Borderlands 2 / General Borderlands Discussion -- Vault Hunters Wanted! --

[Wave⁂]

Sir Hammerlock introduces the Mechromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av_D14XEUqM

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The Bee is stupid overpowered.

 

[Pluvia]

Meh I'm on the side that thinks it shouldn't be nerfed unless the drop rate is dramatically increased, and also because this game is more or less a single player/local co-op game. If they nerf it and leave the drop rate the same/similar you'll just see people uninstalling the patch to farm as usual.

The head and legendary drop rate shouldn't be that low, so it makes sense that people use The Bee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Meh I'm on the side that thinks it shouldn't be nerfed unless the drop rate is dramatically increased, and also because this game is more or less a single player/local co-op game. If they nerf it and leave the drop rate the same/similar you'll just see people uninstalling the patch to farm as usual.

The head and legendary drop rate shouldn't be that low, so it makes sense that people use The Bee.

I dunno about that. I agree that the best loot should indeed put you ahead of the difficulty curve, but The Bee just feels like too much. It turns any boss into an absolute joke.

 

[Pluvia]

Still, other people shouldn't dictate how others play their single player games. If you don't like The Bee that's fine, but it doesn't mean you should be able to demand it gets nerfed in other peoples like a minority of people are doing. Just don't use it, don't demand others shouldn't be able to.

If the drop rates were at least reasonable then The Bee would be outclassed in general play anyway, it's nigh useless in mob fights.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Wish they would implement a 4 v 4 arena or other larger pvp than just dueling someone

 

[Master Xanthan]

I dunno about that. I agree that the best loot should indeed put you ahead of the difficulty curve, but The Bee just feels like too much. It turns any boss into an absolute joke.

Then don't use the Bee. All it takes is one nerf to start a whole chain of nerfing every good gun (just look at Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer).

Edit: @ravenxt, why would you need a trainer for borderlands 2?

 

[Wave⁂]

Edit: @ravenxt, why would you need a trainer for borderlands 2?

To add your computer to a botnet.

If you don't like The Bee that's fine, but it doesn't mean you should be able to demand it gets nerfed in other peoples like a minority of people are doing. Just don't use it, don't demand others shouldn't be able to.

Here are two scenarios:

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage."
"Wow! Let's throw it in the shield grinder over at the Overlook!"

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage!"
"Holy ****! Who wants it?!"
Later...
"Man **** this game, the guy with the fancy shield kills everything in one hit while I'm stuck using a ****ty consumes 2 ammo pistol."

Which is more likely?

 

[Pluvia]

To add your computer to a botnet.



Here are two scenarios:

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage."
"Wow! Let's throw it in the shield grinder over at the Overlook!"

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage!"
"Holy ****! Who wants it?!"
Later...
"Man **** this game, the guy with the fancy shield kills everything in one hit while I'm stuck using a ****ty consumes 2 ammo pistol."

Which is more likely?

"Let's kick him."

Which is a whole lot better than:

"Lets make sure it's nerfed in mine, his, and everyone elses games because I don't know how to kick, and don't want to use it. If I don't like something then no one should be able to use it in their single player games."

 

[Wave⁂]

Kicking your friend is a really good way to make someone not your friend

 

[Master Xanthan]

To add your computer to a botnet.



Here are two scenarios:

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage."
"Wow! Let's throw it in the shield grinder over at the Overlook!"

"Oh hey guys, look, I found this awesome shield!"
"Really? What's it do?"
"...does two million amp damage!"
"Holy ****! Who wants it?!"
Later...
"Man **** this game, the guy with the fancy shield kills everything in one hit while I'm stuck using a ****ty consumes 2 ammo pistol."

Which is more likely?

Oh, good thing I never clicked the link.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Still, other people shouldn't dictate how others play their single player games. If you don't like The Bee that's fine, but it doesn't mean you should be able to demand it gets nerfed in other peoples like a minority of people are doing. Just don't use it, don't demand others shouldn't be able to.

If the drop rates were at least reasonable then The Bee would be outclassed in general play anyway, it's nigh useless in mob fights.

Now hang on one second. I am very much allowed to campaign for it to be nerfed. No, I cannot tell you how to play the game. I'm not doing that. I'm not telling you that you cannot use The Bee. I'm just sharing my opinion, but you have no right telling me I have no right to publicly request that Gearbox nerf it. Last I checked, it's Gearbox's game, and Gearbox were to listen, you then have the right to campaign to have it reversed. You cannot just silence my opinion though. -_-

Also, Gearbox CEO doesn't really agree with you.

