Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[dlewis53]

Are you sure? Because it said if the DLC gives advantage over one who has not purchased it, then it might be banned.

Here's the full quote:

"The term "loot box" means an add-on transaction to an interactive digital entertainment product that in a randomized or partially randomized fashion unlocks a feature of the product; or adds to or enhances the entertainment value of the product; or allows the user to make 1 or more additional add-on transactions that the user could not have made without making the first add-on transaction; and the content of which is unknown to the user until after the user has made the first add-on transaction."

The key phrase there is the "in a randomized or partially randomized fashion", i.e. what lootboxes to my understanding are. Smash DLC is not randomized. We generally know what we're getting with them, and patches still exist.

The bill affects both lootboxes and pay-to-win transactions.

The bit that people should be concerned about regarding one of their definitions for pay-to-win transactions:
from the perspective of a reasonable user of the product, is a game featuring competition with other users, provides a user with a competitive advantage with respect to the game’s competitive aspects over users who do not make such a transaction

Smash, a game where multiplayer involves trying to beat other players, has been promoted with tournaments at E3, gets competitive tournaments sponsored by Nintendo and features DLC characters which can be argued to advantage players who own them, could be affected because of how the bill is worded.

I guess, but I still don't think we have too much to worry about, especially since I'm sure the people behind the tournaments make sure that all characters are available, plus again, patches can be done to help fix any potential issues.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Here's the full quote:

"The term "loot box" means an add-on transaction to an interactive digital entertainment product that in a randomized or partially randomized fashion unlocks a feature of the product; or adds to or enhances the entertainment value of the product; or allows the user to make 1 or more additional add-on transactions that the user could not have made without making the first add-on transaction; and the content of which is unknown to the user until after the user has made the first add-on transaction."

The key phrase there is the "in a randomized or partially randomized fashion", i.e. what lootboxes to my understanding are. Smash DLC is not randomized. We generally know what we're getting with them, and patches still exist.

You're looking at only half the bill.

They specifically define pay-to-win transactions seperatelly, as something else being targeted and excludes the random nature in its definition.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I honestly don't like the idea that certain characters or classes would be counted as pay2win, unless it's actually true in some situations.

Let me give an example:

-Let's say a Minecraft server sold full diamond gear. That's pay2win and obviously just jerks trying to scam kids.

-Then, you have a server that has a game with characters with some being donor-exclusive. Yes, those characters could be pay2win, but if they're balanced enough to where a player actually needs some skill in order to actually win, and you can see users who haven't bought a "rank" or the characters or whatever beat them and one of the unpaid classes or characters may even be considered overpowered, then I don't see a real issue.

It's also dumb because they can't really prove this being pay2win unless the average win/loss ratio for the character is absurdly high. Smash isn't even balanced 100% for competitive stuff, anyway, which is why some characters are considered bad for tournaments and stuff.

 

[CannonStreak]

I think the DLC won’t be affected by this new bill if it passes. By the way, has the company called EA done anything that the bill might forbid?

 

[thirsty-pocket]

I forget, did we ever get a release date for Joker beforehand, or did they just kind of drop him on us?
I ask this because I want to wait until 10 days before banjo comes to smash, and do a little bit of a countdown, beating One World a day, or perhaps Two Worlds a day 5 days beforehand, with grunty's furnace fun and the final battle on the final day.
I'm already in the middle of a slow going Banjo-Tooie playthrough, but with me, I don't think I could ever play that game enough.

 

[SneakyLink]

I forget, did we ever get a release date for Joker beforehand, or did they just kind of drop him on us?
I ask this because I want to wait until 10 days before banjo comes to smash, and do a little bit of a countdown, beating One World a day, or perhaps Two Worlds a day 5 days beforehand, with grunty's furnace fun and the final battle on the final day.
I'm already in the middle of a slow going Banjo-Tooie playthrough, but with me, I don't think I could ever play that game enough.

They shared a video detailing him and the update the day before his launch.

 

[Organization XIII]

