Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[MK26]

Thanks for the response. I've seen a few youtube videos where people had moved stuff around, changed where & how everything is organized, & even duplicate stages, but the one that really captivated me was one for the one I saw that had the wifi waiting room under playable stages without any stage removals (I actually think it was some Brawl+ mod). If it works it'd be nice to play as (even though it's banned, it's still nice to have for "fun"), even though the stage is clearly a banned stage.

Another thing you brought up is BBrawl tournaments. Don't mind me asking, but about how many tournaments has BBrawl having? (a month, a week, in it's existance, etc.)

The SSS in itself works, but the code is buggy and causes the replay section (not replays in themselves, those are unharmed) to freeze while scrolling. Hopefully a code edit could be done to fix this, but i dont see that happening any time soon.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes. Early on we actually used a custom SSS Ampharos put together (quite perfect stage order if you ask me) but we stopped using it due to that bug. If you REALLY want it, I can dig it up, but meh.

For final release, a stage other than Havenbow will probably be replaced. You can do it yourself if yo uwant, it's not a big deal.

If anyone has played BBrawl and REALLY wants to know what I think of the characters, IM or PM me *YOUR* personal tier list and opinions first, and then I'll discuss where I think the characters are currently with you. If I randomly start saying something here like "Oh man guys, I think Mario is top 3 easily, probably top 3 easily, might need buffs removed." it suddenly becomes the assumed community attitude before anybody realizes it. Sometimes this even happens by mistake, so me and Ampharos are really careful about what we say. For example, on the last page we talked about hypothetical Lucas changes, and I tried to add a little disclaimer in my posts that I don't think Lucas is bad or NEEDS changes.

I will say though that I think all the characters in recent builds have been not only viable, but outright fully competitive, with no one being dominant.

 

[SaltyKracka]

pikachu's new d-throw is nice, sets up for a n-air

but thunder's shockwave after hitting pikachu seems ridiculously powerful. it can kill pit at the edge of battlefield at 49%.

I have to second this. That thing is just way too powerful for an easily spammed move.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

easily spammed yet hard to land. there is a difference. may as well nerf falcon punch, or ddd fsmash

 

[Thinkaman]

While we're at it, let's nerf the following abnormally good moves:

-Mario f-smash
-Luigi up-b
-Peach dair
-Bowser side-b
-DK giant punch
-Diddy bananas
-Yoshi u-smash
-Wario fart
-Link dair
-Sheik f-tilt
-Zelda fair/bair
-Ganon uair
-Toon Link bair
-Samus zair
-ZSS d-smash
-Pit arrows
-IC smashes
-ROB laser
-Kirby chainthrow
-MK (the whole character)
-DDD gordos
-Olimar grabs
-Fox u-smash
-Falco laser
-Wolf bair
-Falcon... uhh... Punch?
-Squirtle d-throw
-Ivysaur Bullet Seed
-Charizard Rock Smash
-Lucario dair
-Jigglypuff fair
-Marth tippers
-Ike jabs
-Ness fair
-Lucas f-smash
-G&W bair
-Snake nades
-Sonic taunts

Actually, that last one doesn't sound so bad.

 

[GHNeko]

You guys should follow Plus example and aim to add in Taunt Canceling. <3

 

[Linkshot]

No, we need less taunts. They're aggravators, and hurt the opponent's concentration. They need more cooldown. (Especially things like "You're not ready yet!" "You're too slow!" "C'mon, step it up!" Online Messages, and "Come back when you can put up a fight." The last one can't even be punished!)

Anyway, I haven't gotten to test bBrawl as much as I've wanted, still waiting to play somebody online at it.

 

[Thinkaman]

"You're not ready yet" and "You're too slow" should have infinite cooldown.

 

[Revven]

No no no, you're all wrong.

Make Sonic's Wait 1, 2, and 3 his You're too Slow taunt and put IASA in it. There you go!

 

[GHNeko]

No, we need less taunts. They're aggravators, and hurt the opponent's concentration. They need more cooldown. (Especially things like "You're not ready yet!" "You're too slow!" "C'mon, step it up!" Online Messages, and "Come back when you can put up a fight." The last one can't even be punished!)

Anyway, I haven't gotten to test bBrawl as much as I've wanted, still waiting to play somebody online at it.

...loooooooooooooooooooooool.

Get mindgamed. If you get annoyed by taunts and lose focus, then the taunts have actually DONE THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.

<3

No need to nerf them. We should be buffing them!

 

[dabridge]

...loooooooooooooooooooooool.

Get mindgamed. If you get annoyed by taunts and lose focus, then the taunts have actually DONE THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.

<3

No need to nerf them. We should be buffing them!

Of course. xD Some people get used to hearing these annoying taunts (see: Sonic, Kirby), but when they suddenly hear:

HiHiHiHiHiHiHiii

or

You're too You're too You're too You're too slow!

