Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[NovaRyumaru]

I use his u-tilt quite often really, decent edge guard and flows well from a sour spotted dash attack.

As for the double post, whoops.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Y button is where it is at. And while I agree mostly with what you say A2ZOMG, I don't agree with the sideB being poor. You compare it to G&W's Fsmash - but it has larger range and Ness can get an Fsmash in if it hits.

Larger range doesn't matter when it's easily powershielded on reaction and then punished. G&W's Smashes have the advantage of being chargeable and harder to powershield or punish on reaction. Seriously, try to tell me that 20 frames of startup and 36 frames of ending lag isn't awful. Anyone can run halfway up to Ness, powershield, and punish him when he uses PK Fire.

And besides, G&W's Smashes kill earlier anyway as I recall.

BBrawl purposefully tries not to change the moves themselves but more the damage and knockback they do. Yes, Ness has a bad pressure game, and has to rely on punishing and predicting more than other characters of his size and speed, but I don't think this means we should edit move timings. Rather we should simply increase the damage that he does until we see him winning a proportionate amount of matches. And I don't think it'd require much - his Bair and Bthrow are already brilliant and he has several other moves which are brilliant for punishing mistakes.

His F-air and his dashgrab are his only moves that are brilliant for punishing mistakes (assuming again that it's an opponent making subtle spacing errors, and not just randomly asking to be F-smashed). I'm not saying the rest of his moveset can't be landed, but it won't be landed nearly as often as those two moves since his range and speed in general is bad (or more like his range is one of the worst in the entire game, and his speed is only average). Basically from what I'm hearing from you, we're going to make Ness extremely boring by making his F-air do 23% or his pummel do twice as much damage. Sounds like a great idea.

BBrawl at any rate has already changed moves extremely drastically. Ike's SideB, Ganondorf's D-tilt, and Yoshis SideB are among changes that are MUCH more significant than what I'm suggesting right now. And then also Luigi's fireball got a timing change that makes it pretty darn annoying. In fact I'd argue that buffing Mario's B-throw (not to mention his kill power in general) is perhaps one of the biggest competitively useful changes in the entire game. I don't see what is so wrong about buffing PK Fire or Ness's F-smash to be safe moves. It's not like Ness automatically gets Metaknight's pressure game when you give him that, and he will still have trouble fundamentally hitting with those moves.

Although I agree that there should be as few changes to timing as possible, as few as possible is defined to me as "several characters in this game are sorely lacking speed on very specific moves that would otherwise help make them competitively viable"

 

[I LAG]

so what do i need to download if i have a PAL brawl?

 

[Linkshot]

In the first link, in the list, there is one for PAL.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Although I agree that there should be as few changes to timing as possible, as few as possible is defined to me as "several characters in this game are sorely lacking speed on very specific moves that would otherwise help make them competitively viable"

I agree with this very much so, a good example being Captain Falcon, love playign with him but getting the kill is hard due to the lag time on his finishers. Or in the case of vs Meta Knight almost impossible to even hit due to Meta's nearly obscene attack speed. x_x

Of course another lovely change I would adore seeing is if his short hop was a tad lower to the ground, would make the Knee much better a finisher on characters that prefer to stay on the ground.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

this is a game where it isn't trying to be different from vbrawl but to make it play similarly. A lower shorthop would be a change in physics which would make an awkward change between vbrawl and bbrawl. If you're determined to play a game where captain falcon is "faster", play brawl+

 

[NovaRyumaru]

this is a game where it isn't trying to be different from vbrawl but to make it play similarly. A lower shorthop would be a change in physics which would make an awkward change between vbrawl and bbrawl. If you're determined to play a game where captain falcon is "faster", play brawl+

I know, just spouting off something that would help Falcon a lot. As for B+, I find that game an abomination. Goes too much back to 64 in the fact of if a faster character hits you, you're getting comboed to death. And for some characters, such as Yoshi, the hitstun scales too much against them and doesn't scale for them at all. I do like the shield stun though, makes it harder to play defense the whole time. But that's about it.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You can turn the hitstun code off, or limit it if you don't really care about playing at tournies or just feel like playing for fun

