BBR Recommended Rule List v2.0 & General Ruleset Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I try to keep it civil, but some of that has just been dealt with so many times in the stages forum.

 

[Mr.-0]

Yeah, I don't go there very often. So... do you have any more problems with my ruleset, or just the stagelist? My peeps won't be coming till Saturday so i was wondering If it sounded okay. I'm actually open to criticism, unlike a certain individual asking to be saved.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

And on Hanenbow, I consider circle camping stalling, therefore it would be illegal.

You see, circle camping is not stalling, it's just a really strong tactic that proves the winner to not be the one that is more skilled at the game.

I dislike how people are throwing around the term stalling now. There are very few things in this game that are legitimately stalling, and now with people claiming things are stalling, no wonder why BBR members think us wanting an official LGL on MK a knee jerk reaction.

If you can beat it, it's not stalling.

 

[Vyse]

I think Pokemon Stadium 2 is no less campier than PS1. They are both campy, but in different ways. I used to be of the opinion that the physics changes was enough to ban the stage, but I don't think so anymore.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MetalMusicMan04#grid/user/4C844C810AE48743
This play list has 32 matches on it, but some of them are well worth watching. Specifically they were recorded by MetalMusicMan for the purpose of demonstrating matches on 'gay' stages.

EDIT2:

Specific matches that seemed to have significantly "interesting" things happen (TLDR folks look here):

FAE vs TP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nENq8nURoFc

Legan vs Nicole 1.1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oVChrcIS4#t=3m38s

MetalMusicMan vs Legan 1.1 & 1.2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJXxVVq1TFE

MetalMusicMan vs Legan 1.3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OdAA17IcJg

Also

I'm posting this so that people can watch these and take what they want from them as research or fun or whatever. Please don't take anything I list here as me thinking that I have "the best empirical evidence" for any of my opinions. These are simply for whatever information that people can learn from watching them.

We have a good variety of skill levels in our crew, some people are still very new or learning and others are quite proficient. So if you want to say people are "bad" or whatever then just stop talking before you start, I know everyone here is not good

Myself, Cook, Nicole, Legan, and Future are all very much above average players and on a similar skill level, though. Also FAE is getting surprisingly good... None of us but FAE had any idea what we were doing on these "gay" stages, as we never or rarely play them.



Also, people generally find me and my crew to either be really annoying or really funny. You love us or you hate us. If you don't like our TOTALLY AWESOME commentary then feel free to mute Also don't take anything that anyone says seriously lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

We are not amused at the way these people mock the British way of speech They deserve nothing more than dried scones WITHOUT ANY TEA WHATSOEVER. AND CRUMPETS WITHOUT BUTTER.

In all seriousness, that Dancing Blade glitch on PS2 was hilarious

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm bookmarking that video for when anyone says PS2 should be legal :D

 

[rPSIvysaur]

PS2 should be legal IMO. It's scrubby to ban it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

PS2 should be legal IMO. It's scrubby to ban it.

This. This so much.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yeah, ps2 is definitely a legit counter stage.

 

[Kole]

just wondering, which characters do particularly do well on PS2? and how does MK do on it?

 

[Ussi]

PS2 is more of a player thing really.... its a gimmick stage that everyone can take advantage to an extent... no one really knows the full extent for now

 

[T-block]

lucas, yoshi, ness, gw would all do well on ps2. the stage probably gives mk less than it gives other characters actually.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PS2 should be legal IMO. It's scrubby to ban it.

Indeed.

PS2 is more of a player thing really.... its a gimmick stage that everyone can take advantage to an extent... no one really knows the full extent for now

This is the key point here. We are banning something without an actual good reason to ban it. We're just saying "ewwwww we don't like this" and banning it, without actual ****ing testing of the stage. PS2 should never be banned unless new tournament data comes out showing that it severely unbalances the game. And I don't mean theorycraft (which most east coast players throw at me when I bring up the stage) regarding how gay a certain character is on that stage. I mean showing MK/someone else winning every ****ing match on that stage in a serious tournament environment.

lucas, yoshi, ness, gw would all do well on ps2. the stage probably gives mk less than it gives other characters actually.

Exactly. I'd argue that it is, in fact, a pretty strong counterpick against MK for several characters (especially sonic comes to mind; his speed really helps on the electricity part, and he outright dominates the air part). But we don't know. So we keep it legal until it is shown to be a bad idea in serious tournaments, conclusively.

