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Balanced Brawl Version 2 Release

Last Elixir

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Since there's few feedback, I'm pretty sure that internal discussion is having some hard times.

Anyways
I'd like if you also include the Bottom Removal for all of Spear Pillar forms (Palkia specially). And I always wondered how a speed redection on Pirate Ship would work...
How do people consider the idea of a stage that can randomly decide that it's going to remove the only ledge you can recover from and send you to your death to be fair? I think I really do not understand fully how taking away the bottom of that stage makes anything a lot more fair I guess?
 

MonkUnit

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Just need to add a ledge to the part that opens up then. For instance, on spear pillar, the middle area gets destroyed, add a ledge on the inside center.
 

ぱみゅ

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Fair? It's most likely a (hard) counter against linear recoveries. The stage was edited in an attempt to add another option to the rooster, it still need to be tested in a serious environment.
I find Palkia's stage specially good for characters with low mobility, they find easier times adapting when the stage is reversed....
And btw, that ledge issue is not Pillar-exlusive: have you ever played on Frigate?
 

Last Elixir

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Fair? It's most likely a (hard) counter against linear recoveries. The stage was edited in an attempt to add another option to the rooster, it still need to be tested in a serious environment.
I find Palkia's stage specially good for characters with low mobility, they find easier times adapting when the stage is reversed....
And btw, that ledge issue is not Pillar-exlusive: have you ever played on Frigate?
I have and I avoid it for much the same reason. Don't forget it is also a pretty solid counter to characters that rely upon their tether recovery to get back on stage, so hopefully you aren't ZSS or Link or Ivysaur.

In any case, I do think it'd be pretty sweet if grabbable ledges could be added to the stage like that, but otherwise I am not a fan of the new version of Spear Pillar at all!
 

Rainierman

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
22
Yeah, I in particular feel pretty bad not being able to support the project with feedback. I'm sure I can't be the only whose friends don't play this, or that the ones that do live afar, so we don't get many chances past the casual ones to help the project. A big sorry on behalf of everyone that fits those fields, AA and Thinkaman =/.

Btw, AA and Thinkaman: What do you think about the New Pork City stage? I'm really curious about what your opinions are about it.

On the ledge subject, yeah, my friends and I HATE how that certain ledge got removed in Hyrule Temple >_>. Suicides galore. And it's also VERY confusing for new players having to memorize which ledges are grabbable and which aren't. I'm not new at all and it confuses me myself, and took a long while till I got used to not count on the not-ledges of the pits of Mushroomy Kingdom (and lol, I had honestly forgotten the ones in Frigate didn't work either). Just what were the developers thinking?
 

Last Elixir

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Yeah, I in particular feel pretty bad not being able to support the project with feedback. I'm sure I can't be the only whose friends don't play this, or that the ones that do live afar, so we don't get many chances past the casual ones to help the project. A big sorry on behalf of everyone that fits those fields, AA and Thinkaman =/.

Btw, AA and Thinkaman: What do you think about the New Pork City stage? I'm really curious about what your opinions are about it.

On the ledge subject, yeah, my friends and I HATE how that certain ledge got removed in Hyrule Temple >_>. Suicides galore. And it's also VERY confusing for new players having to memorize which ledges are grabbable and which aren't. I'm not new at all and it confuses me myself, and took a long while till I got used to not count on the not-ledges of the pits of Mushroomy Kingdom (and lol, I had honestly forgotten the ones in Frigate didn't work either). Just what were the developers thinking?
Yeah, I have a similar problem, except my friends do all play BBrawl willingly with me, except that I do not really have a lot of confidence that I am good enough at the game to offer feedback that is useful, but also I don't really know what to do as far as getting better at the game is concerned! Given, I don't think that I am bad at it, but I'm sure that if I went to any proper tournament I'd get my rear handed to me.