BTW my friends and I were just playing around for fun and he started using DDD and we're trying to figure out whether or not his d-throw to d-tilt is inescapeable. It seems like sometimes it'll miss just as a fluke, but we feel that it's a bit overpowered when you figure he has a good tech chase now and also when you consider that he forces people to approach and has a massive and quick grab range.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

You can turn the hitstun code off, or limit it if you don't really care about playing at tournies or just feel like playing for fun

BTW my friends and I were just playing around for fun and he started using DDD and we're trying to figure out whether or not his d-throw to d-tilt is inescapeable. It seems like sometimes it'll miss just as a fluke, but we feel that it's a bit overpowered when you figure he has a good tech chase now and also when you consider that he forces people to approach and has a massive and quick grab range.

Aye, he is pretty good now, it sees like his attacks come out a tad stronger too. Do miss the massive hammer from B+ though, yay tripping all grounded targets. xD

 

[I LAG]

i've just played BB for like the last 3hrs and i dont like the nerfs on the higher tier chars.
and links arrows are total bull**** now, my friend gimped me soooo many times with them.

i think i prefer a more broken brawl where everyone has **** combos but brawl+ physics and nerfs on the high tier chars make it trash

so i think i'll stick with normal brawl

 

[MK26]

So you don't like the Brawl mods because...you can't defeat your friends with your favourite characters?

Get better.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

i've just played BB for like the last 3hrs and i dont like the nerfs on the higher tier chars.
and links arrows are total bull**** now, my friend gimped me soooo many times with them.

i think i prefer a more broken brawl where everyone has **** combos but brawl+ physics and nerfs on the high tier chars make it trash

so i think i'll stick with normal brawl

Well find someone else to main in BB.
I main Yoshi even in Vanilla so I like his changes.

Really the only top tier characters that got nailed particularly hard were Dedede and Falco, with the sever reduction of chain throwing which they needed. CGing is a fail tactic. Effective, but lame.
Also, if anyone would like to exchange friend codes On BB PM me.

 

[xatm092]

I main Marth in both.

lolnochanges

And Nova, at the moment vbulletin is set to limit sig sizes, you can't get that big an image to be fully shown, sorry.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

And Nova, at the moment vbulletin is set to limit sig sizes, you can't get that big an image to be fully shown, sorry.

Dang, know what the maximum height is so i can scale it down for here?

 

[deepseadiva]

i've just played BB for like the last 3hrs and i dont like the nerfs on the higher tier chars.
and links arrows are total bull**** now, my friend gimped me soooo many times with them.

i think i prefer a more broken brawl where everyone has **** combos but brawl+ physics and nerfs on the high tier chars make it trash

so i think i'll stick with normal brawl

This actually a legitimate post and what I believe will be a common opinion with BBrawl.

And Nova, at the moment vbulletin is set to limit sig sizes, you can't get that big an image to be fully shown, sorry.

It's not the vbulletin, it just this skin for the forum ("Revolution"). Bigger sigs can be seen by switching the forum skin to "Smash Blue" or the other at the bottom of the page.

I'd still resize it though so everyone else with Revolution can see the full thing. The limit is 125px high by 550px wide.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Thank you for the advice Meno, Card re-sized accordingly. Need to get it edited though, don't play Marth enough to give him a place on my card anymore.

*Edit*

Also, out of curiosity what is the buffer for BB? It seems a little higher than Vanilla.

 

[dansal]

Are thinkaman and/or amazingampharos looking for any specific matchups right now? I want to help out with this.

 

[MK26]

This actually a legitimate post and what I believe will be a common opinion with BBrawl.

I can't think of any other way to say this, but...tough luck to the top tier mains. It's the nature of any patchable game that if characters are too good, they will have to be weakened. If the designers are good (which, in this case, they are), then these weakenings won't result in the original top being weaker than the rest of the cast. Your inherent advantage has just gone down the drain, so maybe you'll actually have to work to beat people who are as good as you. Is that too foreign a concept?

And anyway, if you mained MK because you like MK, then you'll keep playing him in BBrawl regardless. But if you mained him because he was a top tier character, shouold you have been maining him in the first place?

EDIT: I sound kinda harsh :/

 

[deepseadiva]

(It's fine )

If you're winning with an easy character, why switch at all to a game that makes that harder?