S.
There are two characters who I had tied for number one and have supported since I got into the scene. One was Isaac and the other was the duo. To even get one of those characters was a dream come true. Nothing beats seeing a character you love come to Smash.
A.
Richter is from my favorite old school styled Castlevania so to see him join was incredible. I never even remotely supported him since no one in their right mind would think a Castlevania character other than Simon was getting into Smash but what a reveal. As far as I'm concerned Simon is the echo. K Rool and Ridley I didn't care for personally but I'm always excited to see characters the community asked for make it to Smash. It really shouldn't be as rare as it is but whatever. Good inclusions.
B.
Cool additions. Like the game like them. Joker would be higher as P5 is great but I wasn't a fan of DLC seemingly ignoring the ballot so I was super conflicted on his addition which is why he's b
C.
My couldn't care less additions. If any of them were gone from the next game I wouldn't care in the slightest. Echoes don't bother me as they as costumes given their own boxes and removing them wouldn't equate to more characters but I wouldn't miss them if they go
D.
Isabelle should still be an AT as far as I'm concerned. Her reveal being the most boring one ever didn't help either. It being after an abysmal wait made it even worse. Dark Samus I didn't want in this game because I freaking knew they'd make her an echo as soon as that was announced to be a thing. She is and likely going to stay that way. A shame but it's not the biggest deal.
D.
We don't need more Pokemon. "Oh but Pokemon is such a big series" I don't care. I'd rather a series is represented well than just get a bunch of characters because of sales. Sakurai reserving slots for this series is gross. If a new Pokemon is added in the future I hope it represents more aspects of the series instead of just a new gen happening. Like Mystery Dungeon was a thing give us a character based on that. A Pokemon Ranger could be weird but I'd be down. Just something better than this, please. I don't even hate the mon as it was my starter in Sun and UltraSun but wow he was a lackluster inclusion.
Z.
Literally the worst addition not just to Ultimate but in Smash period. Genuinely made me question if Sakurai needs to continue directing this series. Yes, he's fun but any character can be fun. Smash is a series where the characters who get in matter to people or can expose people to sides of Nintendo they never knew. Plant does neither. He just exists. He's not even inoffensive like echoes because they took actual time to make this a real thing. At least I know we can't get any worse than this.

 

[NintenRob]

I see tier list

S:
Absolutely fantastic, characters I actively wanted, beyond thrilled. Special mention of for reverting back to perfection design

A:
Really happy to have, I found both really hype inclusions, even if one is just an echo

B:
Pretty much a happy to have them, and I think they make sense, Hero sort borders this and the next one though

C:
I just find them uninteresting. Yeah I know makes sense but I have no connection to street fighter, and kinda hate Ryus input gimmick. And I'm still not a big fan of third parties getting more than one character, even just echoes. And Joker kinda annoys me

D:

E:

F:

GET OUT:
Sometimes I think about starting my game over, and specifically avoid unlocking this abomination of a bread dead choice. I hate everything about this Pokemon, and that was before it got into a smash. Doesn't help he's apparently masudas favourite Gen 7 Pokemon and we all know how much 'good' he's done for the franchise.

 

[dlewis53]

While that law definitely has some concerning things, thing is, it's not the law yet, so unless it DOES end up passing, we should be okay.

I forget, did we ever get a release date for Joker beforehand, or did they just kind of drop him on us?
I ask this because I want to wait until 10 days before banjo comes to smash, and do a little bit of a countdown, beating One World a day, or perhaps Two Worlds a day 5 days beforehand, with grunty's furnace fun and the final battle on the final day.
I'm already in the middle of a slow going Banjo-Tooie playthrough, but with me, I don't think I could ever play that game enough.

Yeah, they basically dropped him on us without any real warning. However, I do feel we may get a Smash direct that details both the Hero and Banjo & Kazooie and may give a bit of a more concrete release date for them.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

They shared a video detailing him and the update the day before his launch.

Bogus. I guess I'll just have to start a new Banjo Kazooie playthrough on the first day of fall. If I happen to beat the game before banjo comes to smash, I'll start Banjo-Tooie again. And failing that... I don't know. Is grunty's Revenge any good?

 

[NintenRob]

Bogus. I guess I'll just have to start a new Banjo Kazooie playthrough on the first day of fall. If I happen to beat the game before banjo comes to smash, I'll start Banjo-Tooie again. And failing that... I don't know. Is grunty's Revenge any good?

I enjoy Gruntys Revenge. The writing isn't as good, but it's pretty faithful to the Banjo Kazooie formula.

 

[Banjoisawesome2020]

I enjoy Gruntys Revenge. The writing isn't as good, but it's pretty faithful to the Banjo Kazooie formula.

Except, No Wonderwing music. Oh and no flying pads either.

 

[Organization XIII]

Is grunty's Revenge any good?

It's alright. I'd recommend it for anyone who needs more Banjo in their life. It's nothing special though just alright.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I liked Grunty's Revenge, though I don't believe I've ever actually beaten Grunty yet despite having the game since I was 4. My DS's R button is broken (it technically works but very little, requiring an annoying wait while holding the button only for it to fail after finally working or, in some cases like Mother 3, spam a screen on and off), and my GBA's screen is dim so it's kind of annoying too. Hoping to get a newer-model GBA soon.

I did get to the Grunty fight the last time I played it, but being unable to actually use the Talon Trot made it seem impossible to dodge one of the spells. I could just pop it into my current GBA but...meh.

I wonder if we'll get a Smash remix of any of the game's music.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly I've always found Rare's handheld efforts to be kind of uninspired. They've never really held my attention for too long.

