Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

[rPSIvysaur]

A2, I would be very disappoint if I lost my ability to combo with U-air.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

A2, I would be very disappoint if I lost my ability to combo with U-air.

Nobody cares about you.

Spoiler

loljk

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why does Mario needs to "forward punish"? Doesn't he has fireballs to avoid forward approach from the first place?

Wario has the same problem. But that's because his range issues, but his mobility covers it up hard enough to having him in top of vBrawl.

Luigi's death combo success rate increase = Polarizing against poor approaches.

Diddy's feels unnecessary.

Neither Link nor Tink grabs anyways.

Marth.... sounds like he'd be nerfed a bit too much.

Ike's would be... well.... Useless. You said his problems are characters that stop him from approach. Even with that buff, he would still be unable to land it; if it hits it would be surely rewarding, but I think it would be too much for his even-ish MUs.

I'm not sure what buffs did Kirby recieved in the end. Let's skip that.

And I don't know nothing about Lucas (srsly, I have problems in the MU), so I won't comment on that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One of the problems with Mario is because he has weak forward options, hitting his shield safely and comboing him is fairly easy. Since most movement in this game happens while facing forward, it's important that you have good tools for attacking in that direction.

Marth's grab change I'm suggesting is both a buff and a nerf, but the aim is to prevent easy chaingrabs into spike on fallers.

Well honestly there isn't much else you can do to really guarantee Ike is going to approach consistently. Unfavorable matchups are going to exist regardless of how balanced a fighter is. But Jab->D-smash happens to be important in matchups where it works, especially since Mario and Olimar are hard matchups for Ike. And it's not like we aren't buffing everyone else. What I think is more important however is making Ike's N-air a little less stupid, while making his B-air more worthwhile offstage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I keep encountering an error, when I load the GeckoOS and select Launch Game, it says that there are 473 lines of code when only 423 are allowed, I did not alter the RSBE01.gct file at all, in fact, when I first encountered this error I redownloaded the BalancedBrawl2.zip and replaced that file.

That makes little to no sense. 423 isn't a significant number. You'll need to explain your file configuration better.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

AA, how where you able to use both the omnibus and file patch codes? Those codes alone take up like 300 lines.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

AA, how where you able to use both the omnibus and file patch codes? Those codes alone take up like 300 lines.

The real line limit is over 8000 lines. How is 300 supposed to be a problem?

 

[JOE!]

The real line limit is over 9000 lines. How is 300 supposed to be a problem?

sorry, had to fix that

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

sorry, had to fix that

That fix is comic, of course, but it's actually untrue.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

The real line limit is over 8000 lines. How is 300 supposed to be a problem?

Really? I try and use code manager and it has a limit of 256 lines.

 

[Dan_X]

Really? I try and use code manager and it has a limit of 256 lines.

You're stuck in the past, man. We haven't been stuck at 256 lines for the lonnngest time now. You're likely using a crappy old version of code manager-- one of the old versions wouldn't let you make a gct containing more than 256 lines of code.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Then where can I get the newest version?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Code manager will give you a warning if you pass 256 lines, but you can disregard it as long as you have gameconfig.txt. Some older versions of code manager will prevent you; just upgrade (or downgrade, since really old versions are fine too!).

 

[MXIIA]

That makes little to no sense. 423 isn't a significant number. You'll need to explain your file configuration better.

that was my reaction, if it was 256 or 512 it would make sense, but 423 is ... not significant in computers at all.
My SD card has been formatted to FAT and has the exact download off of the balancedbrawl.net site on it

It also freezes when I select a stage, and I assume it has something to do with this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In other random news, you can't hide anything from me. =P

*wonders who else checked the BBrawl site recently*

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In other random news, you can't hide anything from me. =P

*wonders who else checked the BBrawl site recently*

I just wanted somewhere online to put that. It has nothing to do with anything we are planning; you have my assurance on that. I should probably take it down now that I'm done with it.

 

[ZephyrArsland]

Hello there, I'm pretty excited about trying out Balanced Brawl, but if I understood everything correctly, the method that doesn't require any hacking (via SD card and the custom stage menu) doesn't allow for BBrawl to be played with any custom stages...?

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I read thru 15 or more pages of the current 47 in the thread, but didn't find it. The question is: is there any way to play BBrawl with my own custom-made stages? If so, what is it? Does it require homebrew channel or something?

