Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[JOE!]

I think many of Diddy's neutrals got worse...in ntheir favor.


logically, they got buffed, and he stayed the same, possibly nerfed seeing as he lost bannana locks <.<


thats about it tho. he is still solid IMO, just not as good compared to everyone else.



Speaking of, why is wolf just "decent"?

 

[Linkshot]

I don't know. Perhaps you should try to pick up Wolf?

Also, PT is not to be seen as Squirtle + Ivysaur + Charizard.

PT is PT. That is his style. He has 3 Pokemon that compliment each other.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are you kidding? I used my Marth Fsmash on Ness just earlier today, it just missed. He Fsmashed, it hit and killed me o.0

Anyone can do that to a Marth that sucks at spacing since he leans in a LOT when F-smashing. I'm not impressed by that accomplishment. It doesn't change the fact that Ness's F-smash doesn't reach very far. Out of all attacks in this game, it possibly has the worst range to speed ratio in the entire game aside from moves like the Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch and Snake's F-smash.

If Marth just stands there instead of F-smashing blindly, or if he spaces better, then you have a problem.

Ness' Fsmash has great, disjointed range. It also has the most damaging single hitbox of any move besides Counter/OilPanic. Plus reflection!

It's not really bad, and landing it is extremely rewarding in terms of damage. Some more shield damage is something I can be behind, however. Maybe like G&W's Fsmash in the ability to shield stab?

Play people who know how to space. It's range and speed are AWFUL, so there are very few realistic opportunities to land this move on someone who doesn't make dumb spacing mistakes. Sure, it's disjointed, but being disjointed matters very little unless it's a lingering hitbox.

Like G&W's F-smash in comparison, it comes out a litle faster, is infinitely safer, and has a bit more range. And it KOs earlier if I recall. That is a balanced attack though since it's blockable on reaction.

You have to call on people screwing up in order to get away with using Ness's F-smash, and you're pretty much guaranteed to get punished if you whiff since it's so laggy and because almost every character in this game has an option that outranges it. It's not gonna unbalance Ness if you cut the ending lag of that attack in half. Rather, Ness sorely needs something like that since realistically, his F-smash is rarely ever going to hit someone competent in the matchup.


As for Luigi AA, there isn't really much to say about him. He's a good character, but very little has really changed about him. From my experience using him, none of his changes really revolutionize his matchups. All the real changes to him are the ones that happened to other characters. Fireball buff helps every so often against harder matchups like Marth and MK who generally outpoke him, but G&W still destroys Luigi since you really can't afford to spam fireballs against him if he knows the matchup, not to mention G&W's amazing ability to punish predictable recoveries in general. I can't really say how much DA buff changes matchups, although it is superior to the Tornado in terms of damage for long-distance punishing and it's good for ledge pressure and punishing spotdodges. Maybe this buff helps significantly against ROB?

 

[Steeler]

AA you don't give Charizard enough credit. Charizard has one of the best out-of-shield games in the entire cast. He can punish from any angle you could hit his shield at (except for directly below him, i guess) with quick, powerful moves with range. Combine this with Flamethrower, a terrific zoning move, and Rock Smash and you have a character with very good defensive tools. Rock Smash is just awe inspiring when used correctly, there are SO many opportunities to use this move when you have good reading and good reaction time (something as simple as a MK dash attack is an example of a move that = 30-40% and death at 110% when you combine the two qualities). Charizard clearly has his flaws, like exploitable blindspots and terrible, terrible get up options. But when you are capable of punishing so many moves and dealing so much damage in such a short time span, Charizard becomes a decent character with good, not great, matchups across the board, with his worst matchups being those against characters that can projectile camp him hard and take advantage of his terrible get up (Falco, Dedede, Snake).

By the way, Snake still ***** PT hard. All Ivysaur really got in this matchup was a more powerful dair, which is helpful for cyphers, and a more powerful bair, which is nice but Snake's tilts are just so powerful and quick that it's really not something Ivysaur can heavily rely on in this matchup since it's not as safe as it needs to be for Ivysaur to succeed. Ivysaur's spacing game just doesn't compare in the long run, particularly when you compare the two characters' tilts. Add to this the fact that Ivysaur is a terrible KOer, Snake is incredibly good at protecting himself from the few KO moves Ivy does have, and that Snake is ridiculously heavy...oh, and the fact that Charizard is absolutely destroyed by Snake doesn't help much. Squirtle is okay but Snake's absurd combination of speed and power mean that Squirtle's going to be dying quite early. Which is really bad when you consider that Squirtle is the Pokemon you want to use the most.

 

[MK26]

A2: are you forgetting that, after all, characters are allowed to have bad moves?

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2: are you forgetting that, after all, characters are allowed to have bad moves?