That said, is there any sort of specific input you're looking for? If there's any little things I can do to contribute from where I am, I would love to help!
 

bombrider

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Doesn't seem to work for me at all. Downloaded the files and extracted them into my 4gb Kingston sd card. Deleted all my custom stages then turned my wii off, inserted the sd card and turned the wii back on. Went into custom stages and noticed that it took about 5-10 seconds for it to load (no stages though) then nothing happened. What am I doing wrong?
 

A2ZOMG

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The SD card sounds like the problem. I'm pretty certain Wiis simply don't read SD cards greater than 2gb.
 

King Luigi 128

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Doesn't seem to work for me at all.
Downloaded the files and extracted them into my 4gb Kingston sd card. Deleted all my custom stages then turned my wii off, inserted the sd card and turned the wii back on. Went into custom stages and noticed that it took about 5-10 seconds for it to load (no stages though) then nothing happened.
What am I doing wrong?
The SD card sounds like the problem.
I'm pretty certain Wiis simply don't read SD cards greater than 2gb.
You were right about the SD Card being the problem here, however...
If your System Menu is 4.0 or higher, the Wii can use SD-HC Cards (SD Cards from 4 to 32GB).
The problem is that Brawl can't use them.. (because it was released long before the 4.0 update).
(Well ok.. technically Brawl does read them, but it chooses not to use them.)

So just get yourself a 2GB SD Card for your Brawl stuff & you should be fine. ;)
 

IYM!

Smash Lord
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I'm defidently a fan of this. BBrawl is defidently under rated and needs more hype!
totaly agree, i cant foud anything about BBrawl on youtube ( except the each character major change, breakout, showcase, etc.) like combo videos or match up

In the Showcases video said that this game was tested with thousand of hours of playing, well, upload some of those matches


(i want see the new Link and Samus in action :cool: )


if all here could upload a copule of matches,BBrawl would have more popularity and more aceptation
 

A2ZOMG

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...you're right. I've been slacking tremendously in getting up Balanced Brawl footage.

Maybe I'll upload some of my replays during the Winter Break.

Also, I've been doing a lot of testing with PSA these days, trying out ideas that I believe would improve Balanced Brawl in general. Dunno if anyone else is interested in seeing the stuff I come up with. My ideas generally have the goal of making every character closer to being top tier and increasing the quality of "bad" moves.

[collapse="Big List of stuff I'm testing if you're curious"]To be completed...and I wish I had better ideas for every character in this game.

Captain Falcon:
Rapid Jabs are double speed, bkb ->5 (can't be shieldgrabbed, but you can be very easily shieldgrabbed before Rapid Jabs)
2nd hit N-air hitbox duration 6 frames (extra duration on the first hit would be super broken, but this should give Falcon a better approach)

Diddy Kong:
weight knockback ->20 DA 2nd hit (Jiggs can't rest Diddy out of this)
final Dash attack hitbox damage ->5, kbg ->36 (total damage all three hits 10)

Game and Watch:
D-tilt hitbox 0 damage -> 8, bkb ->64 (reduces wall locks but still helps G&W in those matchups he still is disadvantaged in)
F-tilt bkb ->25 (slightly better high percent KO move, safer on hit at low percents)

Ganondorf:
Jab hitbox duration 7 frames (can cover spotdodge, dash-ins, anti-air)
Jab hitbox 0 and 2 (close hitboxes) damage ->8, shield damage ->2, direction ->40, bkb ->90, kbg->36, electric element
Jab hitbox 1 (far hitbox) damage ->10, direction ->35, bkb ->90, kbg ->30 (Ganon's Jab won't kill, but it will get you offstage easily)
Jab SFX frame 15
New special offensive collision on DA should make it crossover on block easily. shield damage ->5 on weak hitboxes.
D-tilt trip hitbox 0-2 damage ->10, shield damage ->2 (make Flame choke D-tilt less polarizing to Ganon's choke game)
Special offensive collision hitboxes on D-smash 2nd hitbox only affect aerial opponents
New idential normal collision hitboxes on D-smash 2nd hitbox affect grounded opponents and shield push properly
Close hitbox 2nd hit D-smash damage ->15
F-throw Special Offensive collision growth kbg ->25, bkb -> 85 (only relevant against the Ice Climbers or in doubles)
Grounded Flame Choke throw collision damage -> 10
N-air landing lag double speed after frame 14 (total 18), +1 damage on all hitboxes (total 20 for landing both), first hit bkb ->35, kbg ->90
Sourspot F-air damage -> 16, bkb -> 38

