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Ganon's dtilt: The intention seems to be to give Ganon an broken strategy of a chaingrab, from what I saw in the showcase video and tested, but it doesn't work. Even if it was a guaranteed chaingrab, Ganon's metagame shouldn't focus on one broken strategy.
I don't know about "broken strategy", you do know it's a tech-chase right? Totally dependant on your ability to predict your opponent's move. It does suck a bit though, as playing with Ganon is kind of like gambling. You've really gotta hope you can predict your opponents reactions to rack massive damage with it, although, if they get to a high enough damage percentage, just techchasing once into a grounding down-b can end the stock.
You guys do realize that Jab is guaranteed after a Dtilt on every single character, right? That means Choke>Dtilt>Jab is a guaranteed combo at any percent on like 30 characters that dues 29% fresh. AFTER you hit them with that once or twice, you switch to tech chasing, which is sooo easy to do. If they roll away, wizkick. If the do anything else, shield grab or pivot grab for a quick 25%, thanks to Ganon's huge pummel buff. This was not meant to be broken, it was meant to continue Ganon's role as the "all-or-nothing" character in a balanced way.
In this whole current debate, no one seems to be considering ability to read your opponent. I think that's like 85% of Brawl's entire high-level gameplay. I don't know if either of you are considering that as skill or strategy (I would think skill is pure ability to control your character and use ATs effectively, while strategy is your overall plan of attack [or not attack, like camping]), but if you don't have that and your opponent does, it doesn't matter how much you camp, you won't win.
Bait and punish, predict attacks, react correctly and score hits. If you can do this well you will rack damage and kill much faster than your opponent. Otherwise, you have to be relying on your opponent to make mistakes. Because really, if someone wants to in Brawl, it's entirely possible to continually evade all attacks from an opponent with just about any character. If you aren't baiting and punishing or predicting attacks, you're just charging at your opponent and hoping your strategy works, which it may work sometimes, but other times it won't.
If your opponent can predict your strategy though, bait you into using something, predict it, and then punish you, though? You're screwed.
Okay, I was probably too general with the whole camping strategy. Yes, whenver I play vBrawl is camping, and finding a way to hit my opponent without getting hit back, probably by fooling him into a set up. Baiting and punishing, as you say. Whenver I say it requires less skill is because, well, like you said, skill is more being able to control your character. vBrawl is mostly strategy, which because because of it's slow speed, are easy thought of without needing to know at what frame your attack ends.
Ally is my prime example for bringing this up. The man could probably take out tons of high level players with his Captain Falcon. Whenever he plays Falcon it perfectly shows off how incredibly good he is at baiting and punishing and predicting his opponent's attacks. Because really, that's all you can do with Falcon. He has no strategies, no approaches, no camping ability, and yet, it's still technically possible to win if you can predict your opponent well enough.
This is a central point in Brawl's gameplay, and that's why even if some character's might not seem too good (like they don't have that one great thing about them cited before), certain people with the right mindset, who can bait and effectively punish with the character, can still make them good.
Like 2 guys that beat a lot of tourneys here. They were laughing so hard when they beat me in vBrawl (they hate Brawl+) that they thought I could never beat them. Then I trained for like 3 days vBrawl and I managed to beat them without any trouble. The fact that I could do this in vBrawl but not Brawl+ or Melee doesn't make sense.
...
Really, I do wish the best of luck on this project. You guys opened my mind a little and I might give BBrawl another chance. I'll try it again though on the next release, because I still think this has a long way to go.
You guys do realize that Jab is guaranteed after a Dtilt on every single character, right? That means Choke>Dtilt>Jab is a guaranteed combo at any percent on like 30 characters that dues 29% fresh. AFTER you hit them with that once or twice, you switch to tech chasing, which is sooo easy to do. If they roll away, wizkick. If the do anything else, shield grab or pivot grab for a quick 25%, thanks to Ganon's huge pummel buff. This was not meant to be broken, it was meant to continue Ganon's role as the "all-or-nothing" character in a balanced way.
And it still doesn't solve his problem that you can run up to Ganondorf, shield, and if he tries to grab, spotdodge or run away on reaction and punish. Things like that are why there needs to be more speed buffs to various characters, particularly Ganondorf.
Like 2 guys that beat a lot of tourneys here. They were laughing so hard when they beat me in vBrawl (they hate Brawl+) that they thought I could never beat them. Then I trained for like 3 days vBrawl and I managed to beat them without any trouble. The fact that I could do this in vBrawl but not Brawl+ or Melee doesn't make sense.
1) this is because these two probably have silly reflexes or tech skill, which will make you win in melee or brawl +. By training you learned strategy, not just a combo or tech, and could out-smart them, thus beating them in brawl.
I have intense reflexes but subpar tech skill. I am, however, very quick with my mind (moreso in soft, tranquil environments), so I extremely prefer vBrawl over Melee (competitively), and since bBrawl is a raw step up from vBrawl (as opposed to Brawl+ being making vBrawl have a different style), I prefer bBrawl the most
However, I'm always willing to MM people in AllBrawl, due to knowing a lot of the "abnormal" things of the game, such as the unique physics of every item, generic knockback and angle, etc, and I have the quick reflexes to put up with something random (last I checked, I could consistently hit 12 frames)
How do I know 12 frames?
Kirby Super Star's Quick Draw. Best reflex tester around. It shows your time in raw frames.
For training reflexes, I suggest WarioWare Inc: Mega Micro's One-Chance Mansion.
I have intense reflexes but subpar tech skill. I am, however, very quick with my mind (moreso in soft, tranquil environments), so I extremely prefer vBrawl over Melee (competitively), and since bBrawl is a raw step up from vBrawl (as opposed to Brawl+ being making vBrawl have a different style), I prefer bBrawl the most
However, I'm always willing to MM people in AllBrawl, due to knowing a lot of the "abnormal" things of the game, such as the unique physics of every item, generic knockback and angle, etc, and I have the quick reflexes to put up with something random (last I checked, I could consistently hit 12 frames)
How do I know 12 frames?
Kirby Super Star's Quick Draw. Best reflex tester around. It shows your time in raw frames.
For training reflexes, I suggest WarioWare Inc: Mega Micro's One-Chance Mansion.
For bait-and-punish, I use Superstar's The Arena (without abilities or healing).
The bosses (for the most part) have a pattern, but it still concentrates the effectiveness of the punishment.
The hardest to punish is Wham Bam Jewel. You can't shoot the stars as soon as you get them, so you have to run from the next very wide attack, jump, then shoot.