A lot of people are going to see it that way.

 

[A2ZOMG]

i've just played BB for like the last 3hrs and i dont like the nerfs on the higher tier chars.
and links arrows are total bull**** now, my friend gimped me soooo many times with them.

i think i prefer a more broken brawl where everyone has **** combos but brawl+ physics and nerfs on the high tier chars make it trash

so i think i'll stick with normal brawl

Honestly you should try more characters...there are actually quite a few new combos in this game that are pretty broken.

ROB's D-throw -> U-smash is my favorite. Mario could always Jab Jab cancel D-smash, and it is EXTREMELY lethal in this game, not to mention his Jab cancel B-throw. Samus's random combos into D-tilt and Charge Shot and F-smash are also a lot more lethal.

 

[Linkshot]

I fear "I LAG" suffers from my cousin's mentality:

"I can **** without fear in vBrawl, but now I have bad matchups in bBrawl. Of course I'm going to stick with my 10% gimps."

 

[bleyva]

(It's fine )

If you're winning with an easy character, why switch at all to a game that makes that harder?

A lot of people are going to see it that way.

i think most people will go to whatever game gives their main the best possible chances at winning.

i mean, im not gonna lie; if a new brawl was made where the only change was that all of wolf's moves were one-hit KOs, i might consider playing it competitively

 

[Linkshot]

Even though I don't main Falcon, I would play a game where he was the only buffed character, but he was buffed so hard that he's S Tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My personal opinion is that if you're going to be true to Nintendo, Samus or people from the Zelda series are most deserving of S tier. Or hell, Ike deserves to be higher ranked than Marth because from their respective games, Ike is clearly more powerful, and in almost every way a better protagonist.

Or at any rate, make Nintendo's most iconic characters S tier. I find Mario and G&W fitting that kind of bill, and this is also the reason why I do not care for Wolf in this game, when you consider his role in StarFox is much more obscure compared to say...Bowser from the Mario series.

 

[CloneHat]

My personal opinion is that if you're going to be true to Nintendo, Samus or people from the Zelda series are most deserving of S tier. Or hell, Ike deserves to be higher ranked than Marth because from their respective games, Ike is clearly more powerful, and in almost every way a better protagonist.

Or at any rate, make Nintendo's most iconic characters S tier. I find Mario and G&W fitting that kind of bill, and this is also the reason why I do not care for Wolf in this game, when you consider his role in StarFox is much more obscure compared to say...Bowser from the Mario series.

Look at this thread's title. Spell the first word.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Look at this thread's title. Spell the first word.

And your point is? Does it really matter that I'm responding to something off-topic? Unless you have a legitimate point, you can go back to the Brawl+ topics.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

My personal opinion is that if you're going to be true to Nintendo, Samus or people from the Zelda series are most deserving of S tier. Or hell, Ike deserves to be higher ranked than Marth because from their respective games, Ike is clearly more powerful, and in almost every way a better protagonist.

Or at any rate, make Nintendo's most iconic characters S tier. I find Mario and G&W fitting that kind of bill, and this is also the reason why I do not care for Wolf in this game, when you consider his role in StarFox is much more obscure compared to say...Bowser from the Mario series.

That would kind of go against the point of a Balanced Brawl. Although more iconic characters you would think would be better, why not try to put everyone in S tier so the game is fairly balanced?

Although putting them all in the same tier via tweaks may be a little over idealistic as there's bound to be characters more balanced than others still. All that can be done is trial and error 'til what works best is found. ^_^

 

[dabridge]

And your point is? Does it really matter that I'm responding to something off-topic? Unless you have a legitimate point, you can go back to the Brawl+ topics.

Oh, nice comeback with the Brawl+ topics, really neat. I'll give you a 10 out of 10 because you outsmarted him so bad.

...

I liked vBrawl, I really do. The tripping, the infinite CGs, the broken characters, everything. Why do I like it? Well, to show off how ridiculous it is. Whenever I play someone in vBrawl, weather it's a newbie or a torney champ, they get so mad that it makes them want to quit. Because, if it was for skill alone, they would have won. Reason is, I never play vBrawl, yet I continue to win. All I play is Brawl+ and Melee, and it seems that that's all I need to win, does that make sense? Then, I see BBrawl and notice the changes it's made... which aren't many. Meaning, in theory, the game still doesn't require much skill.