It's bound to get on their nerves. It would make taunts well, actually taunting your opponent instead of a victory, "I JUST KO'd YOU LOL" pose.

 

[MK26]

Kirby? Chainthrows?!? In my lair?!!??!?!??

No seriously, you couldnt think of anything better about kirby? bb needs more plus-style kirby chainthrows, those things are ridiculously OP. If you're playing the right char, a grab at 0 is all but a guaranteed 60%

 

[SaltyKracka]

easily spammed yet hard to land. there is a difference. may as well nerf falcon punch, or ddd fsmash

Except that neither of those have as large a hitbox, come out as fast, or provide invincibility.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it is still very hard to against any decent person. i have spent a great deal of time developing ways to hit with thuhder, and believe me it is hard to land. easy to see coming along with the easy to hear pika. i see absolutely no reason why it deserves to be nerfed. plus pikachu is worse off then he was in vbrawl, and needs all the help he can get.

 

[Thinkaman]

Except that neither of those have as large a hitbox, come out as fast, or provide invincibility.

You are complaining about the speed of a move that takes 43 frames to come out?

 

[Steeler]

it's just that thunder is pretty **** near impossible to punish if pika uses it correctly. which is fine really, because with proper DI the move becomes near impossible to hit with

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just dropping in to comment that I feel as though taunts are properly balanced already.

 

[GHNeko]

Still, Taunt canceling is a homage to 64 and fan service.

Nothing is more lol-worthy than taunt canceling and they do nothing but add to the metagame of BBrawl.

 

[Steeler]

snake taunt cancel to produce tons of boxes as an anti approach/edgeguard?? that might actually have a use.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont think he'd be able to do it fast enough LOL

 

[WheelOfFish]

And he'd need a small platform to rapid fire boxes... so banning Smashville might be a good idea if it works. But the box comes out so slow I'm not sure he would be able to.

 

[Scià]

Exscuse me, why two values for the knockback? Like 80/75.
I've tried to search, but i found nothing. Thanks for help.

 

[Linkshot]

One is base (the one it starts on at 0) and the other is growth (how fast the base multiplies as damage racks up)

 

[Scià]

Thank you very much.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Captain Falcons taunts should be extremly buffed... everyone else's should be nerfed

 

[SuperToughPinkPuff]

Im not exactly sure how to phrase this in search so please excuse if this has been asked over and again. Something is up with my game config text fil i download from the link, i tried both txt files posted and neither works. I assume its the game file because im getting Geckos good ol' "Too many Lines" error. Is there something that i need to change? Can i use a working config from another game?

 

[Thinkaman]

You downloaded gameconfig.txt, and placed it in the root of your SD card? Like, not in any folder?

 

[SuperToughPinkPuff]

Yeah in the root, but it wasnt working....funny thing is i dropped in Brawl+'s game config and it worked!..mostly =p

 

[Thinkaman]

The gameconfig files for any Brawl hacks should be 100% identical. It's a very small file, all it does is remap the code memory space.

 

[koldstare64]

I guess I'd fall in the category of not wanting to install HBC out of fear that it'd trash my Wii. After seeing this project however, I finally grew a pair, and installed HBC. I can't wait to try out BBrawl :]

 

[koldstare64]

After having played it for about an hour and a half... I think you guys did an amazing job. Kudos to you two! You did an amazing job on Link, Luigi, and Ganondorf, especially. I actually feel like it'd be possible to win a real match with these buffed versions of the characters. I have yet to try them out in a true match yet (so far I've just been practicing on CPUs). However, I noticed something about Samus. The knockback boost to her super missiles would change my playstyle of her quite a lot; I'd use less missile-canceled super missiles to begin my combos, which, over time, would mean quite a bit of damage that I no longer do. Pretty much, the only thing I'd do to the Samus that you two buffed would be to take that extra knockback away from the super missiles and add it on to her N-air.

 

[Thinkaman]

Interesting. Could you elaborate on how super missles are used to start a combo?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Speaking of buffs that really aren't, could you change the second hitbox of Ganon's aerial wizkick back to how it was? As it is now, it's practically useless.

 

[Thinkaman]

Speaking of buffs that really aren't, could you change the second hitbox of Ganon's aerial wizkick back to how it was? As it is now, it's practically useless.

This has been discussed. If the knockback of the second hitbox is strong enough to knock out of grounding, it sort of ruins the point. It was made barely weak enough to not do that, and then "if it has to be that weak, might as well make it a spike". Linking to the quake hitbox is nice, but that part of down-b is still inferior to the old of course.

 

[Crescens]

A dair used to (and still, somewhat) can be very easy to land after a canceled smash missile. Can set up either a spike, or in vBrawl, a jab lock combo if they fail to tech. Alternatively, you can use another smash missile to dair while they're getting up. Of course, you can do follow with other things as well, dair is just the most reliable. This is still possible in BBrawl, but at lower percentages. Since missiles have 10 less KBG now, the difference isn't all that large.