No, I'm not forgetting that. I am however stressing that Ness needs improvements since he's lacking options for pressuring defenses, so in the grand scheme of things, he's pretty bad at racking damage safely.

I suggest F-smash's ending lag reduced to make it safe on block. The idea is that if your opponent blocks it, they will lose a chunk of their shield, and then you have a better chance of shield poking with one of Ness's aerials.

But anyhow, that still doesn't really solve the problem that Ness has bad range in general (and he doesn't have Mario's speed either, which means that people can usually at least trade hits with his stuff if they are ready for it, and Ness's F-air trading hits =/= good thing). Now how did we buff Luigi to help his bad range and limited offensive pressure options? We reduced the ending lag of his fireball. I propose something similar for Ness's PK Fire. It's a mediocre attack since it is hard to land and easily punished on reaction (powershield in midrange, and you can punish him). However if it was a safe move, that would help Ness deal with his range problem better.

Oh yeah and Steeler, you just reminded me that Snake's D-throw is still broken. Yeeeeah...something that does 12% that easily sets up for regrabs and a 2 hit attack that does 19% is ridiculous (not to mention various characters...like Charizard and ROB have a hard time escaping it without getting punished). I would tone down the damage to something like 9-10%, which is still really good for a throw (a techchase trap no less). That would also encourage Snake to use his other throws more, considering his current D-throw for some stupid reason outdamages his other throws.

 

[Linkshot]

Seriously. Snake's dThrow should, realistically, only do 1%. All you're doing is setting them down.

wtf Sakurai?

 

[xatm092]

It's called a sleeper hold because IRL the neck grip would knock you out.

So in this game, that is simulated by % damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Steeler.

What percents do Ivysaur's D-smash KO at? As I recall, D-smash out of shield/spotdodge is a fairly decent tactic.

 

[MysticGospel]

I finally got BBrawl to work, and I like it. It feels just like Brawl with pretty subtle differences. I love what's been done to Ganondorf.

 

[Linkshot]

Considering it's Snake, I'd say 400% XDD

 

[Steeler]

Steeler.

What percents do Ivysaur's D-smash KO at? As I recall, D-smash out of shield/spotdodge is a fairly decent tactic.

idk in bbrawl with the (modest) buff, but i just tested it in vbrawl and from the middle of FD, i was unable to KO a mario off the side blastzone...at 200%. uncharged. i didn't bother to keep testing.

here is the frame data on the move

Down Smash:
Start up: 1-15
Hit: 16-17
End: 63

it is quite likely the worst smash attack in the entire game. awesome. ivysaur is better off dtilting (4 frames) or bullet seeding (4 frames) out of shield or spotdodge. both moves are similar, dtilt is a great move in general and humorously has only slightly less knockback than dsmash. bullet seed is a fairly bad move (not as bad as dsmash though!) but at least you get a decent payoff if it works.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh ****, that one escaped me. Didn't realize it was that slow. <_<

 

[Mit]

Buffing PK Fire just seems pretty dangerous. If it's easier to hit for racking damage, that means it's easier to hit for killing. With how people get trapped in the thing, it's just about guaranteed that Ness can get a grab in while doing it.

So, he'd be able to rack damage faster with it, and then when he hits that magical 120% mark, all he has to do is hit with it one more time and run in and grab them and bthrow for a kill.

Seems like you should look somewhere else for a damage strategy other than PK Fire.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Buffing PK Fire just seems pretty dangerous. If it's easier to hit for racking damage, that means it's easier to hit for killing. With how people get trapped in the thing, it's just about guaranteed that Ness can get a grab in while doing it.

So, he'd be able to rack damage faster with it, and then when he hits that magical 120% mark, all he has to do is hit with it one more time and run in and grab them and bthrow for a kill.

Seems like you should look somewhere else for a damage strategy other than PK Fire.

I never suggested that we make it easier to land. I suggested that it was made SAFER.

It's a bad attack. It's slow on startup, and easily punished because it has significant ending lag. Take away the ending lag, it's still hard to land, but it no longer sucks.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's not a move that's just supposed to be used randomly, it's supposed to punish. Of course it's supposed to be unsafe on whiff, because it has great reward on hit. You obviously focus way too much on Ness ground game when you play him. Try using the X button.

 

[dansal]

If it fired on release like Ike's side B ness could at least try to predict perfect shielding or dodging with it.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Textures?

Ok, I'm sure this has been asked several times but I'm about to ask it again. How do i get textures to work on BB? I DLed the alternate DL of BB but it is not set up with the folders for Texture editing. How do I do it?

Before anyone says search the thread I have however can't seem to locate anything.

 

[Linkshot]

sdcard:\private\wii\app\RSBE\pf\fighter\

Then the next folder depends on character.

 

[Mit]

Ok, I'm sure this has been asked several times but I'm about to ask it again. How do i get textures to work on BB? I DLed the alternate DL of BB but it is not set up with the folders for Texture editing. How do I do it?