Bee shield is so getting nerfed.

https://twitter.com/DuvalMagic/status/254666987479904256

 

[Master Xanthan]

Now hang on one second. I am very much allowed to campaign for it to be nerfed. No, I cannot tell you how to play the game. I'm not doing that. I'm not telling you that you cannot use The Bee. I'm just sharing my opinion, but you have no right telling me I have no right to publicly request that Gearbox nerf it. Last I checked, it's Gearbox's game, and Gearbox were to listen, you then have the right to campaign to have it reversed. You cannot just silence my opinion though. -_-

But if you get Gearbox to nerf it, then in a way it is like you are telling everyone how to play the game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But if you get Gearbox to nerf it, then in a way it is like you are telling everyone how to play the game.

Oh cry me a river. Welcome to video games. If you want to disable update patches, be my guest. If you want to take control, just start cheating. Use game editors/trainers/hacks. Don't let me stop you. What you're telling me is that you do honor Gearbox's opinion, but people like me are not allowed to influence it. Your opinion supersedes mine.

 

[Pluvia]

Now hang on one second. I am very much allowed to campaign for it to be nerfed. No, I cannot tell you how to play the game. I'm not doing that. I'm not telling you that you cannot use The Bee. I'm just sharing my opinion, but you have no right telling me I have no right to publicly request that Gearbox nerf it. Last I checked, it's Gearbox's game, and Gearbox were to listen, you then have the right to campaign to have it reversed. You cannot just silence my opinion though. -_-

Also, Gearbox CEO doesn't really agree with you.



https://twitter.com/DuvalMagic/status/254666987479904256

You're asking for something to be nerfed in my game because you don't like it. Gearbox are listening to a minority of people, but why? If you don't like the Bee then why do you want it to be nerfed in my game when you can just not use it?

That's like me saying I think Zero is broken, therefore Zero should be nerfed in everyones game because I don't like him.

And I know he doesn't agree with me, I posted that 6 days ago:

Anyway they're balancing The Bee. I'd give you the link but it's like an hour and a half into a twitch video. Basically they're changing it up because of the community, and this has caused fierce debate among everyone on whether or not it should be nerfed.

 

[Wave⁂]

Pluvia, that's like saying Metaknight shouldn't be nerfed. Smash is just a stupid silly party game, what does it matter that one character is the best?

 

[Pluvia]

Pluvia, that's like saying Metaknight shouldn't be nerfed. Smash is just a stupid silly party game, what does it matter that one character is the best?

A better analogy would be asking for him to be nerfed in single player.

Borderlands 2 is a primarily single player game/game with friends, no one plays it online with randoms (especially now that the Gibbed Editor has been released for it) as it's just going to be full of griefers or mods.

Saying that someone, who is never going to play with you and is just going to play with friends/offline, should have something in their game nerfed just because you don't like it is incredibly selfish and just plain bizzare.

If you don't like it, why should other people be punished? It's not a MMO, or even a big multiplayer game, so why is it alright to demand that something you don't like is changed for everyone? My Zero analogy works well here, if I think he's broken does that mean he should be nerfed in your game?

 

[Wave⁂]

Borderlands 2 prides itself for having a virtually infinite number of weapons and ****. Hundreds of different guns are viable, even at the highest level cap. Much of this is because many guns aren't straight up comparable. Do I take a this machine gun that spews out bullets for X DPS? Or do I take this gun that does 1.5X DPS, but shoots slower bullets? Or do I take this gun that starts out at 0.5X DPS, but then increases to 2X? Borderlands 2 is a competitive game between equipment drops, each one vying for the player's attention.

Except The Bee is god tier, while every other shield is high tier or lower. What competition is there? Firehawk? Love Thumper? Order? Impaler? None of these drop bosses anywhere as fast as The Bee. In this way, The Bee's mere existence goes against Borderlands 2's design philosophy. It's not about punishing players. It's making the game better.

 

[Pluvia]

Borderlands 2 prides itself for having a virtually infinite number of weapons and ****. Hundreds of different guns are viable, even at the highest level cap. Much of this is because many guns aren't straight up comparable. Do I take a this machine gun that spews out bullets for X DPS? Or do I take this gun that does 1.5X DPS, but shoots slower bullets? Or do I take this gun that starts out at 0.5X DPS, but then increases to 2X? Borderlands 2 is a competitive game between equipment drops, each one vying for the player's attention.

