BBR Weekly Character Discussion #11: Lucario

[ShadowLink84]

It's a measure of how many "units" the character moves with their glide toss I think. It's been a long time since I looked at the topic for that. The units were like a square width to equal to one custom block from stage builder I think.

Correct.
1 square block=1 unit

So Lucario hs a TERRIBLE glide toss, Diddy has an awesome glide toss, Sonic has an overkill glide toss and Link has NO glide toss.

 

[Shaya]

I think Lucario is fine in his current tier.
I feel he will share similar viability to those in his tier (olimar, dedede, pikachu, etc) for the rest of brawl's life span.

 

[CO18]

it doesnt make sense though lol. Lucarios backward glide toss goes extremely far. Definitley longer than diddy's from what Ive seen. Anyway it doesnt matter so w/e

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah pikachu's is way farther than diddy's...

 

[ShadowLink84]

it doesnt make sense though lol. Lucarios backward glide toss goes extremely far. Definitley longer than diddy's from what Ive seen. Anyway it doesnt matter so w/e

I think it had something to do with initial velocity when dodging.

Yeah pikachu's is way farther than diddy's...

It is also why Diddy's glide toss is the BEST for bananas.
As well as Sonic's.
LOL catching bananas before they land

 

[culexus・wau]

Lee's post was the best.

Lucario can mix up his glidetoss range so its either insanely far or about the same as diddys.

his forward glidetoss is **** though. only moves him like one milimeter forward =(

bump because I needed help finding this thread I'm sure half of the boards will have the same problem under all those stickiers + the GD

 

[Dark 3nergy]

best
troll thread
EVER
[ref to infernos]

900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Lucario is a gimmick and a half.

rly pierce this is all you needed to say. Actually, for some of the SSB cast in brawl we could argue that some of their meta game is solely dependent on gimmicks. whether these gimmicks come from their cannon-abilities or 'creatively' thought up ideas programmed/designed into the character


however in lucys case, his gimmick hurts him and holds him back over all versus other characters, hence his tier position. Upb? well...it is what it is. Least it can be curved around the ledge so lucy can get back...........heh.....heh...heh............[im looking at you tether recoveries]

Aura? welp it is what it is. Useless at 0%, loving awesome at 172%-- thats just how straight forward lucy is
















but at the end of the day gentlemen there is one thing to seriously consider when looking at lucario-- and that is do you enjoy setting people on fire with nothing but YOUR BARE HANDS AND FEET?

 

[Steam]

Lucario would be better without aura. I'd much prefer it for him to always be at base power (75%)

of course fighting falco would suck a lot more... but a lot of the heavywieghts that give him tons of trouble wouldn't be so bad.

 

[D. Disciple]

I hate this thread.

 

[phi1ny3]

Against Diddy, it's pretty even cut, probably Diddy's favor, but it's a MU that I think Diddy's are far more developed in than the other way around. Lucario's edgeguard game+camp game with one banana is super useful against Diddy (Diddy always eats AS if he GT's if you time it right). Diddy fair is a pain in that MU though :\
On the subject of glidetossing, I suggest replacing FGT w/ JCGT (can also JCGT downward for forward dribbling). Not that it's recommended that you GT at a Diddy lol.
He can also dribble with bananas, which is nice.

The only true negative to Lucario is the fact that his Up-b is the only one in the game that has no hitbox. That leads him to get edgeguarded pretty hard which is why he has trouble with characters like D3 and DK who can just hit him off and throw hitboxes out there. I don't know much about this character...so I can't really input more than that.

rofl Lucario has the same thing to DK right back, fair n' dair absolutely wreck DK. Unless you were talking about MK, then yeah it's pretty sucky.

I agree that dair is pretty overrated, although it does help make his vertical zoning/fullhop game significantly better. One of the fewer characters that can afford to do fullhop aerials w/ only two jumps, although this often makes him prone to shield grabbing upon landing

roll is amazing, junebug's lucario lives for this move lol.

ftilt is pretty much fsmash's little brother. At this point most good lucs have learned to only use fsmash in places where the opponent is least likely to shield (aka landing frame traps, reading dodges/rolls, or if they're on the ledge). Pretty doable to PS on reaction, and unfortunately doesn't decrease release time significantly, so delaying it via charging isn't exactly as useful as it is for other chars (although it has a nice strutter-step).