I'd be pretty grateful if someone could clear that up for me. Thanks in advance. Keep up the good work!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hello there, I'm pretty excited about trying out Balanced Brawl, but if I understood everything correctly, the method that doesn't require any hacking (via SD card and the custom stage menu) doesn't allow for BBrawl to be played with any custom stages...?

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I read thru 15 or more pages of the current 47 in the thread, but didn't find it. The question is: is there any way to play BBrawl with my own custom-made stages? If so, what is it? Does it require homebrew channel or something?

I'd be pretty grateful if someone could clear that up for me. Thanks in advance. Keep up the good work!

You do indeed need to either have the Homebrew Channel to keep your custom stages. Play via smash stack won't really allow for them (unless you use a two SD card scheme and switch at smart times, but I don't recommend it). If you want to use the HBC, just download BBrawl, remove the smash stack custom stage from the SD card, and re-roll the .gct using Code Manager to get rid of the "no custom stages" code (be sure to always have this code on if you have smash stack!).

 

[ZephyrArsland]

Thank you very much for the quick reply. I'll try this out as soon as I am able. I'm really new to this, and I don't even have HBC installed, but I'm working on it right now.

 

[ZephyrArsland]

I'm really sorry to bother you again. I got HBC to work with Gecko and everything. BBrawl loads fine (Or so I thought), I can see the revised stage selection screen and everything, but...

No one plays differently. I mean, the characters are their same old selves. What have I done wrong? I got BBrawl2.txt from your homepage, opened it with Codemgr, unchecked the "no custom stages v1.1" code, re-rolled as gct, and got this result... I'm using Gecko 1.9.0.1...

Once again, I'm really sorry to bother you, but I'd like to see if someone could help me. Thanks in advance ._.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You do have the file replacement code active, right? If you unchecked that, it won't load such changes. You also may have somehow re-arranged the private directory beyond removing smash stack; all the character and stage related files need to be preserved exactly as they were.

Of course, the last and simplest explanation is that you aren't leaving the SD card in. The game loads from the SD card on the fly. If smash stack is on it without the "no custom stages" code, there will be crashing of course, but if the SD card isn't there at all, changed characters just won't load.

 

[ZephyrArsland]

I am such a tool. I had forgotten to add the character files. I didn't notice they were there. As I said, I'm rather noobish at this all. It all works perfectly now.

I thank you deeply for your patience and understanding. BBrawl on!

 

[Sagen du Smash]

Sonic still sucks in Balanced Brawl... I'm sorry to say that but even with his spike spring and Dtilt, he just doesn't have the priority with vBrawl physics to deal with characters like MK, who still feels beyond broken at vBrawl level.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, just like outlame him and kill him at like 190% with a U-throw if you need to. He's not going to kill you easily either as long as you don't run into random F-smashes or sweetspot U-tilts. And Tornado is much less of a threat.

Plus Sonic's D-air is better in this game since you can now slowfall it like G&W's and air control it. I'd try edgeguarding Metaknight with it more in this game since his Shuttle Loop is considerably weaker. With it's fairly generous damage/knockback increase, it now should have enough power to be an okay offstage KO move.

At any rate my point is Sonic is fine. Not really dominating in any sense of the word, but I really highly doubt he has any stupidly bad matchups. My first guess as to Sonic vs MK in BBrawl would be about 55/45 MK's favor, and it largely depends on who gets the lead.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Also, sneaking in dash attacks and running usmashes works a lot better now. In general, "priority" isn't very helpful against MK anyway due to the way all of MK's moves are transcendent. Range is kinda nice, but MK has good answers to large range and Sonic is far from the only character with generally low range.

You do just kinda have to push the match toward your own strengths. If you get into a spacing war with Sonic, it's just common sense you lose. Run around and be disruptive! Play to Sonic's strengths, and I think Sonic should be more than a match for MK (who I'm fairly certain is not the best character in BBrawl).

 

[IYM!]

yes, finaly , the time are closer

Dolphin emulator is compatible now with Gecko codes, so , the posivilities to have BBrawl are bigger than before.

the proble is, i dont know how to put this codes on dolphin.

if anyone know how to do that i will be very thankful

 

[Thinkaman]

By the way I found a problem with Sheik.