Except The Bee is god tier, while every other shield is high tier or lower. What competition is there? Firehawk? Love Thumper? Order? Impaler? None of these drop bosses anywhere as fast as The Bee. In this way, The Bee's mere existence goes against Borderlands 2's design philosophy. It's not about punishing players. It's making the game better.

The only reason why The Bee see's much light is because of the atrocious drop rates. The Sham is better for mob fights, as is the Impaler, the Firehawk is better for the Mechromancer etc. You can breeze through boss fights with the Bee but not mob fights, in fact it's one of the worst choices for mob fights and is even outclassed by most non-legendaries.

Nerfing the Bee will make is so stuff like this:

Spoiler

AKA heads you have to get by beating the opponent with over double the health of Terramorphous, and the easiest way to get him to appear is to have defeated Terramorphous, hoping that he dropped a legendary relic (killed him about a dozen times and never seen this), and by playing on TVHM and having 4 Super Badass Varkids and 2 Ultimate Varkids fighting you and hoping one of the Ultimates decides to evolve into him, and then hoping that said enemy drops one of those heads with the ridiculous drop rate this game has.

Of course nerfing the Bee will make it so these sort of things, and many other legendaries, will pretty much never see the light of day in most peoples games, but it's alright because that'll make the game "better". As long as other people are having less fun or getting less stuff because of something in their game you didn't like, everyones game will somehow be better.

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't even follow your train of thought. Are you complaining about the drop rate now? Because virtually everyone who wants The Bee nerfed agrees that the drop rate should be increased.

Also, what's wrong with people not having every single head and legendary ever, exactly? If you want all that ****, just hack the game already.

And you never addressed my main point, that The Bee clashes with what Gearbox envisioned the game to be.

Honestly though, the main reason I want The Bee nerfed is because it's so easy to farm bosses, so Gearbox will make future DLC bosses have insanely low legendary drop rates to compensate for people farming them 100 times an hour.

 

[Pluvia]

I don't even follow your train of thought. Are you complaining about the drop rate now? Because virtually everyone who wants The Bee nerfed agrees that the drop rate should be increased.

Now?:

Meh I'm on the side that thinks it shouldn't be nerfed unless the drop rate is dramatically increased, and also because this game is more or less a single player/local co-op game. If they nerf it and leave the drop rate the same/similar you'll just see people uninstalling the patch to farm as usual.

The head and legendary drop rate shouldn't be that low, so it makes sense that people use The Bee.

Still on the same train of thought.

Also, what's wrong with people not having every single head and legendary ever, exactly? If you want all that ****, just hack the game already.

And you never addressed my main point, that The Bee clashes with what Gearbox envisioned the game to be.

In other words, nerf it for other people because they can just hack stuff they want into the game if they really want it? Seriously?

And we can't really say what Gearbox envisioned, seeing as though they playtested the game and added the Bee in, and stated that they're nerfing it because of (a small) amount of the community when asked.

 

[Wave⁂]

In other words, nerf it for other people because they can just hack stuff they want into the game if they really want it? Seriously?

What is wrong with this, exactly? If you want every gun in the game, hack for it. If you can get every gun in the game without external means, that means one of the BIGGEST reasons you play Borderlands is gone. Loot-driven games should always leave the player with more loot to get.

And we can't really say what Gearbox envisioned, seeing as though they playtested the game and added the Bee in, and stated that they're nerfing it because of (a small) amount of the community when asked.

It's pretty damn easy to guess what Gearbox envisioned, considering almost every piece of marketing for Borderlands 1 focused on the number of guns in the game. And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time a game has been playtested without the developers thinking of everything in the game. Gamers are much better at this kind of stuff, and now that Gearbox knows that The Bee can kill Terra so easily, all future DLC will be balanced around it.

 

[Pluvia]

What is wrong with this, exactly? If you want every gun in the game, hack for it. If you can get every gun in the game without external means, that means one of the BIGGEST reasons you play Borderlands is gone. Loot-driven games should always leave the player with more loot to get.

Wait, just to clarify, are you honestly saying that people who want hard to get items in the game should hack it rather than using a legit item?