A dash grab is guaranteed if you hit with a close range missile (with good timing). This is still possible in BBrawl, and - in vBrawl and BBrawl - is likely Samus' best followup. At a high level of play, aerial followups aren't guaranteed, they are DI-able. Even if you do land the mighty dair, it will be teched.

A grab is better at the damages ideal for getting the aerial followup, you might as well take the 2 pummels and a fthrow. You've dealt almost as much damage, but more importantly, the fthrow puts the opponent exactly where you want them to continue Samus-ing them.

Here's a match that illustrates the possibilities. Naturally, this would have no hope against a competent opponent. The benefit of having missiles that space better far outweigh the loss of some unreliable combos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8foMnMSmW2s

(As a side note, why did you drastically increase the KBG on Samus' down-angled Fsmash? Why didn't you change the best one -- up? I think most Samus players use up whenever possible. I'm not complaining about this, I'm just curious as to what you had in mind. Also, more knockback on nair would make Samus the ultimate gimpmachine, to an unfair extent)

 

[SaltyKracka]

This has been discussed. If the knockback of the second hitbox is strong enough to knock out of grounding, it sort of ruins the point. It was made barely weak enough to not do that, and then "if it has to be that weak, might as well make it a spike". Linking to the quake hitbox is nice, but that part of down-b is still inferior to the old of course.

Yeah, I'm not getting this part. You're saying that the knockback of the second hitbox is enough to knock out of grounding, but if you're high enough in the air that the second hitbox will come out in the first place, you're not going to be grounding them anyways.

 

[Mit]

Yeah, I'm not getting this part. You're saying that the knockback of the second hitbox is enough to knock out of grounding, but if you're high enough in the air that the second hitbox will come out in the first place, you're not going to be grounding them anyways.

Now I could be wrong, but I know with Captain Falcon, even if you shorthop Falcon Kick right down someone's throat, you get the first hitbox and the second hitbox, and do something like 26% damage. I would assume it's the same for Ganondorf, and that that second hitbox would knock your opponent out of grounding.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Now I could be wrong, but I know with Captain Falcon, even if you shorthop Falcon Kick right down someone's throat, you get the first hitbox and the second hitbox, and do something like 26% damage. I would assume it's the same for Ganondorf, and that that second hitbox would knock your opponent out of grounding.

Actually, you don't. Oh, you get two hits should you happen to hit them with the spiking hitbox, but that's because you get the first hitbox, then you land and quake them. With Ganon's aerial wizkick, you either hit with the first or second hitbox, not both.

 

[bleyva]

Also, more knockback on nair would make Samus the ultimate gimpmachine, to an unfair extent

unfair extent? so does that mean youd be against a Samus nair knockback increase or was that just exaggeration?

also, as he mentioned, wouldnt it be more useful to transfer the knockback increase from down-tilted fsmash to up-tilted? its the only one worth using

just my (pointless) two cents

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm glad you asked about down angled fsmash. It was buffed specifically because it did the least damage, and if you notice, the buff amount is actually pretty huge. Now Samus has an extra layer of depth to angling fsmash. Angled up does the most damage, and angled down kills the earliest. Non-angled is a middle ground, though factoring in the extra damage of angled up it probably kills about the same as angled up in most cases. Of course, they have different hit areas so it's not like they're fully replaceable for each other on that basis, but it should be pretty interesting. This angled fsmash stuff on Samus was actually some of the very first stuff done on Bbrawl, as an aside. Of course, testing revealed some implications, and the main one I noticed was that down angled fsmash hits over a similar area to dtilt which makes it basically a slower, stronger, chargeable dtilt that is independent from dtilt in the stale moves queue (staleness being a big concern for Samus if she wants to kill even remotely low). That keeps Samus always having to work for kills while simultaneously making sure she is far more likely to have a usable kill move.

As per the super missiles, I confess to having been completely unaware of that sort of follow up, but given that Samus is a keep-away character, I would imagine super missiles keeping them out better is a bigger deal than getting follow ups off super missiles. Thanks for making us aware of the trade-off there; it's interesting to say the least...

Also, Samus fans should try out the test version Thinkaman threw up a few days ago (though you'll have to compile it). The throw mods for her are... very helpful. Uthrow and dthrow set up for stuff better, and fthrow and bthrow put the enemy further away (bthrow is particularly good on walk-offs, as an aside). IMO they fit into her game quite well.

I should also stress again, just in case anyone is unclear. There isn't some set number of "points" that each character gets, and there's no optimization problem to do in terms of trading buffs. It's just about making the characters balanced; whether that ends up requiring one million changes or zero changes for a particular character is totally immaterial to us. If a change doesn't turn out to have that big of an impact on gameplay in the end, that's not necessarily a sign it has to go (some changes are known to be incredibly niche, such as the Farore's Wind changes). This last paragraph is just something I feel as though I have to repeat every once in a while.