Her Jab2 is growth based, and at a certain percent range, it is possible to repeatedly Jab walk some characters across the stage, and it COMBOS. In training mode I was able to do strings that did over 50 damage through repeated Jab walking towards the other side and then canceling into a different move like D-smash.

And it's particularly effective on fastfallers.

In the next BBrawl release, you should increase the SDI (and possibly the hitlag) multiplier of Sheik's Jab2. Possibly her Jab1, but I haven't done as much research on how much frame advantage she gets on that (it doesn't truly combo into anything in training mode though).

I'll put this on the list of thigns to look at, thanks. This is exactly the sort of issue we're concerned about.

And since I have nothing better to do, I'll go over my list of potential changes that are worth considering (I don't necessarily recommend all of them being used at once without careful consideration):

I'm gonna run through these really fast, don't take it personally if I miss one or am really critical/skeptical.

Mario:
*+1 damage on Jab3, F-tilt, last hit D-air, N-air, U-tilt
*+2 damage on all F-air hitboxes, the non-spike hitboxes now being better at KOing, increased shield damage
*increased knockback on D-air loop hitboxes (combo into final hit better)
*slightly lower growth on D-throw
*slight base knockback increase on B-air, angle set to 40
*slight base knock increase on U-tilt

Hah, I thought you were one of the strongest defenders of Mario having a good spot already? You're talking about some pretty huge buffs here, even in isolation. Combined these are almost equivalent to all of Lucas's buffs, but you already mentioned not to consider them all.

I'm not sure Mario needs even more close-range reward. That's already what he is great at.

An even stronger fair I can get even if it seems odd given how incredibly strong it's already been made, but shield damage confuses me.

I'd be scared to make d-throw better, or bair.

Why nerf u-tilt?

Luigi:
*+1 damage Jab3, F-air
*increase trip rate on D-tilt, make all hitboxes spike
*increase shield damage on cyclone

Luigi's fair is a sensitive move for him, screwing with it is probably bad.

I don't think Luigi needs further help, but if he did helping his approach with shield damage on cyclone would probably be the best choice.

Bowser:
*increase damage and base knockback of firebreath, set angle to around 35-40
*various random things I don't need to mention have been suggested for addressing Bowser's juggle/recovery issue.

Firebreath is a reeeaaallly dangerous move to make better. It's really skewed across skill levels and extremely variable with stage positioning. It's a great example of a move that as currently designed is best left kinda bad; it would be unfun and create balance problems if it was a solid move.

Diddy Kong:
*+1 damage Dash attack, U-smash

U-smash already does a lot of damage, and dash attack is uh, kinda a really good move for Diddy already. If I had to buff Diddy in some way, I'd make dash attack connect better so Jigglypuff couldn't rest him out of it.

Wario:
*+1 damage F-air, Dash attack
*Reduce U-smash SDI factor
*increase D-smash base knockback

I'm not sure what the goal here is.

Link:
*+1 damage U-throw, Bombs
*D-throw angle more upwards, less growth rate, possibly interruptible sooner.
*lower angle B-throw and F-throw to around 30 degrees

Honestly, I'm skeptical that Link is frequently grabbing people in his worst matchups. The tether grab is an innately polarizing element like that.

Ganondorf:
*D-smash and Dash attack push blocking opponents in opposite directions they do currently
*F-throw hitbox is always safe on hit against the Ice Climbers and has lowered growth
*increase Jab hitbox duration to 7 frames, lower growth but increase base knockback and damage

ICs is a problem that needs to be fixed on their end, not Ganon's. Jab I'm also not sure what the goal is.

Toon Link:
*slightly increase knockback- of weak hit Up-smash
*D-throw interruptible sooner
*more base knockback on F-throw and B-throw

See Link.

Kirby:
*+1 damage F-tilt, angle 25 on down angled F-tilt

Seems reasonable, if Kirby was going to get buffed it would probably look something like this.

Pokemon Trainer:
*Make Charizard's firebreath similar to Bowser's
*Increase bkb of Razor Leaf

See Charizard. What is the goal of the razor leaf change? RL is already a great projectile, and increasing base is only going to make it better at walling people it is hitting. Why polarize it further? (It's bad enough on Link arrows, but here it's not necessary.)

Lucario:
D-tilt angle set to 80, lower knockback growth, increase bkb slightly

Hmm, I'm not very familiar with Lucario d-tilt's numbers off the top of my head, can't say much.