This helps to add more depth to the punishment.
The hardest to bait is Galacta Knight (seriously, he's completely broken. He flies into your face. You can duck under his attacks, but there one shockwave that will just obliterate you. Definitely very good Meta Knight practice, hahahaha)
This helps to use your shield more effectively for baiting.
For bait-and-punish, I use Superstar's The Arena (without abilities or healing).
The bosses (for the most part) have a pattern, but it still concentrates the effectiveness of the punishment.
The hardest to punish is Wham Bam Jewel. You can't shoot the stars as soon as you get them, so you have to run from the next very wide attack, jump, then shoot.
This helps to add more depth to the punishment.
The hardest to bait is Galacta Knight (seriously, he's completely broken. He flies into your face. You can duck under his attacks, but there one shockwave that will just obliterate you. Definitely very good Meta Knight practice, hahahaha)
This helps to use your shield more effectively for baiting.
I need to work on my bait and punishing skills with Yoshi, I do put up a great pressuring game though usually.
Btw, what's the buffer on Balanced Brawl? still 10 frames like in vanilla or is it different? Hoping lower then it'd be hard to jab with ike and get perfect shielded off the side into a nair. >_o
And it still doesn't solve his problem that you can run up to Ganondorf, shield, and if he tries to grab, spotdodge or run away on reaction and punish. Things like that are why there needs to be more speed buffs to various characters, particularly Ganondorf.
While I definitely think Ganon has far more options in that situation than just going for the Grab, and I don't think that run-to-Shield renders Ganon as helpless as you're implying, I'm curious what speed buff you think would be the most beneficial to him in that situation. Which of Ganon's moves would "solve" that situation if it were faster frame-wise?
While I definitely think Ganon has far more options in that situation than just going for the Grab, and I don't think that run-to-Shield renders Ganon as helpless as you're implying, I'm curious what speed buff you think would be the most beneficial to him in that situation. Which of Ganon's moves would "solve" that situation if it were faster frame-wise?
Of course, dropping Warlock Pawnch to instant would remedy any issue... although maybe just a little much.
would also take away the lols on the rare occasion you can actually hit it.
While I definitely think Ganon has far more options in that situation than just going for the Grab, and I don't think that run-to-Shield renders Ganon as helpless as you're implying, I'm curious what speed buff you think would be the most beneficial to him in that situation. Which of Ganon's moves would "solve" that situation if it were faster frame-wise?
Firstoff, it is important to understand that Ganondorf has no attacks that are safe on block except for U-smash and autocanceled B-air, both of which are not viable on over 70% of the cast due to horrible hitboxes. What shielding does essentially limits his real options for creating openings to zero. This is hurt largely by the fact that his shieldgrab has no range, so he either has to dashgrab, or Flame Choke, both of which are easily spotdodged on reaction.
The change I would propose is reducing the landing lag of N-air...because frankly, it's pretty stupid that Ganondorf's N-air is unsafe to land. What reducing the landing lag of N-air would do is give something that Ganondorf fundamentally lacks:
A real poke and approach that is safe on block.
As long as you have at least one decently applicable attack that is consistently safe on block, you can create openings. Ganondorf's N-air is not particularly hard to space, but usually useless due to the fact that it's weak, and has bad landing lag.
Ganondorf's Jab should also be sped up by a few frames, because it is in fact the ONLY Jab in this game that gets punished by spotdodges. Compare it to Ivysaur's B-air, which does the same damage, but has infinitely more range and safety in general.
More radical, but equally helpful changes would be giving Ganondorf a good shieldgrab, or a B-air that is allowed to hit short characters.
I would agree with this, along with speeding up Ganon's jab a few frames.
The landing lag on Falcon's epic f-air being a little less would be great too. Really not sure what for certain Falcon needs to be able to effectively contend with the high tier characters short of pretty much rewriting his priority.
Also, would removing hitlag or w/e when the knee connects be altering the physics too much? wouldn't really change the game play much but the short stall before the launch is a little annoying as has robbed me of a few games on VBrawl in the matchmaking modes 'cause it'd time out JUST before they'd die. D:
When you look at the risk/reward of Captain Falcon's F-air, it's really pays off, because if they manage to avoid the sweetspot, they usually end up with a sourspot. If you really feel like playing captain falcon with all these changes you suggest (I assume you play him for fun). I can easily make you a .pac with PSA. Just PM me if what I say is correct.
When you look at the risk/reward of Captain Falcon's F-air, it's really pays off, because if they manage to avoid the sweetspot, they usually end up with a sourspot. If you really feel like playing captain falcon with all these changes you suggest (I assume you play him for fun). I can easily make you a .pac with PSA. Just PM me if what I say is correct.
Actually for a while i mained him, but it didn't take long to realise how hard of a time he has fighting anyone that can outrange him, especialy with a disjointe dhitbox. He even has trouble fighting most anyone that has higher priority.
Usually i'm about average with him, but have had a few games where I was just in the zone and dominated. Such as beating a stock out of my friend's samus in about 5 second.
N-air, u-tilt, b-air >jump> d-air. Haven't been able to get into that kind of rythm with him though in ages, would probably help if I got in the habit of shield grabbing once and a while.
But people like Marth, Meta, or just about anyone that can outrange me/priority me on quick hits. Sure I may be able to get a bit of damage on them but they easily swat away nearly all my killing blows.
*edit*
Yay, just noticed my flag is no longer a Smash Newb.
When you look at the risk/reward of Captain Falcon's F-air, it's really pays off, because if they manage to avoid the sweetspot, they usually end up with a sourspot. If you really feel like playing captain falcon with all these changes you suggest (I assume you play him for fun). I can easily make you a .pac with PSA. Just PM me if what I say is correct.
Falcon's fair is fine. If you main him you know when you can sweetspot, and when you want to sourspot you know how to short hop cancel it or you know how much time you have in the air with it.
So, I've got some news on that Links/Lucas glitch. Playing randoms with a friend today, we got Link, Lucas, and Corneria.
We were fighting on the right side of the stage with the wall. I hit him into the air (towards the wall) while he was doing something, causing him to buffer a zair. I just so happened to throw a PK fire at him while doing this, and apparently I landed that timing. (yeah, apparently it works with zairs too)
As soon as I hit him with it, the screen tore out of control all over the place. Just, graphics tearing everywhere. There were some spots you could see around, and I (as Lucas) managed to hop to the upper level and to the left side of the stage. Shortly after doing this, Link magically appeared out of my head, and landed safely back on the level.
