Bad Idea Mafia 4! Game Over, Scum Wins!

[Xivii]

Also Luxor respond to my #328.

 

[Xivii]

Show me how I've been illogical and explain how asking you if you were godfather is buddying you or w/e term you used to describe it.

You reason that vote counts are dumb because they add a bandwagoning factor and take away from people being accountable.

1. Bandwagons can occur without a vote count. (Bandwagons are good btw, but we wont get into that).

2. Vote counts do force people to be held accountable for their reads. They force definite positions. If someone votes someone then they are going to have to be able to explain their reasoning. Just like in a normal game. You're basically saying that vote counts in all mafia games are dumb for this reason.

It doesn't make any sense. You just needed reason to explain your pre game scum slip. So long as your post was nice and big with reasoning, people would think nothing of your spontaneous comment on vote counts being dumb regardless of how illogical the arguments were. I don't believe you would have such a strong stance on the vote system with reasoning like this.
You would at least be open to the other view. Town Gova is objective, discussing what is best. This Gova is not. You simply chose your view and argued it.

 

[-Vocal-]

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I just got back from Spring Break today and I'm catching up on the game so far. Only made it to page 2 so far, but I find it suspicious that Kuz tried to pull attention to himself so early in the day. Sort of seems like a "draw fire now, lie lower later" type deal, but it could also be nothing. I'll post other thoughts after getting caught up.

 

[BSL]

BSL, you say Gova, Delvro, Ryker, and Kuz are all possible scum, Zen's point on Summoner is plausible, and Luxor is possible, yes? Who of Gova/Delvro/Ryker/Kuz (those against voting) do you find the most scummy and why?

im going to put summoner at the top, again, because of what zen said. i went back and looked at it again, and im almost 100% convinced.

How is being against the voting scummy? Is it just being agianst the voting or is it the reactions/responses to the people who are for voting? Does having a different opinion make someone scum to you? What about people who just dismiss others opinions as wrong?

i find that the pros greatly outweigh the cons in voting, so those who want to go against something pro-town are anti-town. those adamant about being what i find anti-town are scummy. so in this instance, those who are going against my opinion are who i find to be scummy.

Yes, you did:



You acknowledge that a shooter is more likely town, but you go ahead with reasoning that quickshooters are scum anyway.
Then Gova says that they are most likely town and then you're like oh that's right and completely change your view. So basically you're scum. Are you good with shooting Gova? You're certainly making the shot today.

no, i didnt.

i acknowledged that according to statistics, a quickshooter has a higher chance of being town. but my reasoning was that quickshooters are doing something anti-town, and that makes them scum.
i thought of it as quickshooting=anti-town, quickshooters=anti-town. gova pointed out that when someone quickshoots, they are doing it because they think they have found scum, so they think they are doing something pro-town. that is why i changed my mind.

if i was shooting toDay, i would rather shoot summoner. gova's on my "scum" list because of his stance on voting, no more, no less. summoner is there because of your 326, which holds more weight, imo.

 

[Xivii]

Ah I see. I can understand that.

There is no if you shoot though. You are shooting today.

Unless I spontaneously shoot Gova, completely going against my principles.

 

[July]

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I just got back from Spring Break today and I'm catching up on the game so far. Only made it to page 2 so far, but I find it suspicious that Kuz tried to pull attention to himself so early in the day. Sort of seems like a "draw fire now, lie lower later" type deal, but it could also be nothing. I'll post other thoughts after getting caught up.

I really like it when someone views the thread with fresh eyes, because that analysis of Kuz is actually pretty accurate so far. I'm honestly dying to hear more from Kuz because his play was really interesting before Day 1, but I do know he is traveling right now so I shall have patience.

@Swords, thoughts on Delvro?

 

[July]

Votecount (8/14 for majority)
red- voted as lynch target
orange- voted as shooter
Green- voted without preference

th3kuzinator()-
Kirbyoshi()-
Gova (1)- Zen
Zen()-
Clownbot()-
Ryker()-
BSL(3)-July, Zen, Clownbot
Luxor()-
Sephiroths Masamune()-
SummonerAU (1)-
Delvro()-
-Vocal-() -
Sworddancer()-
July()-

 

[July]

EBWOP: Summoner has 0 votes right now, ignore the (1) next to him

 

[Luxor]

@Sword: from my POV it's probably the most valid thing about your case on him actually, I don't think it's that strong though.

Luxor I said why I didn't like BSL already. It's at the top of this page (40 ppp), #321.

