OP summary and we can move on.

 

[Bowser King]

^ This is a good summary, and I completely agree with everything said.

But concerning your complaint... a little bit of having fun should be allowed, don't you think, too? I doubt there's gonna be future Bowsers (those are existing? O.o) being disgusted and scared away by a couple of posts horsing around.

And yes, it's true - in comparison to other character boards, the Bowser boards are calm and chilly - and listen to arguments. Hence I decided to join in. Of course, if you don't want me here, I can leave again~

Don't leave!

A little bit of fun isn't bad :D

-Bowser King

 

[Phiddlesticks]

If I was a new Bowser player I would not read through an entire page of "durrr durrr chuck norris heh heh heh" and "durrrrrrr t3h ph1r3 durrrr" just so I could find some useful information.

 

[Liquid Gen]

If I was a new Bowser player I would not read through an entire page of "durrr durrr chuck norris heh heh heh" and "durrrrrrr t3h ph1r3 durrrr" just so I could find some useful information.

Why would you read through it anyway, when the summarization of all the posts are in the OP?

 

[Collective of Bears]

Why would you read through it anyway, when the summarization of all the posts are in the OP?

The man makes a good point.

 

[calv]

Does anyone ever try jumping backwards over the opponent and doing a mid air switch flame, Bowser falls suddenly in the opposite direction that he was travelling. I find it catches a lot of people off guard, obviously it's not to be used too often though.

 

[brinboy789]

i actually dont use fire that much...only for edgeguarding and not even much for edgeguarding...i just dont know when to use it lol...

 

[Blistering Speed]

Why would you read through it anyway, when the summarization of all the posts are in the OP?

It's a summarization. Note how some of your points in your essays aren't mentioned. The summaries are there for people who want a brief overview, but the posts themselves are linked for people wanting greater detail. This way it caters to all levels of player.

Move #14 is Side B.

THIS DISCUSSION ONLY PERTAINS TO THE SIDE B AND NOT TO THE AT KLAWHOPPING. DISCUSSION OF KLAWHOPPING WILL BE IN IT'S OWN KLAWHOPPING DISCUSSION WHEN WE MOVE ONTO ATs. YOU CAN MENTION HOW KLAWHOPPING INCREASES SIDE B'S UTILITY, BUT NOT THE AT ITSELF.

Discuss...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Side-B is an extremely quick attack, which deals 18%. I don't really know if this is used as a punisher, but it seems quite obvious, because the 18% is amazingly good.
This move is your friend when you're high up the same stock and the other is low. The person with the lowest % has most control over Koopa Klaw, however some opponents forget they can steer, and that's a free SD for you.
It's a grab you can use in the air, your quickest aerial move.

Fun fact: The damage doesn't happen untill he pops out. When you're playing FFA/teams, someone else can hit you when you're lying on top of them and the other will get no damage.
This attack also has decent knockback. It is a decent killer on the edge.

 

[Red Arremer]

The klaw is also very useful against, for example, Snake's recovery. You can grab him outta his Cypher and get free damage/bowsercide on him.

The usefulness, though, depends on the character. While it is great for damage racking against most ranged characters such as Ike or Olimar, it's rather dangerous against some others, such as Lucario.

Generally, though, the klaw is a great move, as there's no escape for the enemy once you grabbed them - either you'll take their stock, or they'll get damage. It's good for punishing, as well.

And, as you already said in the introduction, the Klawhop is yet another positive aspect of it.

 

[Sliq]

The Klaw is probably Bowser's best move, even better than fortress. I just checked the frame data guide, and I have a bunch of interesting ideas for using Bowser. I'm going to make a thread about my musings which you can look for, but I'll talk about side be in here.

Side B has 3 frames of landing lag. That is a negligible amount, seeing as a Fox nair L-CANCELED has more landing lag than this. What I am proposing:

Short hop in with side b, and upon landing, side b.

What this means. You go into approach. You jump in with a FF Klaw. If your opponent rolls or spot dodges, depending on the timing, you will be at the fram advantage. If they spot dodge, you can pretty much DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. For example, you sh in, ff klaw, they spot dodge, and you down b, hitting them as they come out of their spot dodge KO'ing them. Hell, you could Klaw again upon landing if you wanted.

I have no idea why I have not thought of this before or why no one else does this, but this is BROKE AS **** (on paper).

My new approach game is now larger because now I have AC fair, shielding, shield dashing away, grab, and now Klaw.

You can't shield the Klaw, so your ONLY reliable option to counter it is to dodge, which gives you the advantage, or intercepting with an aerial, and if you mix in all of your options, they will end up eating more AC fairs or mispacing a dash in shield, leading to DINO ****.

Furthermore, it does awesome damage, AND can be suicided for the win. The only hitch in the plan I see is that your opponent controls where you go, but this is a minor nuisance. If you are winning in percent then you control it, and if you are a stock down, you should be winning in percent anyways.

Any thoughts on my new **** idea?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Klaw seems so much better on paper
Still a good move though.

Also, a good use for this is ledgehop to side-B on opponent close to you.
On VERY situanitional occasions, when characters try to intercept you when off-stage (Falcon try to knee), you can do a side-B and get to the stage quickly.
Most opponents NEVER DI to the edge, because even though they're up a stock, they don't want to get SD'd O_o.

 

[Blistering Speed]

If something's logically good on paper but not in the actual game, people just aren't putting into good enough practice.

I can't believe I never thought of using it Sliq's way. I've always employed it a little but never really thought of it's potential up until now.

