best Projectiles list

[saviorslegacy]

That's great, but doesn't warrant higher than 15th best projectile in the game.

You gotta point.
I still think they are better than Yoshi's Egg Throw and IC's Ice Blocks.

Ice blocks set up for grabs...

So?
The projectile itself isn't that good. All you gotta do is jab it.
It is only good because of the d-sync ability.

There is only one setup for ice blocks leading directly into a grab that I know of, and it's very plainly visible to see coming. In that regard, the ICs have no good setups for their grabs.

Even then, we're talking about it as a projectile, not in relation to the character as a whole.

And Tidal, it's nice to listen to other people, but if a projectile is in fact... a projectile, then it goes on the list. If people disagree then they're idiots and shouldn't be listened to. You don't take their "opinion" into account if they're simply wrong.

About Ice blocks vs Sheik's needles...

The only notable goals for using either is to keep an opponent from camping, to force an approach, and/or to rack up extra damage throughout a match. I'd argue that the needles are better at all three if there was a way to word it to help prove that I'm right. There isn't a definitive way to explain it though, so instead I'll list the qualities that make it a great projectile and more deserving of a higher placing... at least above the IC's projectile.

• They punish landing lag very very well.
• Have transcendent priority.
• Do something like 18% (check me on this) fully charged.
• Come out very quickly and are very fast.
• For this reason they punish a lot of projectile usage (most notably Snake's grenades, a character the ice blocks won't prevent from camping very well might I add.)
• Is a useful edgeguarding attack.
• Did I mention they do 18% fully charged? xD
• They're fast enough to combo out of a few attacks.

Olimar's Fsmash... is fantastic... I didn't think I'd have to explain that one. <.<
Instead, just watch any top level Olimar player and see how often he uses it... >.>

*claps*

They punish projectile usage because they eat threw anything that stands in their way because they are transcendent.

Also... I believe that Ice Blocks are a HORRID anti camping tool.
I mean... *jab*
"Now what?"

 

[-Mars-]

Ice Blocks over needles??? lmao.

 

[Mota]

^ agreed

Good to see bombs aren't being underestimated.

 

[haloman800]

I'd like to see Dedede's side B go up, because:

The distance and arc that the Waddle Dee/Doo/Gordo follows and travels can be changed slightly. he arc affects the distance as well, and can be slightly higher if the control stick is tilted up, and vise versa if tilted down. If you short up, side B, and tilt the control stick up, it will fly very far.

It can't be reflected back at the opponent (Minus the Gordo, but it's so quick I've never had it happened to me, plus, how many people have reflectors besides the space animals?)

They block almost all other projectiles.

They can be picked up and re-thrown after throwing.

They look awesome.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

how many people have reflectors besides the space animals?.

ROB
Pit
Zelda
Lucas
Ness

...I think that's it.

For the record.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why are suit pieces so high? As good as they are, they still can only be summoned one time in a match, and you can't even summon them on command. They're forced to appear.

As such, I don't believe they even qualify to be on this list.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ROB
Pit
Zelda
Lucas
Ness

...I think that's it.

For the record.

don't forget mario

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Woops!

I actually remembered him, but forgot to write him down.

ROB
Pit
Zelda
Lucas
Ness
Mario

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think Snakes nades are 2nd best. Not only do they do good dmg but they punish people for hitting snake and they get him out of chaingrabs, they also can be stripped so its hard to even try to use them against snake.

The suite pieces while good don't list forever and once they are gone u can't get them back which i think should make them drop on the list.

Snakes Nikita should rise a little. Its more or less like Din's fire but can be controlled better and snakes sometime use it to help them not be juggled when high in the air. I think this makes it better then something like din's fire which has less uses and less ways of hitting

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol, the amount of times you can use an item shouldn't affect judgment over how good they are. Just because you can only use ZSS's pieces once doesn't mean they're bad.

For instance, you can only use Final Smashes once every few minutes of so, and usually they end with KO's, but they're clearly still ridiculously overpowered enough to be insta-banned from like a week after the game was released.

Not saying ZSS's pieces are THAT good, but definitely in the same ballpark of broken.

EDIT: I play a lot of B+, so maybe I'm just biased, but often armor piece combo me to death, more often than I'm willing to admit.