This exact same logic should apply to almost any stage. While on some stages you have the issue of randomness (and in that case, it's really a question of "how much randomness do you want to permit"; pictochat's hazards appear randomly, but there is a set time between them and they do not repeat within 8 minutes, and Norfair's hazards have a pattern but the location and direction is, AFAIK, random-however, they have a long-*** startup time), many stages currently banned have no real legitimate reasoning.
Yoshi's Island: Melee? Don't give me that blastzone camping crap until you've tried beating it. I'm fairly sure it works. DDD can only CG a few characters up the walls (and AFAIK none of them are really viable anyways).
Luigi's Mansion? Have we really seen that this is that bad with our momentary metagame? So MK's nado wrecks everyone inside the house. Get out of the house, then wreck the house. See if that works for you.
PTAD? Have we ever seen actual results showing things that people keep claiming, like "characters with bad recoveries get completely destroyed" or "the cars are too good at punishing"? No, we haven't! I can imagine banning this stage in a game like Brawl- or Brawl+ where you can easily combo your opponent into the cars, providing a very stupid kill, but there are exceedingly few options to nail a safely-playing opponent in vBrawl and knock him into the cars.
Onett? The blastzone camping is consistently interrupted by the cars. Have we ever tested this?
Green Greens? You say "oh my god walls in the middle, unbeatable strategies". I say "prove it". Ook ****ing wrecked Mikehaze in a 90-10 matchup at MLG on that stage, a stage which is supposedly incredible for DDD. If there are really such unbeatable strategies on Green Greens, where's the proof? Where's the tournament evidence?

We ban SO MANY STAGES WE HAVEN'T HONESTLY TESTED YET. We're such a ****ing scrubby community. And the ironic part? We do it to be more like street fighter (some tournaments consider "game 1 on FD" a smart move; the ****ing Brawl- tournament at APEX is running a 1-starter stage list with only Smashville in the starter stage list, apparently this is better than any other because "Smashville is the most fair stage". **** no.), a game that never bans anything.



However, this is more a topic for stage discussion, we should go back to the whole "strike the whole starter list" thing. The only issue this method brings is the length of time to strike, which players who are experienced at striking will not have (AA's method: one player strikes half the list -1.5, the other player strikes half the list +0.5, the first player strikes one more stage; like at MLG)

 

[Ussi]

@BPC i was answering proxy's question

 

[Browny]

* Stalling is banned.


Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

And from a blog I wrote a few days ago...

So how is planking with unbeatable aerials like MK’s not stalling? I would honestly like to know what constitutes this not being stalling. Unfortunately, if the only answer than anyone can come up with is that the other character can simply make an effort to attack them (unlike circle camping) and thus end the stall, you have proven my point I am about to make; the only player who makes planking not a stalling technique is the one who attacks them on the ledge.

Consider the two situations, a character like Marth on the stage while MK sits on the edge spamming uair etc and him vs a sonic using HA under the stage. In both situations, the MK/Sonic have put themselves in a highly advantageous position where attempting to hit them is very risky. Marth can quite easily go after both characters and hit them but still risks a possible gimp if he messes up. So Marth has 2 options, attack them or leave them. This leaves 4 situations;

1. MK planking/scrooging - Marth does nothing
2. MK planking/scrooging - Marth attacks
3. HA under the stage - Marth does nothing
4. HA under the stage - Marth attacks

As it stands, 1 and 2 are perfectly legal while 3-4 are banned. Now what I want to know is how 1 and 3 are different. So different in fact, that one tactic is legal while one gives you an outright DQ. Can anyone here prove that for as long as Marth refuses to attack in situation 1 and MK keeps on planking with his aerials, this is not stalling on the MK’s behalf? I’m afraid the answer to this question cannot be situation 2 (as in Marth is creating the stall, not MK) because in that case, that would render situation 4 legal. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the two. The argument that HA under the stage is done without intent of fighting and purely running down the clock is void for as long as situation 1 is legal, they are the same.

[...]

Finally to re-iterate my earlier point, think about question; ‘If Marth refuses to attack MK while planking, is the MK considered stalling?’ Is the answer to that question no? If it is, ‘If Marth refuses to attack Sonic while using HA under the stage, is the Sonic considered stalling?’

Id like to hear from the SBR what their opinion on this is. Whether Sonic using HA under the stage is actually banned under the stalling argument and at the same time if MK plaking with the other player making no effort to approach is considered stalling.

My above post is meaningless if Sonic using HA under the stage actually is legal, but then that begs the quesiton; what is stalling? chaingrabbing against a wall is the only one I can think of, the rule should be made specific.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@BPC i was answering proxy's question

I know, it fit my point nicely though.

 

[Mew2King]

Planking needs to not only be banned in Brawl, but also in Melee.

I am on West Coast and have been for a month now. I have played Forward, Axe, Taj, King, and LuninSpectre, using Jiggs and with planking after getting a % lead, and they all now agree that there should be a ledge grab rule in Melee.