Although yeah, he took like 120% damage or something.
I think this is definitely going to need to be fixed in the next version :\ That was the first time I played the matchup after hearing about this glitch, and without even trying I triggered it (to a worse outcome than usual, I think it's because I obliterated him into another dimension through the Great Fox).
Falcon's fair is fine. If you main him you know when you can sweetspot, and when you want to sourspot you know how to short hop cancel it or you know how much time you have in the air with it.
So, I've got some news on that Links/Lucas glitch. Playing randoms with a friend today, we got Link, Lucas, and Corneria.
We were fighting on the right side of the stage with the wall. I hit him into the air (towards the wall) while he was doing something, causing him to buffer a zair. I just so happened to throw a PK fire at him while doing this, and apparently I landed that timing. (yeah, apparently it works with zairs too)
As soon as I hit him with it, the screen tore out of control all over the place. Just, graphics tearing everywhere. There were some spots you could see around, and I (as Lucas) managed to hop to the upper level and to the left side of the stage. Shortly after doing this, Link magically appeared out of my head, and landed safely back on the level.
Although yeah, he took like 120% damage or something.
I think this is definitely going to need to be fixed in the next version :\ That was the first time I played the matchup after hearing about this glitch, and without even trying I triggered it (to a worse outcome than usual, I think it's because I obliterated him into another dimension through the Great Fox).
I've been paying attention to this as a link player and I didn't think it was so bad before because Links grab isn't used that much due to the lack of "safeness"
But It this works on TL/Links zair, that's LITERALLY ******** because those are extremely common moves that both characters use to space.
Still though will probably rarely happen due to the way zair is used (very close to ground). However, even I am highly interested now
(Personally, I blame the hyrule shield. (Don't ask why, inside joke for anybody who gets it))
=====================================
God I know AA and Thinkman really don't want to update BB. Its the LAST thing on their minds, but I wonder if they will come out with a patch to fix this or if they will fix it in the next set IF THEY CAN AT ALL. (I doubt they will)
Both of them have been unusually quiet on the subject.
I don't know about Brawl+ DJC, but I do know melee DJC quite well (DJC fair was 90%+ of Ness's game in melee, and I was a long-time Ness main). I don't think it would fit Brawl Ness very well. Double jump dair is pretty good in Brawl and an approach (though few people seem to realize it), and Ness's recovery is WAY better in Brawl mostly because of the "removal" of DJC (double jump fair is really hard for a lot of characters to hit through if the Ness plays it smart). Double jump uair is also one of Ness's main killing tricks; I don't think DJC bair would be a good substitute given how much time you spend in the air in Brawl.
Ness is seriously not bad in Bbrawl, but he's also really not that bad in normal Brawl either and no one believes that either (grab release is really stupid, but otherwise, he's pretty decent). Oh well; Ness has received too much time being talked about anyway.
Hmm... after playing around on BB a bit I've noticed a few things.
1: Sheik actually got worse in terms of her 1, 2 killing blows? o-O
2: Falcon, still lacks priority and his attacks come out slow. Sure he got some new tricks but didn't really fix what he needs. I personally like the PSA from B+ of him aside from the obsurd hitbox on the knee. xP
He may still be a little low on priority but his attacks come out fast enough he can combo somewhat, such as n-air, u-air, KNEE. But yeah, the current falcon in BB needs some tweakage, especially in his attack speed if that's possible.
3: PT, I must say i'm quite surprised at how good he is now after actually playing him a while. Ivysaur comboing into spike marth style=win, and they switch out fast enough you can swat them away with a quick smash and switch out. They can move as soon as the pokeball pops open which is quite nice.
*Off topic*
Also, if anyone knows how to make my Sig bigger let me know via pm please, my smashh card gets cut in half.
Sheik has the best kill move in the game: transform to Zelda. Her fsmash is a net buff since now she can actually rely on it, and it does a lot of damage with both hits. Of course, if you want to try to kill with her with moves other than her down special, her usmash is as good as always (good luck hitting; at least she has a good DACUS).
Well, that's what Captain Falcon is in Brawl. Captain Falcon, design wise, is a heavyweight who trades the usual high range and priority for mobility. That's not exactly the way he ended up playing in the games he was good in so some people don't realize it, but in Brawl with him not having those true combos anymore, it's how it plays out. As I'm sure we all know, that didn't exactly work out for him in standard Brawl, but it's pretty unique so we decided to run with it in Bbrawl and see if we could make it work. I am not exactly going to roll out the "Captain Falcon for top tier" banner, to say the least, but I'm pretty sure he's a whole lot better now and probably somewhere in the spectrum of viable. If you really need some form of priority at all, I'd point out that Falcon Kick has actually semi-decent priority, and now it's actually safe on hit (a big deal, Bbrawl Falcon Kick is the best Falcon Kick ever because of that). Also, if you're having trouble getting in and failing at basic fake-outs with your mobility (sometimes you can't get that sort of thing working), aerial Raptor Boost is a pretty decent trick. You can air control a pretty big amount while he's swinging so you can do stuff like aerial Raptor Boost into shields and retreat as you attack, making it pretty good pressure (remember no helpless means you can double jump before hitting the ground if you want). I mention the second one specifically because most people don't notice how much better aerial Raptor Boost is on a casual inspection of Captain Falcon, but it's actually pretty handy.
Yeah, PT rocks no doubt. I can't say I've ever seen fair/bair on Ivysaur (presumably bair?) leading into dair, but it sounds like fun stuff.
Strange. I don't remember Sheik being significantly better then Zelda where using Zelda is useless. Or Zelda/Sheik being really broken or at least polarizing in VBrawl. Sounds like a needless nerf. I understand that you guys want to encourage Sheik/Zelda by not buffing them, but were nerfs really neccessary (Besides Sheiks F-tilt nonsense)?
Falcon+ is mid at best. He gets ***** too much by range, combos, and edgeguards to be OPed.
The main reason Sheik's fsmash was nerfed kill-power wise was so we could get away with making it link. If it linked with no kill power nerf, Sheik would have a fast, very effective kill move that would essentially remove her only weakness. Hmm, replace "smash" with "air" on that, and you are reminded a bit of another game... In any case, I don't consider Sheik nerfed in Bbrawl; the things that were improved on her weren't exactly trivial.
Regardless of the merits of Captain Falcon in Brawl+, I'm pretty sure the way he falls like melee Falco isn't very Brawl-like (maybe this was changed in a newer build; I don't know). Making him like that for Bbrawl isn't even close to on the table.