Ike:
D-smash first hit direction ->25 (Jab -> D-smash is important against whoever Ike can combo it on, particularly Olimar, Mario, and ROB)
D-smash 2nd hit damage ->17/10 (early/late hitboxes), kbg and base both 105/32 respectively (this should be more powerful than U-smash)
N-air interruptable frame 40
B-air interruptable frame 44 (basically B-air and N-air are more natural, no fullhop N-air -> F-air, but fullhop B-airx2 should work, and ledgedrop B-air is much more viable)

Kirby:
F-tilt Up and side angled damage ->9 all hitboxes
F-tilt down angled damage ->8 all hitboxes, direction ->25 (F-tilt is an important spacer vs G&W, Marth, and MK)

Koopa:
Firebreath close/far damage ->4/3, direction 20/60, bkb 40 (less gimmicky spacer)
Standing grab animates double speed after frame 19 (should end on frame 29 like normal grabs?)

Link:
U-throw throw collision damage -> 3 (total damage 8), kbg ->195 (slightly stronger vertical KO move)
Item Throw strength -> 1.1 (something...until I learn to hex edit Bombs)

Lucario:
D-tilt hitboxes 0-3 direction ->80, kbg ->80 bkb -> 56 (combo starter anyone? This is a REALLY good low% combo starter)

Lucas:
Jab RA-Bit[22] set active frame 12 (autoJab should repeat every 12 frames unless I'm stupid)
Dash attack interruptable frame 36
U-smash first hit damage ->9 (28 damage U-smash anyone? Edgetrap with this! =D )
D-smash 2nd hit kbg ->100, bkb ->40
D-smash 3rd hit kbg ->120, bkb ->40 (both late hits are still have slightly less kb than the first hit, but should kill better)
N-air final hit direction ->75, kbg -> 20, bkb -> 85 (use this to set up into U-air)
U-air damage ->14
grab, dashgrab, pivot grab hitbox duration 4, 5, and 3 frames respectively
PSI Magnet release hitbox damage ->10, direction ->20, kbg ->100, bkb ->40, hitbox size ->6

Luigi:
Jab3 damage ->6, kbg ->71 (safer than DA for covering spotdodge, also to be used on chars who you can't Jab cancel combo that well)
Fair damage ->11 (useful forward option against everyone, especially Marth)

Mario:
Jab3 damage ->5, kbg ->85
F-tilt damage ->9
U-tilt damage ->8, kbg ->110, bkb, ->40 (U-tiltx2 links on all characters at 0%)
Down angled F-smash shield damage ->1, direction ->25 (kills very slightly earlier than Mario's normal angled F-smash with no DI factored)
N-air sweetspot damage ->11, kbg ->90
N-air sourspot damage ->6
F-air early sourspot damage ->14, shield damage ->6, kbg ->80, bkb ->65, hitlag modifier ->1.3, sfx change (sounds like sweetspot F-air)
F-air sweetspot damage -> 15, shield damage ->5 kbg -> 65, hitlag modifier ->1.3
F-air late sourspot damage ->13, shield damage ->7, kbg ->85, bkb ->35 (early sourspot F-air kills around 120ish, late sourspot kills later)
B-air sweetspot bkb -> 20
B-air soutspot bkb -> 10 (this move combos into itself much better at lower mid percents)
D-air loop wkb ->15, kbg ->110, SDI multiplier ->1.0 (I think Marth could Up-B out previously?)
D-air final hit damage ->8, kbg ->75, bkb ->72
D-air landing hitbox direction ->60 (much easier to combo with. You no longer need to combo a D-air loop hit into this to land another combo)
D-throw kbg ->40 (sets up into fullhop F-air at KO percents to give you a visual)
FLUDD squirt interruptable frame 36 air and ground versions (Slight buff to edgeguard and anti-zoning game)

