Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[Thinkaman]

Also, why does no one ever talk on the chat? I know people are on, but they don't answer.

You've literally missed me by less than a couple minutes at least 3 times.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kirby's recovery is still one of the easiest in the game to edgeguard for a few characters who like 65/35 him as a result.

Nobody gets edgeguarded nearly as badly by like G&W and Metaknight. Besides like...Link, Ganon, and maybe Bowser (who REALLY needs a recovery buff more than Link). His recovery options against those two characters are just among the worst in the game by far, which is one of the reasons why he's pretty much hard countered into oblivion by them. They can deal with his stalling, spacing, and his high/low recovery options on reaction very easily, and his light weight makes him get killed easily as well (more important against G&W especially).

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Bowser doesn't really need that recovery by the looks of it, considering the fact that's he extremely heavy and has a bad-*** F-Smash along with all his other buffs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser being extremely heavy doesn't mean much when he's easily comboed in a game where there are very few combos, and when he's one of those characters who is prone to taking like 60 damage for attempting to get back on stage. He has like no chance of recovering against Mario who gimps Bowser's Up-B with the Cape like it's nothing, which it pretty much is for the most part.

Similarly it's very easy for a lot of characters, even Ganondorf, to cover his high and low recovery options and punish them. And I mentioned Ganondorf since he basically goes even with Bowser in vBrawl for the fact alone that Bowser's recovery is one of the worst in the game by far.

At any rate though, Bowser's matchups are much worse than they should be, and it's because his high and low recovery options are absolutely awful against the entire cast. Specifically it gets nasty if his opponent has a gimp move that is easy to land, such as Mario's Cape for instance, or if they have a really powerful offstage finisher like how Ganon does. Either way Bowser has no business recovering unscathed against any character as it stands due to how awful his Up-B is, which gives him by far the worst low recovery in the game, and the lag on his Up-B and inability to really deal with juggles makes his high recovery balls as well.

Mario probably 65/35s Bowser (Bowser can't tank Mario's KO power in this game and he's VERY easy for Mario to kill with Smashes or via gimps), Ganon beats Bowser like around 55/45 in this game imo (Ganon's D-tilt and F-air buffs pretty much give him what he needs to make Bowser's life miserable). I don't care to address many more matchups, but I'm willing to bet none of his matchups against the better characters are that good since his combination of weaknesses makes him a much more fragile character than his playstyle would suggest.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

The only real problem I have is adding the mystery gift thing. Adding luck into games always fails, even if it doesn't come up much. Also, I was hoping that the luck-based attacks in Brawl were dealt with or something. Getting 9 hammered is lame, and it's also annoying when you want to launch a Waddle Doo but can't. I think just some Wario fart-like mechanic would be perfect.

 

[Lino971]

The only real problem I have is adding the mystery gift thing. Adding luck into games always fails, even if it doesn't come up much. Also, I was hoping that the luck-based attacks in Brawl were dealt with or something. Getting 9 hammered is lame, and it's also annoying when you want to launch a Waddle Doo but can't. I think just some Wario fart-like mechanic would be perfect.

I was thinking exactly the same.

IMO it'll be great if there wasn't any luck based attacks/specials in BBrawl.

Maybe making those ability going in the same order every time would do.

like: DDD using his side special 4+ times -> waddle dee > waddle doo > gordo > waddle dee again >etc..

or G&W using his 10+ times -> 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 1 >etc..

I don't know if this is even possible, I'm just giving my thougths

 

[deepseadiva]

Hey look guys, it's Brawl's soul!

*stomps repeatedly*

 

[Ussi]

I was thinking exactly the same.

IMO it'll be great if there wasn't any luck based attacks/specials in BBrawl.

Maybe making those ability going in the same order every time would do.

like: DDD using his side special 4+ times -> waddle dee > waddle doo > gordo > waddle dee again >etc..

or G&W using his 10+ times -> 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 1 >etc..

I don't know if this is even possible, I'm just giving my thougths

That would be worse :S G&W would get easy free kills.. just uair juggle with side Bs every now and then till 8 then unleash 9 when you can... and DDD would have a reliable killing projectile

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Hey look guys, it's Brawl's soul!