Marth:
+1 damage to throws except D-throw, increase base and lower growth of F-throw a tiny bit

Buff? Marth?

Ike:
*Bring back the D-smash buff, only make 2nd hit D-smash a vertical killer more powerful than Up-smash.
*Make N-air interrupt a bit later, make B-air interrupt slightly earlier.

Wait, you want Ike to have a better bair? O_o

Nair's interrupt is something we talked about. I think for now we are considering keeping it as is. The SH auto-cancel is definitely perfect (I think everyone agrees), and the buffered FH nair-fair is positive. Thoughts?

And d-smash buff might come back, but it would definitely be horizontal. Ike's primary problem is still Olimar. For right now we're just measuring the impact of scaling back Wruption's armor.

Lucas:
*Set N-air final hit angle to 75 degrees, reduce growth rate
*Grab hitbox duration set to 5 frames
*Increase bkb of U-air
*increase damage first hit U-smash (it combos into the hit that kills as I recall) and greatly reduce SDI factor

Grab length is being looked at intensely.

Not sure what the goal is with nair.

I don't think uair killing sooner solves Lucas's supposed problems. It does make him more like Ness though.

SDI on u-smash first hit might be a good idea, I'll look into it.

We're investigating other things on Lucas too, in response to feedback.

Snake:
*SideB interrupt sooner, startup (before projectile fires) cancelable into all other actions.
*-1 more damage from D-throw, +1 damage to all other throws

IASA on side-b would animate really awkwardly, it'd be awful. If Snake needed buffing (lol?) and if Nikita was a big help in his worst matchups (lol?) there's a million ways in which it could be buffed.

I see what you are going for with the throws, but I don't think it's a polarizing factor. It's okay for Snake's totally unique d-throw to be his best throw. If I had to change something I might make u-throw better, but the others are already great at what they do and again... buff Snake? (lol)

Base knockback as I recall is more "even" than knockback growth when compared to how it affects different weight classes, which is why I suggested increasing that as opposed to knockback growth for Lucas's U-air. He mainly needs more knockback to kill heavies at respectable percents.

The best way to stress weight differences (and DI) in KO power is to make moves more orthogonal or diagonal. Modifying base is kinda an awkward and misplaced way to target that.

Anyway, doesn't Lucas struggle more with the lightweight members of team disjoint than heavies? When I play Lucas it's G&W that scares me, not DK or Snake.

And let me explain my other changes. Most of the changes I'm making are meant to make most of the cast closer to top tier, comparable to where Wolf, Falco, Peach, and Pikachu are. Of course I'm not finished with figuring out what would do that appropriately.

I don't think Wolf is the best personally, but I agree he's a contender. Top 5-8?

I'm a tad skeptical of Peach in top 5; every match I see shows her buffs mattering a little less than anticipated. (Which is good! There was some fear there!)

Falco and Pikachu I'm actually surprised at. I read your thoughts, and I'm still not sure why they (or Peach) are elevated to this distinct tier.

Mario is pretty well rounded, but to get that extra edge he needs to be as good as the top, his below average damage when punishing forward is the main thing that needs to be fixed. Some of his moves are a little unsafe on hit at low percents as well, which is kinda annoying, and Marth I believe is able to Up-B Mario out of D-air.

Ah, I see about the dair thing. I'll try Resting him out of it, this might be something to look into. I think Mario is pretty solid though, his KO power continues to impress.

Luigi's D-tilt buff is far from trivial. It opens up the ability to better combo into F-smash and Up-B on more characters (from Jab cancel).

Why would we ever want to do this? Hahaha.

As for Diddy's Dash attack damage increase, you know you could always just increase the damage and reset the knockback so that it works the same.

I mean, if Diddy's dash attack were to be changed, it'd be changed knockback and *not* damage!

Wario's damage increase on Dash attack and F-air (not to mention making his DACUS more reliable) is important since his forward punish options like Mario's are generally weak. There are a number of characters that easily wall him as a result, so I believe it's fair that he gets a little more reward for poking his way in. Buffing his D-smash is something to consider in the Falco matchup, a character who gives Wario a lot of trouble and has a broken spotdodge.

Why is d-smash in particular the Wario counter to Falco spot dodge? Why not f-smash?

Better connecting u-smash I might be sold on, it could be in-line with other changes. (Similar case to Sonic, if a lot less exotic.)