It's pretty damn easy to guess what Gearbox envisioned, considering almost every piece of marketing for Borderlands 1 focused on the number of guns in the game. And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time a game has been playtested without the developers thinking of everything in the game. Gamers are much better at this kind of stuff, and now that Gearbox knows that The Bee can kill Terra so easily, all future DLC will be balanced around it.

Why would future DLC be balanced around the Bee? Don't you realise how absurd your argument for why the Bee should be nerfed in other peoples games is?

Because if they want legit items, they should just hack them? Because future DLC will for some reason be balanced around an item I don't want, even though I just completely made this up

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You're asking for something to be nerfed in my game because you don't like it. Gearbox are listening to a minority of people, but why? If you don't like the Bee then why do you want it to be nerfed in my game when you can just not use it?

That's like me saying I think Zero is broken, therefore Zero should be nerfed in everyones game because I don't like him.

And I know he doesn't agree with me, I posted that 6 days ago:

You think I want The Bee nerfed because it hurt my feelings? Of course I don't like it, but I have reasons for not liking it. I never read a single thing online about The Bee until I used it myself. I came to my own conclusion. You really think a "minority" of players see The Bee as overpowered? Google a little bit longer. Forums and Twitter are streaming with comments about how unbalanced The Bee is.

You are oversimplifying this discussion. If you honestly thought Zero was broken, you could go complain about it. I wouldn't stop you. Gearbox isn't nerfing The Bee just because "some people are mad". It is obvious how much impact it has on the overall Borderlands ecosystem. Any new bosses are dead before they arrive.

And your arguments that the low drop rates justify The Bee are just stupid.

 

[Master Xanthan]

Oh cry me a river. Welcome to video games. If you want to disable update patches, be my guest. If you want to take control, just start cheating. Use game editors/trainers/hacks. Don't let me stop you. What you're telling me is that you do honor Gearbox's opinion, but people like me are not allowed to influence it. Your opinion supersedes mine.

No, what I'm saying is that I don't want Gearbox to pull a Bioware and start nerfing every half decent gun into the ground.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

No, what I'm saying is that I don't want Gearbox to pull a Bioware and start nerfing every half decent gun into the ground.

It's not going to happen. Borderlands 1 did not have that many nerfs. (In fact, I can't really remember if/when they ever nerfed anything I had.) There are lots of weapons I would consider 'overpowered', but only The Bee crosses that line of outright breaking the whole game.

 

[Pluvia]

You think I want The Bee nerfed because it hurt my feelings? Of course I don't like it, but I have reasons for not liking it. I never read a single thing online about The Bee until I used it myself. I came to my own conclusion. You really think a "minority" of players see The Bee as overpowered? Google a little bit longer. Forums and Twitter are streaming with comments about how unbalanced The Bee is.

You are oversimplifying this discussion. If you honestly thought Zero was broken, you could go complain about it. I wouldn't stop you. Gearbox isn't nerfing The Bee just because "some people are mad". It is obvious how much impact it has on the overall Borderlands ecosystem. Any new bosses are dead before they arrive.

And your arguments that the low drop rates justify The Bee are just stupid.

You never once addressed the main point:

Why should other people be punished for something you don't like? In their game?

Borderlands ecosystem? Everything can be duped, so the ecosystem is already insanely messed up without the Bee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You never once addressed the main point:

Why should other people be punished for something you don't like? In their game?

Why should I be punished for something you don't like? Gearbox is clearly gonna change it. I'm not the one who has to adapt here.

Also, if you see losing the ability to down huge bosses in 10 seconds as a "punishment", I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Borderlands ecosystem? Everything can be duped, so the ecosystem is already insanely messed up without the Bee.

ecosystem != economy

I'm referring to the overall nature of what kind of loot the player is allowed to have. I'm not referring to loot excess. Borderlands has a rhyme and reason for the things that go on. The Bee clearly flies in the face of those philosophies.

 

[Pluvia]

Why should I be punished for something you don't like? Gearbox is clearly gonna change it. I'm not the one who has to adapt here.

Despite the fact you even emphasised your post and seemingly repeated what I said, you never actually repeated what I said, nor answered the question, you just reversed what I said and still never even answered the question you made up.

Also, if you see losing the ability to down huge bosses in 10 seconds as a "punishment", I have no sympathy whatsoever.

No one cares if you have sympathy, that's not what I'm asking you.

ecosystem != economy

I'm referring to the overall nature of what kind of loot the player is allowed to have. I'm not referring to loot excess. Borderlands has a rhyme and reason for the things that go on. The Bee clearly flies in the face of those philosophies.