Also another thing I noticed. Meta Knight, still cheap as hell. No lag on any aerials meaning he can still gimp you to death with ease, or just sh combo you with f-airs off the side. Or better yet get out of Yoshi's d-air just by firing off any aerial.
If you don't let Meta Knight gimp you (which is pretty reasonable really), he has some more serious trouble killing. Meta Knight still seems pretty good, but he got the heaviest nerfs out of anyone who was nerfed (though the only other character I consider at a non-trivial net negative is Snake anyway). I mean, doing ridiculously quick aerials is kinda what Meta Knight is all about, and no one wins if we "balance" the fun out of him and make him bottom tier as "retribution" for how good he is in standard Brawl. With Yoshi in particular, you can expect to survive to radically higher percentages than Meta Knight by combining your excellent survivability with his poor KO ability. Of course you can expect him to have some pretty easy to land attacks to make up for that, though his poor air speed should make it risky for him to stay in the air where he has those great aerials (I hear Yoshi has a pretty good anti-air projectile).
You can turn the hitstun code off, or limit it if you don't really care about playing at tournies or just feel like playing for fun
BTW my friends and I were just playing around for fun and he started using DDD and we're trying to figure out whether or not his d-throw to d-tilt is inescapeable. It seems like sometimes it'll miss just as a fluke, but we feel that it's a bit overpowered when you figure he has a good tech chase now and also when you consider that he forces people to approach and has a massive and quick grab range.
It may be matchup dependent and DI dependent even in those matchups. I expect some characters can wiggle out while others can't (I really doubt Luigi is even reasonable to hit, of course). King Dedede seems pretty powerful yeah, but given how significant dthrow was to him in standard Brawl (where he wasn't overpowered in general so much as broken in a bunch of specific matchups and matchup-stage situations), it seems like a good direction to let him keep a good dthrow. Let us know how King Dedede's matchups seem to be evolving though; it's really a good thing to see this explored since it is a fairly important change that makes a former high tier fairly unpredictable for us.
I'm really not sure what you mean by him forcing approaches though. Waddle Dees? Could you elaborate?
Aye, he is pretty good now, it sees like his attacks come out a tad stronger too. Do miss the massive hammer from B+ though, yay tripping all grounded targets. xD
i've just played BB for like the last 3hrs and i dont like the nerfs on the higher tier chars.
and links arrows are total bull**** now, my friend gimped me soooo many times with them.
i think i prefer a more broken brawl where everyone has **** combos but brawl+ physics and nerfs on the high tier chars make it trash
There really weren't many nerfs to high tiers, unless by that you mean "Meta Knight and Snake". I mean, we didn't nerf Marth or Mr. Game & Watch; our standard of balance was pretty high. Of course, any combo ability either of those had wasn't nerfed except Meta Knight Mach Tornado shenanigans I guess so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If balance just isn't your cup of tea, you really like Meta Knight, and you really want to play the game where he's as good as possible relative to the rest of the cast, I'm not sure what to say really. The game is better when Meta Knight and, say, Pokemon Trainer are closer in worth, but if you really want to just win as easily as possible with Meta Knight, I can say that this game is really not for you. I'm sure your friend with Link enjoyed having a chance though (no way he gimped you more than you gimped him; Link's arrows are good, but not as good as Meta Knight's dair).
Thank you for the advice Meno, Card re-sized accordingly. Need to get it edited though, don't play Marth enough to give him a place on my card anymore.
*Edit*
Also, out of curiosity what is the buffer for BB? It seems a little higher than Vanilla.
Any data is helpful really, though data about the less used characters would be more useful of course. Basically, any matchups involving...
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Wario
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Lucario
Sonic
is somewhat more helpful than with the others. Of course, that's a long list; data about how you do with your best characters will be more useful than anything (since we can expect the best performance from that).
Honestly you should try more characters...there are actually quite a few new combos in this game that are pretty broken.
ROB's D-throw -> U-smash is my favorite. Mario could always Jab Jab cancel D-smash, and it is EXTREMELY lethal in this game, not to mention his Jab cancel B-throw. Samus's random combos into D-tilt and Charge Shot and F-smash are also a lot more lethal.
I'm pretty sure dthrow to usmash with R.O.B. isn't a true combo (maybe against Bowser at 0% or something). I don't think the second one is either. They do kinda position well and give you some frame advantage to work with, of course, so it can be hard to avoid and is very landable with prediction (both things listed). I'm sure you know this quite well; I'm just saying it so no one gets confused, thinks us mad, and worries about R.O.B. having an insane dthrow of death.
R.O.B. dthrow to utilt is a true combo at low to mid damage in a lot of matchups though.
i think most people will go to whatever game gives their main the best possible chances at winning.
i mean, im not gonna lie; if a new brawl was made where the only change was that all of wolf's moves were one-hit KOs, i might consider playing it competitively
And most people picked mains in the first place because they were good at winning (i.e. high tier). This is one of our challenges; we're basically trying to convince people to ignore their personal interest in favor of the greater good... though in the long run they may benefit anyway if a former low tier fits their playstyle more than their current high tier main.
Of course, people don't really think long term...
People who just main a character more independent of value should hopefully be easy sells though since most of those people are going to main characters who saw improvements (I think a fairly small percentage of MK and Snake mains main them for irrational reasons).
Oh, nice comeback with the Brawl+ topics, really neat. I'll give you a 10 out of 10 because you outsmarted him so bad.
...
I liked vBrawl, I really do. The tripping, the infinite CGs, the broken characters, everything. Why do I like it? Well, to show off how ridiculous it is. Whenever I play someone in vBrawl, weather it's a newbie or a torney champ, they get so mad that it makes them want to quit. Because, if it was for skill alone, they would have won. Reason is, I never play vBrawl, yet I continue to win. All I play is Brawl+ and Melee, and it seems that that's all I need to win, does that make sense? Then, I see BBrawl and notice the changes it's made... which aren't many. Meaning, in theory, the game still doesn't require much skill.
When I look at vBrawl, I notice a lot of placement in tiers feel terribly wrong. Which characters exactly, I'm not going to say. I don't want to start arguments where someone yells in my face all the reasons why x character is at the bottom. I couldn't care less. For example, Melee's tier list. Look at Melee's first few tier lists and today's tier list. Completely different. This is one thing I don't like about BBrawl, it seems to base changes on a tier list that might not even be true. Maybe they didn't, heck, they probably based changes on matchups, but it seems to me that everywhere I look for changes the lower tier characters get more attention than the top tier. Yes, the bottom tier characters seem like thrash, but they might not be. Brawl hasn't been out for as long as Melee has, so it's tier list might not even be right, and BBrawl may be buffing characters that don't need it. But, what do I know.
