Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[SSSnake]

Spoiler

do you think there will be a tier list for balanced brawl?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Spoiler

do you think there will be a tier list for balanced brawl?

Spoiler

Yes I do...

 

[G_Man]

I think it's impossible to make the game completly balanced... but the aim was to eliminate the worst match ups. If there are no match ups worse than 60:40, i would think Balanced Brawl is well done.

 

[Ussi]

well, that is the goal... BBrawl devs already know that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon probably has a few 65/35s out of his favor. Give or take a mu here and there, a lot of Ike's hard matchups are going to be looking like Ganon's as well, no surprise that it's probably vs campy characters.

G&W at least 65/35s Kirby as well by design. It's just the fact that Kirby's recovery and trap evasion options against G&W are some of the worst in the entire game by a ridiculous margin, and that's something that hasn't changed in BBrawl. Which is one of the reasons why I advocated increasing the damage of Kirby's F-tilt, which is also an important move in the Marth matchup.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I never undesrtood why Kirby-Zelda MU was that high on Zelda's side at first...

Now, Nayru Kirby is a bit too broken...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Free lightning kicks on his low recovery lol?

 

[Laos Oman]

So... Any ETA for the PAL version? Brawl hasn't seen much use lately, I could use a bit of freshness.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Yes, when is the PAL version coming out? D:>

Oh, and I had a interesting little buff for Ganondorf. You know his Dair? How about when you do that to someone and it connects Ganon gets a vertical boost equivalent to 2/3rds of the velocity of the person being meteored? This means that Ganon can knock someone off the stage, jump off the stage, past where he'd be able to recover normally, meteor the enemy because Ganon is a ******* like that and then use the momentum he gets to get back up on the stage? It'd be kinda like a footstool, really.

Just a thought.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The implicit removal of thunderstomping, as well as pretty much all on-stage combo options out of down aerial, would make that a Ganondorf nerf. His current recovery isn't the greatest, but it's workable. In terms of chasing people riskily, he already can do something like that by going for Dark Dive grabs (up special) instead of down aerial. I know Dark Dive wasn't really the greatest offensive move in standard Brawl, but trust me, it's been buffed a whole lot so now it's a major part of Ganon's game.

As per the PAL version, we've had a few internal chats that bring up the following points.

-We're waiting on a new version of Riivolution. We cannot say much in this regard, but we do know the authors are busy on a few levels.

-We have to figure out .pac conversion which is going to be tough. If Dantarion's converter program comes out, that would be great, but the situation to me suggests we should not count on it. This is likely doable internally owing to Thinkaman having actual programming abilities, but I can't give an ETA.

So I can't give much information on that front, but I can say that we haven't forgotten it.

Also, about Kirby vs G&W, I'm just going to point out that the original, specific thought about Kirby's Stone buff was to help against G&W. One of the plus sides Kirby has in this matchup is that G&W always has to be careful going for juggles against him or really in general chasing him from below due to the threat of Stone which will happily plow through either nair or uair. There's a lot more going on in that matchup that doesn't make me think Kirby is any sort of free win for G&W, but I thought that bit of logic might be interesting.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Well, yeah, guess it really doesn't work.

I DO have a american CD here, but obviously, that was with a freeloader which nintendo broke, so that's not a option, I guess.

 

[Lino971]

Hi,

about the .pac converter, I know Cos made something acting like one.
It scan NTSC and PAL pacs and copy the change done in NTSC to PAL.
Dunno if this will help but here is the link, it's in the PAL code database thread.
Also I'd like to know if there is a PAL.gct to use, even with the NTSC fighter pacs (I don't mind playing without sound)

 

[Lino971]

Me again,

just wanted to say that I plan on porting all the NTSC pacs to PAL and upload them for everyone.

Here is BBrawl Fitganon ported to PAL: http://www.mediafire.com/?zionqnqwniz

I don't know if I should post here or create a new thread for that.. Just tell me what's best

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, about Kirby vs G&W, I'm just going to point out that the original, specific thought about Kirby's Stone buff was to help against G&W. One of the plus sides Kirby has in this matchup is that G&W always has to be careful going for juggles against him or really in general chasing him from below due to the threat of Stone which will happily plow through either nair or uair. There's a lot more going on in that matchup that doesn't make me think Kirby is any sort of free win for G&W, but I thought that bit of logic might be interesting.

