Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[Uncreative719]

Thank you all for your help. I got it working now.

 

[Sleek Media]

Post your solution for future users.

 

[Mit]

It's amazing how little talk there is of characters going on. Although I don't think it's a bad thing... I think it's because everyone is enjoying this release so much.

I myself have been really enjoying Fox and Wolf. As a Falcon user, I can't get enough of speed characters, so the transition to Fox has been pretty natural. It's awesome how many options he has at any given moment, including air stalling whenever he wants to (with down-b). Wolf isn't quite as fast, but still has plenty of fast moves, and his side-b cancel is very fun. Sucks that two fun characters were so unviable in vBrawl due to some of the dumbest reasons.

Those are the only two characters I've really picked up, but there are a ton of other characters I'll play just for the fun of it. So much better than vBrawl

 

[Sleek Media]

Well, most of my characters had fairly minor changes. If you ask me, it's the removal of chaingrabs and balancing of top tier spam that makes BB so great.

That said, I don't see the novelty of mystery gift wearing off anytime soon. It's definitely my favorite addition. I also really like what they did with Ice Climbers. Instead of going for infinites, it's all about bringing double the pain, which is how it should be. The main thing is that it's just great to be able to play whatever characters you want, and not worry too much about ridiculous matchup imbalances.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Zelda/Sheik is amazingly OP. Discuss.

 

[Mit]

I know nothing about Sheik and don't even know how the jab-cancels should be used. It sounds very good to me though, and Zelda is pretty monstrous.

Certain characters can still do fairly well against them, but I can see their combo being pretty overpowered in certain matchups.

I can't say I'd be particularly irked if I saw them at the top of some tier lists though That's what will need to happen for them to see some nerfs, though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Z/S is odd now.

Sheik deals damage as a beast, (and not sure, but I think she can jab cancel into Dsmash. That means, a decent killer move).

Zelda..... well..... as a main, all can I say she has changed a lot. Considering regular BBrawl's change output, her changes are just TOO MUCH.....

 

[Ussi]

The problem with the idea of Sheik and Zelda is that One character is played for 80-90% of the time if you use one to damage and one to Kill.

the only way to go to the heart of design would to make Sheik unable to damage as well as Zelda after a certain % but not kill % so that Zelda has to do the finishing touches before finishing the opponent off.

in theory at least

 

[Sarcastic Horse]

Zelda's smash moves come out of the Nayru's Love so fast! It is such a good entry against anyone with a projectile! Spamming Din's Fire is great and using Din's fire when coming back from off the edge is unreal as well. Zelda has improved tremendously and she plays much more aggressively now. All of my friends call her the new metaknight lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I am going to be trying more to avoid injecting in these conversations when unnecessary (let you guys explore for yourselves more), but to prevent anyone from jumping on anyone else, I'm going to point out softly that Din's Fire being a spammable projectile is an uncommon experience among higher level players. It's pretty slow, and there are a lot of things that beat it (most notably it can be clashed out with normal attacks, but being an energy projectile comes up in a few matchups as well). The only change Din's Fire received was the removal of the helpless fall state in the air in any case.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Given some time, I think my friend TonyGuacamole would turn Sheik into a top tier character, and given that Zelda isn't useless anymore, yeah. Sheik/Zelda probably is pretty scary.

Probably top tier...I still think Wolf is probably the best, but Sheik/Zelda could easily be right behind him.

Oh yes, and I'm not kidding that Sheik alone could be a top tier character. Even though F-tilt lock was nerfed, not getting locked by other dumb stuff is fair compensation. And like really...even though she lost GR U-smash shenanigans, the Rapid Jab cancel is pretty ridiculously darn powerful coming from a frame 2 Jab, and her camping is like comparable in effectiveness to Falco's. Like seriously.

So yeah since she lost weaknesses that made certain matchups unbearable, and since she still outcamps most of the cast and can reliably combo into a finisher, Sheik is VERY good. She kinda has the problem Wolf used to have where her recovery is pretty subpar, which is part of the reason why I think Wolf is better. Oh yeah and Wolf's D-smash kills really early and is stupidly hard to punish.

 

[Fuujin]

Z/S is odd now.

Sheik deals damage as a beast, (and not sure, but I think she can jab cancel into Dsmash. That means, a decent killer move).

