***Bowser Moveset Discussion, Move 16: Up B, Fortress***

[Liquid Gen]

Okay G2.

Also, the consensus on dtilt is very good, but use it sparingly?

 

[LinIsKorean]

Yeah, my bad Gf2tw.

Back on topic : Second hit also has more knockback iirc.

 

[Bowser King]

I love dilt. Using it feels so good and quick. It's a great move to use out of release. The only problem is I don't use it enough. Ftilt gives me the range I need and I usually neglect dtilt when it comes to killing. Anyway, dilt, if used to much, gets highly predictable. I try to keep it as a secret move

-Bowser King

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i've been using dtilt with the crawl every now and again, it works pretty well.

what you should do is when they're coming in from the air at high %, crawl back a bit so there attack misses/they don't get behind you and dtilt for the ko

 

[Blistering Speed]

If you're going to post about something other then the move (looking at you Gftw), at least mention something about it, otherwise people are going to have to sift through posts of spam to get to actual discussion.

Can we verify the second hit has more knockback? Because that's the hit most likely to land I find.

 

[St. Viers]

I can't test (don't own a wii >_<), but I'm positive that it does.

 

[Seagull Joe]

the way i use it is over an edge or infinite jump into side b ground cancel and dtilt. they never see it coming if i dont do it always and its a good finisher

 

[MrEh]

Use it to **** spot dodges.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Use it to **** spot dodges.

This

Also, gonna start up on utilt for now, last tilt but the second best.

Bowser's utilt does about 12-13% (percent may vary from what I've seen). It's still what it was in Melee; utter and total **** to any above or behind Bowser.

Hell yes.

When utilt is used on stages with platform(s), i.e. Battlefield, Norfair, Yoshi's Story, Frigate Orpheon, etc. it will ****. It's knockback is very good, a killing move at around... 90-100 on the middleweight characters (though I may be wrong).

The main hitbox is obviously above Bowser, but it also hits behind him as well. Thus, when attempting to hit grounded targets, aim it backwards by tilting up and the opposite direction your facing and the control stick. The utilt will be reversed, hitting them in the air or on the ground.

As said, when used in stages with platforms, it's like pure **** to them. It reaches through the platforms, hitting anyone on them (or if aimed correctly, even if they try to drop down). This is one of the reasons Bowser's best counterpick is Norfair; a lot of platforms to abuse this move.

It should also be noted this move is excellent for juggling at lower percentages on heavyweights or fast fallers (Fox, etc.). This can rack up damage pretty early if pulled off.

After hitting with the utilt, the enemy is launched upwards, setting up for a fair, bair, another utilt (if percents are low enough) or generally whatever the hell you want. Though for aerials, you'll probably need to bait an air dodge out of them first.

Utilt is also useful for owning Samus (or any character that lieks to SHdair). I find myself utilt juggling a lot of Samus's just because they always try to dair. Remember, utilt is your antiaerial move; it may be good to use against grounded enemies, but don't neglect it's short hop punishing abilities either.

 

[Blistering Speed]

In future guys, wait for me to update the OP.

Liquid Gen, you contribute greatly to this thread, but be patient and wait for me to update. Most of these threads are a move a week, I freaking updated the OP yesterday and you've already moved on.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, remember that it doesn't cover in front of you at all, and you'll be fine. It's your standard anti-aerial, and has much larger range than one would think--> quite a simple, yet effective move. it can also juggle heavier chars at low %.

 

[Liquid Gen]

True, but often we take too long to discuss a simple move; Bowser's moves aren't so involved that we should take 3-4 days to discuss one move. They're not exactly all that exciting.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You moved on after a day. I don't see your need to rush. I'll write the summary now, we'll move on.

Move #4 is U Tilt!

Discuss...

 

[Liquid Gen]

K.

But I recommend a faster update time, since as I said Bowser isn't all too complex (his moveset anyway). That's all I ask.

But yeh, commence.

 

[Nitros14]

The uptilt is great, it has a really deceiving range and priority. The lag afterwards is a bit annoying but it comes out really fast at least.

It's a wicked kill move but I also like the ground hitbox behind Bowser, you can often get short characters with it. Sometimes because of its speed you can air dodge to the ground past them right into an uptilt and KO them with the rear hitbox. It has a really strong knockback

Obviously it's great as anti air but you do have to careful of the ending lag. It's not really as spammable as forward tilt.

 

[Liquid Gen]

The lag on utilt is okay; if you time it right (which you should anyway), the knockback will take them too far to punish (if the percent is high enough).

But you shouldn't just throw this out anywhere, I agree it is too laggy for that.

 

[LinIsKorean]

A great KO move for Bowser.

It looks like Liquid covered most of it though. XD But obviously, this isn't a move you should be spamming. It's best used (imo) when you are directly under a falling opponent / platform. It has great vertical knockback, and you can mindgame your opponents by jumping up, making it look like you are about to U-air, but do nothing and fast-fall then U-Tilt for a KO/damage. Good stuff.

I really wouldn't use this at all for grounded opponents, F-tilt is almost always a better option.