I think something that's been very undernoted that might become more of a driving force in Luc's ground game is his noticeably fast dash animation. dash -> shield is very quick, which allows for faster true pivots, etc. Couple that with fairly large range attacks, and I think Lucario can have a fighting chance in ground control. He's very strong at punishing landings with a lot of frame trap potential.

His throws are veeeeeeeeeery rewarding. dthrow/bthrow for spacing/early game damage, uthrow/dthrow for juggling traps, uthrow for a few CGs, and fthrow for "equalizing" at high percents (pummels + fthrow in the 90%+ is pretty nice damage lol)

Luc upB is balls lol, although if there's gonna be a character that's forced to eat damage for it, it's gonna be lucario. Luckily, I think he has a much better time than say, Sheik, tether chars, etc. Has a decent cooldown landing onstage, curving def helps, and having a stall move, projectiles, and long DJ really helps (still is very edgeguard prone, but still).

Aura is fantastic, great mechanic for getting compensation for conditioning/picking up on patterns, also gives him some good tools against characters who lack in killpower.

BAS (uncharged Aura sphere) is pretty meh, not nearly as useful as it was 2 years ago.

uair, dtilt, and jab are really nice moves I love/think are underused. Usmash, DT, dsmash are kinda lacking in qualities of particular use.

Having good tools against jugglings a decent positive, B-reversals, nair, and dair stall are pretty handy for covering up landing.

And yes, he has transcendent priority, minus specials. Unlike MK though, lucario's limbs often extend a lot and allow moves to clank w/ them. Allows for decent fanning and such, but sometimes is a pain to deal with at times. fsmash, AS > 10%, usmash, and most aerials (although all of them suck at stopping it) beat tornado, just if anyone's wondering.

Aura is really handy w/ prediction/reads, which also makes him a worthy option for anyone who can pick up on an opponent on a player-by-player basis, which I think is his primary drive for doing better than he does on paper.

He's a smidgen fragile stage-wise, loves Frigate against most minus characters w/ better recovery. Loves neutrals in general, often stages good/bad for lucario are defined by blastzone size.

Might drop due to a slight cut in results with the absence of Zucco, but probably going to hang in high B/low A. Definitely a much better char in doubles lol.
Lots of solid tools, but an only "decent" character (especially in startup speed, bleh).

edit: Good **** Lee Martin

 

[Loota]

Which character(s) do you think will rise over Lucario if he dropped in tiers? Do you think Lucario itself has gotten worse or have the other characters just got better?

Personally I believe that he won't leave high tier anytime soon because Lucario has some clearly better traits over the majority of the characters in mid tier except maybe for ZSS. Neither Toon Link or Kirby should be a threat not even mentioning Pit. G&W isn't that familiar for me but according to what I have heard and seen, he isn't going to rise.

Yeah, I'm kinda random.

 

[Braxton2011]

(Insert generic troll post involving how good Double Team is against Solo Popo)

 

[Kofu]

Not exactly related to Lucario but
I'm preeeeeeeetty sure R.O.B.'s Up-B has no hitbox either.
Just sayin'.
Good job, BBR.

EDIT: and Sonic, and Jigglypuff and Pit kinda.

 

[culexus・wau]

ROB can cancel his though.


omg if we could cancel UpB like in Brawl+/-

:<

 

[Steam]

Lucario doesn't destroy most characters. He seems good against Pikachu, but I can beat Lucario with even Jigglypuff, and I feel he outright LOSES to Mario. Not even close to top tier material.

Not saying Lucario isn't a mediocre character. But even if he loses to Mario that shouldn't be hindering him in the tiers. I mean diddy is at a slight Disadvantage against jiggz supposedly. and Ice climbers lose to Zelda and Link iirc. Losing to a specific low tier shouldn't really matter especially in brawl when there arent many low tier users. However I do see your point that Lucario not really destroying anyone (except Sonic) can limit his potential.

 

[Kofu]

Aside from Jigglypuff, he's definitely got the worst Up-B lacking a hitbox though, when it comes to recovery, since R.O.B.'s, Pit's, and Sonic's can all be canceled. Jigglypuff's has some usefulness when ledge canceled, too.

But Lucario can ledge cling, which sometimes helps.

 

[Steam]

I'd say Pit's upB is worse than Luc's due to how fragile it is, even with the windbox.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm inclined to disagree

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean diddy is at a slight Disadvantage against jiggz supposedly. and Ice climbers lose to Zelda and Link iirc.