Thier handheld stuff was obviously handled by a seperate D-team within Rare and not by the main teams who worked on the console games. I imagine that's the reason why Grunty's Revenge, despite being written as an interquel between Kazooie and Tooie, wasn't acknowledged at all in Nuts & Bolts' story. Grunty says at the end that "a three time loser she can't be!", even though if you count GR, it'd technically be the fourth time she lost lol

 

[Lycan Rex]

I'm not too worried about that bill. I doubt Nintendo will pull the plug on smash dlc this far into development.

Can you imagine the absolute **** storm that would unleash if nintendo was like, "so uh... banjo isn't happening cuz we're legally not allowed to do dlc. Sorry. Thanks for the $25 tho."

While it's not worded that well, it seems like the bill intends to go after randomized lootboxes. The likes of EA, and such.

 

[StormC]

For me it's like...

S Tier: OH MY ****ING GOD THEY MADE IT I CANNOT BELIEVE IT MY WILDEST DREAMS HAVE COME TRUE I LOVE YOU SAKURAI:
A Tier: Wow, this is a really awesome addition! They look so great! Can't wait to see more of them:
B Tier: Cool choice, they're neat and fun. Glad they got added:
C Tier: Neutral but I totally get why they're in the game:
D Tier: Ehhhh... whatever:

F Tier would be "oh god this is a terrible character" but none of the Ultimate newcomers reached that. I'm not sure any newcomer has... except

Some notes:

- took some warming up to; I was of course baffled at first, but overtime the absurdity of the situation won me over time. My initial reaction was probably close to F until over time I embraced the stupid thing and bumped it to a B-. It was a good reminder to not take Smash so seriously. Getting Joker and Banjo after definitely made me care less.
- I was skeptical about Castlevania representation in Smash (since I thought a playable character would be the least exciting thing about it unless it was Alucard), but having never played a Belmont game before, the trailer totally won me over with their cool moves, and got me to play their games. But even before I did play them, they were B-tier hype just based on how well done their trailer was.
- I'll admit I got attached to Erdrick during speculation and even hoped he would have had his chibi design. Sadly I find the vanilla 11 Hero the blandest of the four, and the reveal was definitely muted by the feeling that we might have gotten misled on the Banjo leak. Now we're past that, but it's hard to work past that initial feeling, lol.
- I don't play Animal Crossing, but I might have been a bit more hyped if she wasn't a semi-clone and the sole character in the September Direct with a very boring trailer. Otherwise I would have probably would have put her in C.
- As I said before, I played Persona 5 after the VGA reveal but I absolutely loved the game and I was already a Persona fan so I was pretty hyped all the same. Though the weird implementation of Arsene muted that a bit, all the Persona content was just overwhelming.
- I'm a more casual Metroid fan, but the insane hype and speculation over Ridley for the last ten years definitely contributed to my excitement; if he didn't have that legendary status in Smash fandom he would probably be a B-tier reveal, but it was nonetheless a fantastic, perfect reveal.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I have some fears that Banjo Kazooie might fall under the same fate as Captain Falcon and Ness years down the line; as someone known more for their appearances in Smash to the point that they might as well be considered Smash-original characters rather than protagonists of their own games.

Still, cameoing forever in future Smash games is certainly an improvement over the hell-limbo they've floated in for years.

 

[Vycoul]

Ranking newcomers are we? Guess I'll throw my opinion on the pile:

Spoiler: Newcomer ranking:

S+:
They easily get their own tier. For me, no character can compare.

S:
He was my most wanted first-party character, and my second most wanted overall. I considered K. Rool to be Smash's most glaring omission.

A+:
I've wanted a Dragon Quest rep since Brawl. Admittedly I've only played one game, (8) but I have a lot of respect for the series.

A:
Characters I didn't personally want, but I respect their series and think they make great additions.

B:
Solid characters, but not exciting.

C:
Eh. I don't care for them, and neither bring much to the table IMO. Even if they weren't Echos, they would have looked so similar to their respective characters that I don't think I'd rank either of them higher.

D:
Chrom is from a (IMO) grossly over-represented series, and is the embodiment of boring. He did have some fan demand though, I'll give him that.

F:
I have pretty big problems with these characters:

First, I actually think Piranha Plant is kind of cool. But its inclusion has aged terribly. After the humor and shock-value wore off, I'm left agreeing with the people who were initially upset. Passing up on real characters with fans for what amounts to a joke is a poor choice. One of the few that has been made in Ultimate.

As for Incineroar, it's simple: I think he is HIDEOUS. Seriously, I could do without this thing on my character select screen.
He also feels very forced. He wasn't terribly popular even within the Pokemon fanbase.