Zelda..... well..... as a main, all can I say she has changed a lot. Considering regular BBrawl's change output, her changes are just TOO MUCH.....

If you count killing at 150 a kill move then I suppose its great.

Zelda's smash moves come out of the Nayru's Love so fast! It is such a good entry against anyone with a projectile! Spamming Din's Fire is great and using Din's fire when coming back from off the edge is unreal as well. Zelda has improved tremendously and she plays much more aggressively now. All of my friends call her the new metaknight lol

I CRINGE at comments like these...so many...things that make me rage....
I know she's rarely used but it's sad to see this much of a misunderstanding about her...

Ive said a million times the Naryus doesn't help her worse MUs, maybe Snake but if every non Zelda user thinks it's fine theres nothing I can do.

 

[Fuujin]

Given some time, I think my friend TonyGuacamole would turn Sheik into a top tier character, and given that Zelda isn't useless anymore, yeah. Sheik/Zelda probably is pretty scary.

Probably top tier...I still think Wolf is probably the best, but Sheik/Zelda could easily be right behind him.

Oh yes, and I'm not kidding that Sheik alone could be a top tier character. Even though F-tilt lock was nerfed, not getting locked by other dumb stuff is fair compensation. And like really...even though she lost GR U-smash shenanigans, the Rapid Jab cancel is pretty ridiculously darn powerful coming from a frame 2 Jab, and her camping is like comparable in effectiveness to Falco's. Like seriously.

So yeah since she lost weaknesses that made certain matchups unbearable, and since she still outcamps most of the cast and can reliably combo into a finisher, Sheik is VERY good. She kinda has the problem Wolf used to have where her recovery is pretty subpar, which is part of the reason why I think Wolf is better. Oh yeah and Wolf's D-smash kills really early and is stupidly hard to punish.

First off she's defiantly worse off with out her tilt lock....
You honestly think a jab cancel not only replaces her tilt lock but brings her to top tier?

2nd I hope you're trollin comparing needles to Falco's blaster.
She hardly out camps half the cast...

3rd Honestly what match ups have gotten better for her other than Pikachu Possible GnW?
I'd like one to be named, Snakes tilts still destroy her and she cant kill him for ****.
MK still gimps her easily, she can't get near Olimar, Peach racks up damage just as fast as she does and can now kill her easier, Sonic's spring pushes the MU closer to even due to her low recovery, Mario/Samus defiantly aren't even with her anymore, Marth and Lucario still out range her, not to mention Lucario got his attacks buffed. She still can't combo Luigi.
She also can't kill Wolf for **** with his new recovery and can't even rack damage on him without the tilt lock, same with Ike.
Oh yeah and a no grab release Wario makes thing even worse for that MU.

Sure they gave her nifty little bonuses but none of that makes up for a lock that did a good 30-50 damage on some characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I never said needles were as good as Falco's blasters, more like a combination of her ridiculous mobility and options to punish from distance make her defensive game really comparably good to Falco's.

I dunno, I don't think Snake comes close to destroying Sheik in VANILLA Brawl. I'm pretty dead sure she beats Snake in this game since she can easily kill Snake by baiting into her Up-B (juggling with it is safe and effective), and Snake lost a lot of his unfair KO power.

Yeeeah Metaknight still kinda sucks probably due to the whole gimp thing, although Metaknight really hates that chain and needles can really stop a lot of his approaches.

lol Olimar. Sheik's camping > Olimar's camping, and she's fast enough to pressure Olimar before he can shieldgrab.

Yeah, Peach is probably top tier.

Sheik beats Mario and Samus slightly in vanilla. Yeah she does a bit worse against them, but she probably doesn't lose to them.

lol Marth and Lucario outrange everyone...not everyone can make it REALLY UNSAFE for those characters to throw out moves. Vs Lucario...yeah...that matchup is probably hella stupid. Vs Marth...I'm willing to bet that mu is even.

lol Luigi. Just camp him all day and he really can't do anything about it. Then edgeguard him. She beats Luigi in vanilla and still beats him in this game.

Getting tilt locked hardly matters except if you're a space animal...what is more important is Sheik's ridiculous zoning game and the fact she still has reliable setups into other moves. She was a very good character in standard Brawl due to those qualities (beating Falco is a bonus), and since the rapid jab cancel ensures she still has reliable setups into other moves...