Where do you have that (mis-)information from?

I do think Mario beats Lucario though because Lucario lacks the OoS options to outright beat any follow-ups to Mario's SH Dair approach. He can perform a retreating SH Dair and then react to whatever Lucario does by either caping aura sphere or nair / airdodge any other attack. He can also maneuver around aura balls with ease in general, has better mix-ups in close range and has the tools to exploit Lucario's recovery.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah BAS/AS rocks against "specialized/alternative movement" methods aka klaw hopping/floating/t-jolt camping, also nice against anyone else you'd want to trade projectile shots with/out-prioritize (would be amazing against space animals if they didn't have reflectors )

 

[culexus・wau]

I could agree on it being slightly his favor.

Mario is annoying if he plays the MU right.

 

[phi1ny3]

June thinks it's even iirc, and he knows the MU pretty handily. Not a real solid advantage for lucario, suffice to say

I think in order for Luc to get better v. DDD, there's gonna have to be a lot more "gay" happening in that department. Aside from edgeguarding for high damage, Lucario fortunately has the benefit of DDD lacking a reliable killer (inb4bair, bair should only kill at 140% at least lol), so unless he gets lol'd by utilt/dsmash, more often than not he's going to be a juggernaut for most of that MU. The problem is, he has a haaaaaard time getting a single kill move in (imo primed sideB is going to be invaluable for this part of the MU), in the mean time, Lucarios are gonna have to camp around with AS roll and such, not the best, but enough to force approach I suppose.

It gets ridiculous when DDD gets the CP though, unless you live in my region where it's become very conservative lol.

 

[Steam]

Where do you have that (mis-)information from?

The character boards here >.>

 

[culexus・wau]

I used to be on the jiggly vs diddy is jiggly's favor wagon

used to.

 

[Steam]

Both their boards say it's even :L

also IC boards have the Zelda MU at a 55:45 Zelda advantage.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I'd say Pit's upB is worse than Luc's due to how fragile it is, even with the windbox.

pit can do alot more simply because he has multiple jumps/glide too broski, who says he has to upb everytime hes offstage

Where do you have that (mis-)information from?

I do think Mario beats Lucario though because Lucario lacks the OoS options to outright beat any follow-ups to Mario's SH Dair approach. He can perform a retreating SH Dair and then react to whatever Lucario does by either caping aura sphere or nair / airdodge any other attack. He can also maneuver around aura balls with ease in general, has better mix-ups in close range and has the tools to exploit Lucario's recovery.

i've been on lucy n' have had my upb caped before. However there have been some instances where if mario capes lucys upb too soon[start up frames] it just turns lucy around yet lucy can still angle the upb after he starts to move in a direction

 

[Steam]

I know Dark but we were just comparing UpBs not recovery as a whole. pit has a much better recovery than luc.

 

[Browny]

keep on trollin' Pieяce, while youre doing a good job, its piss easy with that company.

Good to see majority of the sbr has spent next to no time thinking about WHY lucario places well and is so quick to think of possible reasons to why people lose to Lucario. I got one for ya; diddy is actually bad because people dont use bananas as well as him against him, he should drop 2-3 spots. Spot the difference!

There exists no reason why Lucario should drop. If its so easy in super theorycraft bros to beat lucario, that means precisely NOTHING unless it actually happens across the world. Unbelievable blatant character bias on show right here, inventing excuses to justify your reasoning as to why he is 'bad' yet refusing to, or completely inverting that same horrid thought process to favoured characters (like pit) is very professional.

Im not saying luc should be higher or anything, if anything hes probably as high as he will ever get, but this discussion was predictably embarrasing when most people refuse to acknowledge what makes a character good and to my disgust, call Aura overpowered. Thats real mature guys. You sound like a bunch of kids.



Heres a start. The reason why Lucario is good and places well is because not only does he get safer at high %, it is obviously more risky to ever approach him. His shield stun and shield knockback all increase with % and suddenly his moves become unpunishable. His fsmash tipper is completely unpunishable on block by every character (not ps) by around 120%. Similarly his very safe ftilt and dtilt have such a deceptively high amount of shield stun and knockback, people try to punish it with tilts but just find lucario has rolled away and charging another FCAS which will kill you.

