Bidoof Academy - Pokémon Trainer Q+A Thread

[Shaya]

I can answer that question:

Rocksmash is gay.

Marth's fair does "beat it",

but nost often you'll cause that awesome early explosion and then get hit for 30%+.
yay.

 

[Magik0722]

no marth can complain about pokemon trainer in any situation ever

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

EAD Shaya.

 

[Shaya]

no marth can complain about pokemon trainer in any situation ever

Above 100%
Used dolphin slash to get to the ledge.
Squirtle's there.

I'll complain all I god **** want.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Hete to bump this thread, but I've gotta question. What moves does Ivy have to outspace Ike? I know squirtle is a lost cause here, and Charizard has flamethrower and Ftilt (And maybe Dtilt? I sadly never use that move) But I feel like I've tried everything with Ivy with no luck. Even Bair, though I could be spacing that one wrong. Not terribly good at it yet...

Side note about the Marth discussion, Rock Smash has better range than his shield breaker, which I think is his longest reaching move. It's just the portion where ther rocks fly out that hits, but I pulled it off in a friendly today, so yeah... Make of that what you will.

Again, sorry for the bump. I'm new, and this seemed like the best place to ask. XD

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Hete to bump this thread, but I've gotta question. What moves does Ivy have to outspace Ike? I know squirtle is a lost cause here, and Charizard has flamethrower and Ftilt (And maybe Dtilt? I sadly never use that move) But I feel like I've tried everything with Ivy with no luck. Even Bair, though I could be spacing that one wrong. Not terribly good at it yet...

Side note about the Marth discussion, Rock Smash has better range than his shield breaker, which I think is his longest reaching move. It's just the portion where ther rocks fly out that hits, but I pulled it off in a friendly today, so yeah... Make of that what you will.

Again, sorry for the bump. I'm new, and this seemed like the best place to ask. XD

RAZORLEAF, Bair is really good here. Work in some Ftilts and Dtilt (With Ivy)

You dont use Charizards Dtilt? Then you are playing him wrong you should be using this move!

And Squirtle destroys Ike.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

RAZORLEAF, Bair is really good here. Work in some Ftilts and Dtilt (With Ivy)

You dont use Charizards Dtilt? Then you are playing him wrong you should be using this move!

And Squirtle destroys Ike.

Heh, I figured Razorleaf was a given. XD
But yeah, Tilts eh? I havn't had much luck with them, but I guess I'll try em again. I'm really bad about not using my tilts as it is, so maybe this will help me get into the habit.

Don't really see what I need to be doing with squirtle though. Everytime I move in, he throws out a jab before I get in range, or a Ftilt I think it is if I approach by air. Admittedly, once I get in, things go well enough, but getting in seems to be just a matter of luck...

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Heh, I figured Razorleaf was a given. XD
But yeah, Tilts eh? I havn't had much luck with them, but I guess I'll try em again. I'm really bad about not using my tilts as it is, so maybe this will help me get into the habit.

Don't really see what I need to be doing with squirtle though. Everytime I move in, he throws out a jab before I get in range, or a Ftilt I think it is if I approach by air. Admittedly, once I get in, things go well enough, but getting in seems to be just a matter of luck...

Just bait Ike. Fake like you are going in, and then dont, and watch for him to do an attack and then punish him.

Also watergun ***** Ike, use it to force him near the edges of the level and then of the leve, Ike hates being off level.

 

[T-block]

why would you use squirtle when you could use ivy/char though?

I like f-air as ivy as well, just be careful about spacing it and don't commit yourself to anything against ike. Learning to powershield his moves, especially his f-air, will help a lot, and OoS n-air is really good if he gets in too close

 

[Steeler]

you have to outsmart the ike, and that doesn't sound like a really good matchup to me. you have to force him to commit to something, and a really smart ike won't let you get away with it very easily.

ivy fair is like inferior ike fair, honestly. ike's has similar startup with more range and ike has more aerial mobility, so he's able to space it better. ivy bair is the same but a lil faster and almost worthless reward. razor leaf only gets you so far.

ivy fsmash is really **** though, it has invincibility frames so just angle that **** up if you see them try to fair or something.

don't get jabbed.

ike is really a ***** to KO if you don't get the gimp. i think water gun is slightly overrated. if you jump and water gun aether, will the final hitbox where he plummets with the sword in front of him still cancel the water? that's the main problem i have with it. if ike starts aether directly below the edge, i really don't think it has enough push to gimp an ike that just holds toward the stage. and it will cancel out all of the water sometimes.

zard flamethrower is good. rock smash is okay, his jab is pretty gay to it though.

so the important thing is to zone him to the edge and keep him there as long as possible. and he's got a pretty big blindspot below and to the left/right of him so use that to juggle him.

i think a gay ike has a slight advantage over PT. (**** you mr. doom!!!) gettin the KO becomes a hassle sometimes.