Sorry, missed that in my quick namesearch: Clownbot.

Definitely scummy on Summoners part. That part being where it didn't seem like he wanted Zen to get a read off of him based on that question. I would be ok with him dying.

It's always funny for me when someone paraphrases the exact point I previously made. Original content, 'k?

Luxor: What game was Kuz all smiley and was scum?

Soul Calibur, I think.
Also in this post, Gova should explain away the anti-Gova sentiment.

This is not true at all. There are only three people who are not voting (Ryker, Kuz, and Gova). Everyone else is for it. Pushing for the reads of three people isn't difficult. And obviously anyone who doesn't give reads at all are just being scummy. It's not like we have to force it out of them ~o^.

Them not voting simply limits their influence on who dies. Anyone who wants say into what goes on will place their vote. It's simple.

Your logic of us having to force reads out of them doesn't make any sense at all for why we shouldn't vote. The system is placed for two reasons: to determine who shoots/gets shot and for reads. Your focus is on the read part. Using your reasoning, if we don't have a vote system, then we will have to "force" reads from EVERYONE instead of just 3. So that reason really makes no sense.

It's not about the voting/democratic process itself that I object to, it's that whoever doesn't vote gets a "get out of stances free card," basically. If voting's gonna happen, I'll be happy to support the system, do votecounts, whatever. We just can't let people breeze on through the game, which can happen with or without a votecount.

 

[Radical Fiction]

Zen, drop Gova for now. Need to be on those players that aren't doing jack ****. Luxor was right about that and moves off my scum list atm.

 

[Luxor]

Zen, drop Gova for now. Need to be on those players that aren't doing jack ****. Luxor was right about that and moves off my scum list atm.

That's kind of weird, because I still haven't said anything either.

-1

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

tl;dr
@Clownbot/Kirbyoshi/Sephiroth/Summoner/BSL: make some hard stances and post some meaningful content

It's hard to read everybody when they're not saying anything. This isn't poker, you have to show a card or two.

You didn't? Then did I imagine that?

 

[Luxor]

That's not hard content, that's saying "hey guys, make some hard content."

=/= IMO

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Zen, have you ever played with Luxor before? If so, is he going to remain obnoxious?

 

[Luxor]

At every opportunity.

 

[Xivii]

Zen, have you ever played with Luxor before? If so, is he going to remain obnoxious?

Yes I played with Luxor before. And he is right. You're moving him off your scum list just because he mentioned that people aren't doing much. That's silly reasoning to see someone as town.

 

[Luxor]

hm?

Awkwardly phrased due to tiredness lol. Gova should say meaningful stuff.

Nah, they don't. Everyone is being pressured for stances just as normal.
Voting is happening. Like right now. There's nothing really to debate about anymore. So you're down for helping out with keeping track of the votes ?
The bolded is exactly why your doubt for the vote count is irrational.

"
A. People can breeze through the game without vote counts.
B. People can breeze through the game with vote counts.
C. Therefore we probably shouldn't do vote counts because people can breeze through the game."

Do you see what I'm saying??

Yup yup, it's good.

Yes I played with Luxor before. And he is right. You're moving him off your scum list just because he mentioned that people aren't doing much. That's silly reasoning to see someone as town.

My point exactly.

Also, Zen, your avatar is Itachi, right? I'm watching Naruto through for the first time, and so far he's pretty sick.

 

[Luxor]

Nothing ever happens while it's day for me because of Europe.

 

[Xivii]

Itachi is my all time favorite character of everything.

 

[Xivii]

Luxor if I do something crazy this game like I did in Fire Emblem will you betray me again regardless of your initially strong vibes of me being town?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

So, in an attempt to validate your scum read on me, you are dismissing everything I have done early game as looking for a fight instead of scumhunting?

Keep reachin' there broski.

How have you've come to the conclusion that I've dismissed anything? I have observed that it seems like you came into this game simply "ready for a fight" (from your attack on me). However, I did not in anyway shape or form say or imply that everything you've done is simply "looking for a fight."

@July:

Delvo's a cool guy.

His game though so far is lackluster. I honestly forogt he was in this game until you asked me for thoughts on him. I did a little ISO of him (he only has five posts, not to hard), and found that he has offered up some thoughts, but he hasn't really pursued his thoughts as much as I'll of like him to have. I expect better of him.

Need to see more from Delvo. Right now null slightly leaning scum.