 

[Flayl]

I love doing Rising FAir->Utilt.

 

[MrEh]

Use it to clash with anyone who uses telegraphed aerials on you. (Snake's Nair is the prime example of this)

Or just use it when you're opponents hanging on the ledge. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to pressure them into jumping into a Utilt.


The Utilt has a BS hitbox, lots of priority, and it comes out quick. Obviously, it's total ****.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I like U-tilt. I don't just throw it out though. You really need to find the correct time and place to use this. As been said, below a platform this is amazingly cool. Yes, the hitbox is total BS.

I think this move has been kind of summed up already.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lawl I wrote that U Tilt summary the day before my A Level Exam.
Can someone please mention in their post on N Air (as a side note, I dont want to go back to other moves) the kill percent for U Tilt on Mario on FD with DI?

Move #5 is N Air.

Discuss...

 

[Jim Morrison]

I rarely use this. I haven't found a place to applicate it yet. Only when the opponent is inside of me, because it's a quick hitbox all around/inside bowser. It's like Fortress without going up, invincibility, and dropping down helplessly. It hasn't got amazing knockback either, there are always better options, with a few exceptions.

 

[Nitros14]

It's not used too often, but it has higher priority than his other airs, I'm pretty sure on this. Yeah mostly not applicable but when they're really close or you just want to switch things up it's not a horribly bad choice and the hitbox lasts a decently long time. Decent damage though not a kill move. I think the saving grace it its high priority.

 

[Bowser King]

I rarely use nair. It comes in handy against snake's >b as it goes through it (though you could airdodge but I'm not sure if that works as I rarely fight snakes). I also use it when I'm ontop of a certain characters and don't want to make the mistake of using dair and get punished incase of them destroying me with the landing. The priority is decent and it comes in handy, as Gf2tw said, when your in the character.

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

Gahhh... I hate nair. So much.

However, for the sake of the thread and my own continuity, I'll write a little.

First of all; nair is like a semi-sex kick for Bowser. At initial startup, it does about ~13%, and towards the end of the animation, it does ~9% I believe (non-negated, of course).

As said, the hitbox does last a good while. though not quite as long as a standard sex kick. However, this attack is useful for punishing airdodge is your inside of your enemy, it works really good for that.

The knockback on nair is okay, at best. If you abuse the **** out of fair, then nair will probably take em farther than fair will. I'd be will to say the knockback (when both are non-negated), nair is about half or two thirds as much as fair.

Nair is also quite useful in a koopahop; it protects you with it's giant hitbox as you jump, knocking anyone attempting to intercept you out of the way. Koopahopping nairs across the stage is quite lulzy, and sometimes effective.

One practical use for nair I've found, however, is quite unexpected by most people.

When edgeguarding, try doing nair and fastfalling it onto the enemy; it'll usually hit so long as you don't overuse it, but be sure to not kill yourself. That would be bad.

Usually offstage, nair will kill (or at least, put them beyond the point of no return). This makes nair more of an offstage move, than part of your ground aerial game. So use it as such, it's landing lag is very punishable, though still not as bad as dair's.

On stages with platforms, a rising fullhop nair is a decent choice to mix it up, it'll knock them away, and if they shield, DI away from them and try to land on solid ground again.Either way, you're generally safe (depending on how close you actually were to the end of the platform).



Ugh, there's my synopsis on nair. It's an okay move, but you almost always have better choices.

Still, that's what I used to think about DAir, but hey, I use that a lot now.

ALSO: About the utilt, the KO percent for what you requested is around 110 or so, though it could range to about 120.

 

[Hixxy]

Does Nair go through Olimar's Usmash?

 

[MrEh]

If you have to think about using the Nair, you're doing it wrong. The Nair has a use, and ONE GOOD USE ONLY.

If you're in the air with your opponent, and your opponent air dodges into you (happens a lot actually, since Bowser is so big), use the Nair! It's your fastest aerial, and it will hit them before they can do anything. This is the only thing I use it for, and it's become a reflex for me to use it in that situation.

Other then that, don't bother.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Does Nair go through Olimar's Usmash?

As far as Im aware, the only aerial which can go through Olimar's U Smash is DDD's spaced D Air.

 

[Hixxy]

As far as Im aware, the only aerial which can go through Olimar's U Smash is DDD's spaced D Air.

I've had multiple attacks go through Olimar's Usmash in tournament matches, including Sheik's Dair and DDD's fast falled Bair.

 

[Crzy]

If you have to think about using the Nair, you're doing it wrong. The Nair has a use, and ONE GOOD USE ONLY.

If you're in the air with your opponent, and your opponent air dodges into you (happens a lot actually, since Bowser is so big), use the Nair! It's your fastest aerial, and it will hit them before they can do anything. This is the only thing I use it for, and it's become a reflex for me to use it in that situation.

Other then that, don't bother.

This is basically all I use Nair for. A lot of the time I can chain a Fair to Jump Nair off stage if they jump.