So people act differently. The risk:reward game for the other character turns drastically in lucarios favour to a much higher degree than any other character. Not only is the risk increased doubly because he hits you harder and it is much more difficult to actually punish his moves, but the reward sometimes isnt even entirely in your favour. If you hit lucario with a move that doesnt result in a KO, hes just stronger than before. Thats a TRIPLE threat that no other character has. Thats not all, when he comes back his moves are less punishable than before, you might not even be able to punish his spacing attacks with a KO move anymore and hes MORE harder to kill.

Of course he suffers to flipside with being very weak should he lose the stock lead but the effect is far, FAR less dramatic to a shift in playstyle of the lucario than what you will see of the opponent, the most obvious example is with safe spacing attacks. DK's bair may be incredible against luc normally, but when luc has an FCAS which will go through the bair and outright kill DK, how likely is dk to use that normally safe attack? Now what if DK was against say, snake? See what im getting at here?

 

[Zucco]

boo boo bee boo.

 

[Pierce7d]

lol

My area has a couple Lucario

RJ, who I regularly train with
Zucco
Ksizzle
Shippo

Ask them if I'm trolling about the Lucario MU.

 

[Browny]

Your posts here are aimed almost entirely about your opinion of Lucarios matchups. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but they are far from a realistic reason as to justify a drop in the tier list. Your blind bias towards/against certain characters as noted in just about everywhere is hard to discount when it comes to this thread, theres a far bigger picture which you seem to think that if you extrapolate your comparatively tiny experiences from, you can form the whole picture. Its not trolling us, its more of corrupting this entire thread with your mere opinions and stating them as fact which VERY EVIDENTLY, many other bbr members who posted here have very minimal knowledge about Lucario, they are easily swayed.

Spoiler

He's got some great tools. Transcendent priority is always nice to have, and he gets progressively stronger as the match goes on. However he doesn't seem to perform as well in tournaments as this would suggest.

Funny seeing as he has repeatedly place higher than his tier position would suggest for a LONG time, and its getting better still today.

Aura is overpowered as all get out. So you take a character that's not very good and give it one of the most overpowered mechanics in the game and you get something that is just a bit above average.

How old are we? You dont like something so you call it overpowered as an excuse to cover a complete lack of evidence or reason?

What transcendent priority?
I really don't recall any of his move having any.

Seriously?

Fsmash's sweet spot. I think there's another one but I don't remember at the moment.

Getting better... theres a lot more than 1 though.

Then i remember how he ***** spotdodges with his smashes and then im like oooooooo yeah. Thats when hes good. When people forget to shield.

I forgot to laugh. Also, landing lag is a FAR bigger threat than spotdodges against Lucario. Although clearly you wouldnt know that.

If I were Pikachu, I would just pivot grab approaches, camp Utilt and Fsmash, and just treat it like Marth. Run in and shield is also good.

If I were you, I'd stick to what I know. Marth and only marth.

Lucario would higher on the tier list if Azen still played.

Isnt it funny how junebug is recreating the same feats as azen in 2010?


Despite all this, as I noted above, clearly NO ONE (bar lee who didnt mention it anyway) is aware of the fact that Lucarios attacks get safer as he gets stronger. You might be able to punish his predictable spacing attacks with a KO normally, but you forget that if lucario plays extremely campy, your options to punish his spacing tools begins to shrink to 0.

I don't approve of the brainwashing of people who clearly are in no position to vote on any matter regarding Lucarios position in the tier list.

This is what I see, Lucarios ranking position over the last year's worth of updates

12th
10th
10th
12th

Lucario gets good placings in tournaments on a regular basis not because aura is a gimmick, not because people get hit by fsmash, not because people arent CP'ing him with mario, but because he CAN. His players acknowledge his flaws and they work around them. They learn his bad matchups to make them more viable and place well. Do you know why other mid tier characters are unable to perform this same feat in regular tournament placings? Its quite simple, because they cant. All the excuses and favourable matchup ratios in the world dont make a difference if players cant prove it.

You werent technically trolling, but as I said, you are very narrow-sighted about his viability. While you sit there diverting the easily corrupted BBR's opinions towards your ideal world of super theorcraft bros brawl, Lucarios around the world are placing well. If the only reason you have as to why Lucario continues places well is that people dont know the matchup, then that is a horrible excuse for a lack of evidence with no weight. It works both ways you know, Lucario players are capable of learning his bad matchups too. Co-incidentally, the exact thing which has happened over brawls life and the results of which are clear as day.