I notice that BBrawl keeps stating that it's Balanced (kill me for stating the obvious here, but whatever), but... I myself don't see it very balanced at all. I've been watching the BBrawl threads for a while now, so I know for a fact that I'm not the only one that thinks this way. And... for some reason, when someone tries to prove the creators of BBrawl wrong, they seem to just shut down any valid points, give out all the reasons why the changes were made and how they help balance in theory, and say to prove them wrong with videos. I've seen this posted more than twice, but I don't want to look for the posts. I'm sure they wouldn't deny doing this.
Meta-Knight: In vBrawl, he is clearly broken, because of countless reasons. I was disappointed to see that some things that make him overpowered never got changed, only very few. For one, his recovery. 5 jumps, 2 glides. Clearly, one of the best, if not, the best in the game. Next, his power. TP on all his sword attacks, lagless, and with very high potential to gimp. Some even to kill at low percentages (one of the changes in BBrawl). Not punishable. In vBrawl, all moves seem to be slowed down. MK bearly seems affected by this, so while all the other characters are waiting to pull their swords out of the ground, MK can just throw a nair in their face, no risk. MK's best points are, safety, recovery, and early kills (gimping/high knockback). Do you know how many characters in the roster would benefit so much by just having ONE of these attributes?
I'm going to stop now. I seem to be bashing BBrawl way too much, which isn't what I was going for at all. Like I said, I like vBrawl, and it would be nice to have it balanced, but it looks like BBrawl is going at it all wrong, and don't seem to want to change. If it never changes, it will never be balanced, period. What changes? Mainly:
- Increasing/decreasing hitbox size
- Speeding up/slowing down certain animations
- Fixing main problems some characters have (see, MK, Ganon/Link and their horrible recovery), however gameplay changing they may be.
In tournament play, lower tier characters get thrashed because of their weaknesses. For example, in theory, a very good MK player could keep Ganon from ever touching him, making all of his "buffs" useless. This is why he needs safe moves, which BBrawl seems to be denying him, and because of it's persistance of not wanting to change his playstyle too much, he will never change and stay a low tier.
I understand the goal of not wanting to change vBrawl much, heck, this was also a goal in Brawl+ too, but it's just not possible to make it balanced without heavily changing playstyles. You might want to reconsider, either your goals, or your name.
If you don't like standard Brawl, you won't like Bbrawl probably. I could have told you this from the beginning. Thinkaman and I are both of the opinion that standard Brawl is an excellent game; that's why it was worthy of the massive time investment to make it even better. Of course we're going to be conservative in what we change; we actually respect the game and its design. To us, Sakurai is a name worthy of respect, not laughter, to put our views into perspective. If this sounds totally alien to you, I doubt this project could make sense to you.
I will say, about how we balanced things, we didn't just take the SBR's word on how good characters are. We have our own ideas on balance, formulated independently, that happen to highly agree with each other. The fact that we reached independent and similar conclusions strengthened our resolve that we, in fact, have some insight. In some cases, we feel the community is pretty right (guys, Diddy Kong is pretty high tier). In other cases, we feel they miss the mark (Ness is not anywhere near that bad). In any case, it's about more than just how good they are in a static game; it's about how their worth is flexible with changes to them. Think of each character as having a bunch of "knobs" that you can turn up or down to move them on the tier list. Think of each one as having an indefinite scale as well, and think of adjusting any one character as changing every other character as well. I think we have a really good feel for how things tend to play out; we're both extremely academic about the game and generally have good game design intuition. We also tested our changes pretty thoroughly to see how they played. Of course, future developments could, and in fact inevitably will, show us that we have some characters too powerful and others not powerful enough. Balance is an iterative process, and we're ready to handle that situation. In fact, the whole reason for our long period on new releases isn't so much that we think our current release is perfect (I do think it's pretty good though!) as we understand how metagames work and are giving it time to mature.
You make it sound like Meta Knight is actually broken in standard Brawl. Blatantly top tier yes, but it's not like other characters can't effectively fight against him. Of those three attributes you listed, one of them is now effectively a weakness (the killing part). I mean, he can still gimp, but it's a lot harder to kill outright and even set up for the gimps with the weakened dsmash and Shuttle Loop (those moves are insanely important to Meta Knight).
In theory, a good Zero Suit Samus main could win matches with nothing but walking and jab1. Jab1 hits on frame 1 so it could beat out pretty much everything, including Meta Knight's entire moveset. In fact, if Meta Knight tries to do anything and you aren't in range, powershield and punish with jab1. He has absolutely nothing that can even hit a perfect Zero Suit Samus (or Squirtle). It's not going to happen; even the best players are very, very far from perfect.
I have never seen a 3 stock 0% against a good Ganondorf even in standard Brawl and doubt I ever will. He can land hits; it's just a lot harder for him than other characters. Hence the fact that he hits harder than anyone else and has probably the best follow-up game out of hits out of the entire cast. If anyone other than Ganondorf was rewarded that much for hitting, they'd be instantly the best character in the game and probably broken. The game is about risk-reward-cost. I think I've explained this before so I'll keep it brief. You can get away with having a low chance of landing anything (everything is high risk) if the reward is sufficiently high it's okay. If you hit me 10 times and do an average of 2% per hit and I hit you once and do 20%, we're even if all else is even. If I can expect to kill you at 80% and you can expect to kill me at 140%, I'm beating you since you're 1/4 of the way to death while I'm only 1/7 of the way to death. This is the premise Ganon works on; you get hit a ton and generally get shut down, but they you suddenly make everything up really quickly and, if you do it right and predict well and such, are suddenly winning. The idea of your whole game funneling down to a fairly small number of high reward situations may not be appealing to you, which is why Ganon is far from the only character in this game, but he's there for those who want to play like that.
Testing shows Link is actually pretty good recovery or not; speaking of bad recoveries, I sure remember melee Falco pretty well, and it sure did a fine job of keeping him in low tier (Brawl Link has a better recovery than Melee Falco). I'm not seeing the issue there.
To get down to a fundamental point, characters need weaknesses, sometimes serious weaknesses. Some people get upset over us repeating this over and over again, but if we didn't preserve them, we might as well just use a custom CSS that's just one big Mario button. It's not like all the good characters are devoid of serious weaknesses in standard Brawl; just look at Snake. Extreme weaknesses lead to extreme strengths, and in the examples mentioned (Ganon and Link), they certainly were given extreme strengths.