 

[Vorguen]

The Klaw is epic in every way. It doesn't even need a discussion.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Does anyone know exactly how disjointed Klaw's range is? It ALWAYS surprises me. If someone could draw a hitbox in Paint or something that'd be great (again, my Wii is still in for repairs ).

 

[MrEh]

Does anyone know exactly how disjointed Klaw's range is? It ALWAYS surprises me. If someone could draw a hitbox in Paint or something that'd be great (again, my Wii is still in for repairs ).

It has a okay hitbox on the ground.

Aerial Klaw has a hilarious hitbox though.

 

[hippiedude92]

dayum this discussion goes by quickly so obviously most of the stuff were said, ill just say that its fun to mind game people with it, perfect for retreating and approaching, forcing people into shields and/or spotdodges ^_^

 

[Hobobloke]

bump to raise this from the dead

 

[Bragi]

I just have to say that I used to think Side B was Bowser's best move, but no more. It's a strong second to Up B. Now that I'm using Bowser in tournaments more it's harder to land the thing aerially. People manage to stay just out of range/counter with a faster aerial. I hate it. Anyway, the grab release stuff with it is still fun, and of course the Bowsercide is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[Blistering Speed]

My bad, I completely forgot about this thread. I don't play Bowser anymore, I used him as my main secondary for a couple months and then sort of...just grew bored of him, that's why I don't contribute here anymore. I will however fulfill my obligation and keep working on this thread.

I'll edit this to start the next move's discussion as soon as I've done the summary (sometime later today).

 

[St. Viers]

^^sounds good ^__^

 

[Blistering Speed]

And we're updated. Yay.

Move #15 is Down B.

Discuss...

 

[Kitamerby]

This move shouldn't hit as often as it does.


This move's effectiveness is entirely dependant on how loud you scream your appropriate one-liner as you perform the attack. The louder the scream, the more likely it is to KO.

 

[St. Viers]

Bowser Bombing the ledge is fun--the fact that he can easily be knocked out of it on the way down makes it less effective....

 

[MrEh]

Kill things with it.

 

[Hobobloke]

My testing shows that if hit with the first hit of the downb the second hit can always be airdodged however most aren't prepared and also one jab then downb will break any full shield (both hits) which shows how much it wrecks shields.

The downb to the ledge is a fairly safe move and a good way to recover high its speed means that unless they are ready to knock you out of it they most lkely won't.

Jeez i had somethin else to say but forgot will post later if i remember.

 

[Bragi]

Yeah, I like Down B. I wish the second hit was guaranteed, but alas. It's great for getting back to the ledge, and I find this important for Bowser, since having opponents under me is not generally a good thing. The shield-breaking properties are great, you just have to keep an eye out for an opportunity.
And as punishable as the move is when whiffed, I find that if you pick the right time, even missing it isn't so bad. I don't think I've ever been killed as a result of missing the move (except when I've missed the ledge--that's definitely happened.)

 

[Gimpyfish62]

The Klaw is probably Bowser's best move, even better than fortress. I just checked the frame data guide, and I have a bunch of interesting ideas for using Bowser. I'm going to make a thread about my musings which you can look for, but I'll talk about side be in here.

Side B has 3 frames of landing lag. That is a negligible amount, seeing as a Fox nair L-CANCELED has more landing lag than this. What I am proposing:

Short hop in with side b, and upon landing, side b.

What this means. You go into approach. You jump in with a FF Klaw. If your opponent rolls or spot dodges, depending on the timing, you will be at the fram advantage. If they spot dodge, you can pretty much DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. For example, you sh in, ff klaw, they spot dodge, and you down b, hitting them as they come out of their spot dodge KO'ing them. Hell, you could Klaw again upon landing if you wanted.

I have no idea why I have not thought of this before or why no one else does this, but this is BROKE AS **** (on paper).

My new approach game is now larger because now I have AC fair, shielding, shield dashing away, grab, and now Klaw.

You can't shield the Klaw, so your ONLY reliable option to counter it is to dodge, which gives you the advantage, or intercepting with an aerial, and if you mix in all of your options, they will end up eating more AC fairs or mispacing a dash in shield, leading to DINO ****.

Furthermore, it does awesome damage, AND can be suicided for the win. The only hitch in the plan I see is that your opponent controls where you go, but this is a minor nuisance. If you are winning in percent then you control it, and if you are a stock down, you should be winning in percent anyways.

Any thoughts on my new **** idea?

i do this - or did this when i played brawl - it has its uses but its no magical ball of death like it could seem like on paper

if rather than spotdodging in place the person you're playing learns to roll away then this becomes nearly useless - and as soon as they realize this is basically you're only moderately fast option from the air they realize that you just need to constantly be fading away from bowser chipping at him and the klaw loses 90% of its uses

still an amazing move probably still his best

 

[Cassius.]

Ugh wtf I just now realized that I never made an account on SmashBoards. I'm so dumb >_<. But anyways, I really don't use Bowser bomb often because it seems like everyone I fight predicts it now and sets up to punish me. I use it ALOT in the jab cancel combo because its a good sheild drainer.

Also I can't really grab the edge too well with Bowser, so I just use the down b to get to the edge faster. It also hits anyone who's going for the edge :D...Although, it is hella risky if your opponent hits the edge before you do...you'll just SD :\

It's also semi-good for making it to a ledge [when you're below it] because Bowser moves up a bit before he plummets down. I've seen alot of Bowsers drop down and down b to the edge again.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

The only thing I really like to use Bowser bomb for is kinda like a mindgame recovery if they walk toward the middle of the stage, i can just go straight to the ledge. I HATE missing it though!