I can see why you would think that, but in actual practice, this buff only sees application in situational edgeguards. It's basically a worse version of G&W's D-air for edgeguard purposes with more commitment and startup, and against some less versatile recoveries, it does see some OK use, although D-airing is usually the preferable option. You can punish his break out animation on reaction as well, so there really is nothing stopping G&W from simply sitting 2 feet outside of that small hitbox of Kirby's Down-B and waiting until he's FORCED to come out of it. That zone is also the perfect spot for spacing aerials on Kirby in general, so most of the time Down-B isn't even close to Kirby's best option for breaking pressure.

Since in MOST situations Kirby is going to get more heavily punished for using Down-B as opposed to say...trying to fish his way past G&W with an airdodge mixed in with the occasional hammer shenanigans for punishing poorly spaced N-airs, it really doesn't say much about Kirby's options for getting out of G&W's juggles when he's extremely easy to read on all of his options that would beat G&W's aerials. His "better" aerials just get destroyed when G&W is juggling him, and when G&W edgeguards him, he pretty much has no options when G&W just chooses blind aggression offstage. His jumps suck for avoiding pressure, his aerials don't have the priority to save him, and he's very light and easily KOed. Recovering low OR high is not an option for Kirby, the former gets destroyed be D-air and ledgedrop B-air, the latter gets destroyed by more juggling. In summation, Kirby's recovery is utterly ripped to pieces by G&W.

And G&W's footies, pokes, walls, and approaches are just plain better than Kirby's. Kirby just has some retreating spacing, an F-tilt here and there to keep him in check, and baiting into F-smash basically, while G&W can mix up the hell out of Kirby with Jab and D-tilt footsies, grab pressure, and various forms of aerial rushdown. Now if you buffed Kirby's F-tilt, that would be a meaningful buff in this matchup (and his other bad matchups as well) since it's one of his few tools that he can use to keep G&W and other characters in check, since he has very few other safe moves that he can rely on (besides retreating B-air).

And when you consider how vulnerable Kirby is to techchase combos, AND juggles, getting grabbed really really sucks for Kirby.

There's probably more videos of inexperienced G&W players getting destroyed by clearly superior Kirby players than good G&W players absolutely wrecking the matchup correctly, but both me and Hylian (he beat Chudat) agree that Kirby gets hard countered by G&W.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

I'm wondering, since I find this kind of stuff really interesting, what stops Kirby from recovering? Does G&W's B attack really screw Kirby over?

 

[Steeler]

well, there isn't much Kirby can do about GW's fair, the hitbox is large, disjointed, and lingers. kirby's lack of air speed means that uair juggling is effective...gw can hit kirby out of his up b pretty easily. and i guess chef is okay but kirby is a pretty small character so it's not that effective.

i think a kirby ftilt buff would be great btw.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm wondering, since I find this kind of stuff really interesting, what stops Kirby from recovering? Does G&W's B attack really screw Kirby over?

Kirby is kinda slow, and easy for G&W to chase. Furthermore, Kirby's jumps are very easy to read since they don't give him a lot of height. Combined with the fact that G&W punishes airdodges offstage really easily, the fact none of Kirby's aerials can really compete with G&W's disjoints, and the fact that he's unable to sweetspot the ledge instantly, his recovery is by far the easiest in the game for G&W to edgeguard.

I'd probably go so far to say Kirby's recovery is average to below average, although it's really just a few characters that are able to pick apart Kirby's recovery with extreme ease. G&W and Metaknight don't really care if Kirby tries to stall offstage and can do pretty much whatever they want when Kirby is there and still make it back onstage, although I would say G&W especially in BBrawl (due to MK's Up-B nerf) is the best character at demonstrating Kirby's flaws in his recovery.

Probably the other way to help the matchup is by letting Kirby sweetspot the ledge automatically with his SideB.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've seen Kirby CPUs just Fair when jumping. Isn't the great thing but it somehow helps him while trying recovering horizontaly.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've seen Kirby CPUs just Fair when jumping. Isn't the great thing but it somehow helps him while trying recovering horizontaly.

It doesn't give a momentum boost (like Fox's), so it shouldn't make a difference.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's most likely for the mixup..... But w/e
I don't know many things about Kirby anyways...

 

[Thinkaman]

We're drawing significantly closer to a PAL release; I stayed up all night on the stupid thing. (Blame Yoshi and Pikachu's .pacs for misbehaving--got them under control though.)