I should clarify, the last 2 paragraphs are not aimed solely at you pierce.

 

[Braxton2011]

Browny using the Sandpaper condom on people, good stuff.

I fully mastered the D3 match up and I almost never lose, the only notable person I've lost to is Addy.

 

[iFudge]

Browny using the Sandpaper condom on people, good stuff.

I fully mastered the D3 match up and I almost never lose, the only notable person I've lost to is Addy.

lol wifi :o D3 aint gud on wifi.

 

[ksizl4life]

900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Lucario is a gimmick and a half. He can grab you if he gets close enough, but his baiting tools suck, he can't use an offensive tool against a crouching opponent except forward roll (LOL), he doesn't get gimped if he recovers high, but can be edgeguarded, etc.

A gimmick? so are 30 other characters in the game. You don't need to bait with him. You just need to understand the character and his tools. People who are getting baited in 2010 need to stop playing this game.

Pretty much, Aura is amazing, and people get hit by Fsmash a lot for some reason. MK's that don't know the MU get *****, but MKs that do know the MU (like me) destroy all instances of this character. Case in point, Ksizzle beats M2k with Lucario, but I typically win rather solidly.

I agree that if you know the matchup it becomes quite difficult with lucario. I've wrecked every lucario i've played minus junebug because i decided to change my strat in one of the rounds, therefore making me lose that round. Impossible? no. Lee Martin knows the matchup greatly but i beat him in most of our matches. Why? cuz i was better than him at the time and understood BOTH characters better. thats what it came down to. Yeah i can beat m2k, doesnt mean he doesnt understand lucario a bit. he considered it one of his best MUs due to playing azen alot and it was a big journey to actually start taking games. also i know what hes gonna do all the time, something i dont know about you since i havent played ur mk that much. all mk's play differently. im slow at adapting so i needed to play you in a couple matches before beating you. yeah you won like 2 or 3 more than me but i have a brain so even if you play rj alot and know lucario well, doesnt mean itll be cake for you as youve seen. also, who knows the MU with mk? like no one. me , lee martin, you, maybe havok, maybe dojo. thats like it.

Lucario doesn't destroy most characters. He seems good against Pikachu, but I can beat Lucario with even Jigglypuff, and I feel he outright LOSES to Mario. Not even close to top tier material.

hes good vs pikachu. yeah maybe you can beat lucario with jiggs. doesnt mean youll beat me or the top 6 with her

His Utilt is his fastest move at F5. Grab is F6 with Jab. Dtilt is F8 I think. I haven't reviewed his Frame Data in a while, but the point is that his close range moves are underwhelming, so he's deceptively BAD at close combat when fighting others good at it. He can roll around to escape and land stupid trades to annoy you, but other than that, he's just trying to crunch enemy approaches and punish landings and dodges that needn't happen.



Mediocre character at large.

Lucario has the tools to win. You play it down too much and its sometimes annoying. I'd like to know what isn't a mediocre character in your opinion.

Read quote homo

 

[iRJi]

900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Lucario is a gimmick and a half. He can grab you if he gets close enough, but his baiting tools suck, he can't use an offensive tool against a crouching opponent except forward roll (LOL), he doesn't get gimped if he recovers high, but can be edgeguarded, etc.

Pretty much, Aura is amazing, and people get hit by Fsmash a lot for some reason. MK's that don't know the MU get *****, but MKs that do know the MU (like me) destroy all instances of this character. Case in point, Ksizzle beats M2k with Lucario, but I typically win rather solidly.

Lucario doesn't destroy most characters. He seems good against Pikachu, but I can beat Lucario with even Jigglypuff, and I feel he outright LOSES to Mario. Not even close to top tier material.

His Utilt is his fastest move at F5. Grab is F6 with Jab. Dtilt is F8 I think. I haven't reviewed his Frame Data in a while, but the point is that his close range moves are underwhelming, so he's deceptively BAD at close combat when fighting others good at it. He can roll around to escape and land stupid trades to annoy you, but other than that, he's just trying to crunch enemy approaches and punish landings and dodges that needn't happen.

Mediocre character at large.