When I look at vBrawl, I notice a lot of placement in tiers feel terribly wrong. Which characters exactly, I'm not going to say. I don't want to start arguments where someone yells in my face all the reasons why x character is at the bottom. I couldn't care less. For example, Melee's tier list. Look at Melee's first few tier lists and today's tier list. Completely different. This is one thing I don't like about BBrawl, it seems to base changes on a tier list that might not even be true. Maybe they didn't, heck, they probably based changes on matchups, but it seems to me that everywhere I look for changes the lower tier characters get more attention than the top tier. Yes, the bottom tier characters seem like thrash, but they might not be. Brawl hasn't been out for as long as Melee has, so it's tier list might not even be right, and BBrawl may be buffing characters that don't need it. But, what do I know.

I notice that BBrawl keeps stating that it's Balanced (kill me for stating the obvious here, but whatever), but... I myself don't see it very balanced at all. I've been watching the BBrawl threads for a while now, so I know for a fact that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. And... for some reason, when someone tries to prove the creators of BBrawl wrong, they seem to just shut down any valid points, give out all the reasons why the changes were made and how they help balance in theory, and say to prove them wrong with videos. I've seen this posted more than twice, but I don't want to look for the posts. I'm sure they wouldn't deny doing this.

Meta-Knight: In vBrawl, he is clearly broken, because of countless reasons. I was disappointed to see that some things that make him overpowered never got changed, only very few. For one, his recovery. 5 jumps, 2 glides. Clearly, one of the best, if not, the best in the game. Next, his power. TP on all his sword attacks, lagless, and with very high potential to gimp. Some even to kill at low percentages (one of the changes in BBrawl). Not punishable. In vBrawl, all moves seem to be slowed down. MK bearly seems affected by this, so while all the other characters are waiting to pull their swords out of the ground, MK can just throw a nair in their face, no risk. MK's best points are, safety, recovery, and early kills (gimping/high knockback). Do you know how many characters in the roster would benefit so much by just having ONE of these attributes?

I'm going to stop now. I seem to be bashing BBrawl way too much, which isn't what I was going for at all. Like I said, I like vBrawl, and it would be nice to have it balanced, but it looks like BBrawl is going at it all wrong, and don't seem to want to change. If it never changes, it will never be balanced, period. What changes? Mainly:

- Increasing/decreasing hitbox size
- Speeding up/slowing down certain animations
- Fixing main problems some characters have (see, MK, Ganon/Link and their horrible recovery), however gameplay changing they may be.

In tournament play, lower tier characters get thrashed because of their weaknesses. For example, in theory, a very good MK player could keep Ganon from ever touching him, making all of his "buffs" useless. This is why he needs safe moves, which BBrawl seems to be denying him, and because of it's persistance of not wanting to change his playstyle too much, he will never change and stay a low tier.

I understand the goal of not wanting to change vBrawl much, heck, this was also a goal in Brawl+ too, but it's just not possible to make it balanced without heavily changing playstyles. You might want to reconsider, either your goals, or your name.

 

[Eldiran]

I notice that BBrawl keeps stating that it's Balanced (kill me for stating the obvious here, but whatever), but... I myself don't see it very balanced at all. I've been watching the BBrawl threads for a while now, so I know for a fact that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. And... for some reason, when someone tries to prove the creators of BBrawl wrong, they seem to just shut down any valid points, give out all the reasons why the changes were made and how they help balance in theory, and say to prove them wrong with videos. I've seen this posted more than twice, but I don't want to look for the posts. I'm sure they wouldn't deny doing this.

A quick explanation -- the reason you see arguments about who's better than who so much, is because now it is actually a question. This is because now the characters are all ~about~ as powerful as eachother. That was BBrawl's goal, and it succeeded. Optimally, every character would exactly as good as the other, but that is both impossible to do, and to agree upon. You will never not see people arguing about balance unless some characters are blatantly broken and others blatantly suck. And I mean blatant -- even more than Metaknight vs. Ganondorf.

Regarding your first point about vBrawl not requiring skill... it isn't true. If you continue to win, then what exactly do you have that your opponents lack?