Such as? Being the best shield? No, as pointed out earlier, it's terrible for mobs.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Wave brings up a good point. Gearbox is now aware of how quickly people can farm bosses with The Bee, which means if they keep it the way it is, it's going to lower drop rates even further for future bosses in the upcoming DLCs. All that will do is put people who refuse to use The Bee at even more of a disadvantage.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Maybe you missed the point of my post. The point is that you see this as some kind of punishment. It's not. You're asking me why others should be punished for something I don't like. My response is that they're not being punished, so it's a terrible question in the first place. And as far as "playing the game you want to", you still can. Again, start hacking/cheating to make the game how you want it. Make all your dreams come true. Why do you feel so imposed upon by my desire to have The Bee nerfed? I'm not suggesting it should be removed from the game. I just think it should either do less amp damage or have a tiny shield drain. You see that as OMGSTOPRUININGMYGAME.

 

[Pluvia]

Maybe you missed the point of my post. The point is that you see this as some kind of punishment. It's not. You're asking me why others should be punished for something I don't like. My response is that they're not being punished, so it's a terrible question in the first place. And as far as "playing the game you want to", you still can. Again, start hacking/cheating to make the game how you want it. Make all your dreams come true. Why do you feel so imposed upon by my desire to have The Bee nerfed? I'm not suggesting it should be removed from the game. I just think it should either do less amp damage or have a tiny shield drain. You see that as OMGSTOPRUININGMYGAME.

Because you are wanting something to be nerfed, in other peoples games, just because you don't like it, and because you think people that do should just hack.

That's insane.

 

[The Real Gamer]

But Pluvia what's wrong for wanting something to be nerfed when there are legit reasons for wanting said nerf?

You could keep arguing that Borderlands is primarily a single-player experience but that simply isn't true for many players.

 

[Atlus8]

I usually am against nerfing some things that are good, but The Bee is just too damn good! You can't just tell me that I shouldn't you use it because it makes things too easy or it ruins my game experience! It is a legit item that is in the game and I sure as hell am going to use it! I can understand that it isn't fair to change the game to people who think The Bee should remain untouched, but you can't say that The Bee is not too powerful!

 

[Wave⁂]

Pluvia is acting so irrationally about this, I'm suspecting he's just trolling us.

 

[Pluvia]

Not really, I just find it so bizzare that it's deemed perfectly acceptable to dictate what is in other peoples games just because you don't like something in yours, and because they "can just hack" if they want items in their single player game.

Its basically "I don't want this thing to be in anyones game, but those that don't want it to be nerfed in their game, because it makes achieving other items somewhat bearable, can just hack those items instead."

It such backwards logic that I'm sure I must be getting trolled.

 

[Lythium]

Pluvia, just accept that the Bee is OP. I don't know if you've ever played any other online games before, but they tend to patch things out that are extraordinarily unbalanced.

If you can't accept why it's overpowered, I'll give you an example. You probably know that the Bee is an amp shield with no shield drain and high amp damage. Then say, you play with a shotgun, and it apply it to every projectile fired from a shotgun. Then say, you apply it to a gun called Conference Call. You can kill bosses in two seconds, basically.

Alternatively, even without the Bee applying to every pellet, it's still overpowered as ****. In a game where sniper rifles struggle to surpass 30k damage, a shield that boosts the damage of every shot fired, even from SMGs to ARs, to 50k is extremely broken. This gives a typical level 50 SMG a 1000% damage boost, and even single projectile sniper rifles get a 150 to 200% damage boost. That's ludicrous.

 

[Pluvia]

Which is fine for bosses but terrible pretty much everywhere else.

Also, single player game, the amount of broken things in Borderlands 1 that never got nerfed and then all of a sudden a few people complain about the Bee and Gearbox decide to nerf it, and even mention they're nerfing it because of the community.

This has just opened the floodgates to people crying for nerfs on anything now that they know Gearbox will bend over backwards, despite the fact that you can just not use the Bee if you don't like it.

 

[O D I N]

Holy ****, the amount of salt in this thread is astounding.

Let me go grab my popcorn.

I had a low level Bee, and then I stopped using it. The End.

The Bee is Over Powered. The End Mk II.

 

[Lythium]

Haha, ODIN. Well, I tried.

I even used evidence. With numbers!