 

[Luxor]

Luxor if I do something crazy this game like I did in Fire Emblem will you betray me again regardless of your initially strong vibes of me being town?

Depends how crazy you act and which pair of socks I'm wearing IRL.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Zen, I'm really beginning to think this day is going to end with me shooting you.

 

[Clownbot]

Zen, I'm really beginning to think this day is going to end with me shooting you.

So what between your last post and this one prompted you to say this?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Zen saying something.

 

[Clownbot]

Ah, okay.















































...Anything in particular or....?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

There was something.

 

[Clownbot]

There was something.

Sure thing.

Do you mind if I don't believe you and assume that you're just ****ing around until you say something useful regarding the matter?

 

[-Vocal-]

Finally caught up guys, what a fun game to arrive in! Though everyone seems to be in a pissy mood, tbh. Time to bring in some sunshine

so i think we should decide the shooter before we decide the shootee. that way, the shootee wont shoot someone before we can decide a shooter.

This post came almost immediately after Summoner called BSL out on not contributing anything to the game. BSL makes no mention of Summoner's post, yet suddenly puts forth a seemingly content-possessing post. Seems like scum trying to change his patterns and be subtle about it so as to not draw more attention. This made me more wary of him than anything else, tbh.

Okay, I'm going to go on and shoot my **** and tell that my number 1 scum pick is Kuz.



Here, Kuz takes an unneccessarily rough position against me. All I did my previous post was call him out for two lines in his post that bugged me. Instead of asking for clarification as to why I called him out, he immediatly jumped to the other side of the fence, accusing me of being scum. Note how he leaves no room for me to be protrayed positively. He accuses me of focusing on fluff, but even if I did respond to every single part of his post, I would still be classified as "stubborn."

In short, my post did not call for such a response.



A bit more of the same from above.



Kuz seems to be trying to garner support here, but in the wrong way. It's kinda hard to explain, but something feels scummy about the whole "oh, well, we might disagree, but at least you're doing it better than scummy player x over there!" thing that Kuz pulls here. It's like he's trying to make me a common enemy between him and Luxor.



Most of this post is just an analysis. However, what bugs me about is how Kuz asks others if they noticed me doing a fake anaylsis. If he thinks I've been doing a fake anaylsis, then he should point it out himself. He shouldn't just subtly poke at this subject to see if it's okay to go after (which I kind of see him doing here).

So yeah, in summary, I feel Kuz is the scummiest person right now because he has came into this game being unnecessarily antagonistic. His play also feels off in the sense that he's trying to garner support but in the wrong ways ("you're play is better than his play," and "has anyone else noticed him doing this?").

---

Zen, forgive me if I missed it but what leads you to the conclusion that Gova is scummy? How have you've differentiated that this is scum Gova and not just stubborn town Gova? Summoner already asked Seph this question, but I want your response to it.

July, some have said to you this game that you're obv. town, but if you ask me you're playing a pretty "backseat" game so far. Tell me, what are you're thoughts on (and this is a semi-random pick) Ryker?

Off to my tourny now.

This is basically the same vibe that I got when I first started reading the game; I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who felt this way. Swords gets my provisional townie sticker of the day Additionally, as this is the strongest scum tell I've been able to pick out (I'm usually not very good on day one), I'm placing Kuz at the top of my scum list, and supporting a shooting of him.

Vote: Shootee: Kuzinator

Activity level (& content level):

1.) th3kuzinator =]
2.) Kirbyoshi =]
3.) Gova =]
4.) Zen
5.) Clownbot =]
6.) Ryker
7.) BSL =]
8.) Luxor =]
9.) Sephiroths Masamune =]
10.) SummonerAU =]
11.) Delvro =]
12.) -Vocal- =]
13.) Sworddancer =]
14.) July =]

Grouped ( no particular order)

4.) Zen
6.) Ryker
7.) BSL =]
9.) Sephiroths Masamune =]
13.) Sworddancer =]
14.) July =]
5.) Clownbot =]
10.) SummonerAU =]
1.) th3kuzinator =]
3.) Gova =]
8.) Luxor =]
2.) Kirbyoshi =]
11.) Delvro =]
12.) -Vocal- =]

Delvro should not be allowed to slide by this game as he had in Celebrity. Gova shouldn't be allowed to go through his inactivity spurts either. Inactives seriously need to pressured and die this game. We can't afford inactivity this game at all.

I would laugh if the three in the red were scum. But that can't be since Gova isn't in there.