The point of "eff off" could have been stated without shutting him down because he supports Brawl+, which seems like it was the only reason why you said that.
This is what I mean, why does he have to settle with something moderate? How does this help him exactly with high tiers? Even if he gets a good kill throw, high tiers will know to avoid his grabs like the plauge. What will he have then? His spring spike which only works on snail-slow recoveries?
I seriously still don't get this logic... People seem to be stuck with the idea that if a character was once bad, he will never be good. That's not true. Look at Brawl+'s Ganondorf. After almost a year of testing he has tools to help him deal with high tiers and not making him overpowered, and oh, look, his playstyle isn't drastically changed either...
I hate having to use the point of "look at Brawl+" cause I know you guys hate it anyway. The thing this though, we already went through all the mistakes, I don't see why you guys don't want to learn from them until you experience them yourselves.
I am going to say this simply on this one. Do not ask us to talk about Brawl+. We are aware of the project, and we have good reason to simply not want to discuss it.
So your strategy is superior, rather than skill, is what you're saying. However, if an opponent camps back, it's still a competition of skill. Alternately, they might be skilled enough to overcome your strategy with an inferior one.
It's still a competition of skill, but yes, strategy plays a big part. I think your complaint here is that camping is lame. Which yes, I agree it is. But that doesn't mean skill isn't a, or even the primary, factor in vBrawl or BBrawl.
I think you might have misunderstood me a bit. I'm saying the entire cast will never be -exactly- as good as eachother. They'll just reach that "standing in the same level somewhat" area. Some closer than others.
It's my understanding that "standing in the same level" and "having something good to offer" is what BBrawl accomplishes, and I can tell you disagree. If you want to be convinced otherwise, you'll need to either give BBrawl a try with other competent players, or you'll have to give the makers the benefit of the doubt when they present their theorycraft. Keep in mind they -have- tested this theorycraft, but theory is pretty much the medium of forums like these, so it's all you'll see until you test it yourself.
In this whole current debate, no one seems to be considering ability to read your opponent. I think that's like 85% of Brawl's entire high-level gameplay. I don't know if either of you are considering that as skill or strategy (I would think skill is pure ability to control your character and use ATs effectively, while strategy is your overall plan of attack [or not attack, like camping]), but if you don't have that and your opponent does, it doesn't matter how much you camp, you won't win.
Bait and punish, predict attacks, react correctly and score hits. If you can do this well you will rack damage and kill much faster than your opponent. Otherwise, you have to be relying on your opponent to make mistakes. Because really, if someone wants to in Brawl, it's entirely possible to continually evade all attacks from an opponent with just about any character. If you aren't baiting and punishing or predicting attacks, you're just charging at your opponent and hoping your strategy works, which it may work sometimes, but other times it won't.
If your opponent can predict your strategy though, bait you into using something, predict it, and then punish you, though? You're screwed.
Ally is my prime example for bringing this up. The man could probably take out tons of high level players with his Captain Falcon. Whenever he plays Falcon it perfectly shows off how incredibly good he is at baiting and punishing and predicting his opponent's attacks. Because really, that's all you can do with Falcon. He has no strategies, no approaches, no camping ability, and yet, it's still technically possible to win if you can predict your opponent well enough.
This is a central point in Brawl's gameplay, and that's why even if some character's might not seem too good (like they don't have that one great thing about them cited before), certain people with the right mindset, who can bait and effectively punish with the character, can still make them good.
It's really what brings a lot of characters closer to being balanced in BBrawl. "Link still sucks because of his recovery", and yet, I think if Izaw got a hold of BBrawl and started playing it a lot, he would win tournaments, because the man is a monster with the character, and with such an enhanced killing ability in BBrawl, not to mention those arrows, he would be absolutely lethal onstage. He requires a ton of skill, but if you can acquire that skill, and have a great ability to predict your opponents and mindgame them into deadly traps, you're pretty much unstoppable unless your opponent can do the same.
Anyways, my two cents. I think Brawl+ tries to bring a lot of the skill back into it (although, it's still kind of like Melee easy mode because you do a lot of similar movements and tactics without the need to l-cancel or wavedash and whatnot), and may be why some like it more and still think BBrawl/vBrawl is fatally flawed.
I would add to this that follow-ups after a hit are extremely important in Brawl and Bbrawl; there's a ton of prediction that goes on in that, and it's where a big chunk of the depth comes from. If you predict right, that hit maybe only does 4%. If you predict wrong, you eat an aerial that does another 8% and now are at a disadvantage positionally which is really just going to force you to predict again where "winning" means simply escape while "losing" means this just keeps going on. Of course, bait and punish is a great way to land that first hit, and in many ways, it's what can be going on in the middle of your follow-ups (bait the airdodge, continue the attack).
Also, don't make the mistake of confusing "skill" with "tech skill". Skill is in your brain; tech skill is in your fingers. They're pretty different.
Yoshi can cancel the start-up of his dash attack with an up smash like everyone else, but I don't think he gets any useful distance off it. If this isn't what you meant, I'll need clarification.
I've been paying attention to this as a link player and I didn't think it was so bad before because Links grab isn't used that much due to the lack of "safeness"
But It this works on TL/Links zair, that's LITERALLY ******** because those are extremely common moves that both characters use to space.
Still though will probably rarely happen due to the way zair is used (very close to ground). However, even I am highly interested now
(Personally, I blame the hyrule shield. (Don't ask why, inside joke for anybody who gets it))
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God I know AA and Thinkman really don't want to update BB. Its the LAST thing on their minds, but I wonder if they will come out with a patch to fix this or if they will fix it in the next set IF THEY CAN AT ALL. (I doubt they will)
Both of them have been unusually quiet on the subject.
We've been quiet because we've been pretty busy (especially Thinkaman; I wouldn't expect to see him post for quite a while yet). Do you know a post like this one takes over an hour to write? Consider how many massive posts we've made in the past and you might see just how much commitment this thread really is as well as the reason game developers almost never address the public like we do.
Anyway, this glitch is pretty bizarre; I think we can hardly be blamed for it. I think, based on the symptoms, that it's caused by a glitch in the hitbox mod engine itself causing the second hit of Lucas's Pk Fire in situations involving hitting someone with a hookshot out to read from some incorrect location in memory for hitbox values... which has very poor results. This only affects two matchups (Link vs Lucas and Toon Link vs Lucas) out of 666, and I don't think either make matchups anywhere close to unwinnable. We definitely want to fix this, but I doubt it will get an instant patch. Fixing it may be fairly tricky as well, to say the least.