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Good stuff, can;t wait to play it.

@G&W -

Perhaps giving Side B a boost would help? How about being able to cancel the UP-B at the apex? It means that if G&W jumps at Kirby can upB his way out and then cancel it so he doesn't slash downwards into oblivion. Obviously, he couldn't upB again, but perhaps it would let you still keep jumping and maybe do aerials. It'd probably give Kirby some combo power as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

Kirby has a special fall animation (for some reason?) but we can't exactly conjure up an DDD-like animation for cancelling up-b into it even if we wanted to.

Edit: AA pointed out Copy powers are why it exists. Doh!

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Oh well.

Giving side B momentum is feasible though, right?

 

[Mit]

Does Kirby really that much recovery help? O_o Of all characters with poor recoveries, Kirby is not usually one that comes to mind.

So, some people can wall out his up-b. Why are you having to use it so often in tough matchups? @_@ He's got, what, four air jumps, and high aerial maneuverability. Recover a bit higher if having issues? Hover around the ledge until you can sweetspot it with up-b or recover onstage? Go under the level?

I'm sure I'm simplifying things tremendously, but compared to all the characters that had buffs to their recoveries, Kirby doesn't seem to come close to needing help.

 

[Thinkaman]

Kirby isn't really that mobile in the air, but I agree that I don't buy into the Kirby recovery crisis. I'm only aware of giving 3 things momentum in BBrawl (Jet Hammer, Ivysaur dair (changed from default), and Nayru's Love), all of which had very specific reasons and motivation that do not interfere with any existing use of the move.

Kirby aerial Hammer is already a TERRIFIC move. It's very important and valuable to Kirby. Screwing around with how it controls and behaves is a no-no.

 

[BardicKnowledge]

Is there any chance of the main downloads page having a separate download for those of us who have homebrew Wiis and want to keep out custom stages? Or at least specific instructions about what needs to be extracted where?

Ideally, you guys have a homebrew program that will auto-update your SD card with the correct files similar to the one that Brawl+ has, but I don't know if that's possible.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

I never thought that Kirby had major problems with his recovery either. As I said, I'm just really interested in balance discussion like that, and I like throwing out suggestions just to keep those discussions going?

I have a question though. How does the super armor that you find in the falcon pawnch and stuff work? When it said he had 8% super armor while Pawnching, I assume he could take 8% damage before it was interrupted. However, I seen him take far more damage and yet it did not interrupt the pawnch. So yeah, how does it work then?

 

[Steeler]

you can force kirby into special fall out of his own up b by water gunning him or something as soon as he lands

 

[Thinkaman]

I have a question though. How does the super armor that you find in the falcon pawnch and stuff work? When it said he had 8% super armor while Pawnching, I assume he could take 8% damage before it was interrupted. However, I seen him take far more damage and yet it did not interrupt the pawnch. So yeah, how does it work then?

It's single hit, not cumulative. Just like Snake up-b.

you can force kirby into special fall out of his own up b by water gunning him or something as soon as he lands

Water Gun, more like Wotter Gun... yes/no?

 

[Steeler]

more like smugleaf

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

It's single hit, not cumulative. Just like Snake up-b.

So, oh, so he can take only 1 hit, and if the hit is below 8% it's keeps going until it passes that?

 

[dansal]

I think for falcon punch its 25 super armor, so you'd need to deal 25 damage or more in one hit to bypass it.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

I think for falcon punch its 25 super armor, so you'd need to deal 25 damage or more in one hit to bypass it.

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The idea is that Falcon Punch beats almost everything with very bulky armor, but throwing it out to beat higher level charging smashes or silly stuff like Warlock Punch isn't going to work.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Yeah, I always thought the Falcon punch desperately needed some protection, nice to see that you people had the same idea :D

 

[DSP]

Sorry if I'm bothering
Any updates on the PAL front? I really love your project from what I've seen so far, but I (and lots of other Euro smashers) can't play it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry if I'm bothering
Any updates on the PAL front? I really love your project from what I've seen so far, but I (and lots of other Euro smashers) can't play it.

Extremely soon, it looks like. Progress has been sound.

Also, chat on the site should be working again.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Thinkaman is credit to team!

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Also, why does no one ever talk on the chat? I know people are on, but they don't answer.