 

[dabridge]

A quick explanation -- the reason you see arguments about who's better than who so much, is because now it is actually a question. This is because now the characters are all ~about~ as powerful as eachother. That was BBrawl's goal, and it succeeded. Optimally, every character would exactly as good as the other, but that is both impossible to do, and to agree upon. You will never not see people arguing about balance unless some characters are blatantly broken and others blatantly suck. And I mean blatant -- even more than Metaknight vs. Ganondorf.

Regarding your first point about vBrawl not requiring skill... it isn't true. If you continue to win, then what exactly do you have that your opponents lack?

Knowledge of the game's concept, which makes no sense because the more experienced players should to be able to counter it. For example, when I play vBrawl, I think "camp, gimp" and surprisingly, it works. Because there doesn't seem to be a clear, completely working counter against this strategy unless you're godly good. Why does camping offer so little risk with a lot of reward? I don't know, this is why I play Brawl+ instead. There are good ways to counter camping. Notice the plural.

I see what you mean on how every character can't be as good as the other, but... why not? The game's goal is balance, which should eventually be obtained. Denying some characters of something they really need to be a force to be reckoned with makes no sense. In SSB64, there was a lot of balance. Sure, Pika was broken, and Link/Samus sucked, but everyone else stood in the same level somewhat. Because they had something good to offer. I still see some characters without any clear advantages, like Sonic or DK, as an example (again, I don't want to hear the reasons why they do have advantages, chances are I already know/don't think they're good enough). Why are some characters just mediocre with nothing of value to fight with high tiers?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the odd thing about skill is that it doesnt equal experience. ive played melee since the game came out, so i obviously have a lot of experience right? but the difference is i dont have skill of the game, even though i have a pretty thorough knowledge of the game. while some skills are inherent in all smash games, some are specific to the games. when it comes to brawl and melee, you cant just transfer all the skill over. the underlying fact that they are the samse series means that certain concepts are the same, which older and more experienced players of smash have. the newer generation of brawl players sometimes lack this core understanding, so even though they know the game better, someone who has more experience can beat them without having played brawl much. does that mean you have less skill then them just cause you dont play the game? or does your own knowledge of mechanics carry over and it transfers over as enough skill to make you more skilled? this is something i have been looking at for a long time having played all 3 smash games, and honestly as far as i can tell, in brawl the better player USUALLY wins, barring stupid random stuff. and what i mean is the better player in brawl, cause melee skill isnt the end all be all determination of the winner in all smash games.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That would kind of go against the point of a Balanced Brawl. Although more iconic characters you would think would be better, why not try to put everyone in S tier so the game is fairly balanced?

Which is why I support this project.

I'm just spouting random personal bias in response to the idea that people prefer a less balanced game in favor of the characters that they use. Which is something everyone should feel to some extent if there are characters you particularly like.

Although putting them all in the same tier via tweaks may be a little over idealistic as there's bound to be characters more balanced than others still. All that can be done is trial and error 'til what works best is found. ^_^

Very true.

Oh, nice comeback with the Brawl+ topics, really neat. I'll give you a 10 out of 10 because you outsmarted him so bad.

I just checked his post history and a large quantity of his posts were from there. I don't appreciate people giving me BS.

I still see some characters without any clear advantages, like Sonic or DK

Sonic indeed is sorely lacking a reliable KO move, since none of his KO moves can be reliably set up before the opponent can defend on reaction, and for that matter, they are weaker than average. My proposal to solve that problem is to increase the knockback of one of his throws so that it has KO potential, even if it means killing at 165% with B-throw (which may sound pretty high, but that is approximately when vBrawl Mario's B-throw could start killing most characters). Sonic's damage racking game is decent enough however, and he can get dashgrabs with moderate ease, so as I was saying, the main thing he's lacking is a reliable KO move.

Donkey Kong on the other hand is pretty up there, and pretty close to par with the top of the metagame, although I do think he could probably use a small change to something like N-air to help increase his safety as he is descending from the air.

 

[Linkshot]

For the record, every change in bBrawl was based on the 666 matchups.

 

[dabridge]

I just checked his post history and a large quantity of his posts were from there. I don't appreciate people giving me BS.