So yeah, we take this seriously, and we aren't exactly happy over it. However, the only real thing we can do right now is sit back and wait and see how it develops and work on a fix when we can. I'm sorry; sometimes games have bugs, and sometimes they are pretty slippery. Sometimes you have to make priorities, and in this case, our pre-existing commitment to a static version of the game simply overrides this. It does suck, but in perspective it isn't that bad (I doubt it's a serious blow to the viability of Link or Toon Link), and I hope it doesn't seriously hurt anyone's opinion of Balanced Brawl.
I'm pretty sure dthrow to usmash with R.O.B. isn't a true combo (maybe against Bowser at 0% or something). I don't think the second one is either. They do kinda position well and give you some frame advantage to work with, of course, so it can be hard to avoid and is very landable with prediction (both things listed). I'm sure you know this quite well; I'm just saying it so no one gets confused, thinks us mad, and worries about R.O.B. having an insane dthrow of death.
R.O.B. dthrow to utilt is a true combo at low to mid damage in a lot of matchups though.
D-throw U-smash from my observation is landable as long as you correctly predict or react to their DI. They might be able to air dodge it, but if they do that, they risk getting regrabbed. It's one of the most ridiculous positional traps in the entire game. Although yeah, you can make it hard for him to consistently land if you DI, but you won't be punishing him significantly if he whiffs.
For example, on metaknight at like 80ish percent (maybe even slightly more factoring stale moves), I can D-throw him and U-smash him for the kill even if he DIs as long as I time Dash -> Hyphen Smash correctly. It counts as a combo in training mode meaning you cannot jump out of this.
So yeah, basically there is no other character in the game that has a better setup into a kill move from a grab besides Snake and Ganondorf (well, Ganondorf's Flame Choke has other issues that make it significantly worse, but for combo purposes, it's great). In short if ROB predicts you correctly from D-throw, you either die, or you're in for a world of hurt.
Oh yeah, I mentioned stale moves. EVERY ROB PLAYER SHOULD STALE THIS THROW. The throw keeps getting better the more you use it since stale moves makes the throw get weaker and leaves them closer to you, meaning you get more opportunities to combo into U-smash at higher and higher percents.
And this is why I personally think ROB is one of the best characters in this game. His few buffs, and the nerfs of Metaknight and Snake pretty much give him everything he could have wanted and more. No longer getting completely destroyed by MK's Up-B, D-smash, Tornado, and Snake's U-tilt is heaven for ROB, and then his U-throw killing Metaknight at like 126% is close to godly for a damage oriented character, and then getting an extremely good trap that leads into his most powerful KO move, Up-smash, really puts him way up there. Most people say he went even with Marth, who I consider the best character in BBrawl, so logically speaking, he's probably one of few characters that can try to claim to have advantage against such a significant character (Marth's main bad matchups were MK, Snake, and DDD, who I think lose to Marth in this game due to nerfs). Top 10 at minimum for this guy.
Mario's Jab Jab cancel D-smash is only blockable by space animals from what my testing has currently found (and considering that Mario originally went next to even with all of them in vBrawl, it's nothing to cry about). His Jab D-smash even is unblockable against several floaty characters. Considering reaction time and the strong slant towards trying to block in this game, and then the raw KO power of everything that Mario uses for killing in this game, it's pretty ridiculously good compared to the setups other characters have since it lands on like 90% of the cast. The only thing holding back this combo aside from someone who can jump out of it on prediction/reaction is just the fact Mario needs to know how to space his Jab really well to land the optimal hitbox on it, but I've actually landed this combo against good players (I think recently, I landed it on DSF's Marth, and it hit him before he could F-air me out of it).
I don't have the technical capabilities to test that, but if they could, it would only apply to a few D-airs since most D-airs either don't have enough range, or just are too terrible to work for that purpose.
What I do know is that it takes 25 frames (approximately the startup of G&W's Up-smash) to attack out of a hit that induces the tumble state (13 frames to air dodge), and that ROB's U-smash is only 12-13 frames in terms of startup. As for Hyphen Smashing, I'm assuming that you need to dash for no more than 6-7 frames to properly catch DI.
The only thing I don't know is the frame advantage of D-throw, as in how many frames ROB is immobile after tossing his opponent.
Just from visualizing it, I honestly don't think it takes the startup time of G&W's Up-smash to Hyphen Smash someone out of D-throw, and the leeway you get is even greater when you consider the startup of *insert aerial*
I can see ROB's D-throw ****** someone like Ike even more badly in this game than it did in vBrawl since basically it says "**** you" to Ike's Quick Draw buff that he should value highly for escaping juggles, and Ike in general is too slow to do much of anything in the air when his opponent has a good aerial pressure game. And ROB is still pretty darn good at edgeguarding Ike.
The more I talk about it, the more I think ROB's D-throw is a bit too good. Yeaaaaaah, but on the other hand, it really isn't quite enough to make him the best character in the game, so whatever. I just think he's just clearly top tier and leagues ahead of like 70% of the cast.
I havent heard anything Ganon in a while. Guess that means he's doing well. Anyway I read something eailer suggesting making his N-Air better.
I think Ganon's N-air is an underrated attack. Though it may not be the caliber of something like Guerdo or U-Air it has its uses. Personally I try to use it as a sort of retreating move or aerial poke or sometimes use it from a ledge hop. The only thing really holding it back is the landing lag is it seems just silly for a move that attacks slighty upward (missing most short characters of which Ganondorf usually has problems against. Although I hope it doesnt become a knockoff of Falcon's N-air of which is one of his best aerials.
Ive been trying to incorperate Ganon's N-air into my game sooo thats just my 2cents.
I was going to ask but how did the creators make it so Ganon's Wiztruck plows through certain projectiles and attack? It also leads to my other quesion is there some numerical value that determines priority or is it all relative to hitbox zones? Just curious
I think Ganon's N-air is an underrated attack. Though it may not be the caliber of something like Guerdo or U-Air it has its uses. Personally I try to use it as a sort of retreating move or aerial poke or sometimes use it from a ledge hop. The only thing really holding it back is the landing lag is it seems just silly for a move that attacks slighty upward (missing most short characters of which Ganondorf usually has problems against. Although I hope it doesnt become a knockoff of Falcon's N-air of which is one of his best aerials.