Fortunately it is very easy, as at the end of the game stats there is "cliffhangers" which are the same as ledge grabs, and shows you how many ledge grabs you have.

if you don't believe me you can ask any of them yourself. LGR makes the game better and more competitive because fighting is encouraged. The only true reason anyone would oppose this is because they would rather ban metaknight instead and they hide behind the "it's unprofessional" idea to support it. The fact is the game is better with this rule and anyone that's not a ****** will not dispute it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

LGR doesn't necesarily prevent time-outs via planking. You can't plank a whole match but you can still plank like 3 minutes for a save win. You simply take the option away of planking the whole match but you don't actually do something about the main problem, which is having the option of being permanently safe.

If a character is really unattackable while planking then he breaks the "no stalling" rule and has to accept the consequences. Frame data proves that MK is not attackable while planking. Therefore he is stalling. Therefore he is breaking a rule.
So even if he doesn't plank "perfectly" the attempt to break a rule is still a punishable offense.
If a character is attackable while planking we don't have to do anything about it in the first place

We already have rules that stop planking, we just don't make right use of them yet.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The game is not automatically more competitive if it's less campy. :-/ It's merely (arguably) more fun. Is the tactic realistically beatable at the highest possible level of play? If not, why the hell ban it?

 

[Mr.-0]

The game is not automatically more competitive if it's less campy. :-/ It's merely (arguably) more fun. Is the tactic realistically beatable at the highest possible level of play? If not, why the hell ban it?

Are you talking to M2K or Gheb?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

M2K. Although in retrospect...

 

[Mr.-0]

M2K. Although in retrospect...

Did you just disagree with the best player in the game? How dare you. Shun. Do you hear me? SHUN. I'm not friends with you any longer, Church. Aw, whateves, I"ll just fix it for you.

FIXED VERSION:

Gheb. I was definitely talking to Gheb. I would never talk to M2K like that, for my mommy told me that I can only talk like that to kittens and babies. And to people who's names remind me of babies and kittens. I do not like babies and kittens.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The game is not automatically more competitive if it's less campy.

This. You said something good!

"Fun" is subjective, immeasurable, and completely extraneous to competitive validity.

 

[T-block]

This exact same logic should apply to almost any stage. While on some stages you have the issue of randomness (and in that case, it's really a question of "how much randomness do you want to permit"; pictochat's hazards appear randomly, but there is a set time between them and they do not repeat within 8 minutes, and Norfair's hazards have a pattern but the location and direction is, AFAIK, random-however, they have a long-*** startup time), many stages currently banned have no real legitimate reasoning.
Yoshi's Island: Melee? Don't give me that blastzone camping crap until you've tried beating it. I'm fairly sure it works. DDD can only CG a few characters up the walls (and AFAIK none of them are really viable anyways).
Luigi's Mansion? Have we really seen that this is that bad with our momentary metagame? So MK's nado wrecks everyone inside the house. Get out of the house, then wreck the house. See if that works for you.
PTAD? Have we ever seen actual results showing things that people keep claiming, like "characters with bad recoveries get completely destroyed" or "the cars are too good at punishing"? No, we haven't! I can imagine banning this stage in a game like Brawl- or Brawl+ where you can easily combo your opponent into the cars, providing a very stupid kill, but there are exceedingly few options to nail a safely-playing opponent in vBrawl and knock him into the cars.
Onett? The blastzone camping is consistently interrupted by the cars. Have we ever tested this?
Green Greens? You say "oh my god walls in the middle, unbeatable strategies". I say "prove it". Ook ****ing wrecked Mikehaze in a 90-10 matchup at MLG on that stage, a stage which is supposedly incredible for DDD. If there are really such unbeatable strategies on Green Greens, where's the proof? Where's the tournament evidence?

Pictochat: There is no set time between drawings. Where did you hear this?
Yoshi's Island Melee: Since when was Wario not viable? We're not even sure that the number of CG'able characters is actually limited to 6. There might be more if Dedede buffers correctly.
Luigi's Mansion: Tornado does not wreck everything inside the house... make smart use of techs and get-up options.

Get your facts straight.

@BPC i was answering proxy's question

lol

Don't worry... BPC will use any chance he gets to throw his points around =P

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Did you just disagree with the best player in the game? How dare you. Shun. Do you hear me? SHUN. I'm not friends with you any longer, Church. Aw, whateves, I"ll just fix it for you.

FIXED VERSION:

Gheb. I was definitely talking to Gheb. I would never talk to M2K like that, for my mommy told me that I can only talk like that to kittens and babies. And to people who's names remind me of babies and kittens. I do not like babies and kittens.