Marth:
U-throw damage ->5, kbg ->110 (slightly more powerful KO move)
F-throw damage ->5, kbg -> 28, bkb -> 74 (Only one regrab from 0% on a few characters, F-throw F-smash is intact for the most part)
F-smash sweetspot damage -> 20, kbg -> 65 (Keep F-throw F-smash damage high)
F-smash sourspot damage -> 13, kbg -> 75 (F-smash overall is a slightly weaker KO move, and less rewarding for punishing approaches)
Dash Attack angle 30. (gets people offstage well)

Ness:
Grounded PK Fire interruptible frame 51 (Air PK Fire unchanged, but the grounded version is a better "poke", and leads to combos slightly more easily, damage might need readjustment)

To be finished:

Pokemon Trainer:
Charizard:
Firebreath damage ->3/2, direction 30/65, shield damage ->2/3, bkb ->40, kbg -> 50/60 (pushes people farther, more shield damage than Bowser's)
Ivysaur:
Razor Leaf knockback more advantageous

Samus:
Up-smash fully connects when ppl don't SDI (Pikachu's D-smash for platform pressure and anti-airs! It does 23 damage if you land every hit. Not a very strong KO move though.)

Snake:
D-throw less damage, other throws more damage (make Snake's throw game less gimmicky, can someone make his SideB ledgegrab or startup/ending lag cancelable?),
F-tilt meteor hitbox bkb ->80 (F-tilt damange nerfs unneccessary after this)

Toon Link:
Better F-throw and B-throw

Wario:
DA and F-air damage buffs, D-smash sucks less

Metaknight:
N-air weak hitbox damage ->3 (total damage both hits is now 15%, as opposed to 19%)
Up-smash final hit damage ->5, kbg ->133 (actually is a vertical KO move now)

Fox:
F-throw special offensive collision damage ->5 (total damage ->8, minor reward increase for bypassing shield, also relevant in doubles and the IC matchup)
What about adding more lasers to Fox's U-throw and B-throw?[/collapse]
 

IYM!

Smash Lord
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this "!" is part of my nick (Chile)
i started to see Brawl+ videos and the mod looks good, the game was balanced with buff and little others fix

Sadly i have found out, that Brawl + has died, it gave to me something of a sorrow, the Hack looks well and enterteining, but died through the fault of small acceptance and of Brawl -


I do not want that this happens to BBrawl, indeed I like this Hack much, All here have done a great effort in correcting the weakness and increasing the stregt of every character, and the most important thing, haver limited to metaknight, mow that character is a good fighter, no a broken one.

i am not sure if BBrawl are popular here in Chile, but if you want i can upload some matches of BBrawl in my youtube chanel , in order to make it more acepted in Chile, if you want you can send mesome matches
 

ぱみゅ

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I propose sharing replay files.... Someone might be able to upload some, eventually...
 

Last Elixir

Smash Cadet
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West Des Moines, Iowa
I can start saving and uploading BBrawl videos from decent replays that I have, though I'm not sure how much justice I'd do to the mod, as I'm not exactly a pro gamer at this in the first place.

Do I need to do anything to the files that I save from Brawl to put them on YouTube?
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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You need a copy of Brawl and you need to actually play the replays on your BBrawl game while using recording equipment to create video files that you can put on youtube.

It's a tedious process. The tedium of recording footage is the main reason why it isn't done more.
 

overgamer

Smash Ace
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Oh I got a question for this project. Are the banana locks removed? I mean, Diddy banana locks, Zss Banana lock on Diddy, etc?

Edit: oh nevermind, just went to website to find the anwser.
 

ぱみゅ

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Other than side events, none is consistent. I might make a big one for our National Tournament, specially if I got the host in june/july/august...
 