I didn't even know KY was in this game until people mentioned him. He REALLY needs to post more; if he doesn't, I might advocate him for being today's daykill target instead.

Yeah, you're right. wtf was I thinking. I blame a late night and posting within an hour of waking up. Idea was to keep it ambiguous so that I might take a NK or a maf cop investigation.

what's up with this? I've been invisible since I started playing mafia, so you couldn't have been posting like you'd seen me in the online viewers list, did you think I wouldn't address a post like that?

What does this post mean - are you claiming a role here?

---


On the subject of voting, I'm in favor of it and will cooperate. While the idea of being able to go all Rambo and shoot someone off of instinct sounds fun (especially after watching J do it in Cinemafia/Nice Point Mafia), I also recognize that's not going to get us far. BSL and Kuz are my scum reads at the moment. Town reads are Swords, Zen, and Sephiroth; this is based off of both activity levels and content. Everyone else is quite null, for the time being.

 

[Xivii]

Ryker it's because I disagreed with you. It's a part of your ego ______ centrism.

 

[Gova]

You reason that vote counts are dumb because they add a bandwagoning factor and take away from people being accountable.

1. Bandwagons can occur without a vote count. (Bandwagons are good btw, but we wont get into that).

2. Vote counts do force people to be held accountable for their reads. They force definite positions. If someone votes someone then they are going to have to be able to explain their reasoning. Just like in a normal game. You're basically saying that vote counts in all mafia games are dumb for this reason.

It doesn't make any sense. You just needed reason to explain your pre game scum slip. So long as your post was nice and big with reasoning, people would think nothing of your spontaneous comment on vote counts being dumb regardless of how illogical the arguments were. I don't believe you would have such a strong stance on the vote system with reasoning like this.
You would at least be open to the other view. Town Gova is objective, discussing what is best. This Gova is not. You simply chose your view and argued it.

1. Never said they couldn't.
2. Yeah but the thing is people don't always explain their votes even when asked. I'm saying it's dumb for a bad idea mafia, not for all mafia games.

What was my pre-game scum slip? Saying vote counts are dumb? So you think I knowingly commited a scum-slip and then tried to make up reasons to explain it away? Why would I even go through that hassle when I could have just agreed to the vote count in the first place? I'd also love to hear where you're getting my town meta from considering we haven't played a game together where I've flipped yet. I won't be counting NBC since I only posted like 6 times.

It's always funny for me when someone paraphrases the exact point I previously made. Original content, 'k?

I was asked about their interaction and since I couldn't recall it, I went back to read it in isolation. Now let me ask you this, when you saw my response, was the first thing you thought, "Oh, he's parroting me." or "Oh, he picked out the same thing I thought was scummy too."? Based on your very unoriginal comment, it seems you picked the first answer. So, why is it bad that I brought attention back to something that was scummy? As town I would that you would think that I'm seeing the same scumminess you are but in the case of your quote you're just trying to make it look like I'm not really doing anything, and if I was you could just point this out without mocking me. Also, would it have made any difference if I just said, I agree with you about that?

 

[Luxor]

I was asked about their interaction and since I couldn't recall it, I went back to read it in isolation. Now let me ask you this, when you saw my response, was the first thing you thought, "Oh, he's parroting me." or "Oh, he picked out the same thing I thought was scummy too."? Based on your very unoriginal comment, it seems you picked the first answer. So, why is it bad that I brought attention back to something that was scummy? As town I would that you would think that I'm seeing the same scumminess you are but in the case of your quote you're just trying to make it look like I'm not really doing anything, and if I was you could just point this out without mocking me. Also, would it have made any difference if I just said, I agree with you about that?

@Last question: No.

Whether or not you reached your (valid) conclusion independently, it's easy for scum to ride earlier points. I'm just playing cautiously atm; cautiously in the sense that I don't want scum to slip by, which may mean I'm being nitpicky at times.

 

[BSL]

or maybe youre just looking for anything that could possibly be viewed as scummy to put attention on others?

calling people out on little things makes it look like youre doing stuff.

 

[Gova]

So you're saying Summoner's reaction to Zen trying to read him isn't scummy? It looked like he didn't want Zen to know his alignment to me, or was concerned that Zen is somehow trying to read him.

 

[Xivii]

*Facepalm*

Gova how can you not realize by now that the position you took is bogus..

1. So then you agree. However in your first explanation post you said votecounts are dumb BECAUSE they cause bandwagons. You agree with me that bandwagons will exist without vote counts. Therefore that is an invalid/illogical point to your explanation.