Ill make this short. When was playing yesterday with you, i was more of getting pissed off then focusing because you were ranting about it lol. I'll state this here, and safely say that Lucario does is not a gimmick, In fact, he is far from a gimmick. He just has tools that vary from others, and they still work despite the tools being odd to people. You know marth, but Lucario is a character I understand in and out, and almost every inch of, so I am very confident when I say the gimmick crap is nothing but empty statements right now. When we play, It's more that you play off of my horrid habits ( since my habits are really bad with lucario) like rolling in all the time when I have little reason to, rather then being the character out front. You are not the first to claim this, since Neo also has been claiming this, and even tells me on aim once in a while since we just **** around, but yet for everyone who claims this tends to either almost lose, or end up losing. If the consent is not get hit, then people are playing the wrong game. It is not my fault that Lucario gets a huge bonus when he is near death, blame sakurai for that.

Don't substitute his 5 possible losing MU's for a bad character, esp when Marth and MK are 2 of his hardest, and despite him having having the bad MU's he can still come out on top with a little extra effort.

The jiggz claim is a bit off, and your right, Lucario does not destroy most characters. Actually, most of his character MU's are even or a little in his favor, with a few that are a little out of his favor, but that does not mean he is not viable. Outside of me and the possible shippo, what lucario have you beaten with jiggz? and even when it's me, it's not that often, since I do come out on top more often then you do. Do it against Ksizzle or Zucco, you know, players who have been playing lucario more recently then I am and who are better with him xD. Theis claim is like, "I have beaten marths with pikachu, despite Marth having the complete advantage in the MU" come on lol.

I tend to stray away from the boards because people switch habits and player flaws for character deformities. Then you have to take into account the situation of players habitats when you do something like this as well. Zucco lives in the boondocks, and frankly only practices with himself more often then not, even when he use to take this game more seriously. I don't play the character as much right now, and even when I did I still had to worse habit of rolling in against any character when I play lucario, which more often then not gets me hit. Junebug I don't think you even playing since his huge improvement, and i don't think you have played Ksizzle's Lucario yet. Junebug and Ksizzle might be the only lucarios in our area who get more then a decent amount of practice against different people, since I only play lucario when I am with you, and don't do it anywhere else.

Again, this isn't the C falcon boards. Don't fill the heads here with false hope saying the character will not amount to anything, when the character has proven it's self time and time again.

I hate this thread.

Yea, I don't like it either lol.

Also guys, you ARE on the lucario boards you know. Information is available to you here. We do a good job keeping data organized (we use to anyway).

For people who are posting without knowing much, it would help to ask a question or two before commenting. Nothing is worse then going into a discussion without knowing much, and no one here bites for the most part.

Your posts here are aimed almost entirely about your opinion of Lucarios matchups. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but they are far from a realistic reason as to justify a drop in the tier list. Your blind bias towards/against certain characters as noted in just about everywhere is hard to discount when it comes to this thread, theres a far bigger picture which you seem to think that if you extrapolate your comparatively tiny experiences from, you can form the whole picture. Its not trolling us, its more of corrupting this entire thread with your mere opinions and stating them as fact which VERY EVIDENTLY, many other bbr members who posted here have very minimal knowledge about Lucario, they are easily swayed.


I don't approve of the brainwashing of people who clearly are in no position to vote on any matter regarding Lucarios position in the tier list.

This is what I see, Lucarios ranking position over the last year's worth of updates

12th
10th
10th
12th

Lucario gets good placings in tournaments on a regular basis not because aura is a gimmick, not because people get hit by fsmash, not because people arent CP'ing him with mario, but because he CAN. His players acknowledge his flaws and they work around them. They learn his bad matchups to make them more viable and place well. Do you know why other mid tier characters are unable to perform this same feat in regular tournament placings? Its quite simple, because they cant. All the excuses and favourable matchup ratios in the world dont make a difference if players cant prove it.

You werent technically trolling, but as I said, you are very narrow-sighted about his viability. While you sit there diverting the easily corrupted BBR's opinions towards your ideal world of super theorcraft bros brawl, Lucarios around the world are placing well. If the only reason you have as to why Lucario continues places well is that people dont know the matchup, then that is a horrible excuse for a lack of evidence with no weight. It works both ways you know, Lucario players are capable of learning his bad matchups too. Co-incidentally, the exact thing which has happened over brawls life and the results of which are clear as day.

I should clarify, the last 2 paragraphs are not aimed solely at you pierce.

This.