Before anyone says search the thread I have however can't seem to locate anything.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225642

Follow the instructions in that thread, and you should probably take any following questions to that thread as well.


On PK Fire, I was just pretty much assuming that making it safer will make you land it more often. I guess it isn't easier to land per se, but it would be used more, and it would be landed more because of that. The move is a pretty huge nightmare if used correctly, even in BBrawl's current state (friend of mine figured out how to predict/bait certain situations pretty well with it).

Does a decent amount of damage on its own, and then you have to stack on whatever Ness feels like doing to you as he watches you burn.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not a move that's just supposed to be used randomly, it's supposed to punish. Of course it's supposed to be unsafe on whiff, because it has great reward on hit. You obviously focus way too much on Ness ground game when you play him. Try using the X button.

Y is positionally superior to jumping than X for properly buffering aerial attacks. I set X to specials in the event I need to buffer specials out of jump.

Jumping with PK Fire is a pretty awkward strategy on stage and generally not very safe or practical.

The startup is SO EASY to react to and powershield on reaction. He yells "PK Fire" before throwing the bolt.

Ness's pressure options are pretty **** limited as it is. He NEEDS something spammable. He doesn't have anything that is actually spammable or insanely fast to compensate for his very poor range. He's an example of a character who is not getting balanced correctly. Mario for example basically outclasses Ness at everything in BBrawl. He's much faster, so he's better at comboing, WAY superior at shield pressure, and has MUCH more versatile spacing tactics. His camping in general is also much safer, and he has better options for working around camping. Mario's U-smash out of shield outclasses Ness's B-air out of shield. Jab Jab D-smash/B-throw is easier to land than PK Fire -> B-throw. Mario also actually has one attack with extremely good range (F-smash) while Ness lacks any melee attacks with exceptional range.

I very very highly doubt the buffs I am suggesting will make Ness a dominating force. He's pretty much always been a gimmick in this game, lacking any really fundamentally solid pressure strategies. What I'm suggesting however aims to give Ness something that is both unique and competitively viable.

 

[xatm092]

Y is positionally superior to jumping than X for properly buffering aerial attacks. I set X to specials in the event I need to buffer specials out of jump.

In before Y vs. X argument

*cowers in corner*

 

[ChozoAce]

I really need help i think balanced brawl broke my wii it cant read cds anymore...it was just working fine b4 and never showed any problems. but now after i tried playing balanced (went to homebrew didnt show up, then i read the directions and saw that i had to delete custom stages) so then i was like screw it im not doing that, went to the wii menu played brawl in the disc channel. then mid game it said "error disc cannot be read" and now it wont read any of my cds

 

[Linkshot]

Deleting Custom Stages is for Stack Smash only.

@Ness: PK Fire is not meant to be a spammable attack. Ness' spammable attack is fAir. Great range, transcendent priority, and can be easily followed up.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

hey, if someone on balanced goes on wifi and plays someone on normal brawl, what happens?

 

[xatm092]

I assume it'll be a desync - the different Wiis will see different things happening.

then mid game it said "error disc cannot be read" and now it wont read any of my cds

This happened to me a year ago when I dropped my Wii on the floor

I had to get a new Wii

Is it making dodgy noises when you put the disc in the drive? It did for me.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

you should have dropped it again usually fixes disc read problems or at least in my friends case and yes i'm serious

 

[ChozoAce]

I assume it'll be a desync - the different Wiis will see different things happening.



This happened to me a year ago when I dropped my Wii on the floor

I had to get a new Wii

Is it making dodgy noises when you put the disc in the drive? It did for me.

No, and i never even droped the wii. When u put the cd in u hear it spin for like 2 seconds then nothing after that

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Ness: PK Fire is not meant to be a spammable attack. Ness' spammable attack is fAir. Great range, transcendent priority, and can be easily followed up.

It only has "great" range when retreating. Otherwise basically everyone and their mother's B-air can at least trade hits with it because it doesn't actually reach that far. Stuff like Marth, Metaknight, and G&W's disjoints consistently shut it down moreover. Considering that's his only attack that has remotely decent pressure ability, it goes to emphasize how limited his options are. Outmaneuver him and move to a place where his F-air doesn't hit very easily, and there goes his pressure game.

In short, all the stuff that makes Ness unique is all gimmicky in some way, and the stuff he has that is actually useful competitively (which is against conservative opponents who space well and take few unnecessary commitments) is almost always outclassed (except for his B-throw).

Ness will still have trouble landing PK fire if you take away the ending lag. Really though, it's not exactly fair that it's easy to punish on reaction by just running up and powershielding in midrange. Compare it to something like G&W's Smashes, which have similar startup, but MUCH more massive reward, and much greater safety (and actually, G&W's F-smash and D-smash both start up faster, with those being frame 17 and 15 respectively and PK fire being frame 20).