Jeez. In retrospect, calling M2K about anything he says about the overall metagame in melee: bad idea. But still, it's annoying how many people think that campier = less competitive. It's not. >.>

EDIT: @Tblock: I got that from the pictochat thread where all the hazards were listed, and it said that the time between each hazard was 13 seconds... And now I can't find said thread. Bizarre.
Wario I forgot about? Wario should not be getting grabbed. Period. If DDD can buffer it differently... Well, it needs testing, not an instant ban because of what "might" work there.
Well what is the bogeyman on Luigi's Mansion then?

 

[san.]

I think MK planking falls under degenerative gameplay rather than just camping.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that we should make the time limit 9:00 min. In matches against DDD and MK, I often find myself with two stocks at high percentage or one stock at low percentage with only 30 sec left on the clock. In the DDD MU, this is because it takes Diddy kong a long time to kill DDD and with Diddy's speed, it is really hard for DDD to land a kill move. In the MK MU, this is because once MK gets the lead, he doesn't have to approach(and they usually don't). This means that if we have to approach we usually take more damage than the MK. I feel the extra min could give us more time to plan our attacks better.

I am not saying that the only reason to change the rule set is to help out Diddy. There are probably more MUs that end in time simply because they don't have enough time. I only use Diddy competitively though so I can't really give you any real information on other MUs.

 

[Mr.-0]

I think that we should make the time limit 9:00 min. In matches against DDD and MK, I often find myself with two stocks at high percentage or one stock at low percentage with only 30 sec left on the clock. In the DDD MU, this is because it takes Diddy kong a long time to kill DDD and with Diddy's speed, it is really hard for DDD to land a kill move. In the MK MU, this is because once MK gets the lead, he doesn't have to approach(and they usually don't). This means that if we have to approach we usually take more damage than the MK. I feel the extra min could give us more time to plan our attacks better.

I am not saying that the only reason to change the rule set is to help out Diddy. There are probably more MUs that end in time simply because they don't have enough time. I only use Diddy competitively though so I can't really give you any real information on other MUs.

If two people play hecka campy than it's to be expected that they won't finish the match. And just because you have personal experience in the diddy vs d3 matchup that it takes a long time doesn't mean that it does at a high level of play. Personal preference or experiences should NEVER be included when discussing the ruleset. Wow, I sound like BPC.

And MK timing out is an issue already being discussed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Personal preference or experiences should NEVER be included when discussing the ruleset. Wow, I sound like BPC.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing...

 

[BBQTV]

im tired of people saying metaknight is broken when mario is a million times more broken and heres the proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0OFpyW47w

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If two people play hecka campy than it's to be expected that they won't finish the match. And just because you have personal experience in the diddy vs d3 matchup that it takes a long time doesn't mean that it does at a high level of play. Personal preference or experiences should NEVER be included when discussing the ruleset. Wow, I sound like BPC.

And MK timing out is an issue already being discussed.

I was playing with two of the best if not the best DDDs in the west coast(Commander Beef and CPU). If that isn't high level play, then I don't know what is.

 

[Mr.-0]

But are you any good? If you play campy as heck, than that's to be expected. Also, vids, or it never happened.

Edit: And BPC: IT'S A GREAT THING!!!!!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But are you any good? If you play campy as heck, than that's to be expected. Also, vids, or it never happened.

Edit: And BPC: IT'S A GREAT THING!!!!!

You can ask them if you don't believe me. Also, if I have the lead against a DDD, why the hell should I approach?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I thought CB played peach?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I thought CB played peach?

I think you're confusing him with King Beef

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Probably. King >>> Commander. :V

 

[AvaricePanda]

BPC, there is no set timings between drawings on Pictochat. Honestly all you have to do is turn on your Wii, go to the stage, and look at it.

I thought the CG problem on Yoshi's Island Melee was Pikachu, because IIRC he gets to f-throw CG a lot more characters to death.

 

[Rayquaza07]

norfair should be cp i rly dont think there is need for a vote it can be timed like brinstar and u dont die at 60 on it like brinstar and it gives us a stage to beat ics and diddy and falco on XD

 

[Ussi]

BPC, there is no set timings between drawings on Pictochat. Honestly all you have to do is turn on your Wii, go to the stage, and look at it.

I thought the CG problem on Yoshi's Island Melee was Pikachu, because IIRC he gets to f-throw CG a lot more characters to death.

This is true.. Pika can CG even more chars due to the slant

 

[-Vocal-]

BPC, there is no set timings between drawings on Pictochat. Honestly all you have to do is turn on your Wii, go to the stage, and look at it.

I thought the CG problem on Yoshi's Island Melee was Pikachu, because IIRC he gets to f-throw CG a lot more characters to death.

He's right. I think when people say 13 seconds that's just an average. The space in between transfomations can be as short as 5 seconds