ParadOxymoron

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
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New York, NY
I love what you guys are doing here. It's like you're applying the business strategies of Blizzard to the beautiful game of the backwards Nintendo, and I think it can only make a better game. However, though I love the mod, there are a few things that make me feel a little uncomfortable when I introduce it to my friends when I'm trying to present it as a perfectly legitimate variation of the game, even though it's made by incredibly skilled amateurs. There are some things that I just feel are kind of unprofessional. Back in Balanced Brawl 1, it was the way you ruined Temple. Now it's the way you ruined Spear Pillar.

I know your intention with the Spear Pillar stage was to make as many options as available as possible, but when you're playing in Classic and have no way to choose the stage, it's impossible to tell whether you're on the stage where you can go down or not, and it's INCREDIBLY frustrating to think that everything's cool, only to lose a stock. I find myself never wanting it to be the stage where the bottom isn't there, because honestly, that's the whole point of Spear Pillar. If I wanted to play a map without something down there, I'd just play something else. I'm not opposed to maximizing the potential of stages, but removing the lower half of one isn't going to maximize anything. It might make it more competitively viable, but my point is that Spear Pillar, a stage with tons of crazy ****, is never going to be one of those stages, and if I fall off because Cresselia (or whoever it is who means it's safe, I don't even know which Pokemon corresponds to which stage and I shouldn't be bother to remember) or whoever hasn't shown up yet and I can't tell, and I think I'm fine and lose a stock over this one more time, I'm going to flip out.

My point, though, is more about what you guys should focus on as your general philosophy than a layer on a single stage. Your focus shouldn't be to make Balanced Brawl perfectly competitive, because people who want to play Brawl so that they can be competitive about it are just gonna play Brawl. They've already got a Metaknight-game that they can understand. What makes Balanced Brawl so amazing is that I can play it with my friends who have only played Brawl a few times and don't even know how to do a smash attack, OR I can bust it out amongst my most competitive buddies, and they're all enriched for the experience. It's when all the wonderfulness of balanced competitive play comes together with good plain whacky Brawl fun that the true wonder of Balanced Brawl happens. The reason why casual players don't care that Brawl isn't balanced is because it doesn't affect them. But it can't hurt them if the characters are balanced. And when they're -perfectly- balanced, then the competitive players can have a great time too.

But please don't ever sacrifice the fun in the name of the competitiveness. If I had my way, you guys would balance out all the final smashes, too—start with reducing the duration of Super Sonic until it no longer takes either some luck or a lot of skill to not lose two stocks to it and go from there—because even though Final Smashes aren't competitive, they're still fun as hell. And it shows me that you guys do sacrifice good, strong casual fun in the name of soulless competitive fun when you make a change like removing the bottom half of Spear Pillar, because what little competitive viability you'd give to the stage by doing that, which I'd argue is functionally 0 because what right-minded competitive player would actually play on Spear Pillar anyway, is vastly outweighed by the downside of having a primarily casual player like me or one of my friends become so needlessly frustrated over having their beloved stage be so crudely fractured, all in the name of yet another Battlefield.

~

So, that's my main point. But as far as the characters go:

I liked Ivysaur a lot better when he could Vine Whip multiple times back in Balanced Brawl 1.0. Did you only get rid of that because the computer looked silly trying it over and over again? I know that Ivysaur has other ways of recovering now, but I just liked how allowing him to Vine Whip multiple times made him so much less susceptible to stupid screwups, the likes of which no other character ever has to deal with (except I guess Olimar, but even then Olimar's double jump does a much better job than Ivysaur's at setting himself up to use his Up+B to recover). Maybe you should change it so you at least get two tries? I think that that would be a very good compromise.

(Do it to Olimar, too. Why not? Like he can do it as many times as he wants, but every time he does it and doesn't latch onto the edge, the Pikmin at the end falls off the chain. So that you can do it on the ground and he'll just fall right back down, but if you do it on the edge you lose a Pikmin. That'd be awesome!)

