Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

[memphischains]

@Memphis: Not having it at all is a terrible idea. The community needs some sort of collective to come together and decide on a standard. Call it what you will, but in the end any collective would serve the same purpose as the Backroom, and a collective is necessary.

Before you post, consider that this also would refer to TOs agreeing on a ruleset.

Why can't the whole community be the collective. It seems *** backwards that there has to be a group of people "in charge". And don't even play that whole trolls everywhere card, because there are trolls in the back room too. Like, why would you vote in a jokingly manner on something like a stage list when apparently people actually listen to stuff you help "agree" on

and TOs agreeing on a rule set? A TO doesn't have to agree with anyone on anything. When I run things I run exactly how I want to run them. I don't ever look at anything the back room has posted for a suggested anything.

actually, its better if no TO listens to another so that way we can try an extensive ruleset

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I find it interesting that you think that top players are so uninformed about a game they have apparently mastered.

ADHD believes that Norfair is excessively random and that a 5-stage starter system is not an unfair benefit for Diddy and co.
M2K believes that Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
Ally... I forgot, what was up with him?

Mastery of the game requires more than knowledge, and sometimes not all of that. Like, if your TO is EC, you hardly ever need stage knowledge.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Maybe a 5 stage starter system is fair. ADHD is smarter than you.

Maybe diddy is the best in this game. M2K is smarter than you.

Maybe Ally does **** bricks of gold. Ally is smarter than you.


Point is, they're better than us. As different or far-fetched their beliefs sound to us, they're more credible then ours. Using the knowledge of this game that they have, they go farther in tournament than us. If what they think works, they're probably knowledgeable about this game.

And you seem to think that ADHD wanting flat stages to be the main neutrals is stupid. You need to drop this idea and you need to drop it fast. It's making people lose respect for you faster than a lot of your crap. People have preferences. I used to main Tink and want the only starters to be SV, BF, and FD. That is what I truly believed to be neutral. Was it biased? I honestly don't feel it was. Especially because now I play MK and I STILL feel that those should be the only neutrals.

Please realize you ARE NOT smarter than most top players just because you post a lot.

 

[-Vocal-]

Why can't the whole community be the collective. It seems *** backwards that there has to be a group of people "in charge". And don't even play that whole trolls everywhere card, because there are trolls in the back room too. Like, why would you vote in a jokingly manner on something like a stage list when apparently people actually listen to stuff you help "agree" on

and TOs agreeing on a rule set? A TO doesn't have to agree with anyone on anything. When I run things I run exactly how I want to run them. I don't ever look at anything the back room has posted for a suggested anything.

actually, its better if no TO listens to another so that way we can try an extensive ruleset

No. I just have to disagree with you strongly, on several points.

First - TOs would need to agree on a ruleset if we are to have a standard. Don't take this as saying every tournament will have the same ruleset/stagelist - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there needs to be a standard ruleset from which individual preference stems - such as removing Picto or adding PTAD, whatever, but they need to first agree on a standard if we want our tournaments to resemble each other. We need a standard to have a cohesive tournament scene across the country

Second, trolls are not the main problem with letting everyone make decisions. Even people who aren't trolling can be misinformed about the game or simply not know enough to make decisions.

Third, I think you're taking this "joke vote" concept out of proportion. I'm sure that this does not happen often, and if someone joke votes several times I'm sure their votes are ignored and they're removed from the backroom - give the BR some credit, they aren't idiots.

@Everyone else: The problem with Ally (as I've seen and heard) is that he doesn't know how to articulate his points with reasoning, which doesn't work when you're trying to make huge decisions. And better player does not necessarily make a better rule maker/decision maker. Many top players would be qualified, but not every single one of them is.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Maybe a 5 stage starter system is fair. ADHD is smarter than you.

Maybe diddy is the best in this game. M2K is smarter than you.

Maybe Ally does **** bricks of gold. Ally is smarter than you.


Point is, they're better than us. As different or far-fetched their beliefs sound to us, they're more credible then ours. Using the knowledge of this game that they have, they go farther in tournament than us. If what they think works, they're probably knowledgeable about this game.

Again, you're mistaking ability to play smash with knowledge of how the game works. They aren't the same thing. They cross over in various points, sure, but there are differences. You can know everything about the game, and be a ****ty player who couldn't win a basic brawl against three ******* that kill themselves more often than you can kill them. You can be able to JV4stock M2K on FD as CF, and not know how to play on Norfair or PTAD, or anything about any character other than MK or CF.
Yes, they're better players. This means we should pay attention to them if they talk and say reasonable things. It does not mean we should keep paying attention to them once they have established that they don't know what they are talking about. And let's face it-the odds of Diddy Kong being the best in the game are about as high as me winning the new york marathon next year, and "flat+plat is the only way to go" has been proven wrong so many times that it requires no further explanation.