Link's buffs are mainly meant to increase the effectiveness of his throw game, which is the main reason why he isn't a top tier character. Same goes for Toon Link. In Toon Link's case, his other main shortcomings are either slightly low damage per hit or iffy KO setups.

I already mentioned this; I don't think tether grabber have a low reward problem--if anything, in their worst matchups they have a "we can't get grabs" problem. Both these characters are really good right now regardless; when I think of "matchup problems", the last guys on my mind are Link/TL.

I don't recall Kirby getting a buff on F-tilt. His Jab combo is better, but not his F-tilt.

I don't recall one either.

Marth's changes are meant to make his throw game less polarizing against space animals (chaingrab into spike), yet generally speaking more reliable for sources of damage.

What are the numbers on the spacies cg?

Ike can Jab cancel into D-smash against a few characters, and it actually helps balance matchups where it works (he still has a lot of trouble against Olimar, and Mario has the advantage against him). Ike's N-air is a little silly since you can buffer a F-air after a fullhop U-air. However Ike really should be allowed to do two B-airs in a fullhop. The change also helps Ike's ability to edgeguard.

Do you happen to know which characters? That could be really helpful info, I was totally unaware.

Lucas suffers from not being able to heavily punish escaping opponents, which is why increased grab duration is important to catch landing opponents and people who roll away. The U-smash buff helps Lucas's edgetrapping game (very useful against characters like Donkey Kong and Snake) and also makes his techchase game more rewarding.

Yeah, increased grab duration is a very modest but very appropriate benefit. The numbers I'm testing now are a bit liberal, but finding the right number won't be too hard.

 

[Steeler]

Razor Leaf is definitely not a 'great' projectile, and buffing the reward on hit doesn't really fix the problem with the move, of the projectile being incredibly easy to powershield due to how slow it is to move and how much startup lag Ivysaur has. Add the fact that Ivy has quite a bit of cooldown afterward and it's an occasional mix-up in some matchups, at best.

I've been playing a lot of bbrawl by myself, I'll post thoughts sometime when I'm not trying to get everything on my computer back in order.

 

[JOE!]

Making fire breath do Knockback would prevent it from doing the epic damage it does that *really* creates the akward skill gap.

And Bowser -needs- a move to make space with

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah see, I don't get why Thinkaman doesn't like Firebreath with knockback...the whole purpose of the move is for spacing. Which it sorta does okay, but not well enough when if it were buffed, it would likely help Bowser balance a lot of matchups.

It still doesn't stop better vertical zoning games that basically EVERYONE has due to its startup, but I believe it should be rewarding when you successfully outspace someone horizontally.

Increase the damage on the individual hits so that the damage output is somewhat existent. From testing increased Firebreath knockback does not connect multiple hits.

The move would be about as good as something like Ike's F-air. Too slow and situational to dominate any particular matchup, but good enough to control space and keep people honest. The main difference being Ike's F-air covers vertical area better, while Bowser's Firebreath does less damage but pressures shield better. Both moves fundamentally are best when used while retreating, so nobody has to be worried about fundamentally getting wrecked by any unstoppable approach when looking out for those moves.

Although Bowser's biggest problem is recovery, that's something that affects him in all matchups (while some characters do gimp him a little too easily). His other bad matchups are against characters who have solid zoning as well from what I recall, so making a Firebreath that gives him better positional advantage on hit should balance his worst matchups pretty well. He probably should have that against Falco at least, who he lost grab release combos on, and who still laser camps and combos him quite well. To be honest I can't really think of a single matchup where buffed Firebreath would be too good. I can only see the move making Bowser's matchups less awful and then possibly giving him a few well-deserved favorable matchups if Bowser's recovery and options to escape juggles are improved.

Anyhow as for Razor Leaf, I don't get how it stops nades either. Sure it does cut through shields (lol anyone want to give that move shield damage for kicks?), but that doesn't exactly stop Snake from camping ROB with nades, and ROB's laser is a *much* better projectile than Razor Leaf for doing silly things to Snake. Considering that Razor Leaf lacks the control ROB's laser does, I don't see what's stopping Snake from simply standing or jumping above it to get the window he needs to toss grenades. Or heck the move isn't exactly safe on block either.