 

[UTDZac]

G&W's Chef projectile is a VERY GOOD projectile. It greatly limits the opponents options. The hitstun the opponent receives after coming in contact with a piece of bacon is huge, so much so that G&W can follow up with almost any attack (which includes his fair and fsmash). Most G&W user's have trouble comboing into smash attack because of the huge startup time and predictability of the smashes. However, Chef fixes that problem.

I'm going to rank how great the move is compared to other projectiles on the list.

Chef is weaker than:
Diddy Kong - Banana Peel
Falco – Laser
Samus - Suit Piece
Snake – Grenade
Olimar – Pikmin Throw
R.O.B. - Gyro
Pit – Palutena’s Arrow
Toon Link – Bomb
Link – Bomb
Yoshi – Egg Throw
R.O.B. – Laser
Sheik – Needles
Lucas – PK Fire
Toon Link – Boomerang

Chef is equal to:
Peach – Turnip
Lucario – Aura Sphere
Snake – Mortar (Usmash)
Wolf – Blaster
Samus – Charge Shot

Chef is better than:
Ice Climbers – Ice Block
Pikachu – Thunder Jolt
Lucas – PK Thunder
Wario – Bike/Tires
Link - Gale Boomerang
Toon Link – Hero's Bow
Fox – Laser Shot
Diddy Kong – Peanut Gun
Link – Hero's Bow
King Dedede - Waddle Throw
Samus – Homing Missile
Ness – PK Thunder
Samus – Super Missile
Mario – Fireball
Zero Suit Samus – Paralyzer Shot
Ivysaur – Razor Leaf
Ness – PK Fire
Luigi – Fireball
Zelda – Din’s Fire
Squirtle – Water Gun
Mario – F.L.U.D.D.
Sonic - Spring
Samus – Bomb
Snake – Nikita
Kirby – Final Cutter
Lucas – PK Freeze
Ness – PK Flash
Snake – Cypher

 

[-Mars-]

chef better than Foxs' Lasers?????? bwahahahahahaha

 

[Tidal]

Sorry Zac, I'm going to have to see footage before I believe that
As far as I'm concerned Chef is slow, laggy, weak, extremely easy to avoid, short ranged and punishable. You'd need to disprove quite a few of those things to move it up...

edit: oh yeah I forgot to mention I have no acccess to a Wii anytime soon. can't test anything >_<

 

[some-guy]

Ness's PK thunder is better than Poocas's, it can tailwhip, lead to a ness missile, is faster, and can lead to more mindgames.

 

[UTDZac]

Sorry Zac, I'm going to have to see footage before I believe that
As far as I'm concerned Chef is slow, laggy, weak, extremely easy to avoid, short ranged and punishable. You'd need to disprove quite a few of those things to move it up...

I guess you can't accept the word of the best G&W player in the nation can you? I would love to provide you with video proof that it's amazing, however I don't have the time to go searching through all of my videos to find clips. If you have the time to browse through my video clips, go for it. http://www.youtube.com/shadowgripper

Chef may seem to be slow, laggy, weak, easy to avoid, short ranged, or punishable, HOWEVER that is because you are trying to use it the wrong way. Obviously if both characters are standing on the stage and you try to throw out some bacon, you can be easily punished. Why? Well the bacon is all that hard to avoid while your character is on the ground, and it's pretty easy to run up and punish them before the end of the chef animation.

Picture this. You just sent your opponent flying into the blastzone but didn't kill them. As they recover back to the stage you throw out 3-5 bacon pieces. What this does is greatly limit the space the opponent's character is allowed to move through. It limits their recovery options. They must go around it. If they airdodge through it you can simple wait and punish.

Good, so we've forced the opponent to go a certain path. But how does that help us? It's no different than any other projectile we use right, throw it out there and hope the opponent doesn't avoid it? Not exactly. Bacon is special in that G&W has a lot of time to move around while the projectile is still going. This, in a sense, gives the projectile negative lag. You don't have to sit around right after you use your projectile, because it lasts for SO long (58-76 frames).

This essentially allows you to attacking without having to commit to an attack move. The lingering bacon is the attack. If the opponent airdodges it you can wait and punish with another attack. If they move around it, you've taken a lot of guess work out of where they are going by removing a good chunk of the stage they can land on. The opponent cannot afford to get hit by a bacon piece. The hitstun is so great, they will easily get punished by any aerial or smash attack.

 

[-Mars-]

Can't most characters simply cancel bacon out with an attack?