And you seem to think that ADHD wanting flat stages to be the main neutrals is stupid. You need to drop this idea and you need to drop it fast. It's making people lose respect for you faster than a lot of your crap. People have preferences. I used to main Tink and want the only starters to be SV, BF, and FD. That is what I truly believed to be neutral. Was it biased? I honestly don't feel it was. Especially because now I play MK and I STILL feel that those should be the only neutrals.

Preferences? I'm confused how a matter like this has to do with preference. Sure, it can be your preference that you enjoy murder and think it makes the world a better place, but that doesn't make it right. We've quantified this to the extent that following it, quite frankly, makes you look like a massive idiot (or incredibly biased) if the person observing has enough background knowledge. If you'd like me to get into that here, go ahead and try me. But I recommend you research it yourself by looking in the stage discussion forum; unless you want the purpose of stage striking on the first game in a set to be "play on the most boring stage possible" or "benefit ground-based, limited, bad characters" (as opposed to what I was aware was the purpose, which is "a balanced playing field for both characters in the matchup", a goal which starter lists like the 3-starter and 5-starter both horrendously fail and the 7-starter list only slightly fails).

Please realize you ARE NOT smarter than most top players just because you post a lot.

I'm not, I know. I'm smarter than some in some fields who don't bother to try to do research in said fields because I do research. I'm not sticking my head out and claiming that I'm smarter than ADHD when it comes to Diddy Kong's matchups, or smarter than M2K when it comes to playing the game (I made a mistake like this when I ran into the MK ban debate, since then I've educated myself and changed my position to anti-ban); I'm claiming I'm smarter than them on a specific core area that I have looked into fairly heavily (stages) and that they have never been forced to due to the extreme restrictiveness of the TOs in their regions.

 

[memphischains]

No. I just have to disagree with you strongly, on several points.

First - TOs would need to agree on a ruleset if we are to have a standard. Don't take this as saying every tournament will have the same ruleset/stagelist - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there needs to be a standard ruleset from which individual preference stems - such as removing Picto or adding PTAD, whatever, but they need to first agree on a standard if we want our tournaments to resemble each other. We need a standard to have a cohesive tournament scene across the country

Second, trolls are not the main problem with letting everyone make decisions. Even people who aren't trolling can be misinformed about the game or simply not know enough to make decisions.

Third, I think you're taking this "joke vote" concept out of proportion. I'm sure that this does not happen often, and if someone joke votes several times I'm sure their votes are ignored and they're removed from the backroom - give the BR some credit, they aren't idiots.

@Everyone else: The problem with Ally (as I've seen and heard) is that he doesn't know how to articulate his points with reasoning, which doesn't work when you're trying to make huge decisions. And better player does not necessarily make a better rule maker/decision maker. Many top players would be qualified, but not every single one of them is.

To your first point, I agree to extent, but disagree with you're specifics. Things like taking items completely off is completely understandable because they are random and can things completely one sided, but there wasn't a lot of play with the rules after that.
There were a few advocates that tried to play with different options but after the first suggested ruleset was posted no one cared and pretty much followed that. Why do you think Evo completely **** on the rules that were set up? They took the oppertunity to have a major event that didn't involved a "special group of the best and the brightest" telling them how the game should be played. It is really one one sided on our part.

Your second point doesn't make any sense because there are people who are in the back room that have zero idea of what they are talking about and are really misinformed about a lot of things.

And to respond to your third point, that isn't out of wack at all.
If they are supposed to be "our leaders" and "doing what is best" then why the hell are you joking around in the one area that you're supposed to be making these desicions? There are PLENTY of places on smashboards to goof around with people. If you want to be taken seriously then you should joke.

And no, joke votes happen every single time, on every single ballet. Every. Single. Time. Fact.

The people in the BBR may not be idiots, but the BBR is.

 

[-Vocal-]

As far as I can tell, your second and third problems would be solved by a better admission process and performance checks.

As for the first, I think we can just agree to disagree ^_^

 

[memphischains]

As far as I can tell, your second and third problems would be solved by a better admission process and performance checks.

As for the first, I think we can just agree to disagree ^_^

There really isn't a good way to admit people except by statistics.

 

[Shiri]

My response to the OP is what it has been to this idea for years.

Just run your own events with your own rules.

The opinions (I don't know if "policy" is the best word, although it can feel like it if you watch the way people adapt it) pushed out by that room only have as much sway as you give them.