 

[Hixxy]

Bowser's Fair, Bair (from an angle since the hit box doesn't cover directly below him well; it's possible that it does work, but I didn't work on Bair long), Nair, and Dair make a clank effect with the Pikmin (including purple) in Olimar's Usmash and continue on. Olimar's Utilt, however, out ranged all aerials from directly below and traded hits with Fair and Bair when coming from an angle. Bowser's non-up aerials possess sex kick properties, although I'm not sure whether this is a factor or not. I don't know if Uair has sex kick properties, but I believe that it doesn't. This tested this in training mode, but I doubt that training mode makes any difference from regular play for this particular testing. I'll redo it in normal play if someone wants me to.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Ahh, Nair was one of my favorite attacks in Melee (next to fair and bair). It's a shame it's pretty bad now.

OH well, as it stands Nair is very situational in battle application. I'm gonna get started on writing about each move beforehand so I can just copy-paste, lol.

EDIT: Doing a pivot canceled utilt is very nice, since the pivot reverses you, it perfectly complements the utilt's hitbox. Might want to add that into the utilt summary.

 

[MrEh]

Also, the Nair looks a lot like Bowser's second jump.

MINDGAMES? LOLOLOLOL!

 

[LinIsKorean]

Looks like almost everything has been said already, so as usual I'll just add a little tidbit.

N-air comes out fairly quickly and has a fairly long hitbox duration. Thus, its best use is when you are sort of inside your opponent, and even then, you could use one of the other rails. However, both Bair and Dair have terrible landing lag, so you can use Nair as a more cautious attack.

 

[hippiedude92]

the only use i find from Nair is it outprioritiziing out snake's upsmash Nair FF buffer to a Dsmash hits way too good on snake, other then that, i can't really find any uses. this is why he has a blind spot below him -.-

 

[Blistering Speed]

Move #6 is F Air. This move is really good.

Discuss...

 

[Hobobloke]

Heh finally I can say something before you all say everything.

Fair what can i say, you'll be using it for the majority of the time you're in the air. Good power and range and has no lag if you autocancel it. Great edgeguard and a good option for approaches is a SH fair and it can even lead into another fair. SH fair -> fsmash is a kickass move to punish if they react wrong, sideb -> fair is also a good option which usually works. All in all it just *****.

 

[St. Viers]

what's the timing on the autocancel?

 

[LinIsKorean]

Ah, love the Fair. Great move for Bowser. It comes out fast, and has decent range as well. Bowser makes a sort of swiping motion with his claw starting from his head to almost the bottom of his stomach, which gives this move sort of a disjointed hitbox. You can hit a little above Bowser's head due to this startup. Fair is the best move to use out of air grab releases, as it works on a majority of the cast and has great knockback. It also works as a great move to use while Koopahopping, and is fairly easy to do compared to his other aerials, and I would argue its much more useful. Fair can also be used as a great approach by doing it backwards, ie. you run towards the opponent, jump backwards and Fair. A lot of people think that Fair is punishable when you land, and this is where you can give them a surprise Ftilt. Overall, Fair is probably Bowser's staple aerial move, and you definitely want to be using it a lot.

And to autocancel it, just Fair as soon as you shorthop, you'll have zero landing lag if you do it right.

 

[Liquid Gen]

AHHHH MORE WALLS


Fair is the bread and butter of Bowser's aerial game. Short and simple. It's fast, can be auto cancelled, good knockback/damage, and pretty good range.

This attack is really helpful for just about anything, from a jab cancel, a jump break grab release, or even just to space yourself. This move really is an all around attack.

Like Bair, Nair, and Uair, you can perform this move in a koopahop whilst have enough frames to enact another Klaw to keep going, a good tactic for shiel pressure.

The fair does around... 10-13 % (not exactly sure) and decays quickly, since you'll be using it a lot. The decay is minor though; you wont really care about it.

The fair can be autocancelled; meaning, it can be done without any landing lag by interrupting specific frames in the animation (iirc). If the fair is done immediately out of a short hop, you will incur no landing lag at all from move. This is what makes Bowser's fair very versatile for am yriad of situations. To perform the autocancel, the easiest way is to slide your thumb from X to a while moving forward.

This makes another reason why platform stages are good for Bowser. SHFair through the platforms is good to mix it up a bit, and very productive.

A shfair will generally hit most of the cast; which is good. However, on taller characters, you can change it up by doing something a little different.

By "taller" characters, I mean Captain Falcon, Ganon, another Bowser etc. These characters can be hit by a rising fair, at the bottom hitbox. When they are hit, generally you can land another one whilst falling from the first. This is good for damage, and mindgaemz if you have been autocancelling your fairs all day.

As said before, fair is a good spacing tool, like ftilt. You can use it while retreating to deter and approach, or put distance between you both. No one wants to get hit by fair.

A nice little "string" that's fun to do goes like this.

SHFair > Jab cancel > Side B.

Since Fairs knockback is so low and low percentages, when used in a shorthop, the forward momentum will carry you with their knockback, allowing you to follow up the attack with another; maybe a Grab Release? Ftilt? Your choice.