 

[TheCJBrine]

After listening to some Grunty's Revenge tracks on youtube to remind me of the music, I'd really like for some remixes of it. I don't expect straight ports because, y'know...GBA, though I guess they could get uncompressed versions.

Breegull Beach and Cliff Farm in particular, but the others are good too.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly appearing solely as playable characters in Smash isn't a bad way to go out.

It's a big reason why, despite loving Kid Icarus Uprising, I'm not too upset that we'll more than likely never see any kind of followup, because Pit, Palutena and Dark Pit still live on in Smash.

 

[NintenRob]

I learned that Gruntys Revenge didn't release in Japan so I don't expect any references to it, like at all.


Has there been any true western only references (that weren't done by the localisation) the only thing I can think of are some colours

 

[StormC]

I learned that Gruntys Revenge didn't release in Japan so I don't expect any references to it, like at all.


Has there been any true western only references (that weren't done by the localisation) the only thing I can think of are some colours

Does Sonic Boom from Sonic CD count?

 

[HyruleHero]

Well Im always up for a character rank list.

Spoiler: Ranked new additions

S:
Due to my large amount of Nostalgia and love for the franchise.
A:
Love the new villains, a necessary addition to a very protagonist roster. I put hero here. I've only played one DQ game DQ9, however when a game has you putting in over 200 hours I think its safe to say I enjoy the franchise.
B:
I play a lot of inkling but I haven't played splatoon so I put them in the middle. Simon and Joker are both unique and fun additions however I don't know much about their franchises.
C:
Haven't got any complaints about these characters however I don't think they were necessary additions to the game.
D:
Incineroar is the worst pokemon addition to the playable character selection. I have no love for this character especially seeing as their were better pokemon choices for the roster with potentially better movesets, like Decidueye.

I didn't rank echoes because they are just old characters reskinned although I do love Chrom

 

[DMTN]

We ranking newcomers?

S Tier:
Characters I have been wanting for years. It helps that Ridley is a character I really enjoy playing. He was truly worth the wait. Banjo was long overdue. He should have been in Melee, but the wait made the reveal even sweeter. Banjo in Smash is more than just a character. It's a collaboration between two competitors and the return of an era neglected by Nintendo for a long time. With Banjo in Smash, I'd say the roster is complete. Everyone else is just a bonus.

A Tier:
When Ridley was disconfirmed for Smash 4, I ended up supporting K. Rool. As soon as he received a Mii costume, I knew he was a lock for the next game. That being said, I was still surprised when he showed up at the August Direct. Unlike Ridley, I don't vibe much with K. Rool's moveset, but I still play him from time to time.
I didn't expect to like Simon at all. When he was first leaked, I was even a little annoyed. But when I saw him in action I was immediatedly convinced. Castlevania fits surprisingly well in Smash. I also think Simon has the best design in the game.

B Tier:
The idea of Incineroar in Smash was so unappealing, that he could only go up from there. I honestly really like his moveset and he has the best implementation of a counter move in my opinion.
Much like Incineroar, The Hero is a character I initially wasn't excited for. But the presentation of the DLC pack is very well done. I just hope the spells aren't random, because that might dock him a tier.
Ken is the only echo I care for. I'm absolutely terrible with him, but I still enjoy playing him.

C Tier:
Harmless characters that I don't really have an opinion on. The Inklings undeniably deserve to be there, but I have no attachment to them.

D Tier:
I like everything about the Persona DLC Pack... except Joker himself. It's weird. I really wanted to like him, but there just isn't a click. By bringing such an outlandish franchise to Smash, I expected Joker to be special. But he's just more of the same.

F Tier:
I honestly think Smash Ultimate has no bad inclusions, but these two barely made any impact. One of Ultimate's strongest points is presentation, but they really dropped the ball with Isabelle. That trailer did nothing good for her. Being a worse semi-clone of Villager is also unfortunate.
Piranha Plant just kinda exists. I cared enough to get him in Elite Smash, but stopped playing him afterwards. Joke characters like this are funny when they are revealed, but eventually the joke wears off. It also doesn't help that he's a strong contender for bottom tier.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

This is my newcomer tier list and I decided to use StormC's template just to be a good sport

My list goes from
S: Greatly Like
A: Like
B: Neutral
C: Dislike
D: Greatly Dislike