The point of "eff off" could have been stated without shutting him down because he supports Brawl+, which seems like it was the only reason why you said that.

Sonic indeed is sorely lacking a reliable KO move, since none of his KO moves can be reliably set up before the opponent can defend on reaction, and for that matter, they are weaker than average. My proposal to solve that problem is to increase the knockback of one of his throws so that it has KO potential, even if it means killing at 165% with B-throw (which may sound pretty high, but that is approximately when vBrawl Mario's B-throw could start killing most characters). Sonic's damage racking game is decent enough however, and he can get dashgrabs with moderate ease, so as I was saying, the main thing he's lacking is a reliable KO move.

This is what I mean, why does he have to settle with something moderate? How does this help him exactly with high tiers? Even if he gets a good kill throw, high tiers will know to avoid his grabs like the plauge. What will he have then? His spring spike which only works on snail-slow recoveries?

I seriously still don't get this logic... People seem to be stuck with the idea that if a character was once bad, he will never be good. That's not true. Look at Brawl+'s Ganondorf. After almost a year of testing he has tools to help him deal with high tiers and not making him overpowered, and oh, look, his playstyle isn't drastically changed either...

I hate having to use the point of "look at Brawl+" cause I know you guys hate it anyway. The thing this though, we already went through all the mistakes, I don't see why you guys don't want to learn from them until you experience them yourselves.

 

[Eldiran]

Knowledge of the game's concept, which makes no sense because the more experienced players should to be able to counter it. For example, when I play vBrawl, I think "camp, gimp" and surprisingly, it works. Because there doesn't seem to be a clear, completely working counter against this strategy unless you're godly good. Why does camping offer so little risk with a lot of reward? I don't know, this is why I play Brawl+ instead. There are good ways to counter camping. Notice the plural.

So your strategy is superior, rather than skill, is what you're saying. However, if an opponent camps back, it's still a competition of skill. Alternately, they might be skilled enough to overcome your strategy with an inferior one.

It's still a competition of skill, but yes, strategy plays a big part. I think your complaint here is that camping is lame. Which yes, I agree it is. But that doesn't mean skill isn't a, or even the primary, factor in vBrawl or BBrawl.

I see what you mean on how every character can't be as good as the other, but... why not? The game's goal is balance, which should eventually be obtained. Denying some characters of something they really need to be a force to be reckoned with makes no sense. In SSB64, there was a lot of balance. Sure, Pika was broken, and Link/Samus sucked, but everyone else stood in the same level somewhat. Because they had something good to offer. I still see some characters without any clear advantages, like Sonic or DK, as an example (again, I don't want to hear the reasons why they do have advantages, chances are I already know/don't think they're good enough). Why are some characters just mediocre with nothing of value to fight with high tiers?

I think you might have misunderstood me a bit. I'm saying the entire cast will never be -exactly- as good as eachother. They'll just reach that "standing in the same level somewhat" area. Some closer than others.

It's my understanding that "standing in the same level" and "having something good to offer" is what BBrawl accomplishes, and I can tell you disagree. If you want to be convinced otherwise, you'll need to either give BBrawl a try with other competent players, or you'll have to give the makers the benefit of the doubt when they present their theorycraft. Keep in mind they -have- tested this theorycraft, but theory is pretty much the medium of forums like these, so it's all you'll see until you test it yourself.

 

[dabridge]

So your strategy is superior, rather than skill, is what you're saying. However, if an opponent camps back, it's still a competition of skill. Alternately, they might be skilled enough to overcome your strategy with an inferior one.

It's still a competition of skill, but yes, strategy plays a big part. I think your complaint here is that camping is lame. Which yes, I agree it is. But that doesn't mean skill isn't a, or even the primary, factor in vBrawl or BBrawl.

The key of Smash games, the way I see it, seems to be adaptability. Changing between one strategy to another. In vBrawl, camping and gimping seem to be the most effective, because they have no clear weaknesses. There doesn't seem to be other good strategies that work as well as these two, which is what confuses me. Why does staying with the same strategy give so much reward? This is what I mean by skill, a skilled player should have a way to counter the strategy, and not try to outcamp the other, because then the game turns into a get-lucky-and-hit-the-opponent game, which isn't very skillful in itself.