Also, at C018:

Our Glide toss forward is very non-existent as been stated before. However, You can Jump glide toss, and with that tool, you can actually Nana lock diddy the same as he would Nana lock you if he had 2 banana's, The end result leads into a Dsmash being the strongest, but a little hard to pull off due to spacing, and you have plenty of other moves that will do decent to good damage. It leads to Force palm, which is a kill move. Kill's diddy around 140 ish if we are at really low percents, and if we are at average percents (IE:70%ish) He will die as early as 125-130 on average. If we are higher, diddy is going to die relatively early.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Aura is overpowered as all get out. So you take a character that's not very good and give it one of the most overpowered mechanics in the game and you get something that is just a bit above average

How old are we? You dont like something so you call it overpowered as an excuse to cover a complete lack of evidence or reason?.

lol, wow. Clearly you don't understand at all what I was saying.

Yes, the aura IS overpowered. If any other character had it, it would be ridiculous. Lucario is good, but not great, so for him to have the aura is balanced. I wasn't complaining or saying it was a problem. Learn to read.

I'm not complaining about something that I don't understand. I understand how it works just fine and am explaining the effect that it has on the character. If you don't think that Lucario's character strength (or lack thereof) is balanced around having that ridiculous aura, then you obviously don't have a clue.

It's not like he would be terrible without the Aura, but it's a huge part of why he is as good as he is. To say otherwise is absurd. That's like saying that Snake's weight has nothing to do with his success.

 

[Steam]

you do know that aura weakens him under 75% right?

his base power is when he's at 75% damage. so in a lot of matchups he spends most of the time being weakened more than buffed by aura

 

[Browny]

Oh but MMM, here you are telling me that it is a fact that aura is overpowered.

Yet I can say that Aura is perfectly balanced.

We're back to square one? just because you think something is overpowered does not make it so. Any luc main will tell you its a double edged sword, for every person who complains that lucario is too powerful at high %, there is a lucario main who is complaining that once the first stock is lost, that one kill move which landed first could cause you to lose the entire match.

You still have no evidence that it is overpowered you know, thats a big call to make. You can tell me that if snake had aura he would be broken, but as steam pointed out, that would make his ftilt only do like 12%, dthrow 6 and utilt wont kill until 180% if he dies first. How can you conveniently miss that fact?

You CAN NOT POSSIBLY argue the apparent overpoweredness of Aura based off what you think Lucario would be without it, similarly how other characters would be. You dont know what their base power level would be. Snake could reach his 1.0 multiplier at 75, or 140, who knows. It would drastically change the way you think about it though. It is completely pointless to even think about this however because it is irrelevant and doesnt change anything at all.

 

[D. Disciple]

In the way that you're posting though MMM, you're saying that it's just an overpowered mechanic, granted yes it is when he's losing. But you seem to neglect that it also balances out if he's winning too. I could be on the verge of 3 stocking someone and I'm at high percent with Lucario, but his aura would be as if he was at 50% if they were at a fresh stock, making him damage output only two more percent than usual, meaning if I did a fair, instead of hitting them for 3% low aura, I would be getting off with 5% of damage mid aura, and not his 6-7%. They don't call our character the "Come Back Character" for nothing you know.

Also main reason why I hate this thread, is because the only person in this thread who actually knows Lucario that posted in here before the mains did was Lee Martin who actually spoke some truth and knowledge, you guys just base off from what you've seen or experience. How often do you play this character to actually figure out what is good and what isn't good? Spamming Fsmash is extremely bad FYI.

It's main purpose is to finish off an opponent, or finish a combo. It's a finisher case in point, we have other options to use other than spamming fsmash. What you should be worrying about is Aura sphere, our jabs, tilts and our grabs into follow ups and our combos that we can pull off at anytime. If you get read, expect to get hit more than 3 times from us, and if we're at high aura expect your percent to go from 0-80 percent if we land more than 4 hits on you.

Also the characters that you guys say wreck Lucario is funny, we don't have a hard time against MK, it's not our hardest match up. You could throw Snake, Dedede, oddly enough Marth into that area. We have ways of dealing with tornado, shuttle loop, dsmash and whatever else MK likes to spam at us.

Granted we're still underdeveloped and lazy to actually step up our metagame with Lucario, so you guys are stuck with the 08 version of Lucario which is roll and fsmash, so I can't blame you guys too much if you think that's all we do. Practice with this character come up with things that we haven't thought of and try this discussion over in the future, but until then. Most of the stuff you guys said just sounded completely wrong.

 

[phi1ny3]

"fsmash spam" is definitely 08 lol