Spoiler: My newcomer tier list

Don't need to explain why they're on top. If you do then I'm not sure why you're on this thread.
I was genuinely pretty excited for King K. Rool and Richter, especially Richter because I didn't think he had a chance. I hate that he's an echo fighter but I'll be happy to call him the base character since Simon pulls off more moves from him than he does Simon.
Ridley was more like a "Hot damn, I didn't think Sakurai would put him in" moment. I think he's okay, nothing special to be honest.
Nothing much to say about Inkling, I've never played the game and It doesn't appeal to me
I was initially apathetic with Joker's announcement but I started watching a playthrough of Persona 5 on YouTube and now I think his inclusion is pretty cool. No PC or Switch version of Persona 5 so he stays exactly where he is.
Same with Joker.
Oh look, a row of Echo fighters barring Simon. Hope they bring something new to the tab- oh wait...
As soon as Piranha Plant was revealed, I was like "Oh no..." like I knew the horrors that would come ahead of time and I was correct, the Plant gang was formed and they will forever be my enemy. It's a good thing it's terrible character though.
Boy was that November 1st direct an absolute turkey. An Echo Fighter we saw coming a mile away, a long and tedious adventure mode, gimmicky, limiting spirits that people barely use and all that to bring along the worst looking starter of Gen 7. Sure he brings unique special moves but that's all he's got. I got really burned because I wanted Decidueye so imagine my disappointment when Sakurai said that he almost picked Decidueye. Torracat is way better than Incineroar.
Despite me greatly disliking Isabelle, I don't have much to say about her except her fanbase is annoying trying to make her look like a god when she is just a stupid dog who plays like Villager but worse.

 

[okamifire]

If that bill actually passes regarding DLC and determines that Smash DLC for whatever reason falls within the scope of an unfair advantage (the latter which seems unlikely anyway), all the DLC would probably already be released at that point anyway. The two options at that point would be:

A) Remove the content from the game and refund everybody. This seems absolutely absurd given the option of balancing the DLC character to a point they’re not considered pay to win.

B) Worst case, making all of the DLC free. The content is already there, and it’s no longer a pay to win situation if you dont have to pay for it. Because let’s face it, Nintendo and all of the companies involved want their character represented, if Nintendo would have to refund all of the purchases and remove content, at that point they’ve already lost the money but still made the content, so why not do anything you could to keep the content you worked so hard on in the game?

Again, I don’t even think they’d determine Smash DLC to be an unfair advantage, but Nintendo knows what it’s doing, I’m sure they’ll do everything they can to make sure all the DLC content they have makes it into the game, even if it becomes free DLC.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

If nothing else, you just know that people oppose the bill when it even gets Sony to play ball with Nintendo and Microsoft.

As someone who was mega-hyped about Cloud, I was a bit bummed about the backlash, but I kinda get it. Smash 4 was just a really weird roster that had a lot of weird picks that at the end felt kind of alienating to those of us who were hyped after Brawl because of all the classic, fan favorite characters being added. So after Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Kid Icarus, I guess not even a character as iconic as Cloud could stave off anime swordsman complaints.

I agree that it's past us now and brighter days are ahead. Smash 4 was disappointing but it was the stepping stone that led to Ultimate.



I'd say it's the difference between one-off FE characters that are primary protagonists in their game vs. one-off Zelda characters that are glorified NPCs like the Champions. The comparison would make more sense if we were talking about adding more Links.

And more to the point, it'd be accurate to say that Zelda hasn't actually gotten any noteworthy newcomers since Brawl, given that the number of Links hasn't changed. Having three Links at the same time isn't really what I would call oversaturation, just reuniting who came before.

Does Sonic Boom from Sonic CD count?

Haven't they used Toot Toot Sonic Warrior in the Japanese versions?

 

[Vector Victor]

Oh yes, I was very annoyed at Kid Icarus too. Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem were the only franchises to get newcomers, get echo fighters, and get new stages on both versions of the game, while every other franchise apart from Mario either got nothing or had to face cuts. It really felt like special treatment.
Also, the fact that their art style is so similar, and Shulk being there too, created the resentment against anime-style characters in general. So much that there was even backlash against Cloud, of all characters.
Thinking back, that was a really weird batch of newcomers. It felt like they had no direction at all, contrary to Ultimate.
Luckily, it's all behind now. They fixed almost everything. Though it's pretty crazy how they went from extremely tone-deaf to extremely receptive in the span of one game.



I didn't take part in any of it, I was just watching from afar and commenting on it with my small circle on Telegram. We laughed a lot through all of it, lol.
The aggressiveness on both sides was not good, but I admit I started to live it all pretty viscerally in the last few days, it was really becoming an "us VS them". And I was a box theorist! But my heart was with the people.
I think I even came out from all of that a little wiser about the way different social groups interact. No joke, some aspects of it were really eye-opening. Nobody was angry at the insiders because the leak was not true, they were angry at the insiders just because they wanted to be treated with respect, instead of seeing the insiders go "ah yeah, your hopes and dreams are probably not happening despite all the good evidence because I say so" with a 2-minute video.



Honestly, I think just the fact that Smash has no ruleset officially adopted by Nintendo should be enough.
Smash is, formally, still presented as a party game, and it will be treated as such.