I think you might have misunderstood me a bit. I'm saying the entire cast will never be -exactly- as good as eachother. They'll just reach that "standing in the same level somewhat" area. Some closer than others.

It's my understanding that "standing in the same level" and "having something good to offer" is what BBrawl accomplishes, and I can tell you disagree. If you want to be convinced otherwise, you'll need to either give BBrawl a try with other competent players, or you'll have to give the makers the benefit of the doubt when they present their theorycraft. Keep in mind they -have- tested this theorycraft, but theory is pretty much the medium of forums like these, so it's all you'll see until you test it yourself.

I'll agree, I haven't played it with anyone competitive (everyone around here loves Brawl+ and wouldn't be caught dead playing vBrawl or BBrawl), but as I tested BBrawl, there are some changes that just seem to make no sense. When I first learned about the competitive side of smash, I went and tested each reason why x was overpowered and y was useless, and it made sense. When I go test the BBrawl changes, x in theory, should be better, but the changes don't help the main problem.

This is just my opinion, maybe because I don't know how to play BBrawl in a tourney setting, but I'd like to ask why these changes:

Yoshi's F-air: It has already been proven, by our dear Ganondorf, that high-risk and hard-to-land moves are pretty useless in BBrawl. Why was the grounding element added?

Sonic's up-b spike: Seems to work on very slow recoveries, which, oh look, none of the top tiers have, but a lot of lower tiers do.

Ganon's dtilt: The intention seems to be to give Ganon an broken strategy of a chaingrab, from what I saw in the showcase video and tested, but it doesn't work. Even if it was a guaranteed chaingrab, Ganon's metagame shouldn't focus on one broken strategy.

Luigi's B special: The speedup makes no sense, at all. Okay, sure it helps Luigi's metagame. I understand that. But why was it given to Luigi, when a speedup could have benefited another character greatly? (see Ganon)

Right now, I can't think of anything else. I'll ask other stuff later.

 

[Mit]

In this whole current debate, no one seems to be considering ability to read your opponent. I think that's like 85% of Brawl's entire high-level gameplay. I don't know if either of you are considering that as skill or strategy (I would think skill is pure ability to control your character and use ATs effectively, while strategy is your overall plan of attack [or not attack, like camping]), but if you don't have that and your opponent does, it doesn't matter how much you camp, you won't win.

Bait and punish, predict attacks, react correctly and score hits. If you can do this well you will rack damage and kill much faster than your opponent. Otherwise, you have to be relying on your opponent to make mistakes. Because really, if someone wants to in Brawl, it's entirely possible to continually evade all attacks from an opponent with just about any character. If you aren't baiting and punishing or predicting attacks, you're just charging at your opponent and hoping your strategy works, which it may work sometimes, but other times it won't.

If your opponent can predict your strategy though, bait you into using something, predict it, and then punish you, though? You're screwed.

Ally is my prime example for bringing this up. The man could probably take out tons of high level players with his Captain Falcon. Whenever he plays Falcon it perfectly shows off how incredibly good he is at baiting and punishing and predicting his opponent's attacks. Because really, that's all you can do with Falcon. He has no strategies, no approaches, no camping ability, and yet, it's still technically possible to win if you can predict your opponent well enough.


This is a central point in Brawl's gameplay, and that's why even if some character's might not seem too good (like they don't have that one great thing about them cited before), certain people with the right mindset, who can bait and effectively punish with the character, can still make them good.

It's really what brings a lot of characters closer to being balanced in BBrawl. "Link still sucks because of his recovery", and yet, I think if Izaw got a hold of BBrawl and started playing it a lot, he would win tournaments, because the man is a monster with the character, and with such an enhanced killing ability in BBrawl, not to mention those arrows, he would be absolutely lethal onstage. He requires a ton of skill, but if you can acquire that skill, and have a great ability to predict your opponents and mindgame them into deadly traps, you're pretty much unstoppable unless your opponent can do the same.


Anyways, my two cents. I think Brawl+ tries to bring a lot of the skill back into it (although, it's still kind of like Melee easy mode because you do a lot of similar movements and tactics without the need to l-cancel or wavedash and whatnot), and may be why some like it more and still think BBrawl/vBrawl is fatally flawed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is what I mean, why does he have to settle with something moderate? How does this help him exactly with high tiers? Even if he gets a good kill throw, high tiers will know to avoid his grabs like the plauge. What will he have then? His spring spike which only works on snail-slow recoveries?