The real purpose for Razor Leaf (and virtually all projectiles) is for landing traps. If your opponent jumps, throw a projectile where you think they will land. This is why I want to increase the BKB of Razor Leaf. Snake probably will be in the air at some point with few options, and making sure he doesn't get back down without getting punished is important.

Plus, the idea that Ivysaur beats Snake (something that Thinka and I were discussing) doesn't quite register to me when Snake's B-air is one of the best edgeguard tools in the game against predictable recoveries. Given Ivysaur's uninspiring mobility and slow Up-smash/grab, I don't think she has the best tools for land trapping Snake safely. A buffed Razor Leaf however I believe would make the matchup significantly better if only for land trapping.

And in other random news, I came to a realization that there's a *lot* of moves that would become like 10x better by simply changing the angle from 361 to something like 45, since angle 361 does not launch the opponent into the air when they don't take tumble. It's the reason why Toon Link's B-air is able to be a good low-mid percent combo tool. Removing 361 angles on a lot of moves would create a metagame where hit confirmable combos would be much more common due to the added frames of advantage cause by airtime and landlag.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, Bowser Firebreath has one really obvious use that you are seeming too happy to overlook. Consider going near a ledge and covering it with angled Firebreath. Now, a lot of characters really can't recover well enough to get over it or get onto the ledge with i-frames. The reason it is not so dangerous is because it is pretty easy to get through the fire stream without taking all too much damage, and Bowser of course has somewhat riskier but far more rewarding edge traps to go for. Now, imagine if it were, in fact, not really plausible to (a)SDI through the flames. Now Bowser can more or less auto-gimp a huge chunk of the cast or at least deal a huge chunk of damage as the flame wears out enough to reveal the ledge, hilariously including himself? As a short burst spacing tool, it doesn't even get that much better. This is the very good reason these types of moves are bad and should remain bad. When they work in the naturally powerful way, they are still mostly limited but have a situational but extremely overpowering and polarizing situation.

Ivysaur does so well against Snake mostly because of bair, and that is dramatically oversimplifying projectiles. Ivysaur's Razor Leaf is useful for the same reasons other slow projectiles are. It forces the opponent to respond to it which if nothing else forces them not to be moving at the time (even powershielding forces you to kill your mobility). Razor Leaf isn't the big deal here, but that is what it is for. The thing with Snake vs Ivysaur is that Ivysaur can just kinda harry Snake, and Snake isn't going to have the easiest time getting Ivysaur off-stage where Ivysaur can be exploited in the first place. The basics to not getting gimped as tether recoveries are pretty simple, especially against a character like Snake. DI up as much as possible so you can do high recoveries, against which Snake has few good answers. If you can't recover high, recover either very quickly (before Snake can physically get to you, which is actually a good chunk of time because Snake isn't exactly high mobility or fast attack speed) or recover reactively to Snake's movement. If he is hanging out on-stage, he is simply too slow to jump out and bat out your near recovery on reaction. If he jumps out after you, just drop really low and use your tether to slip right past him. He can't drop low to gimp you unless he's going for a suicide kill due to the massive commitment on all five of his aerials. Sure sometimes he'll catch you, but the overwhelming majority of the time, Ivysaur should be able to recover past Snake. I don't even see how Ivysaur has a "predictable" recovery. Mario has a predictable recovery since his recovery gets so little distance that he can only do it basically one way. Ivysaur has a dair that can change timings and can tether from a massive number of positions and hit the ledge. It isn't the greatest recovery for other reasons, but predictability is not a flaw of Ivysaur's recovery.

We aren't really looking to change this into a game in which hit confirm combos are better. We don't have a fundamental problem with the mechanics of special angle 361, and there isn't going to be a move in that design direction. That would just be contrary to our main goal of not unnecessarily changing the nature of the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, Bowser Firebreath has one really obvious use that you are seeming too happy to overlook. Consider going near a ledge and covering it with angled Firebreath. Now, a lot of characters really can't recover well enough to get over it or get onto the ledge with i-frames. The reason it is not so dangerous is because it is pretty easy to get through the fire stream without taking all too much damage, and Bowser of course has somewhat riskier but far more rewarding edge traps to go for. Now, imagine if it were, in fact, not really plausible to (a)SDI through the flames. Now Bowser can more or less auto-gimp a huge chunk of the cast or at least deal a huge chunk of damage as the flame wears out enough to reveal the ledge, hilariously including himself? As a short burst spacing tool, it doesn't even get that much better. This is the very good reason these types of moves are bad and should remain bad. When they work in the naturally powerful way, they are still mostly limited but have a situational but extremely overpowering and polarizing situation.