*stomps repeatedly*

Apparently, 3 luck-based attacks makes up what is fun about Brawl. Not, you know, famous characters from many various universes duking it out in many different stages with a completely original fighter engine which is easy to learn yet hard to master while making tribute to all the characters and their respective universes. No, RNGs are what give Brawl soul.



Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

[dansal]

Those attacks really aren't random. The player initiates them, and hence you can predict if they're going for that attack or special ability and answer with a counter/faster attack/grab or whatever.

Tripping isn't initiated by a player so it can't be predicted, same thing with items.

I guess what i'm saying is that i'm fine with randomized attacks because they're still attacks, and I can plan ahead for them.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

The problem I have with luck-based attacks is that you, the character with the luck-based attack,, can not plan for it. Let's say I want a Waddle Doo out. Well, I can't, because there's a low chance of it happening. So I miss the oppurtunity to make Waddle Doo effective. Rage.

But then, next time, a Waddle Doo does come out at the right time. I should be happy, right? Well, I am, but the problem is that I still can't rely on the attack, which means that I don't bother getting a strategy from it, which makes it just another projectile. That's boring.

But if there was a system wich meant that you could plan for it, because there is a definate way of making it happen, that's far better. As I said, something like a Wario fart system (Obviously getting a gordo would involve a ungodly amount of time not using side-B, it means that it's not as if you throw out Gordo's for the hell of it.) would be good.

 

[dansal]

Well talk to thinkaman he's the coder.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Well, I'll discuss it with him on the chat, if possible.

 

[dansal]

One thing to remember is that thinkaman and amazing ampharos are balancing by character matchup, so be prepared with an explanation as to how those changes would benefit those character's worst matchups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

All the luck based attacks can be powershielded on reaction and are generally unsafe on block. I've powershielded misfires and I once powershielded like 3 Gordos that happened within 6 SideB tosses lol.

But Mystery Gift instead has retardedly dumb startup lag instead. And Mystery Gift isn't actually random. There is in fact a predictable formula for it, but the only thing that it guarantees is that every other item is a smoke ball...as I recall.

Realistically the only time she can use it is against slow recoveries or when she kills something (vertically preferably).

It's not a huge matchup changer...but I will agree I find it unnecessary and lame lol.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The chat has been down for me for several days now. It's really pretty annoying.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luck isn't nearly as bad in games as the hype would lead you to believe. Peach's turnips are still the best luck based move in the game, and the way they play out helps the game in a way only randomness could. When Peach is being left alone, she is cycling turnips. Odds are, if she only gets a little free time, she doesn't get anything too dangerous (normal turnips are still good, but that's probably about all she gets). If you leave her alone for a while, she probably gets a Beam Sword or a Bob-Omb, and then you are really in trouble. However, when she's pulling those turnips, there's always a sense of urgency since her next one could always be that Beam Sword. Of course, if she does get it, it's not the end of the world, and with certain kinds of smart counterplay, you can even turn it against her (seize the Beam Sword for yourself!). It's just a local advantage to her. The amount of randomness in overall game results the turnips introduce, as a purely anecdotal statement, is very small. I have never seen a better player lose to a worse player because the worse player was a lucky Peach.

The other random moves are fairly insignificant in comparison. Luigi's Green Missile is just a gamble with huge risk to Luigi so it's really not even worth it to go for. Mr. Game & Watch's Judgment Hammer is only really practical if you're willing to give up guaranteed punishes, and you're choosing to play some pretty lousy odds at that. You see videos of UTD Zac winning on a lucky #9, but if you really watch what he's doing, you see he gives up a lot just for that chance. Jigglypuff's Mystery Gift is largely a much inferior version of turnips that helps her in a few interesting ways. All Gordos really do for King Dedede is force the opponent to respect his lousy projectile; I think I speak for most players in that if Gordos just didn't exist or were predictable that I'd have no respect for him throwing Waddle Dees and would happily risk getting hit for petty damage for a chance to get my offense going. Olimars have to play odds with what pikmin colors they are pulling, and they have to react to dynamic situations based on what they have. In the long run, Olimar goes through so many pikmin in a game that the random pikmin he pulls at any time aren't a big deal, but local situations that wouldn't feasibly come up do come up with the random distribution (like how you play having 4 purples out matters even if over the course of the match you don't have an unusually high number of purples).