 

[Zigsta]

I wouldn't say Squirtle ***** Ike, but he's definitely the best against him. Like Miles said, bait and punish. Just don't underestimate Ike's range, or you'll die really easily as Squirtle. Bored and I have had plenty of Ike vs. PT matches, and we both agree that Squirtle's the best, followed by Charizard, then Ivysaur. As for Water Gun...I like to keep it charged regardless of who I'm fighting. I usually save it for when I'm offstage against Ike since if he hits you while you're offstage, you'll likely die at mid-high percents. Bored also likes to use Eruption to punish, and Water Gun knocks him away from the edge for an easy recovery. Fair offstage? Fsmash on stage? They all get wrecked by Water Gun.

 

[T-block]

I find it hard to believe that Squirtle does better than Charizard. Charizard has better survivability and that sexy range on his moves.

 

[Kith]

If you're smart with squirtle, there's really no reason why you should fall for any of Ike's moves lol. Yeah I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it's really hard for Ike to land a blow on squirtle if you space well and are patient enough

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Yeah, the Ike I usually face is really good about not falling for any of my bait attacks, and spaces his moves really well. With squirtle, I do try to use watergun as a means to force him offstage or trick him into approaching, sometimes I get a jump out of it, but I eat an F-Air whenever I try to zip in there. I definitely keep in mind what steeler said about Ike's blindspot, though, I'm sure I can make use of that.

Admittedly, I usually try to skip squirtle in this matchup altogether, though I might try him again since according to the posts, he may actually be my best bet. I still have my doubts though. Like T-Block said...

I find it hard to believe that Squirtle does better than Charizard. Charizard has better survivability and that sexy range on his moves.

This has been my experience thus far. Tonight, I'll know a little better where it stands though, hopefully. Oh, and does Ivy's FSmash really have invincibility frames? I've never noticed them, or heard any reference to them before now, but I coulda missed it. Heavy/Super Armor I'd think would be more likely... o.O


Ah well, next question. I read something on the Yoshi matchup discussion about Squirtle being able to escpae his chaingrab, up til about 80% or so. What's up with that? Also, any general tips about the matchup would be great. Especially for Zard, he tends to get egg-*****. :/

 

[Steeler]

nah it's invincibility, i'm 95% sure. i go through pit side b's every time and i once went through a short hop mk dair unscathed

idk about the yoshi stuff, i haven't heard about something special about escaping the chaingrab. but if you can, that's cool.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Now that you mention it, I've gone though Pits Side-B with it at well. Guess it's something I need to look into more.

Also, Yoshi has a "guaranteed" F-Air spikes from his chaingrab, but if you break out fast enough, he can't realistically get it until about 60-ish%.

In the squirtle tactical discussion, Reflex said something about breaking out, and I assume if anyone would know, it would be him. I was just wondering what the trick for getting out was, as squirtle usually has a "Gauranteed" F-Air spike on me at about 0-ish %. XD

 

[tankzortz]

whats the best way to apporach someone edgehogging?

 

[T-block]

If you're smart with squirtle, there's really no reason why you should fall for any of Ike's moves lol. Yeah I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it's really hard for Ike to land a blow on squirtle if you space well and are patient enough

That can be said about any of the three then =\ It's harder for Ike to land a blow on Charizard than on Squirtle just because Charizard doesn't have to put himself in harm's way to fight Ike.

The Yoshi thing...I could be wrong, but I think it's that if you break out fast enough (before he gets a chance to chew I think?), you ground break instead of air break, stopping the chain. Since he has to regrab you several times, you should be able to break out almost as soon as he regrabs you when you're at lower percents. Something like that...

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

whats the best way to apporach someone edgehogging?

Edge Hogging, or edge guarding? The only one I've ever had issues with getting edge-hogged is Ivysaur, obviously, in which case I've pulled off a handful of things in order to get the ledge back..