 

[Minwu]

There are plenty of projectiles besides bacon pieces that have hitboxes out while you are free to move. Mario's air Fireballs, Pikachu's air Thunder Jolts, Snake's grenades, Falco's SHDL, Samus' homing missile etc. not to mention that Chef shoots out different types of food at random. It's an average projectile that happens to fit G&W's playstyle decently well.

 

[orange/xd]

Ness's PK Thunder should be above his PK Fire imo

 

[Loota]

G&W's uair also came to my mind but I don't know if it was anywhere close to a projectile.

 

[Tidal]

I considered putting windboxes (G&W Uair, DDD Inhale, Kirby Inhale, Ganon Utilt, etc...) in the list but I think it will have no chance to be considered a projectile by most players. Still, I think technically it might be a projectile. I'm just not sure how windboxes work.

 

[Ussi]

Why not add Ike's aether too the list That's a vertical projectile for some time. I would put his Aether between Luigi's fireball and Snake's Nikita. Good for stopping aerial approaches and that's it, but super punishable on those really fast air movement characters.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I considered putting windboxes (G&W Uair, DDD Inhale, Kirby Inhale, Ganon Utilt, etc...) in the list but I think it will have no chance to be considered a projectile by most players. Still, I think technically it might be a projectile. I'm just not sure how windboxes work.

A wind box is not a projectile.

Step out side and let the wind hit your face. You will come to the assumption that it isn't a projectile.

 

[Tidal]

I would not classify it as a projectile, because its trajectory is dependant on Ike's position. You can't throw the blade, then run to your opponent during its flight.

I agree it seems like a projectile, but take a look at Falco's Shine. He kicks his reflector forward, causing a hitbox that is seperate from his body and disappears after flying a certain distance forward. Why is this not a projectile? When Falco uses it in the air while falling, the reflector will "fall with him" in the exact same way, no matter in what direction Falco chooses to fall, it will always stay at the same distance to him. Real projectiles, like Falco's Laser, stay at the height they were fired, even if Falco falls down while firing. Lasers don't "fall with him", they stay at the same height.

Still, if enough people agree with Aether being a projectile, I will add it to the list but don't count on it.




@ saviorslegacy:
In fact, real life wind is a projectile. The seperate air molecules fly at a trajectory independant of the position where they were formed, and hit your face at high speed.

But we cannot discuss brawl theory using real life analogies :/ sorry

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falco's laser is dependent on his position. It will go in a straight line from where ever he fired it.

Ike's aether is dependent on his position. It will go in a straight line from where ever he threw it.

Seems close enough to me. >_> <_<

EDIT: Granted, it would be the only projectile thats a spike...

 

[Tidal]

Falco's laser is dependent on his position. It will go in a straight line from where ever he fired it.

Ike's aether is dependent on his position. It will go in a straight line from where ever he threw it.

Seems close enough to me. >_> <_<

EDIT: Granted, it would be the only projectile thats a spike...

where ever he fired it

THIS is the very definition of a projectile projectiles are dependant on the position WHERE THEY WERE FIRED, not dependant on the position of the character that fired it. I use the term "launch point" for this position.

Ike's Aether, while being dependant on the launch point, is also dependant of Ike's position; e.g. he cannot control it, move while it is in flight, or fall relative to it while it is in flight.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....

That doesn't work though.

The position where the projectile was fired is dependent on the position of the character. >_>

And if I'm following your logic correctly: you can't count Link's/Toon Link's bombs because they are dependent on where the character is...

My head hurts. @_@ Too many slight variances.

 

[Tidal]

You have to think relativity that explains everything.

The "launch point" is fixed relative to the stage. When Falco fires a laser while falling, the moment the laser appears from Falco it obtains a coordinate, the launch point, which does not change afterwards. Falco can fall towards the stage (move relative to it) while the laser cannot; it always stays at the same height. All projectiles I see as true projectiles, have a set trajectory relative to this launch point (and thus, also relative to the ground).

The test I have been using to determine whether Charizard's Flamethrower is a projectile, was to jump up in the air, use the projectile, and watch the projectile closely while Charizard kept falling to the stage. What I noticed was that when you use it on the ground, each "spark" of the flamethrower never gets further above Charizard than maybe half a Charizard. But when used in the air, I saw Charizard falling away from the spark, resulting in the spark being more than half a Charizard away from him. That difference confirmed its status as a projectile. Sometimes it's hard to test a move (Final Cutter) but I used falling blocks and ice for that.