It was the little things that added up that made me annoyed at KI. Bumping it up to the original 8 in the opening video (and replacing Yoshi), classic mode borrowing heavily from Uprising, all the trophies, all the Smaah Run enemies (although this was explained as them trying to save time by reusing content so it makes sense), almost all of their Smash Run enemies were annoying or tedious to fight, Palutena getting 12 unique moves for some reason, getting Dark Pit (considered at the time to be the worst character addition), Palutena's Guidances (which were disliked as it focused more on the KI characters instead the Smash characters than Snake's codecs), even their ATs seem to have more work done on them.

Even something as simple and harmless as a character clip montage had this issue. Every character got 2 clips, except for Pit who had to get 4 clips.

I know Sakurai worked on Uprising, but they were pushing KI way too much, especially to other bigger series that were still waiting for improvements.

FE backlash didn't happen by this point. Robin and Lucina were liked upon reveal due to Awakening being popular, Lucina being a justified echo addition, Robin finally being a different FE addition and his trailer destroying Gematsu ('Enjoy our good friend Shulk!') who at that point pretty much strangled all Smash speculation talk as it would also go back to 'Sorry, but your most wanted isn't being added. They're not on Gematsu's list.' It was Corrin that was the tipping point for FE dislike, being a true ad character, the only first party DLC, another sword user with a counter and following Cloud. Even Sakurai was hesitant on adding him. Everything was stacked against Corrin.


As for Grinch, things could have been better if Gameexplain just did their usual 20 minute analysis video on the hoax instead of a 2 minute handwave calling it fake with 'evidence' that even Team Fake said was weak and poor. The fact they downplayed the hoax, were very hostile and dismissed it so uncharacteristically made people think they were trying to bury it and that it was real. Not that this excuses the Smash fandoms very poor and downright idiotic behavior. This event was a disaster on all sides.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well, KI has gotten almost bupkis attention outside the Guidances this time, to the point that people are actually worried that Medusa won't become a newcomer. Granted, any series that gets as much attention as Mario or Pokémon in terms of content typically gets called out for "bias", so it's impossible to please everyone.

But yeah, the Grinch incident was not fun at all after a while, and kickstarted the fandom's Orwellian movement of opposing dissenters that try to go against people related to Vergeben or "realistic and grounded" text leaks like the 5Chan one, as a result. finally gave us some relief from that nonsense for the time being.

 

[3BitSaurus]

The thing with Fire Emblem is that unlike Pokémon (which is a cultural phenomenon on its own), FE's cast grew in Smash because Nintendo (not Sakurai, Nintendo) really wanted to push the series. A new character is expected every game, mostly from the latest addition to the franchise, while Zelda, a way bigger series both in history and sales, doesn't have any new characters since Brawl (and even then, it was , who is kind of a substitute for , so Zelda doesn't get any really different characters since Melee), despite character popularity. The fact that some of the FE characters play similarly doesn't help, really.

EDIT: It's not that I think any series "deserves" more, I'm mostly just giving an example of why people became so pissed with FE in general. Thought my post could have sounded weird, especially with the contents below.

In regards to the post-Grinch times... I'm just glad we can focus on something other than SE and Microsoft, or that arguments are no longer solely based on sales and current relevancy. I'm in this very good spot where I believe, for example, that Kyo Kusanagi from KOF stands a chance due to SNK's policy with cameos in other fighting games, the fact that he's one of the last really popular SNK characters to not appear on a crossover yet and Sakurai being a bit of a fan of KOF and taking some notes from that series when making Smash.

I can say all of that and no one can bash me with the "muh relevancy" hammer, because that hammer has lost its head two weeks ago. So now it's just a stick.

If we're still doing newcomer tiers:

S: Basically, "my most wanted got in" tier. Enough said.

A: Joker was a very pleasant surprise and the other two were long-time fan requests that I was glad were fulfilled

B: Kinda neutral. Splatoon was a no-brainer to me and Dragon Quest, while not necessarily my cup of tea (I still plan to try XI) could add interesting stuff to Smash.

C: Eh, I wish she was more different and had different AC mechanics from Villager's, but what's done is done.

D: While I like Incineroar on his own merits, I can't deny Pokémon's promotion-only picks have kinda soured me for future newcomers, especially since I have some old mons as wanted characters. As for the rest, most of them were no-brainer Echoes to me. Not particularly excited, but I do wish that they made more characters with the Echo concept, like Octolings and Shadow. It could have been a way to make people more open to clones, but... yeah.

E: ... I just think this was a very poor choice, even as a joke character. Even worse was the fact that this was meant to somehow help convince us to buy the game early (?). While I do think the playstyle is somewhat creative, the way this character was introduced just soured it for me. If I hadn't bought the game early enough to get it for free, I might not have it at all.