Stage randomness is much the same way. The game is better because stages like PictoChat have random sequences, and stages are even better because you can compare good stages and bad stages and really see the difference in character of the random events. On PictoChat, the randomness doesn't change match results all that much by nature of volatility, but it does add an extra requirement of adaptability to players. Losing because it drew something bad on top of you is something people complain about but almost never happens and is avoidable anyway. Losing because you weren't prepared to strategically position yourself among a variety of different platform layouts that might emerge does actually happen, and I think it's just enhancing the depth of the game and rewarding a broader skillset. Then you have a bad stage like WarioWare Inc. that shows us players getting massive power-ups for free, and you see matches frequently decided for reasons like "he got a Star and I didn't". You can't form a dynamic strategy to handle it because the only real stage-specific strategy that involves the randomness is how hard to try on any given game, and whether trying on a game is a good idea or not is only something you know after the fact. If you took 30% to win the game and got a Star, it was probably worth it enough that it might make you win by itself, but if you got nothing it wasn't worth it at all and very easily could have made you lose.

So yeah, randomness isn't the devil you may believe it to be when used in a responsible design way. We haven't really increased the amount of randomness in the game in any meaningful way Jigglypuff's Mystery Gift is the only random thing we added, and honestly removing tripping from a dash is orders of magnitude more significant to the amount of randomness in a game (by the way, tripping was bad, but it wasn't really *that* bad). I do maintain that the general level of randomness the game has is not bad for the game, and removing all random elements from the game would overall do more harm than good. The main thing is that every random element still in the game (except on a few stages we recommend to be banned or with random item spawns on) is something the player can form a strategy around and that does way more to introduce new nuances to gameplay and broaden the skillset the game rewards than to increase the variance in match results.

I could also go into the matchup stuff as mentioned, but this post is kinda epic length already. I'll just address the Mystery Gift since that's our addition and not just something we chose to leave alone though Thinkaman has said it before. It's mostly not a very big deal, but it does help her against characters like Mr. Game & Watch she really can't pressure as well as everyone else or who might try disjointed camping strategies against her. Making an opportunity to safely taunt is a fair bit easier than making an opportunity to get off a highly damaging series of attacks against her worst matchups, and it widens her approach options a bit. Jigglypuff also, more than any other character, has a very large number of bad moves. I might go so far as to say every grounded move she has other than dash attack and grab is mediocre at best, and several of them are just horrible (ftilt and dtilt, looking at you). Then of course you have Sing which is one of the worst specials in the game... Improving her myriad of terrible moves wouldn't even fit her playstyle and would probably be bad for the game, but her having less variety in her moveset than everyone else makes her uniquely susceptible to being shut down by a limited number of characters who have good answers to her unusually small toolset. Adding another viable option, even if it's hardly at the top of her moveset, increases her safety blanket a bit.

To make a bit of a remark about the balance implications of removing tripping as well just for kicks, I'll say that we did actually seriously discuss whether removing it was responsible in initial development and considered the balance implications. The conclusion was that for the most part tripping didn't affect the balance of the game that much, that it was fairly obnoxious to players for obvious reasons with annoying players usually being a bad idea, and that all of the highest ground mobility characters were low tier in the first place and certainly wouldn't mind running around being a bit safer. Sonic in particular I think had to think about tripping more than everyone else since exploiting his running is the heart of his game, but Fox and Captain Falcon also just had to be more careful than they should have had to be in general and couldn't take advantage of their mobility in low-payout situations routinely which didn't really benefit the game mostly because they weren't good regardless. Thus we did away with tripping, but even that wasn't just a casual decision.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Before I say anything, well done, smash boards. You've all replied intelligently apart from one utterly inane comment, but that's inevitable. I think I'll like it here.