I beat Intense with no continues as Wolf in Balanced Brawl. I wasn't able to do that with any of the characters in regular Brawl. (Although as much of a blast as he is to play, objectively I think he (and Fox—I can't seem to do it with Falco) might be a little bit _too_ mobile. I mean, his quadruple jump is just ridiculous.) Either way, thank you for making this mod so that I would have the opportunity to accomplish that with a powerful character whom I actually liked!

All my $0.02. I would be very interested to hear your guys' responses.
 

IYM!

Smash Lord
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My point, though, is more about what you guys should focus on as
your general philosophy than a layer on a single stage. Your focus shouldn't be to
make Balanced Brawl perfectly competitive, because people who want to play Brawl so
that they can be competitive about it are just gonna play Brawl. They've already got a
Metaknight-game that they can understand. What makes Balanced Brawl so amazing is that
I can play it with my friends who have only played Brawl a few times and don't even
know how to do a smash attack, OR I can bust it out amongst my most competitive buddies,
and they're all enriched for the experience. It's when all the wonderfulness of
balanced competitive play comes together with good plain whacky Brawl fun that the true
wonder of Balanced Brawl happens. The reason why casual players don't care that Brawl
isn't balanced is because it doesn't affect them. But it can't hurt them if the
characters are balanced. And when they're -perfectly- balanced, then the competitive
players can have a great time too.

But please don't ever sacrifice the fun in the name of the competitiveness.
If I had my way,
First of all .... welcome to SWF ParadOxymoron, i hope you enjoiments, your stay
here, an learn a lot of good things :)


i am agree with you, the competitive play is good, and sometimes is frustating
see how many "n00bs" stages are in the game, but, sometimes i get tired of play
Brawl in the same way ( 3 stock, 8 minutes, in FD, BF, SV, and the rest of "legal"
stages) and i start to play like a n00b.

I go to rules menu and i put on all items, and chose a banned stage to fun, and the
result is SO fun. i do it with my friends too, we are 4, so is perfect to play with
explosives, pokeballs, Final smashes, and all crazy items in game :bee:

would be Instead of removing to the pokemons huviesen reduced his extreme force, of
this form, the stage would serve like counterpick, and also it would serve to have
n00bs battles good keep some of those stages, but, dont make it ridiculously "n00b",
for example i will take spear pillar, maybe, would be better if, you,
instead of removing to the pokemons, you will reduced his extreme force, of this form,
the stage would serve like counterpick, and also it would serve to have n00bs matchs

you guys would balance out all the final smashes
PLEASE DO IT, the FS are VERY unbalanced,

for exampe

Falco > Wario > Bowser> Mario. i can give some ideas, but only if you want BBrawl people.
 

A2ZOMG

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Ivysaur and Olimar may have problems, but recovery isn't the biggest issue for them except in specific matchups. The Pokemon Trainer and Olimar are generally agreed to be high end characters, so they don't really need to become much better at this point.

Falco can't jump out of SideB, but he can walljump out of Up-B and SideB.

Most people here agree Wolf is the best character in this build of Balanced Brawl, but at the same time people like me also believe his current status is acceptable because he doesn't outright dominate any particular matchup. His SideB buff is very good, but primarily for boosting his recovery, which was generally considered to be his main overall weakness.
 

caninepikmin432

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Oct 18, 2010
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My question is, what do we need to install BBrawl? Is Gecko OS and HBC required? And my Wii doesn't have internet, do we need internet? I've been trying to install BBrawl for about a week, and it still hasn't worked. Does anyone have anything that they can offer for advice?
 

A2ZOMG

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You just need an empty 2GB SD card. Download the file package that has boot.elf, private, DATA, gameconfig.txt. Put those files and folders in your empty SD card. Run Brawl. Go to Stage Builder (make sure all custom stages are deleted). This triggers boot.elf and automatically runs Gecko OS.

You do not need to have previously installed HBC or Gecko OS anywhere else.
 