 

[TheZoologist]

Might as well put my two cents in to my rankings of the Smash Ultimate newcomers if everyone else is doing it lol

S: Literally the only characters I've ever truly wanted in Super Smash Bros. Period. A lot of the newcomers in this game and previous iterations were very hype, but nothing compared to Banjo & Kazooie. When that Jiggy dropped, I was losing my damn mind, my buddies who were watching the Direct couldn't believe it, they knew how much these characters getting in meant to me, especially after watching all the previous Smash Ultimate directs and E3 from last year! So yeah, the most hyped reveal of all time for me.

A: Characters I've always wanted and I can't believe they got in! While not quite the hype that Banjo & Kazooie gave, they were still amazing reveals and I know so many people were excited for their inclusions. Ridley & K. Rool are some of the most iconic Nintendo villains, and we always need more villains and boss characters so I was very happy with their inclusion and Simon was actually my second most-wanted third party newcomer after Banjo & Kazooie, since Castlevania was so big in the NES era, so I was super hyped to see him make it in.

B: The Inklings being revealed alongside Smash Ultimate way back last year in March was an awesome reveal as well. They seemed like natural inclusions given their popularity and I love the Splatoon series' style. I only wish the likes of Spring Man/Ribbon Girl could've made it in as playable characters. New IP with a fighting schtick no less, it seems criminal they didn't make it in. Maybe next Smash. The Hero on the other hand was someone I wasn't sure about, and when he dropped at the beginning of E3 this year, I was a bit concerned but surprised to see it was someone new and not Erdrick contrary to leaks. However, all doubts were cast aside when I saw Eleven the Luminary paired up with Eight, Solo, and Erdrick himself and given RPG Magic Commands. That combined with an amazing CG trailer (even after Sakurai said NOT to expect any new CG trailers for DLC characters) and Banjo & Kazooie revealed at the end made me very happy with Dragon Quest's inclusion.

C: Definitely not the most glamorous picks for Smash Ultimate, but I was happy to see Isabelle join the fray. I know she's immensely popular and I think she's super cute. Plus she actually has a great play style more akin to Snake surprisingly than Villager. Sadly, I'm not a huge fan of Echo Fighters, and not really been a fan of clones since Melee. But I get why they're included and Ken IS the original Echo Fighter in video game history and Simon owes a lot to Richter. I was honestly more salty at Ken and Incineroar's reveal confirmed the Grinch Leak was a fake. But Ken is actually super fun to play with and he actually does play differently from Ryu so its not too big a deal. Plus stacking Echo Fighters means you can basically use them as alts for the originals.

D: Yeah, these were definitely the least hype characters to me for Smash Ultimate. The good news is they actually are all super fun to play with and offer something new and unique. But it's more when and how they were revealed that left me salty. Incineroar killed the Grinch Leak, Piranha Plant was a huge WTF moment that made me salty it got in before Banjo & Kazooie, and Joker and Persona seemed like practically everything I can't stand about anime-style characters and once again got revealed at a time I thought Banjo & Kazooie would get revealed since it was the 20th anniversary of their Japan release at the VGA games literally the day before Smash Ultimate released. But with Banjo & Kazooie in now, all these characters are fine additions and I'm actually really enjoying Joker now. But I still can't stand that yet ANOTHER Marth clone got in, and actually he's a clone of a clone. Lame! (Yeah I know Roy is more his own character this game and I love him, but seriously, enough with the blue-haired FE swordsmen!)

This batch of newcomers is FAR superior to the Sm4sh roster in my opinion. No waiting around through slow-*** veteran reveals since everyone was confirmed to return and no disappointments when it came to fan inclusions like Greninja, Palutena, Dark Pit, Lucina, and *ughhhhh* Corrin. Almost every reveal this game was like, oh yeah, that makes sense! Of course, I am super biased now since after all these years, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate finally FINALLY gave me the characters I've always wanted.

 

[Dinoman96]

Thinking back, that was a really weird batch of newcomers. It felt like they had no direction at all, contrary to Ultimate.

I think there was a pretty clear direction: They were focusing more on recent games and characters.

Sakurai locked down Smash 4's roster back in early 2012 and ergo the lineup was mostly focused games that were prominent on the Wii and 3DS at the time. Games like Wii Fit, Pokemon X & Y, Xenoblade Chronicles, Super Mario Galaxy, Animal Crossing: City Folk, Punch-Out!! Wii, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Kid Icarus Uprising. And then Fire Emblem Fates for DLC. Duck Hunt was pretty much the lone first party character in Smash 4 that wasn't based on a recent game, as he was the game's "surprise character".

 

[NintenRob]

Does Sonic Boom from Sonic CD count?