 

[Steeler]

tilt locking matters in a lot more matchups than just spacies...

 

[Mit]

Yeah, I feel like her tilt lock wasn't crucial to her playstyle. I've watched Ankoku play a lot, and he'll take advantage of it in certain matchups, but there are plenty of stocks where he isn't able to tilt lock very long at all, and instead racks damage using a number of different methods. Accordingly, I feel like the jab cancel allows for a ton more options and opens up her very fast game even more.

I also think Ankoku would make Sheik atleast high tier. I think pro Link's would make Link top tier though

 

[shigoth]

So i've been trying for the past 3 hours to get this to work. Trying different things but this just won't seem to load. So i figured it's time to ask for help. Can anybody here give me an explanation on how to USB load bbrawl? I used to be able to USB load Brawl+ using CFG and Ocarina just fine. Seems like i need to be doing something else here. I tried loading brawl with ocarina turned off and whatnot. But gecko only seems to look for the disc? Which contradicts the whole 'usb' loading concept.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Shigoth

 

[Mit]

What USB Loader are you using? I set it up using USB Loader GX. You'll run into the issue of its version of Ocarina not supporting code files with more than 256 lines. I circumvented this by the 'double gct method', which if you search for on these forums (use Google or something) you'll find. It's pretty easy. USB Loader loads a small code file when it starts, and as soon as the game boots up, the code launches and executes another code file located elsewhere, that can support more than 256 lines.

 

[shigoth]

Well Brawl+ also had the 256+ lines issue but it used to load fine. I'm using configurable USB loader. I will do a google search on the double gct method. I'm assuming that that method works with ocarina and therefor removes the need to use gecko ingame? I'll go google that double gct thing now. I'll be back if i have any more questions or if i get stuck somewhere along the line.

 

[Mit]

Hmmm, it looks like they use a more recent version of Gecko and it should be okay. Here's something to try.

Doesn't Gecko look for code files in a "codes" folder on root of the SD card? I recall seeing that the smashstack-enabled BBrawl set of files had it somewhere else like DATA/Codes/ or something. Perhaps just make a codes directory on the root of the SD card, put the .gct in there, and simply try booting it up with the loader and ocarina enabled.

 

[shigoth]

Yeah! That's the first solution i tried hahaa Seemed like a logical fix to me at the time aswell. When i do that i just get a black screen. No strap-screen at all. So i'm guessing that's due to some code in the .gct file which isn't prebootable?

 

[Mit]

Well, it should just load the code and not have to go to any screen, and not have to go load the codes manually through gecko. StackSmash is really just supposed to be used by people who don't have homebrew installed and are playing from the physical disc. I think your solution lies in getting the code file to load like any other game would. It's weird to me that it doesn't work just like loading Brawl+'s .gct would. Perhaps they did something specific to load Brawl+ stuff :\

Well yeah, double .gct worked for me. USB Loader GX would just near explode before, but then I used it and everything was fine. Here's the post I referenced: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7025153&postcount=197

 

[shigoth]

Thanks for all the help mit. I figured it out eventually Hahaha after some digging through your double .gct posts i realized that loading brawl+ through a usb loader works through the snapshot method. I did the same thing for Bbrawl a sec ago and now it works fine. I just need to crack the .gct open now to add the .csp's code in which for some reason won't show up. But that's no biggy.

 

[Nakihito]

I dunno, I don't think Snake comes close to destroying Sheik in VANILLA Brawl. I'm pretty dead sure she beats Snake in this game since she can easily kill Snake by baiting into her Up-B (juggling with it is safe and effective), and Snake lost a lot of his unfair KO power.

...

Yeah, Peach is probably top tier.

...

lol Marth and Lucario outrange everyone...not everyone can make it REALLY UNSAFE for those characters to throw out moves. Vs Lucario...yeah...that matchup is probably hella stupid. Vs Marth...I'm willing to bet that mu is even.

...

Getting tilt locked hardly matters except if you're a space animal...what is more important is Sheik's ridiculous zoning game and the fact she still has reliable setups into other moves. She was a very good character in standard Brawl due to those qualities (beating Falco is a bonus), and since the rapid jab cancel ensures she still has reliable setups into other moves...