If you change the angle of a high base knockback Bowser's Firebreath to something like 45, nobody will complain about Firebreath being an overpowered edgetrap tool. It will still be good, but MUCH less polarizing between skill gaps. Especially since most people try to edgejump it, if they are hit out of edgejump, they will have plenty of leeway to try a 2nd attempt to recover while only taking the damage of one or two hits of Firebreath. Since Firebreath's duration is only so long, and it's lag is significant, I don't see it being broken for edgetrapping if it had high base. And if my memory of yesterday's convos is correct, Thinka was more worried about Firebreath being too good as a spacer.

I'm sorry I didn't mention that earlier. That was actually in my motivations for suggesting buffed Firebreath, specifically with high base knockback. The way I see it, my vision for Bowser's Firebreath will remove all gimmicks that players and characters alike hate about it, while making it a unique and much more practical move for covering holes in Bowser's game that many characters actually exploit.

If you can't recover high, recover either very quickly (before Snake can physically get to you, which is actually a good chunk of time because Snake isn't exactly high mobility or fast attack speed) or recover reactively to Snake's movement. If he is hanging out on-stage, he is simply too slow to jump out and bat out your near recovery on reaction. If he jumps out after you, just drop really low and use your tether to slip right past him. He can't drop low to gimp you unless he's going for a suicide kill due to the massive commitment on all five of his aerials. Sure sometimes he'll catch you, but the overwhelming majority of the time, Ivysaur should be able to recover past Snake. I don't even see how Ivysaur has a "predictable" recovery. Mario has a predictable recovery since his recovery gets so little distance that he can only do it basically one way. Ivysaur has a dair that can change timings and can tether from a massive number of positions and hit the ledge. It isn't the greatest recovery for other reasons, but predictability is not a flaw of Ivysaur's recovery.

Recovering quickly is a legit strategy I will agree.

However Snake can react veeeery fast to most low recoveries. Run off B-air is legit due to Snake's great fall speed and the huge hitbox and due to the fact that many low recoveries are limited in their ability to space aerials to stop this. And the commitment on his B-air is not that bad. He can do two in a fullhop for the record (something Ike really wishes his B-air could do). It's no worse in aerial commitment than something like G&W's F-air (landlag and Snake's bad D-air is the only reason you don't see Snakes spamming Fullhop B-airs onstage), and Snake's vertical recovery also goes a bit higher than G&W's. A well implemented B-air is usually enough to make it very difficult for most tether characters to make it back to the stage. Or Ganon or Link for that matter, who have very poor aerial acceleration. To emphasize my point, Snake literally is able to B-air someone (sourspot) in the magnified zone and he's still able to make it back to the stage.

Plus if you're going to argue that Ivysaur's recovery is made less predictable due to D-air stalling, this is exactly why Mario's recovery is underrated. Cape Stalling is the 2nd best vertical recovery mixup tool in the game (Fox's Reflector is the best). It's actually shocking how poorly implemented it is by most Mario users. It has the ability to perfectly bait edgehogs due to its low commitment (and I'm very certain that Ivysaur's D-air has much more commitment than Mario's Cape), and of course there is the obvious "hover outside of edgeguard zone" that is valued by every character who has that option. Even if it may look like Mario's recovery is one-tracked in that he doesn't fall backwards as much as most characters, he can easily vary the timing of his midair jump and Cape Stalling to change his potential vertical position, which is by far more important than any superfluous horizontal distance (everyone, even Link and Ganon get superfluous horizontal distance when good DI - extremely common in high level play - is factored) you could possibly get on your recovery in this game. Plus unlike Ivysaur, Mario is much better at consistently leaving open the option of landing on stage should the edgegrab situation look unfavorable (which you guys did improve for Mario by giving him Walljump out of Up-B, which when canceled by B reversal Fireball is very hard for an opponent on the ledge to punish).

The best example of a one tracked recovery is of course Bowser's, which I think everyone is aware of. I would consider his recovery in particular the worst recovery not just in this game, but in vBrawl as well. Link or Olimar don't get recovery ***** in nearly as many matchups as Bowser does (actually Bowser's recovery is drop dead easy for everyone to punish hard). And against characters who have tools that are specifically meant to gimp like (semi) spikes, Mario's Cape, or strong aerials, Bowser is much worse off. And then of course he can't really land on stage safely, which only results in him getting hit offstage again, and he has the worst edge options in the game when his damage exceeds 100%.