Anyway, enough of that. The way I see it, (And keep in mind that my favourite stage is Port town, with WarioWare second, and then Final Destination for the music. Also, keep in mind that I don't consider the luck in this game to be anywhere near gamebreaking.) stages with luck are majorly different than characters with luck. Not bothering with stages is nothing really. Not bothering with characters are something else.

As I said, the luck that factors into moves isn't as much a problem for the opposition as it is for the actual character using the move, since he can't plan for it. The reason this mod is so good as it unlocks the proper potential of all the moves. Obviously, some playtesting and balancing would be done, but being able to work your way towards getting a gordo? Getting the explosion green missle? Letting Olimar players plan what pikmin they want because they know the steps to getting the one they want? That'd be pretty **** awesome.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Before I say anything, well done, smash boards. You've all replied intelligently apart from one utterly inane comment, but that's inevitable. I think I'll like it here.

Anyway, enough of that. The way I see it, (And keep in mind that my favourite stage is Port town, with WarioWare second, and then Final Destination for the music. Also, keep in mind that I don't consider the luck in this game to be anywhere near gamebreaking.) stages with luck are majorly different than characters with luck. Not bothering with stages is nothing really. Not bothering with characters are something else.

As I said, the luck that factors into moves isn't as much a problem for the opposition as it is for the actual character using the move, since he can't plan for it. The reason this mod is so good as it unlocks the proper potential of all the moves. Obviously, some playtesting and balancing would be done, but being able to work your way towards getting a gordo? Getting the explosion green missle? Letting Olimar players plan what pikmin they want because they know the steps to getting the one they want? That'd be pretty **** awesome.

Hey look guys, it's Brawl's soul!

*stomps repeatedly*

Meno... thanks for saying what I was thinking.

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Now hold on, please explain to me the bit where a few luck-based attacks totally make up the soul of Brawl. No, really, I'm struggling to think of why on Earth that would be the case.

 

[Thinkaman]

11:18:16 FinalDoomGuy: Hello?
11:24:07 Thinkaman: hi
11:24:29 :: FinalDoomGuy has left talkinator

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Balanced Brawl has three main goals:​

1. Increase Overall Character Balance
2. Remove Infinites and Inescapable Lockdowns
3. Increase Stage Viability​

I don't see removing randomness in this.

 

[Thinkaman]

So, randomness's significance is way overrated. A lot of people are used to approaching randomness from a standpoint of a tourney ruleset, in which one's only interaction with randomness is to seek and destroy. In reality, randomness is a very important tool in game design that lots of people have spilled tons of ink on.

In general, randomness is good as long as it isn't directly deterministic to the game's outcome. Most the random effects in Smash movesets can KO, but are slow on startup as A2Z pointed out. These work for th characters' designs and are fine. Other random effects that often decide the outcome of games, like most items and some stage hazards, are not.

Also, any new system would be counter-intuitive and awkward. Anything that lets DDD manipulate Gordos or G&W 9s is going to have a huge impact on how they play, even if you rebalanced them around those moves. People are used to doing the moves and getting a result, and unlike most changes we do, and underlying system can't be communicated clearly on-screen.

Mystery Gift isn't random, though you might call it the most shallow pseudo-random ever. It's 10 possible results (half are smoke balls) seeded by your damage, a number visible on screen. It's okay for players to manipulate it because of the asinine startup time and the lack of a really ridiculous reward like a "9".

 

[deepseadiva]

Now hold on, please explain to me the bit where a few luck-based attacks totally make up the soul of Brawl. No, really, I'm struggling to think of why on Earth that would be the case.

You understand we have Peach mains with tattoos of stitch-face turnips right?

Brawl is a silly game. Removing the silliest things from the game would only be detrimental (especially since those silly things don't do much harm in the first place).

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

11:18:16 FinalDoomGuy: Hello?
11:24:07 Thinkaman: hi
11:24:29 :: FinalDoomGuy has left talkinator

Yeah, I must've been in other tabs. My timing is terrible.