*does a quick Google Search and changes game version to Japanese*

That's... Actually very interesting. I had no idea that song never had a Japanese release. I wonder what drove them to include it? I wonder if perhaps it was originally a request by Sega, as I wouldn't be surprised if they're a bit controlling of the music. Sonic only has remix and Bayonetta only has the two instrumentals.

Although then there's Persona, but that's more Atlas, and isn't Sonic anyway.

 

[ze9]

I think there was a pretty clear direction: They were focusing more on recent games and characters.

Sakurai locked down Smash 4's roster back in early 2012 and ergo the lineup was mostly focused games that were prominent on the Wii and 3DS at the time. Games like Wii Fit, Pokemon X & Y, Xenoblade Chronicles, Super Mario Galaxy, Animal Crossing: City Folk, Punch-Out!! Wii, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Kid Icarus Uprising. And then Fire Emblem Fates for DLC. Duck Hunt was pretty much the lone first party character in Smash 4 that wasn't based on a recent game, as he was the game's "surprise character".

Yes, that was definitely the direction.
What I meant to say is that the newcomer line-up didn't make much sense internally. Like, there was no synergy between them to create a strong, varied and universally (well, as much as possible) appealing line-up.
A lot of them came from games with similar art styles, for one (while we lost some of the more colorful characters from Brawl).
Then, there was no balance at all between legacy but still prominent characters and strictly recent characters. There wasn't a single heavy newcomer. No villain (except kinda for Bowser Jr., but eh). Almost everyone had a similar body shape. Similar characterizations, too, a lot of them were portrayed as stoic or "badass" and not much else.

Brawl and even Ultimate, instead, made a point to have a lot of variety within their selections. They both struck a good balance between fan-favorites and recent characters, they provided a good variety of art styles, they had a good balance between series...
Smash 4 instead really felt like they grabbed some recent characters at random, sticked a gimmick in their fighiting style, and threw them in with no rhyme or reason. If you weren't a fan of a few specific games you really had no fun at all during Smash 4.
Like, Smash 4 could have easily thrown in characters like Ridley, Dixie Kong, or Bandana Dee. They had all been recently prominent, while still being fan-favorites and they could have provided some more visual variety to the roster. But they had no concern for that at all...

Wii U was kind of a weird time for Nintendo in general, though. They weren't sure if they wanted to cater to casual players or to hardcore players, they made a lot of weird choices and more often than not they ended up not appealing to either crowd (hence the Wii U flopping).
Smash 4's roster is just one of the many testaments of that indecision.

 

[NintenRob]

You won't see me criticize Smash 3DS/WiiU roster, I got my top 2 most wanted, Rosalina and Greninja, and both had fare few saying they had no chance.


I remember a lot of people were convinced that the Pokemon lineup would just be the Brawl 4 + Mewtwo. And I mean a lot

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

I'd order them like this if I had to and for each tier it's most hype to least from left to right.

S: ,
A:,,
B:,,,
C:,/,
D:,

Regardless of ranking however, this is the best roster of newcomers to me...though I'm heavily biased for a few reasons. All of us in this thread are I'd wager.
In terms of Wii U / 3DS, the newcomers I love are , , , , and . Brawl would be , , , , and . Melee , , and .
Yeah, I could have used the stock icons from those respective games but I like Ultimate's simplistic style.

 

[CosmicQuark]

My Rankings...

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

The base game left a lot to be desired in terms of newcomers--they were much lower on the list before playing them, but still not great. The characters for DLC have been much better (well, characters in the Fighter's Pass), and probably because the only interesting characters left are third party (with the exceptions of Dixie, Bandana Dee, Isaac). Now, with Banjo & Kazooie, it feels complete.

 

[TewnLeenk]

My 3 most wanted characters since even before the Brawl days have always been King K Rool, Ridley and Banjo Kazooie, so Sakurai truly blessed me with this game.

My other most wanted was Skull Kid.... pour one out for the Assist boy.

 

[Vycoul]

Smash 4 (rightfully) gets a lot of flak for inflating the Fire Emblem roster to ridiculous proportions.
But a lot of the time l think Smash 4 doesn't get nearly enough credit for the other fantastic additions with broad appeal that it brought us.

Megaman, Pacman, Ryu, and Cloud are major icons of videogame history. And having them in the same game as Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Sonic is still mind-blowing. Their inclusion's significance can't be understated.

Little Mac was nearly exclusively desired and requested by Western fans.

Villager was a big win for the (much larger than people usually realize) Animal Crossing fanbase.

Made even more noteworthy due to Sakurai's previous statements on the series being viewed by some as a perma-deconfirmation of an AC fighter.
[edit] I could have sworn that Sakurai commented that any potential Animal Crossing character would "not fit" in Smash back in the Brawl days. But I can't find any such statement. Looks like all comments on Animal Crossing were made after Villager's reveal.