--Razorleaf the edge. Can hit em from far off, but not really that great, in my experience..
--Bair. Use Razorleaf to turn around, then hit em with Bair. Just make sure to Vinewhip the right way. I suicide all the time from whipping wrong. :/
--Fair. Good for close range, and I think the easiest to do.
--Wait. Usually they'll crawl back up, especially when expecting to get stagespiked. Use vinewhip, and take advantage of it's deceptive speed and range.
--Dair. I've only done this once, but it stalls your descent. When I did it, the guy reflexively got back on the stage, and I whipped to safety. Dunno if I'd count on it though...



Also, thanks for that info T-Block. Do you happen to know what's the best input for breaking a grab? SmashDI away from them, or what?

 

[T-block]

In general it's to rotate the analog stick while wiggling the c-stick (returning it to neutral between directions) while mashing buttons. Start escaping before you're grabbed, and you should be out fairly quickly. I don't know if you have to avoid hitting Up/X/Y to get a ground break... Yoshi's grab release is kinda weird.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

My brother mains Yoshi, and he says that's one of about a dozen things unique to him; Yoshi always forces an air release. It's why his CG's are so reliable.. I'll definitely try what you said against him tonight though. Now that I think about it, I think I've actually broken the grab before actually getting into Yoshi's mouth, but I could be wrong.

 

[Zigsta]

If you're smart with squirtle, there's really no reason why you should fall for any of Ike's moves lol. Yeah I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it's really hard for Ike to land a blow on squirtle if you space well and are patient enough

This.

Additionally, Charizard gets handled easily by Ike's jabs since he's such a large target. Squirtle's shellshifting makes it really, really hard for Ike to land hits. That's what makes Squirtle a harder target to hit and what makes him better at baiting and punishing Ike.

In general, the mentality here is a lot like fighting Ganondorf. Both characters can KO Squirtle at very low percents, but if you know the matchup well, you can make it incredibly difficult for them to hit you. Know how laggy their moves are and hit them when they're open.

Even moreso than DK, Ike and Ganondorf are my two most confident MUs.

 

[Toby.]

a) squirtle has to approach because of fatigue.

b) if they have a brain we won't be baiting them into laggy attacks any time soon. What would be the point, when they can just focus on retreating nair, shield grabs and jab?

I think we underestimate the intelligence of our opposition. Thank goodness we have water gun.

 

[Zigsta]

a) squirtle has to approach because of fatigue.

b) if they have a brain we won't be baiting them into laggy attacks any time soon. What would be the point, when they can just focus on retreating nair, shield grabs and jab?

I think we underestimate the intelligence of our opposition. Thank goodness we have water gun.

a) It's not worth it to be completely aggro against Ike just because of fatigue.

b) I wasn't clear here. I mean you should know what attacks have lag and which ones don't. If you see a move with lag, it's an easy cue to punish. All the attacks you mentioned have little to no lag and are moves that are much harder to punish, meaning they should be avoided. As far as the "if they have a brain" part, Ike won't be killing with nairs and shield grabs, and Squirtle does the best of the three Pokemon at SDIing out of Ike's jabs.

 

[Toby.]

I know its not worth it. My point was that because we need to wait for him to try a laggy attack before we can reliably get in, we are in a bad position from the start. He wont be using laggy attacks until later on...when we're fatigued.

My point about those low lag attacks is that those are the ones ike will be focusing on. For the majority of the match we can't really be aiming to punish his laggy moves, because 90% of his moves will be the ones I mentioned. And retreating bair.

It's even easier for ike because he can just sit there on the defensive whilst we need to somehow get through. There's no reason for him to bother throwing out attacks we can punish, even when we reach kill percentages. Ike doesn't need to hurry when we're fatigued since we lose any ability to pressure him.

I don't really have a strong opinion about this matchup...the current position just seems illogical to me. People need to step it up and stay realistic.

How about this: squirtles ftilt outranges ikes jab.

 

[Zigsta]

I'm probably not explaining my methods very well. You bring up a good point, Toby, but that's never really been a problem for me.

Austin crew just got a capture card, so I'll work on getting some videos against Bored up sometime.

 

[Toby.]

Keep in mind that I don't doubt that you all have good points to make. I'm just trying to force people to question their arguments so that we end up with a more precise breakdown of the matchup. I don't necessarily disagree with your overall opinion

I play the ike matchup every day, so I'll try and upload something.