Ive been trying to incorperate Ganon's N-air into my game sooo thats just my 2cents.
Ganondorf's Neutral Air is only really good against tall characters who you can hit easily with this attack from a fullhop. Like King DDD for example.
Fullhopped N-airs set you up for low level aerial Flame Chokes, and landing both hits of N-air does 18%. Fullhopped N-air also is capable of shield poking people on the top platform of Battlefield, and has its uses when edgeguarding or when recovering from high.
All in all it's too situational to be used frequently on stage. Which is frankly stupid considering that the reward of Ganon's N-air is usually balls anyway. It's not hard to space to hit short characters (fullhop U-air or B-air, then N-air), but it's useless for that due to the landing lag.
My experience using Ganondorf and playing against him in BBrawl is that you can still easily beat him by just outpatiencing him. Stay out of his shieldgrab range and shieldcamp him, and spotdodge on reaction when you see the Flame Choke or Dashgrab. You can even punish his Jab on spotdodge. Basically Ganondorf still has no way of creating openings against a competent player who shields and spotdodges his grabs on reaction because he has no safe attacks, and his standing grab range sucks.
Yeah, his reward is massive, but Ganondorf has to land like 6 hits at minimum to kill someone, and it actually doesn't take that many hits to kill Ganondorf either when you consider his recovery is still easily gimped and that a lot of his stuff can be punished out of shield by a KO move, and as I'm stressing, he has trouble fundamentally landing hits when everything you can either shieldcamp against or spotdodge when he desperately tries to do something that can bypass shielding.
I was going to ask but how did the creators make it so Ganon's Wiztruck plows through certain projectiles and attack? It also leads to my other quesion is there some numerical value that determines priority or is it all relative to hitbox zones? Just curious
Priority is all based on hitbox size and damage in smashbros. Attacks with higher damage have higher priority. I recall something like if an attack does 9% or more damage than another attack, it plows right through it (for example, Ganon's F-smash vs most Jabs).
And then there is stuff like Metaknight's attacks, which never clank. Aerial attacks never clank with each other or with ground moves except in rare situations like the Mach Tornado.
I can't recall what percentage it works at, but I would use it when I kept racking damage but couldn't quite land that finisher. Comes out real fast and I think a lot of opponents don't really expect it.
Ok so I've been playing for a while and noticed a couple of things.
1) I've been playing as Luigi and for what I see he's overpowered. I don't know if he was like this before [in vBrawl] but he seems to overpowered, and makes him look broken [i've never really played as Luigi in melee or in brawl but now that i did try him, he's to cheap]. His air moves come out really fast that he can land about 3 air attacks before landing on the ground by just jumping once. His Fsmash is already powerful, his up B is insane and very easy to land on, and finally his Nair. I find his Nair very cheap as you can knock an opponent at less than 100% which I think is ridiculous. All these powerful moves are really easy to land on and I think they should be reduced just a tad.
2)I've also noticed that with Sheik, I feel like she's been nerfed even more. I mean, her needles are magnificant the damage is just right because most Sheik players rely on it, but for her Fsmash I feel that it's been nerfed. The knockback just feels different from vBrawl and to begin with, Sheik was already not that great of a character in the first place. Her strength isn't all that great and because she is very light she gets killed very quickly. I know Zelda was basically buffed to stand as a lone character but there are people whom prefer Sheik rather than Zelda and it may be very hard to play as Sheik while you play with four other people. I'm not saying make Sheik a powerhouse killer, but perhaps adding a +1% to all of her aerials would probably do her some good and maybe a bit more knockback on her Bair kick.
Luigi loses pretty significantly to Metaknight, G&W, and Marth in vBrawl, and he still loses to them in BBrawl. They outrange him, can work around his camping pretty easily, and make it hard for him to recover. And while he's a solid character, he doesn't outright **** most high tiers.
And personally me, I think Sheik's F-smash is better considering that it always connects. You should be killing people with fresh D-smashes or U-smashes, not with F-smash anyway.
Luigi loses pretty significantly to Metaknight, G&W, and Marth in vBrawl, and he still loses to them in BBrawl. They outrange him, can work around his camping pretty easily, and make it hard for him to recover. And while he's a solid character, he doesn't outright **** most high tiers.
And personally me, I think Sheik's F-smash is better considering that it always connects. You should be killing people with fresh D-smashes or U-smashes, not with F-smash anyway.
Well I never really Brawled against a MetaKnight,G&W, and Marth on 1on1 w/ Luigi, but when I used him on a regular match with 4 others...o.O WOW! I won in 1,2,3. But since I don't really use him I wouldnt know much.
Sheik on the other hand is very useful but what does seem different in my opinion is that I feel that her Fsmash was reduced in knockback, as compared to vBrawl.
And personally me, I think Sheik's F-smash is better considering that it always connects. You should be killing people with fresh D-smashes or U-smashes, not with F-smash anyway.
Hmmm...now that i think about it, i think you're right. Sheik from vBrawl was good enough already. i don't think she deserved these changes which make her gameplay fit different compared to everybody else.
Hmmm...now that i think about it, i think you're right. Sheik from vBrawl was good enough already. i don't think she deserved these changes which make her gameplay fit different compared to everybody else.
I'm glad someone agrees with me. Sheik wasn't by any means great in Vanilla, but she was still a decent character, could easily combo with ehr tilts into a heavier hit.
Such as: Jab > f-tilt > f-tilt > u-tilt > u-tilt > f-air(or more jabs on larger characters. :D)
I still disagree with buffing/nerfing Sheik with the image in mind that Zelda is the killing half of her gameplay. Most people that play either character don't even touch the other form as the two play differently. Zelda is for the defensive player, while Sheik is more for people that like to space a bit and just poke you to death.
Why? So that Zelda doesn't become completely useless.
Zelda is terrible at racking damage, but amazing at killing. If you let Sheik get easy kills, there's no point to Zelda. They are meant to be a team, not standalones, and bBrawl emphasizes that, while making their individuals lower than the rest (to encourage + so that the duo isn't completely broken)
well yes in vbrawl sheik had more ability she was already weak in many ways. i find her more useful in in vbrawl than bbrawl although that wont stop me from kickinf *** with sheik. i honestly prefer zelda more than sheik and its true, zelda is horrible at racking damage aswell as versing small charcters. but sheik shouldnt have to suffer even more , her moves already lacked in power and now with her f-smash being nerfed its alot harder since its easy to sheild yourself from it then grab her and laucnh her where you prefer. sheik deserves to have her regular moves back it would be fair.
