Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[knightpraetor]

yeah, puff peach and fox have it easiest vs falco's lasers. Fox's full hop game is good enough to deal and peach and puff both get over them easily. falco's laser into dashdance beats like 90% of the cast in this game, but if you're a marth main and want to complain about lasers, we have a board for that. Leave the jiggs in peace..trust me..you will find much sympathy on the marth boards. Maybe even a little help.

A better use of your time here would be to rally the jiggs to rise up and throw off the falco oppressors

 

[KrIsP!]

In theory lasers are always bad because powershield. So go and become TAS and make us proud. My stupid lasers get reflected back half of the time because I am bad.

I want to go learn TAS just to make a video of puff power shielding lasers then wd oos and repeat from across the stage until she makes a full approach where the falco goes for dair shine and puff gets stuck in shield then rests out of shield pressure. Take that Daigo.

 

[Bones0]

yeah, puff peach and fox have it easiest vs falco's lasers. Fox's full hop game is good enough to deal and peach and puff both get over them easily. falco's laser into dashdance beats like 90% of the cast in this game, but if you're a marth main and want to complain about lasers, we have a board for that. Leave the jiggs in peace..trust me..you will find much sympathy on the marth boards. Maybe even a little help.

A better use of your time here would be to rally the jiggs to rise up and throw off the falco oppressors

I think Puff gets worked way worse by lasers than Marth. She can't do **** since she sucks on the ground and can't get in the air without getting pummeled by lasers. Maybe a Puff that actually applies PSing would be able to change my mind, especially with her beast crouch. I could definitely see getting annoyed by crouch-PS, WD OoS, grab or crouch-PS, bair OoS = gimp at dumb percents because Falco wasn't DIing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel the advantage Puff used to have by being able to work above Falco's lasers has gradually vanished or been worn away by modern Falco positioning, laser strategies, and what we know about weak aerials in general now (Puff doesn't land weak nair into grab that much vs Puff-savvy opponents nowadays).

 

[FerrishTheFish]

I think Puff gets worked way worse by lasers than Marth.

I ... really don't see how. Marth may be good on the ground, but aside from PSing what can he do against Falco lasers while on the ground? Wd forward and shield? On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Puff can jump -> instant dj after crouching under a laser to get above the next laser. Or SDI up and dj after a hit. Marth instant dj or SDI -> dj probably also gets above lasers, but he obviously can't burn his dj as safely as Puff can.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel Sheik has it the easiest vs Falco's laser aside from Peach but what do I know?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Well, I think Falcon has it easiest against Falco lasers because his fair oos is manlier than anyone else's.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Doug's OOS game is bizarre.

 

[Bones0]

I ... really don't see how. Marth may be good on the ground, but aside from PSing what can he do against Falco lasers while on the ground? Wd forward and shield? On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Puff can jump -> instant dj after crouching under a laser to get above the next laser. Or SDI up and dj after a hit. Marth instant dj or SDI -> dj probably also gets above lasers, but he obviously can't burn his dj as safely as Puff can.

He can intercept Falco before he even shoots lasers way better than anyone else because of his range. Falco can't just SHL in front of Marth whenever he wants because at any moment you could get hit by a fair, nair, dtilt, utilt, DA, ftilt, or fsmash. They all cover the range Falco needs to be in if he actually wants to punish from the laser, and even if Marth just shields, that still doesn't give Falco a good opportunity to approach because retreating aerials OoS are really good and WD OoS is so fast that any followup lasers or aerials can easily be DD grabbed. Even an airborne Marth getting hit by lasers isn't that bad because he can instantly fair before Falco can do anything (except maybe jab/ftilt, but big deal if you get hit by those).

Puff, on the other hand, gets her rhythm and spacing completely ****ed. Puff is all about being able to fit multiple aerials in FHs or SHing and DJing to get another aerial high, but lasers completely ruin these tactics as a form of spacing. Yeah, you can sort of do it right after stun, but then Falco can expect them and shield or punish some other way. They also turn her around constantly so she's stuck throwing out fairs instead of really threatening bairs.