The irrationality of this is what leads me to conclude that it did not come from a REAL line of thought, that you didn't really have reason when making the statement.

 

[July]

Zen, drop Gova for now. Need to be on those players that aren't doing jack ****. Luxor was right about that and moves off my scum list atm.

Also, would much rather hit Sworddancer or Luxor than Zen, atm.

July, Seph, and myself are town.

Null on everyone else not mentioned.

Ryker, how have your reads/scum picks changed since the second post?

@July:

Delvo's a cool guy.

His game though so far is lackluster. I honestly forogt he was in this game until you asked me for thoughts on him. I did a little ISO of him (he only has five posts, not to hard), and found that he has offered up some thoughts, but he hasn't really pursued his thoughts as much as I'll of like him to have. I expect better of him.

Need to see more from Delvo. Right now null slightly leaning scum.

Kk thank you. Swords, anyone else you would like to hear more from? How would you feel about the lynch target being an inactive (based on post count and meaningful content)?

Finally caught up guys, what a fun game to arrive in! Though everyone seems to be in a pissy mood, tbh. Time to bring in some sunshine

This post came almost immediately after Summoner called BSL out on not contributing anything to the game. BSL makes no mention of Summoner's post, yet suddenly puts forth a seemingly content-possessing post. Seems like scum trying to change his patterns and be subtle about it so as to not draw more attention. This made me more wary of him than anything else, tbh.

This is basically the same vibe that I got when I first started reading the game; I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who felt this way. Swords gets my provisional townie sticker of the day Additionally, as this is the strongest scum tell I've been able to pick out (I'm usually not very good on day one), I'm placing Kuz at the top of my scum list, and supporting a shooting of him.

Vote: Shootee: Kuzinator

I didn't even know KY was in this game until people mentioned him. He REALLY needs to post more; if he doesn't, I might advocate him for being today's daykill target instead.

What does this post mean - are you claiming a role here?

---


On the subject of voting, I'm in favor of it and will cooperate. While the idea of being able to go all Rambo and shoot someone off of instinct sounds fun (especially after watching J do it in Cinemafia/Nice Point Mafia), I also recognize that's not going to get us far. BSL and Kuz are my scum reads at the moment. Town reads are Swords, Zen, and Sephiroth; this is based off of both activity levels and content. Everyone else is quite null, for the time being.

I think the points you bring up about BSL and Kuz are very interesting, especially considering that reading the thread after all this has happened you saw the same things Swords saw about Kuz from the beginning. One thing I would like to add to this: I re-read and have yet to see strong stances from Kuz about players (he took a very strong stance about voting).

@Kuz and Seph: What are your reads/scum picks?

 

[July]

Votecount (8/14 for majority)
red- voted as lynch target
orange- voted as shooter
Green- voted without preference

th3kuzinator(1)- Vocal
Kirbyoshi()-
Gova (1)- Zen
Zen()-
Clownbot()-
Ryker()-
BSL(3)-July, Zen, Clownbot
Luxor()-
Sephiroths Masamune()-
SummonerAU (1)-
Delvro()-
-Vocal-() -
Sworddancer()-
July()-

 

[Gova]

Never said they cause bandwagons. I just said they add a bandwagon factor that I think we don't need.

 

[-Vocal-]

Gova is so anti-town right now I'd love to shoot him dead By continuing to rebel against a plan that the rest of us agree will bring at least marginally more stability to an unstable game, he divides opinions and hampers actual scum hunting because people keep focusing on arguing against him. Ignoring him will still leave him as anti-town because he doesn't seem to like co-operating with us, which is extremely frustrating as he could be town (not sure, he's pretty null to me right now). Wish I could slap him silly irl

*sigh*

At any rate, unless you are pursuing Gova as a scum read, I would please ask you all to direct your attention towards other matters. After reading this whole game it's pretty obvious that he won't be changing his stance because someone magically convinces him he is wrong; it's better to move on as best we can and try to focus on finding scum.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I re-read and have yet to see strong stances from Kuz about players (he took a very strong stance about voting).

@Kuz and Seph: What are your reads/scum picks?

<_<

If you truly re-read my posts you would see I have been gunning for Sworddancer. almost every post after he bothered opening his mouth to spout nonsense at me.

Luxor is also scum because he has been playing a middle of the road type game that tries to make it seem as if he is actively contributing while not getting his hands dirty.