Sheik's camping is a lot more like Lucario's camping except where Lucario has range, Sheik has speed. Neither character sits at the edge of the stage throwing out projectiles like Falco. Rather, they're both better off using their projectiles to stop approaches or to augment their pokes.

I'd imagine that Sheik v. Snake is pretty even. Of course Snake will kill earlier, but once off the ground, Sheik can cover every option Snake has like Marth or Metaknight. Her needles also prevent Snake from taking full advantage of his grenades and her speed allows her to get past his ftilt relatively easily. My guess would be 50/50 or 55/45 Sheik.

I agree that Peach is easily top tier, however, she's still hard countered by Marth and probably looses 60:40 to Lucario. I'd say she's probably about as well balanced as she can get considering you'd need to completely change the characters that give her the worst time.

Sheik v. Marth was considered even or slightly in Marth's favor in vanilla. Aside from the super jab canceling now, I don't think the match up has really changed. Marth still tries to zone Sheik with jab, ftilt, fair, and nair. Sheik still forces him to approach with needles and tries to get past his sword with her speed. Its actually relatively similar to the Lucario match up except Sheik's trouble with killing hinders her a lot more than it otherwise would. I'd say 50/50 for Marth v. Sheik and 60/40 or so for Lucario v. Sheik.

Shifting focus here, I've found Ike to still suffer from the same problems as before (excluding nair suicides). There are still too many characters that out class him in too many fields. I checked out the Brawl- version of Ike and when I just consider him with only the changes to his bair, jab, ftilt, and dtilt, I think he would be quite balanced in BBrawl. His bair is sped up to auto-cancel in a short hop, his jab has less cool down and gives him more/better jab cancel options, his ftilt is still relatively slow on start up, but has cool down and knock back similar to vSnake's ftilt, and his dtilt is actually useful because it has lower start up and cool down.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno about Ike, Renegade and I talked a lot, and honestly, he has really good reasons as to why Ike is decent, and it's pretty hard to argue against him when he's destroying a lot of players with the new Ike. Although honestly, I will point out it is in part due to some matchup and character inexperience with the changes...like he said Ike beat ROB or when neutral or something because Holy's ROB couldn't kill Ike and then Ike could juggle ROB a lot with his N-air. Then I noticed that Holy never used D-throw or U-throw...obvious example of character and matchup inexperience.

But as I recall, Ike can do two N-airs in fullhop, which means he is actually allowed to juggle and do aerial mixups, which is by far what his biggest problem in vBrawl was anyway. And characters pretty much have to interrupt or powershield the N-air to punish the shorthopped autocanceled one if they don't use a projectile.

I really don't think Ike is going to be the most prominent threat ever...but if Renegade keeps destroying good players, then I dunno what to say. Besides that Ike could really use extra power on his Dash attack. I think he can still B-throw into it? I think it's worth noting that Renegade thinks that Snake is the best character, and he was hyping Snake's Jab combo a lot for being more reliable on spotdodge. I dunno...

Yeah speaking of ROB, I think ROB is still a bit overlooked, but I think he's clearly one of the better characters. His D-throw is still one of the best trap setups in the game. At kill percents in training mode, D-throw N-air registers a consecutive hit, which means its a trap that cannot be jumped out of. Considering how N-air has a lot of priority and ***** airdodges....ROB is pretty legit at scoring KOs.

 

[Steeler]

ike can actually do nair -> fair in a fullhop with buffering.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, something tells me that's a bit much...although honestly...he probably needs that.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's frame perfect on flat ground, and I suspect stages like Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Lylat Cruise could make it tricky. Ike has to buffer the nair as he jumps and then buffer the fair out of the ending of the nair. The fair will hit the frame before Ike lands, and he then suffers the full landing lag of the fair.

 

[Meru.]

I agree that Peach is easily top tier, however, she's still hard countered by Marth and probably looses 60:40 to Lucario. I'd say she's probably about as well balanced as she can get considering you'd need to completely change the characters that give her the worst time.

Martha has never hard-countered Peach (^^). I highly doubt he hard-counters her. The match-up is controversial in vBrawl, some say it's even, others stick with the 6-4, and the 55-45 ratio is also regularly thrown around. Has the mach-up changed that much into his favor?

Lucario? Idk. The match-up was considered around even in vBrawl.

 

[hotgarbage]

Has the mach-up changed that much into his favor?