 

[knightpraetor]

kind of curious now. Why do you think sheik has it easier than fox vs falco's lasers?

also bones, I disagree with your opinion on puff's ability to get around lasers..However, I will acknowledge that using lasers to force the turn around is really good. Honestly that more than anything else helps falco get mileage out of the laser. Also, puffs tend to be bad and just go ham once they get over the first couple lasers...so then they run into the laser coming down. They don't have to do this at all. They can just eat up space till the falco stops lasering by landing outside of range.

also it's obvious that falco can't SHL in front of marth..but this already assumes that the marth is close enough to threaten. If every stock opened with the falco right beside me, I probably wouldn't have any complaints

 

[genkaku]

isn't that what invincibility is for?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

isn't that what invincibility is for?

Last I checked, you need to lose a stock to get that long of invincibility to guarantee getting that close 8\ Invinc frames from ledgehop -> wavedash only work maybe on YS or if Falco sucks at spacing or is terrible at being on the top plat. <- No Marth expert, but 30 frames isn't very long.

 

[Bones0]

The Marth can threaten from further away than Falco, so if Marth isn't close enough to threaten, the only thing Falco do is laser.

 

[genkaku]

obviously you don't want to lose your stock just to get close, I'm just saying that if you play your positioning right, you should open every stock with falco next to you/at a significant disadvantage, or at least one step from.

 

[Kaizer]

What's up Puffs, who's going to apex?

 

[the wizard howl]

I figured out how to forcing people into tumble with drill works.

 

[idea]

lol, i just now realized that new smashboards hasn't been giving me any alerts for most of my watched threads, including all of the jigglypuff boards. also i wanna go to apex but i'm not sure if i actually will. if i do it will be mainly to hang out with people in hotels and stuff and maybe to actually enter.

 

[Krynxe]

yeah, it's weird about that. maybe check your alert options, otherwise unwatch/re-watch threads

bothers me too

 

[Bones0]

It only happens for the Fox discussion thread for me. I think sometimes it is because there is another page of posts and I just missed it, but maybe it really is just broken for some reason. Either way, you can just check your "Watched Threads" page after checking your alerts just to make sure you don't miss things for long periods of time.

 

[idea]

i don't have enough alerts popping up for me to have just missed them, so yeah, definitely the boards' fault. it's possible that i hadn't "re-watched" these threads since the boards changed and it was just adding them in from my old subscribed threads list...maybe you need to manually do that for it to start giving alerts?

 

[KrIsP!]

I just use watched threads, haven't check alerts in months.

 

[Krynxe]

Anyone else know that feel when it's 1 stock to 1, you get that perfect opportunity, and you miss a rest while it's being recorded... and every time you watch the video, it just makes your blood boil that ****ed it up.

Worse than illusioning off the stage with spacies imo, because you had the win in your hand and then you s**t the bed + they get to taunt and falcon punch or ganon u-tilt or whatever.

 

[idea]

^game 2 vs. hax in pools at the big house 3 lol

except i wasn't mad 'cause he's way better than me

 

[Krynxe]

But you see, it doesn't matter whether your opponent is amazing or awful, the best or the worst. As soon as you got that setup, right there in your grasp, the rest was theoretically guaranteed and you knew it. It was your own incompetency, your own mistake, your own failure. At that moment, hours upon hours of practice meant absolutely nothing as you twitch a split second too soon or too late, jumping up in excitement thinking you've done it to only realize that everything you had worked for was this: to see yourself idle, immobilized and helplessly accepting defeat.