 

[Thinkaman]

What we're basically talking about is a Charizard fair that can't KO but has three times the range, can be used in air or on ground, can be angled up or down, and can be held continuously to edgeguard or beat any shield.

Let's say Bowser is jumping in with this monster of move at you. What do you do? It outranges everything including rolls, is now super safe on hit, and beats all shields and spotdodges. Run away and spam projectiles is your only real strategy unless you have a reflector, which makes the move a joke. Falco in particular laughs at this, while everyone else in the game gets completely walled.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur v snake is probably even in this game, ivy bair is okay, snake can get around it with dash attacks/DACUS, ftilts, and grenades. bair is an anti air move, first and foremost.

bullet seed is really gay for snake though; the reason why ivy can compete with snake is that snake really does not like having a weakened shield, and ivy can do a fairly good job of that in this matchup. low shield means a lot more bullet seed opportunities.

snake bair is indeed a very good edgeguard against ivy but the onus is on snake to predict the tether.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Here's the catch. Bowser is the biggest character in the game, and this move does not protect his head for like over 9000 frames (Ike's F-air anyone? This is SLOWER, and has comparable ending lag, plus it takes a considerable amount of time before he can angle it for the purpose of anti-airing). If you're spacing SH aerials like you're not supposed to in this matchup then sure, it will wall the hell out of you. But nobody in the right mind would dare to just merely short hop against a Bowser that is worth anything. And should the Bowser be foolish enough to think that overcommiting to an especially high jump is a solution for protecting his head, I don't want to explain what happens to Bowser especially when he's going up against G&W.

tl:dr version: Firebreath covers only a specific range when if first comes out. And it starts up very slowly and has huge commitment. This move isn't anywhere close to being as good as Blizzard. Well, it would be if it were on Squirtle. But on Bowser, it's merely really useful.

And anyone who dodges or rolls against Bowser in the first place deserves a slap in the face due to how unsafe it is (well, in virtually 95% of practical competitive situations against a competitive Bowser). And the Bowser if he so dares to think that this is a good approach I shall slap that player in the face too since I can just anti-air him on reaction.

Beating shields? I'm not worried. You can react out of shield to this especially if the Bowser is foolish enough to be using this as an approach. However I like the idea of this move discouraging mindless sliding shield approaches.

This move is for COUNTER zoning and opens up options for punishing commitments.

I will admit though, your point about Falco is spot on, but I doubt the move is useless against him.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm still not sure we're on the same page. We're talking about a move having range over a third the length of FD. Think about that; this isn't Ike fair range (which can be shielded or dodged anyway), it's not in the same ballpark, league, or even sport. 30 frames of ending lag doesn't sound great, but normally lag doesn't have a wall of lingering projectiles covering you.

The only viable way to approach a Bowser with this is to jump in above him. You have to start this approach at close range before his startup finishes. Meanwhile, a retreating firebreath beats almost all approaches in the game.

 

[JOE!]

you know fire breath goes down over time, right?

also, Falco's laser also stops like all aproaches if he wants to

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only viable way to approach a Bowser with this is to jump in above him. You have to start this approach at close range before his startup finishes. Meanwhile, a retreating firebreath beats almost all approaches in the game.

You know that was exactly what I intended. I guess my perception of broken is completely different from yours. I'm very willing to play the wait game for stage control.

What about Samus's Z-air, which not only knocks you back significantly, has huge range, but also starts up and ends REALLY fast?

 

[Thinkaman]

JOE, we might not be on the same page. We're talking about a firebreath with knockdown, not merely increased knockback. Not some sort of an extra push, but a Charizard fair sized shove off-stage.

You know that was exactly what I intended. I guess my perception of broken is completely different from yours. I'm very willing to play the wait game for stage control.

What about Samus's Z-air, which not only knocks you back significantly, has huge range, but also starts up and ends REALLY fast?

Shield and dodging still let zair be beaten though. Furthermore, zair doesn't knockdown.

 

[JOE!]

hold on, like actual wall of Zard Fair?

Yeah, thats borked, what i pictured was that his flames would be more 'wall like", if you catch my drift?