 

[Zigsta]

Keep in mind that I don't doubt that you all have good points to make. I'm just trying to force people to question their arguments so that we end up with a more precise breakdown of the matchup. I don't necessarily disagree with your overall opinion

I hear ya. I really just have trouble speaking technically when it comes to Brawl. XD Working on it!

I appreciate you being devil's advocate.

 

[theeboredone]

Personally, as an Ike main going against Squirtle, I really do sit back and space with N-air and F-airs. I have yet to see Squirtle get through my defenses effectively. Also, when I am approaching, I do tend to approach with a carefully spaced N-air. N-air has hardly any lag when landing with it, and Ike can go into his jab combo right away.

On another note, I enjoy using Eruption to own Squirtle's recovery.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

If Ike is camping us he isnt touching us.

Period.


And if he is doing that we can charge and use watergun.

come get ***** at shoddy Toby

talk to me on about melee on aim tobyl

 

[tankzortz]

Whats a good way to appraoch a snake if hes campy, or hes aggresive?

 

[Zigsta]

Whats a good way to appraoch a snake if hes campy, or hes aggresive?

Check the Choose your starter thread. Pretty sure people have laid out ways to approach Snake with PT.

 

[Dre89]

Hey guys I just have some questions about flamethrower options.

If you happen to dair-spike onstage (I've seen Reflex bait it so it's not impossible) can you follow up with flamethrower while, even if it has to be b-reversed?

If you do happen to lock a good FL on someone (I know it's rare but it happens) what are the best/safest options out of it, I've seen Toby dtilt out of it, is there any other cool things to do, or should you just retreat?

Also just wondering, does anyone else like to RAR, so they expect a bair and shield , then b reverse falemthrower to pressure their shield? Of course it's only good when they're near the edge or on a platform so they can't backroll and would get predictable so I know it's onyl a once-a-set thing.

 

[Steeler]

out of flamethrower i like to end it while they are in the middle of it and shield their attack. and then grab them.

 

[T-block]

Speaking of Flamethrower, a2z is claiming that if we try to space Ganondorf with Flamethrower, he can just run into the Flamethrower, SDI towards you and u-air while only taking 16%. Is this true? I've never had anyone SDI that well against me. Considering PX's Wario couldn't even do it on Magik's zard I'm thinking it's not that easy.

 

[Zigsta]

PX does it all the time against me. Flamethrower's not that effective if you're up against someone who knows how to SDI. And the time where PX's Wario took all that damage: he was completely out of it at the time. That was the HOBO where it ran incredibly late, and PX even forfeited his spot in singles in the first round. That's a pretty horrible example.

EDIT--I don't remember exactly how much Ganon will take by SDIing into Flamethrower, but PX is so good at SDIing to upair that it's not worth using Flamethower for that long. I usually use it in short bursts to interrupt one of his attacks or throw off his timing and then go in for a grab/RS/other attack.

 

[PhantomX]

Speaking of Flamethrower, a2z is claiming that if we try to space Ganondorf with Flamethrower, he can just run into the Flamethrower, SDI towards you and u-air while only taking 16%. Is this true? I've never had anyone SDI that well against me. Considering PX's Wario couldn't even do it on Magik's zard I'm thinking it's not that easy.

Yeah, that's not the best example. For one, I didn't even want to play any singles (I forfeited out of the singles tournament before it even started), but I consented to play Magik with my Ganon because I'd promised him I'd play and he wanted videos. Then he kept telling me to go Wario, and I agreed to play a best of 3 with him despite not really wanting to.

Believe me, as someone who can SDI Pit's upsmash down to the ground and who makes a habit of SDIing jabs so that he can't be grabbed after them, flamethrower is incredibly easy to SDI, even as Ganon. As Zigsta said, what's useful if that first burst of fire that has good stun and interrupts, b/c it will mess w/ Ganon's spacing and potentially his autocanceling, giving you a chance to followup.

 

[T-block]

Arite I'll concede and pray no one in my region learns you can SDI it so easily xP

 

[PhantomX]

That's always a good bet. I tend to do the same thing if it's working, lol. No need to change it til they break it

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Just tapping Flamethrower for the first burst is its best use anyways, just as a really nice spacing tool.

I only will use a prolonged Flamerthrower at the edge normally against Falco and characters with similiar recovery that cant afford to not DI into the flames and get *****.