Spacies have the easy life, they don't even know what's up. Puff is too real. #TheStruggle

 

[Bones0]

But you see, it doesn't matter whether your opponent is amazing or awful, the best or the worst. As soon as you got that setup, right there in your grasp, the rest was theoretically guaranteed and you knew it. It was your own incompetency, your own mistake, your own failure. At that moment, hours upon hours of practice meant absolutely nothing as you twitch a split second too soon or too late, jumping up in excitement thinking you've done it to only realize that everything you had worked for was this: to see yourself idle, immobilized and helplessly accepting defeat.

Spacies have the easy life, they don't even know what's up. Puff is too real. #TheStruggle

Puff is helpless when you miss a rest. Spacies are helpless every time they get touched.
#TopTierProblems

 

[onehunna]

I play some Jigglypuff on the side, and I really enjoy it. It just feels right. My playstyle leans more towards the Mango aggro type. I'm curious what the consensus is among Puff mains--is this sort of aggressive style only viable when you're someone like Mango and able to outclass most of your opponents, or is there a way to make it work at a higher level? Of course, we've seen Hungrybox have incredible success with his own flavor of Puff, and seems to be one of the only ones to consistently do so at an extremely high level. Is there any room for a more aggressive style in Jigglypuff's metagame? And what about at lower levels of play? Are there any other Puff players here who identify with a more aggro style of play?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

By Puff standards, Hungrybox is also an aggressive Puff. I can't see anyone being more aggressive than him and having similar success without also being much better than him.

At lower levels, aggro Puff does very well against anyone who can't SDI.

But really, Puff is too slow to be viable as an aggressive character. Melee favors defensive, patient play in general, so basically however well you do playing aggressively, you'd probably do better playing patiently.

 

[the wizard howl]

worrying about your playstyle being aggro vs campy is a waste of time imo.
I'm assuming that what you're looking at is more about risk-taking. Mango's puff definitely takes more risks but that's a little deceptive because he's really good at making those risks safer by conditioning, etc. Beyond that I don't think his and hbox's puffs are very good foils.

You're going to find a way to play that's effective and rewarding more quickly by focussing on what positioning and options work for you instead of for some overarching, unhelpful label like "aggro" or "campy."

 

[BTmoney]

^ yung insight

 

[Kaizer]

yo, any puffs in NY?

 

[FrozenLight]

Is there something to focus on to improve my punishing game? I notice myself seeing every mistake my enemy does, but I can't use them, because I either react too slowly, or don't know what to do!
I've heard it helps Sheiks to focus on grabbing, when they don't punish a lot, is there something like that for Puff as well?

 

[Bones0]

Is there something to focus on to improve my punishing game? I notice myself seeing every mistake my enemy does, but I can't use them, because I either react too slowly, or don't know what to do!
I've heard it helps Sheiks to focus on grabbing, when they don't punish a lot, is there something like that for Puff as well?

Sometimes you really just have to engrain the situation in your game sense and muscle memory in order to react fast enough. This is especially the case with dodges and techs as they have very tight timings, and the problem is exacerbated by Puff's slow movement. It will probably just come in time as long as you stay focused on your reactions and also do your best to position yourself so that reacting to all of the options is as easy as possible. If you want to chase someone's tech chase, you can't land a mile away from them and expect to cover techroll away. You have to land right on top of them so you can cover both roll choices as well as the other options.

 

[crush]

i just found this sick new puff tech. i think i just broke the game

 

[FerrishTheFish]

You're going to find a way to play that's effective and rewarding more quickly by focussing on what positioning and options work for you instead of for some overarching, unhelpful label like "aggro" or "campy."

If you play Puff often or exclusively and you have lots of Puff experience, then treating the game as though the only two options are approach blindly or run away is a bad idea. But we're talking about someone with little Puff experience asking you for help, who may very well only know of those two options, and you can hardly call my advice unhelpful when your advice is, "Figure it out yourself." I think it's valid to use words like "aggro" and "campy" to express to such a person that Puff most likely has fewer/worse approaching options but more/better spacing and stage control options than their current main, and that to try to play Puff similarly to their current main and approach too often with Puff as opposed to controlling space and punishing approaches is an inherently flawed strategy except against bad players who can't escape stuff-that-shouldn't-work -> rest. Once they have that experience, more familiarity with all of Puff's options, and a better understanding of the nuances of the character in general, then we can talk about progressing from that simplistic framework to more mature strategies and tactics. But telling someone to get better before you'll help them get better is like telling someone that they need to save up $20,000 before you'll tell them how to save money.

