Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[Mahone]

only ******** people have said "bair more"

i have a whole guide on each mu and my answers always give way more insight than "bair more"

this is the social thread so its not fair to judge on that

the main reason there are no good puffs is cuz this community looks down on puff players so no one really wants to play her, there are also like 100 more reasons there are no good puffs but im pretty sure it doesnt have to do with these threads

 

[the wizard howl]

what are those reasons mahone? I'd like to hear your opinions.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Nobody goes on Puff boards--I can count the frequently posting Puff mains on my fingers--but lots of people watch HBox matches and hear the commentary, and lots of people ***** about Puff when they play against one. Which do you think has discouraged more potential Puff players?

 

[-LzR-]

Puff is also very hard to play well.

 

[Mahone]

my new combo vid!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ZhW_Js8IE

 

[FerrishTheFish]

My combo videos are like a million times better.

 

[KingDozie]

Have trouble with the shiek Mu. It was just Platform needles and grabs.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Get under her if she is on a platform. If she really is JUST throwing needles, you should be able to slip in between volleys, even if you have to roll. She'll either get off the platform with an aerial or eat some uairs.

If you are getting grabbed a lot, that means spend more time in the air (e.g., work on auto-cancels, edgecancels, or just weaving) and/or more time crouching, most Sheiks will knee-jerk JC grab at least once in a set and you can rest it.

 

[the wizard howl]

I find sheik really really easy until she starts using bair to cover herself.

Separate note, why does puff beat peach? I have to work a million times harder than she does for damage and kills.

 

[Da Shuffla]

^^^ I was actually thinking about that today. Not sure how that works.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Puff's supposed advantage has to do with bigger grab and hitboxes, faster air speed, and immunity to most Peach shenanigans (which are apparently Ghost-type), but Peach has a projectile and punishes harder than everything except rest on account of being heavier and hitting harder. People seem to think that "punishing harder" is irrelevant to the MU percentages with "perfect" play, which is supposed to be devoid of punishable mistakes. Never mind that practically every one of Marth's, Falcon's, and IC's MUs are determined by how well they punish/get punished.

 

[the wizard howl]

turnips make that MU a nightmare for me. Having to account for turnips OoS or how they stick around after getting hit really screws with my spacing.

 

[Da Shuffla]

So, Puff wins the neutral game, but Peach has better punishes?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

wizard, try staying closer to her. If she feels threatened, she won't pull the turnip in the first place; if she pulls anyways, kick her in the face.

Shuffla, if you have perfect spacing and flawless tech skill, then yes, Puff has a slight edge in the neutral game. But the Puff side of the MU is still more difficult to play imo since there's more factors you have to juggle (like preventing turnip pulls) and the risk/reward ratio favors Peach.

 

[Da Shuffla]

So, basically, the only reason people think Puff wins is because Hbox is really good at it.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Pretty much. Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty even MU, and I'd honestly be willing to believe it's slight Puff favor, but it's not some horrible unwinnable MU for Peach. Some people still think Puff-Fox is even or Puff favor, even though it's probably as bad as Puff-YLink, just because HBox is unbelievably good at that MU too.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Puff/Fox is looking harder and harder these days. Given, you can kill him super early, but getting in requires SO much work.

I'd be willing to believe it's closer to even. Definitely not in Puff's favor.

 

[Massive]

The main thing in the Puff vs Peach match is nairing through turnips and vertical KOs.

If you want to practice a bunch on L-cancel timing, dair > usmash works fantastically well against peach (and every other floaty-ish including marth). You can also just uair her to KO relatively easily. Peach has fantastic spacing options utilizing her turnip, but overall her mobility is worse than puff, she dies at super low % to rest (and can't punish until mid %s) and her main annoying move (dsmash) doesn't hit more than once on puff with proper DI.

Fox vs Puff is definitely in fox's favor. He can run away laser all day, and puff is too slow to stop him.
Your best bet is to beat him in close range and gimp like crazy.

As a result, make sure you don't play on stadium or dreamland if at all possible. Fox's vertical mobility and horizontal speed make him impossible to catch on those stages. Ideally you want to fight him on smaller spaces like battlefield or yoshis, where he has less space to maneuver, dies earlier, and your hitbox size yields more control over more of the stage.

 

[MaPow]

^^^ dair > usmash is a great KO option against peach. Resting peach's dash attack OoS is easy and detrimental. Also, for edge guarding Peach, you need to chase her with bairs, and get ready for her to recover high then smack her with an uair for a KO if they are at a decent percentage. Also if you manage to eat peach's jump then you must try to capitalize on her parasol recovery. And once I have a stock lead against peach I usually just try to start reading patterns and try to land an utilt or read a getup attack or roll and rest her. Her rest punishes aren't very optimal. This is my favorite thing btw: http://youtu.be/Naxhm1Ss1os?t=3m6s.