@PSIence: Way to nitpick. (If we're going to nitpick, then those things are just the mian ones. :/) Also, wouldn't being able to make the moves more reliable make for some fun buff yet not be overpowering? That'd fit 1.

 

[Thinkaman]

You understand we have Peach mains with tattoos of stitch-face turnips right?

*Invokes Ken's Peach Theory*

*Is Disgusted*

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

You understand we have Peach mains with tattoos of stitch-face turnips right?

Brawl is a silly game. Removing the silliest things from the game would only be detrimental (especially since those silly things don't do much harm in the first place).

No, the thing that makes Brawl the good type of silly is all the characters, the items, the visuals, and the fact that you can pit a giant fat blue penguin who has a massive hammer against a assassin from a series which takes itself completely seriously.

Altering one or two moves don't strip the soul away. At all.

 

[JOE!]

it will strip the soul out of the characters that are affected.

For example, if you can control when you can get the best option, or the worst option, wouldnt you allways go for the best?

with the ability to get rid of the random buffer between really good-mediocre-crap of these moves, you'd have GW allways tossing out 9's when he decides it's time to bring the hammer down, Peach allways with bob-ombs/stitchface/golfclub, and DDD with gordo's (or doos depending on MU I guess) and oli with certain pikmin.

that will overcentralize their games to a few specific moves, and take out the luster that is scoring with the "good" variable. Tell me, do you think landing a 9 will be as fun if you could just set it to 9 every time?

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

Do you think I'm suggesting that you can instantly set what move you want or at least in a tiny amount of time? Of course not. I'd make it so that getting those 9s and Gordos and stuff took a reasonably big time to work for, while putting yourself in danger to do so.

Also, getting 9s is meh for me. Getting lucky is nowhere as fun to me as getting a hard move to land.

Luck: Random number generator gave me a 9. Uhm, yay I guess?

Getting hard move down: WOOT, I LANDED A FALCON KNEE/FALCON PAWNCH/WARLOCK PAWNCH etc.!

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it would be an interesting idea to set his side b to charge up, and as it charges it moves up the numbers until it hits nine

 

[Thinkaman]

it would be an interesting idea to set his side b to charge up, and as it charges it moves up the numbers until it hits nine

Not really, it'd be terribly unfun. G&W would want to spend every second spamming side-b to charge it, it'd be annoying and dumb for everyone. Same deal with DDD.

Edit: Only doing it on hit would be less stupid, but still has some issues including still being completely stupid on some stages. Also against Olimar.

 

[dansal]

Finaldoomguy, you did mention a timer mechanic similar to wario waft for some of these moves, but i really only see that as applicable to luigi's green missile, what with the explosive force and momentum and whatnot.

I guess it'd turn green missile into sort of a sideways wario waft?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'd refrain from putting too many timers in from a design standpoint. It works okay for Waft and makes it unique, but in general the idea encourages defensive play and stalling.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Luck: Random number generator gave me a 9. Uhm, yay I guess?

Getting hard move down: WOOT, I LANDED A FALCON KNEE/FALCON PAWNCH/WARLOCK PAWNCH etc.!

lol, have you ever played Gdubs? Judgement is hard to land.

 

[dansal]

I hope y'all are still around after Balanced Brawl: Ultimate Release version omega to make Balanced Brawl: Every Move is Sacred, the mod where every move is good AND balanced.

I guess thats what brawl- does, but it doesn't use the Bbrawl engine so i'm still hopeful.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, Brawl- is in no way balanced. It's just fun.

 

[dansal]

It looks pretty frustrating to play.

edit: What do you mod now? thats the first time i've noticed your new title.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's like that really long post I made explaining the situation went unread...

Removing randomness would not help the game. It would actually hurt the game.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I read it.

Perhaps you should include more TL;DR's

 

[FinalDoomGuy]

A great deal of your post was concerned with stages and I have absolutely no problems with stages with random elements. Hell, my favourite stages are very randomized ones. I consider characters to be a bit different though.

Once again, I do have to thank you all for responding maturely. Some of the stuff I've read is pretty insightful, and there is very few silly posts.