 

[AGLET]

can you short hop bair and then jump again? I have done it in project m but I don't think I can do it in melee

 

[the wizard howl]

stuff.

I was talking about mindset, not disagreeing with you. Being willing to be patient is good advice, but so is starting to think outside of styles and being willing to actively problem solve.

That being said, the boards oversimplifying puff (regardless of if you're talking to a new or more experienced player) is one of the reasons that there are only a handful of good puffs imo. This board's historical "be more patient and bair more” on its own does not do this character justice. I’d go so far as to say that in the long run it’s bad advice. Puff has more than one dimension but you don't get the best sense for that looking through here.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

This board's historical "be more patient and bair more” on its own does not do this character justice. I’d go so far as to say that in the long run it’s bad advice.

In the long run, "bair more" is indeed bad advice. But, in the long run, so is "Don't get hit." There probably isn't a single piece of advice that's universally helpful to all players at all levels; there always comes a point when the same piece of advice stops helping or even becomes harmful, but that doesn't mean it can't help someone in the short run. If "wavedash out of shield more" can be good short-term advice (i.e., for someone who is consistently passing up opportunities to escape shield pressure with it), I think "be more patient" can be good short-term advice as well (i.e., for someone who is probably used to a character with better approaching options than Puff).

For the record, when I asked Puff boards for tips on the Falco MU, nobody told me to bair more.

 

[the wizard howl]

can you short hop bair and then jump again? I have done it in project m but I don't think I can do it in melee

yeah you can but you have to start the bair early and I don't think you can ff the bair like at all.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

can you short hop bair and then jump again? I have done it in project m but I don't think I can do it in melee

According to the Puff frame data thread, bair lasts 31 frames minimum and short hop lasts 33 frames maximum. So it is possible but you only have a 2 frame leeway.

 

[Massive]

can you short hop bair and then jump again? I have done it in project m but I don't think I can do it in melee

Yes, I do it from time to time. You can actually waveland out of shorthop bair as well, which is a much better mixup, IMO.

I was talking about mindset, not disagreeing with you. Being willing to be patient is good advice, but so is starting to think outside of styles and being willing to actively problem solve.

This is why I'm a strong advocate of cross training (and why I've almost completely switched to playing Falco now). Playing the same way/character all the time can re-enforce your failings and keep you from moving past them. To get better you have to constantly challenge and improve your core strategies, you have to innovate.

That being said, the boards oversimplifying puff (regardless of if you're talking to a new or more experienced player) is one of the reasons that there are only a handful of good puffs imo. This board's historical "be more patient and bair more” on its own does not do this character justice. I’d go so far as to say that in the long run it’s bad advice. Puff has more than one dimension but you don't get the best sense for that looking through here.

I doubt many people who main puff are oversimplifying her. There's not really a strong repository of information on how to play on this board, and for good reason. Puff is one great big unknown to a lot of people, so all they see is bairbair bair bair or jab-reset > rest. People that are good at jigglypuff understand the games core mechanics well, and are fantastic at spacing. They could, by any rights, play any character and win (look at Mango) simply by exploiting spacing advantages, and that leads to the real issue:

You can't get good at puff without playing other people.

There is no tech skill to practice in your room late into the night, there's no setups that the CPU will help you with because they wont recover or DI like a person. You have to read your opponent (hard-ish), outspace them (sometimes easy), and beat them (moderately hard). You have to not get hit or trade so well that it doesn't matter (incredibly hard). These things being so hard is why puff is so underrepresented and why so few have broken through from mid-high level to high level.