ParadOxymoron

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tl;dr version pls
Basically, I want them to balance out the Final Smashes (at least a little, because I honestly think that it wouldn't take more than tweaking of a few numbers on the ones that are the most ridiculously over- or under- powered in order to bring things to a level of reasonableness, where every character's Final Smash should, if used properly, guarantee at least one KO, but never two stocks from a single player) and strive to make the game as fun as possible for casual players as well as competitive players, because I think the way Balanced Brawl increases your levels of enjoyment if you just want to play the game as the party game it was created to be with your friends, in addition to rounding vBrawl out into a more competitively balanced fighting game, is its greatest selling point.

The Wolf/Olimar/Ivysaur stuff was just things that I'd noticed while trying out all the characters, and A2ZOMG pretty much answered all my questions there. Thanks.

And thank you for the warm welcome, IYM! I've been a Smash addict for as long as I can remember, and I'd love to be a help to the BBrawl community in any way I can. :)
 

caninepikmin432

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Ok, thanks for the info. But, in the info on another thread, it said that Smashstack was needed. Do I need that? and I'm sorry for piling so much onto you, but if i have more than one texture hack for a stage, lets say final destination. If I have 2 texture hacks for that stage, how will the game respond?
 

MonkUnit

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The game will only read STGFINAL.pac , meaning you can only have one stage texture on a stage unless you use the stage expansion code.
 

ぱみゅ

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StackSmash is the stage builder thing, so is included in the Download.

And Oxy, the only way we can make this game "Balanced" is by playing it on high level, thus, competition is needed. As more people plays it at higher level, we have more info taht we can correct in order to get that "Balance" the project is looking for.
 

ParadOxymoron

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And Oxy, the only way we can make this game "Balanced" is by playing it on high level, thus, competition is needed. As more people plays it at higher level, we have more info taht we can correct in order to get that "Balance" the project is looking for.
Well, I know. I understand the goal of the project. But before people can play Balanced Brawl on a higher level, they need to play it on any level, and there are so many more people who play Brawl casually than there are people who play it competitively. Catering to that market is the only hope Balanced Brawl has of ever going mainstream, which is ideally what I'd want to happen.
 

A2ZOMG

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Yeah, now that you mention it, it's probably underestimated how much influence the casual community has on Smash in general.

Catering to things like final smashes and items last time I heard was a low priority, but it definitely would be interesting to consider, even if they don't ultimately get incorporated in competitive play.
 

dansal

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It's hard to balance final smashes like PK starstorm, warioman, and landmaster with other final smashes with more conventional effects like link's or marth's.
 

ParadOxymoron

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But whether or not it would be feasible (which it totally would be, because Final Smashes are just one more move on characters they've already spent thousands of hours on), can we all agree that it would be awesome if AA and Thinkaman (they're doing the coding, right? sorry, I've been lurking for a while, but I don't really know anybody) balanced out the Final Smashes? Because I love the single player of this game, and I prefer Balanced Brawl to Brawl because it makes me feel like I'm not using a cheap character. But when the items are cheap, and the cheapest item of all to get is the smash ball, but on Mario you just kind of miss while Sonic and the Star Foxes get pretty much an instant win (if you know how to use a Landmaster), it kind of defeats the purpose.

If there were a version of single player mode that didn't have items then all my problems would be solved, but there's not a mode like that because items are fun, and they're what the designers of this game intended us to play it with (even though they obviously at least gave us the option not to). But I feel like not editing them at all when they are imbalanced or poorly designed is just not going as far as this project could.

Balancing the characters is more important than balancing the final smashes, pokemon, assist trophies and items (which are all in the same design space), but it seems like over the past few years you guys have done a pretty solid job at the characters. And if all you did was remove Ressetti and Nintendogs, you'd be making it a better game, because I love assist trophis, but I'm pretty sure nobody actually likes it when they show up.

So is it time to move on to the next step yet, or not?
 

dansal

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I think they said they would update it, but it'd take longer because of the lack of tournament results.
 
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