Regarding bombs; it is true that they are not a projectile while you "draw" them, but this is not a launching animation; you launch them when you throw them, and they are projectiles in this situation. Link and Toon Link can move relative to the bomb's launch point.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Aether has a set vertical trajectory, and a near non-existent horizontal trajectory variable.

Close enough.

>_>

<_<

Does G&W's bacon toss thingy have a set trajectory? It seems to have more like a set "area" then a set "trajectory"

 

[Tidal]

I tested Chef only slightly, but it definitely is dependant on the launch point not the character. It does have a set trajectory, but only for each seperate piece of food; they all have a different trajectory, but for each type of food the trajectory is set. I believe drumsticks fly in a high, short arc, fish fly low and far, and bacon flies a normal arc.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But there are multiple tosses. If you use it in the air, each individual one is dependent on where G&W is at the time.

 

[Tidal]

Correct. For each toss, teh piece of food launched has its own launch point, relative to which it has an arc trajectory. It's true that it moves relative to where G&W was at the moment of launching, but that's only because at that very moment, G&W was where the launch point was. G&W can move relative to the stage, the launch point cannot.

I'll describe it:

G&W falling. G&W activates Chef. G&W creates a launch point and launches a piece of food from that point. G&W continues to fall. The piece of food goes through its arc. G&W creates another launch point, and another piece of food with a different arc than the previous one. G&W continues to fall. The second piece of food goes through its arc. etc..

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....

@_@ Stupid head.

Still trying to understand the logic here...

Ike can move *slightly* relative to the stage during Aether. The projectile (spinning sword), also moves with him. I think based on your logic, it's a projectile that combines the set launch point of most projectiles (Lasers, Bombs), with a very minimal amount of motion control the movement of the projectile (Zelda and Snake's Side B).

And wouldn't by the logic you have stated so far, Lucas's Side B not be a projectile, as both him and the Fire have a set path outside of a glitch?

 

[Tidal]

We might wanna take this to PM unless you feel this is constructive to the thread

Erm. Aether is very weird in that it moves the character that uses it, nothing I know of has this property. I can dismiss it as a projectile instantly because Ike moves along with, even though it also moves vertically during this, it never changes its trajectory (that's what I was looking for) relative to Ike; as soon as Ike shifts, the vertical path shifts along with him, unlike stuff like Falco's lasers do.

Again, compare it to Falco's Shine. Hell, put Aether horizontally. See the similarity? Falco can shift vertically (fall), but the reflector will move forward while following Falco's vertical shift. Aether does the same, without falling (but with user control).


Lucas's PK Fire, as far as I know, will not shift relative to the ground/launch point while Lucas can fall down/to the sides during this. Lucas has a lot of lag, but he can control his fall, thereby shifting away from the projectile. In this case the projectile being diagonal makes it a bit harder to see, but I think it does not follow Lucas when he falls away from it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>_>

<_<

Screw it, too much thinking in the morning. I say any disjointed attack that isn't part of a normal sword swing or is something stupid like Snake's tilts is a projectile.

Add Falco's reflector and Ike's Aether. :D /done

 

[Tidal]

Allright. If enough people agree with Falco's Shine and Ike's Aether, I will add them.

 

[Matador]

*agrees with Shine and Aether*

I disagree with chef > Mario's fireballs...on account of them having the same effect on opponents, except Mario has more of a frame advantage and less winddown. He also has better control over the trajectory, though he doesn't have the option of covering over his head.

I watched about 7 of your vids UTD Zac, and I haven't been able to see what you're describing, though I see Chef's potential on platforms like Smashville's or Rainbow cruise. So far, it seems that you're using them similar to how Marios generally use their fireballs.

 

[UTDZac]

It is very very easy to determine if something is a projectile or not.

At the end of each game, scroll down the list of stats and view the "Projectiles" stat.

Using G&W's Chef will increase this stat.
Using G&W's Uair will not increase this stat.

 

[-Jumpman-]

The best projectile is arguably the banana. I think the laser is second because of how well it can be used with Falco's abilities. Snake's nade is third because it allows for a save camping option.

 

[Matador]

I judge the best anything -jab, projectile, usmash- by how much MORE ridiculous MK would be if said attack were in his arsenal. It's silly, but fun to think about...

So yah...MK w/ Nanners = lolwut??

 

[smashkng]

The best thing of grenades are the damage and that it can be safe even against reflector characters. Though you can still get outcamped with them. It would be really broken if it exploded in contact, though it's still pretty good.