His damage racking is good, and he has a stupid ability to just run away from stuff. If Sonic were given anything brokenly good, that would particularly unbalance him since he's fundamentally a pretty gay character.

It's not that hard for him to get a grab at any rate, when most of the time the best strategy against Sonic is just shielding because his KO moves are so awful.

I seriously still don't get this logic... People seem to be stuck with the idea that if a character was once bad, he will never be good. That's not true. Look at Brawl+'s Ganondorf. After almost a year of testing he has tools to help him deal with high tiers and not making him overpowered, and oh, look, his playstyle isn't drastically changed either...

Really? Because Mario and Samus are easily top tier in this game...just sayin.

 

[Mit]

Yoshi's F-air: It has already been proven, by our dear Ganondorf, that high-risk and hard-to-land moves are pretty useless in BBrawl. Why was the grounding element added?

Well, Yoshi's fair isn't a terribly risky move. Yoshi can pull off any aerial and easily float away to safety afterward. A friend of mine mains Yoshi, and while he doesn't use this fair all the time, he does know how to punish with it, and keeps a look out for certain situations to set it up. And if Yoshi hits with it, and you're at any decent percentage, he's going to hit you with a fully charged smash, and it's going to kill you. Yoshi was never that bad of a character though, and this wasn't meant to be a large change for him (more supplementary). Allowing him to rack damage much faster is what makes him more dangerous (Yoshi combos son), not to mention egg-braking and the recovery of his second jump through the side-b egg as well.

Sonic's up-b spike: Seems to work on very slow recoveries, which, oh look, none of the top tiers have, but a lot of lower tiers do.

Again, not that gigantic of a change for him, but it does have it's uses. Against horrible recoveries like you said, but also against characters who might have good recoveries, but have found themselves so far away from the level, or having used some parts of their recovery already, that they only have one path to get back to the stage, and can't be arsed with something like attacking the spring or airdodging it. Most characters can gimp or edgehog people in these situations, but the spring opens up some new possibilities. It's also useful for being that ever-present danger falling towards you. This is a bit harder to explain, but if someone's doing something like an airdodge, if they didn't time the airdodge perfectly, the spring is still going to be falling ever slowly through them, and as soon as the airdodge ends it can still hit them. There are other situations that don't involve airdodges where this comes into play, can't really think of them or explain them though. The spring's definitely not useless though, and is certainly still an underdeveloped aspect of Sonic's BBrawl metagame. Also, example of a decent use against a high tier: hitting a Wario with it right after he jumps off his bike. Requires some pretty specific timing and prediction of when he's gonna jump off, but it can be done, and Wario's dead if he gets hit with it (and doesn't have a huge fart saved up).

Ganon's dtilt: The intention seems to be to give Ganon an broken strategy of a chaingrab, from what I saw in the showcase video and tested, but it doesn't work. Even if it was a guaranteed chaingrab, Ganon's metagame shouldn't focus on one broken strategy.

I don't know about "broken strategy", you do know it's a tech-chase right? Totally dependant on your ability to predict your opponent's move. It does suck a bit though, as playing with Ganon is kind of like gambling. You've really gotta hope you can predict your opponents reactions to rack massive damage with it, although, if they get to a high enough damage percentage, just techchasing once into a grounding down-b can end the stock.

Luigi's B special: The speedup makes no sense, at all. Okay, sure it helps Luigi's metagame. I understand that. But why was it given to Luigi, when a speedup could have benefited another character greatly? (see Ganon)

I would assume because speeding it up doesn't dramatically change that much about him, and was a specific thing that would help some of his toughest matchups. It's harder to evaluate something like that with a character like Ganon seeing as how all of his matchups were bad.

 

[00000]

I liked vBrawl, I really do. The tripping, the infinite CGs, the broken characters, everything. Why do I like it? Well, to show off how ridiculous it is. Whenever I play someone in vBrawl, weather it's a newbie or a torney champ, they get so mad that it makes them want to quit.

Which tourney champs did you beat that got so mad that they quit?