Nah, Marth's only relevant change in the matchup is that his fair does less damage. Meanwhile peach does more damage with bair, kills earlier with fsmash, and has an easier time gimping with nair. Plus there's peach bomber shenanigans for whatever that's worth. The matchup is just fine now I'd say.

 

[Steeler]

AA i'm guessing you guys intentionally set nair's IASA frame to allow for that? i have no problem with it, it's not really a very good walling technique since there is so much cooldown/startup between the nair and fair...it's easy juggle bait for players that know to watch for it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, that's not exactly the thing I was thinking about. It's that the huge IASA window means that Ike can just basically N-air at blindspots with relative impunity and then jump away to reset spacing. QD if he needs to escape, do other shenanigans as necessary.

It just looks really dumb, but I guess it works.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, I feel like her tilt lock wasn't crucial to her playstyle. I've watched Ankoku play a lot, and he'll take advantage of it in certain matchups, but there are plenty of stocks where he isn't able to tilt lock very long at all, and instead racks damage using a number of different methods. Accordingly, I feel like the jab cancel allows for a ton more options and opens up her very fast game even more.

I also think Ankoku would make Sheik atleast high tier. I think pro Link's would make Link top tier though

*namesearch*

I tilt lock any character possible. I use different methods out of necessity, not because they are stronger options than a tilt lock. If Sheik's tilt lock is outright removed, her options better be given improvements accordingly - I have a hard enough time finding openings against characters with good aerial mobility and/or disjointed range, and removing a guaranteed damage setup is big, whether you might think so or not.

Also, I don't think I'm in any way a high tier player. Go watch someone good like Light or NEO.


By the way, on vBrawl matchups, Sheik vs Snake is closer to even than Sheik vs Marth, in my opinion.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Although tilt lock was removed, ~14% damage is warranteed on every character with only 2 hits.
It may seems very little, but in the long run is very significant, specially on the matchups where landing any Ftilt is really hard.



btw, Ankoku, you're just a legend, you may can give BBrawl a try =P

 

[Mit]

*namesearch*

I tilt lock any character possible. I use different methods out of necessity, not because they are stronger options than a tilt lock. If Sheik's tilt lock is outright removed, her options better be given improvements accordingly - I have a hard enough time finding openings against characters with good aerial mobility and/or disjointed range, and removing a guaranteed damage setup is big, whether you might think so or not.

Also, I don't think I'm in any way a high tier player. Go watch someone good like Light or NEO.


By the way, on vBrawl matchups, Sheik vs Snake is closer to even than Sheik vs Marth, in my opinion.

Maybe that's what it is, I commented that after watching a set of yours with Omniswell's Wario Probably not too easy to get a tilt lock in that matchup.

Jab-canceling seems like it'd open up tons of new things though. Something that'd probably change her metagame, actually. Would need to be looked in to. Wonder if it'll ever happen :\ I know the southeast Michigan scene isn't about to try BBrawl -.-

 

[jk8yone]

I tried out balanced Brawl (I believe i downloaded version 2 but could be wrong) two weeks ago and loved it, simply loved it. But something happened to my SD card and I lost the info. So I re-downloaded it. I selected Pokemon Trainer and I got Ivysaur right off the bat. When I tried to use his up B, I noticed I still fell into "helpless state". I remember playing it as him and using his Up B without "helpless state" kicking in. I also remember reading about it . But then I searched for it, and could not find it anywhere. Was this true in version one and not in version two?

 

[Steeler]

yeah, it was true in version one but was taken out of version two. down air was adjusted to allow ivysaur to cancel the animation early and maintain horizontal momentum.

 

[Mit]

Yeah, instead use Ivysaur's dair as a glide to increase horizontal recovery distance before trying to grab at the ledge.

It was a bit buggy in v1 anyways. If you did that weird animation where they tether to the ledge but it doesn't stick (it just kind of bounces all the way back) you would still go into helpless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In theory Sheik is amazing because she can Jab cancel to D-smash, and if she keeps D-smash fresh, it's a viable kill move. At kinda high percents, but still...it's an option that's easy to get off.

 

[Zankoku]

Maybe that's what it is, I commented that after watching a set of yours with Omniswell's Wario Probably not too easy to get a tilt lock in that matchup.

I don't tilt lock in that matchup because it's literally impossible to. I'm forced to end it after two or three tilts.