And then you look at Falco's lasers, which are stupidly safe projectiles that are fast, have ZERO cooldown, and worse, Falco is able to combo with them.

Seriously, now try to tell me why Ness doesn't need a new safe option.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What you're asking is for a major timing change that changes the way Ness players will play, also, I prefer the X button

 

[xatm092]

Y button is where it is at. And while I agree mostly with what you say A2ZOMG, I don't agree with the sideB being poor. You compare it to G&W's Fsmash - but it has larger range and Ness can get an Fsmash in if it hits.

BBrawl purposefully tries not to change the moves themselves but more the damage and knockback they do. Yes, Ness has a bad pressure game, and has to rely on punishing and predicting more than other characters of his size and speed, but I don't think this means we should edit move timings. Rather we should simply increase the damage that he does until we see him winning a proportionate amount of matches. And I don't think it'd require much - his Bair and Bthrow are already brilliant and he has several other moves which are brilliant for punishing mistakes.

 

[Linkshot]

Marth, Meta Knight, and G&W outrange everybody, so all that means is that Ness could have the 4th-best fAir in the game.

(I'm not saying he does. I'm just saying not to point out the obvious.)

 

[MK26]

I use Zr to jump (classic controller ftw ^_~)

And I'd like to see bBrawl Ness with the B+ DJC. Insta-top tier? I think so.

Spoiler

I know it's not gonna happen don't flame me

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Hmm... after playing around on BB a bit I've noticed a few things.

1: Sheik actually got worse in terms of her 1, 2 killing blows? o-O

2: Falcon, still lacks priority and his attacks come out slow. Sure he got some new tricks but didn't really fix what he needs. I personally like the PSA from B+ of him aside from the obsurd hitbox on the knee. xP

He may still be a little low on priority but his attacks come out fast enough he can combo somewhat, such as n-air, u-air, KNEE. But yeah, the current falcon in BB needs some tweakage, especially in his attack speed if that's possible.

3: PT, I must say i'm quite surprised at how good he is now after actually playing him a while. Ivysaur comboing into spike marth style=win, and they switch out fast enough you can swat them away with a quick smash and switch out. They can move as soon as the pokeball pops open which is quite nice.

*Off topic*
Also, if anyone knows how to make my Sig bigger let me know via pm please, my smashh card gets cut in half.

 

[Linkshot]

Sheik was slightly nerfed so that Zelda actually has a reason to be used.

Falcon is better now and actually works. He's good. B+ Falcon is overpowered.

PT is a god.

 

[metaXzero]

Sheik was slightly nerfed so that Zelda actually has a reason to be used.

Falcon is better now and actually works. He's good. B+ Falcon is overpowered.

PT is a god.

Strange. I don't remember Sheik being significantly better then Zelda where using Zelda is useless. Or Zelda/Sheik being really broken or at least polarizing in VBrawl. Sounds like a needless nerf. I understand that you guys want to encourage Sheik/Zelda by not buffing them, but were nerfs really neccessary (Besides Sheiks F-tilt nonsense)?

Falcon+ is mid at best. He gets ***** too much by range, combos, and edgeguards to be OPed.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The reasoning behind the change in Sheik's Fsmash is to really place emphasis that Sheik should be the damaging character of the duo, while Zelda should have the killing power. Fsmash was "nerfed" in killing potential, but it was made so that both hits connected more fluidly. This is how I understand it, however, but I am not a Z/S user.

Though, the combo seems really strong in BBrawl.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Sheik was slightly nerfed so that Zelda actually has a reason to be used.

There was no need to change Sheik, she was already not necessarily a good character. I'd much rather have her back as she was in vanilla. Still reason to switch to Zelda but not an absolute necessity.

Falcon is better now and actually works. He's good. B+ Falcon is overpowered.

Actually no he's not, and without hit stun even the B+ Falcon is kind of pathetic. Sure he's still usable but pathetic in terms of killing blows. A lot more has been done to Ganon than to Falcon when it comes to balance. Falcon still has none.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Strange. I don't remember Sheik being significantly better then Zelda where using Zelda is useless. Or Zelda/Sheik being really broken or at least polarizing in VBrawl. Sounds like a needless nerf. I understand that you guys want to encourage Sheik/Zelda by not buffing them, but were nerfs really neccessary (Besides Sheiks F-tilt nonsense)?

Falcon+ is mid at best. He gets ***** too much by range, combos, and edgeguards to be OPed.

Well put Meta.

Also another thing I noticed. Meta Knight, still cheap as hell. No lag on any aerials meaning he can still gimp you to death with ease, or just sh combo you with f-airs off the side. Or better yet get out of Yoshi's d-air just by firing off any aerial.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Use Captain Falcon's u-tilt... btw you double posted