I suck against fox, the only way I'll win is if i get grabs and am able to edge guard well.

Why does Hbox always take it to dreamland tho, i know he likes yoshis and fountain too, but it seems he always counter-picks dreamland. is it just a personal preference?

 

[Da Shuffla]

^^ My second favorite Rest in Smash history.

My guess would be personal preference/high ceiling. Assuming you were talking about the Fox matchup.

 

[MaPow]

lol, Da Shuffla, does your first favorite rest end game 4 of that GF set at Genesis?

And yea for playing fox on dreamland you get the high ceiling, but he gets more space to run away, so i guess dreamland is better for playing against foxes that are more aggressive and/or have a bad laser game. Even so, I'd personally rather take a fox to FoD or yoshi's.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Definitely. I refer to the one in Game 4 as Mango's "Iconic Rest."

 

[MaPow]

Oh forsure. It was such a pivotal rest...gives me goosebumps. But the one in game 5 was mango just straight toying with armada.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Can I have some advice on doubles?

Both general, and Puff-specific.

 

[Massive]

Puff's job in doubles is basically to hang around her teammate and not die. Wait for a rest setup and take it (mostly when your partner grabs, be there to rest).

You can do other cool stuff like using pound on recoveries (pound towards the stage to send them behind/away from the stage) as well as saving your teammate (this time pound facing away from the stage, sending them towards it).

Most of all, do your gimps, focus on survivability, use disruptive tactics (dair and nair to stop approaches) to slow down the other team, and don't be afraid to toss out more rests- they are much harder to punish in doubles, and the reward is even bigger.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

nee ur teem maet

 

[Da Shuffla]

Both very solid points.

Any sets where you noted especially good teams play, or should I just look up vids of high level Puffs?

 

[the wizard howl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxpl5mc2Vmg
look at how stupid puff can be in teams loool

 

[Da Shuffla]

I miss those days. Glad he's kind of starting to bring the Puff back, though.

 

[TheSleepyLion]

only ******** people have said "bair more"

i have a whole guide on each mu and my answers always give way more insight than "bair more"

this is the social thread so its not fair to judge on that

the main reason there are no good puffs is cuz this community looks down on puff players so no one really wants to play her, there are also like 100 more reasons there are no good puffs but im pretty sure it doesnt have to do with these threads

Why does this community look down on puff so much? Is it because she's not as flashy as characters like falcon (outside of rest, which most people rage about)? I've noticed it with my roommates, they whine constantly about Puff.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

It's probably because Puff can be a very frustrating character to play against. The other player is denied the combos/tricks that work on other characters, gets stuffed for approaching carelessly, and has the threat of Rest hanging over them like the sword of Damocles. Playing against Puff requires patience, good spacing, and single hits, which are difficult concepts for lower-level players. Until they figure out how to deal with Puff, they are going to complain.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Basically what Ferris said.

She forces you to play her game, and be far more careful/patient. Most players don't look at high level Smash and have "careful/patient" come to mind. It's there, but harder to notice with faster characters. Playing slower isn't considered cool, and playing against Puff forces you to play with more patience. So, people just blame the character, rather than adapting.

 

[MaPow]

Well said Ferris, people are always going to whine about puff. Just learn to feed off the hate my dude and just not give af and get that W with the character/playstyle that's best for you.

 

[the wizard howl]

in my experience they complain less if you use crown, more if you use bow, always if you use headband, who even uses flower?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Basically what Ferris said.

Well said Ferris.

Not to be anal-retentive (because that would literally be constipation), but there is an 'h' at the end. It is "Ferrish," which you probably don't recognize as the Manx word for "fairy," remembering of course that Celtic "fairies" ****ed people up and ate their babies in the nighttime.

 

[Da Shuffla]

My mistake, didn't realize it until later. I hate when I'm announced as "Shuffle" at tournaments, so I can kinda relate.


Also, Soft uses the flower.

People will always hate on what they can't beat/understand. The important thing is to not stop working to develop the character.

 

[MaPow]

Ferrish I apologize lol pls don't eat my babies tonight.
And I'm wearing that crown as of right now, but I switch frequently hehe

 

[TheSleepyLion]

That makes a lot of sense. I use the headband because I'm still training, I only wear the crown when I can reliably beat the people I'm playing or whenever I'm fighting a peach.

 

[MaPow]

Yea I wore the headband when I first started playing lol and I team with a peach frequently. I wish so bad that there was a team color for the crown

 

[the wizard howl]

I wish flower wasn't ugly as sin
also funny that naked puff is so forgettable