Of course, when you travel to bigger events (save a few in the midwest, <3 you kids), you'll most likely have to deal with it there, but if you have a good hold over events in your region, you can dictate them as you please instead of worrying about whatever rules or lists anybody else is publishing.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Ally took fifth place

edit: **** wrong thread

 

[memphischains]

They should really just start over

 

[cutter]

I was going to post earlier on this, but limited internet access for several days kinda ruined that. Time to enter the fray I guess.

The best and most efficient way to reform the BBR is to kick people out. It's as simple as that. If there are upwards of 100 people in there and only minority is actually participating back there, just cut the dead weight. I was happy when the heads of the BBR kicked out all of the old Melee players who had absolutely no business back there when it was just only the SBR. I know BBR members have been saying that people have been eventually kicked out, but it seems like there's far more there than just a couple. If only a dozen and a half people out of roughly a hundred are voting for stages and sculpting the BBR ruleset, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure something's out of whack. The BBR is a privilege, not a right.

As for telling TOs to run their own tournaments, this doesn't always work. If you're not a well-known, nationally-recognized TO, you're more than likely going to resort to using the BBR ruleset as the ruleset you use, or what your state already has as the standard. Newer TOs don't have much leeway in experimenting with new stuff because of the influence of pressure can make that person change their mind and revert back to the status quo.

 

[Mikey7]

honestly, the way to clean that crap up is remove anyone who remotely had anything positive to say about stages like green greens and port aero town, becuase really...wow....

no hate to any of u guys though, i respect ur efforts to try to add more to the game


edit:
to add more

i dont get why people who know alot about the game get in, it should be top placers only. i mean think about it, you guys can analyze all you want but do u really know hwats going on through ally or m2ks or adhd or dehfs or etcs head when theyre playing? if you know a bunch and ur not placing, theres a reason for this, think about it.

once again no hate guys i love u all, friendly convo plz

 

[Exdeath]

I've played on it, with training buddies, open mind...probably not. Do you think i invented the "idea" of tripping into cars? No, it happened. When im not at a tournament i don't take the game to serious, so i didnt save it (though now i wish i would have). But if you think im lieing.. w/e, i think its obvious that you could indeed trip into a car on PTAD. If the percent of it happening is above 0%...what does that mean to you?

At this past weekend's Holy Smash Exodus, Afro played against Red Halberd in a set on PTAD (Kirby vs. Falco, respectively). Afro immediately SDed off of the right side, because he wasn't familiar with the stage. Afro went on to adapt and, thanks in part to Red Halberd losing his second stock by tripping into the cars at ~20-30% (he was running to the right side to get away), managed to bring back the game with a decisive one-stock victory.

In the next match, Afro stage-trapped Red Halberd, taking him from 0-~83%. Red Halberd mixed up long-/short-/non-/etc.-Side-B cancels and Up-Bs, but was only able to return to the stage when Afro mistimed the Fsmash against Red Halberd's Up-B for the kill attempt on that stock. As Afro so eloquently phrased, "How does it feel to have no options?" Afro continued adapting to the stage, camping the sides during static portions ("Why are you going after me? This isn't a fighting game.") and camping/playing normally on the dynamic portions. I believe that Red Halberd lost his second stock to (ironically enough) either tripping off of the right side of the stage or running off of the right side of the stage -- I forget which.

In general, what games were played using PTAD seemed to favor characters with powerful ledge-trapping games (e.g. Meta Knight, Marth, etc.). It also was much better for characters with flexible/vertical recoveries (e.g. Meta Knight, Pit, etc.) over characters with rigid/horizontal/tether recoveries (e.g. Falco, Olimar, etc.). It is also similar to Norfair in how a considerable portion of the match progresses in a king-of-the-hill-esque fashion (more than common Smash matches do) where the stage hazards are less severe and/or more avoidable near the center of the stage.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Why is there even a backroom? It's obsolete.

 

[-Vocal-]

i dont get why people who know alot about the game get in, it should be top placers only.

Low tier mains say hello.

At this past weekend's Holy Smash Exodus, Afro played against Red Halberd in a set on PTAD (Kirby vs. Falco, respectively). Afro immediately SDed off of the right side, because he wasn't familiar with the stage. Afro went on to adapt and, thanks in part to Red Halberd losing his second stock by tripping into the cars at ~20-30% (he was running to the right side to get away), managed to bring back the game with a decisive one-stock victory.

In the next match, Afro stage-trapped Red Halberd, taking him from 0-~83%. Red Halberd mixed up long-/short-/non-/etc.-Side-B cancels and Up-Bs, but was only able to return to the stage when Afro mistimed the Fsmash against Red Halberd's Up-B for the kill attempt on that stock. As Afro so eloquently phrased, "How does it feel to have no options?" Afro continued adapting to the stage, camping the sides during static portions ("Why are you going after me? This isn't a fighting game.") and camping/playing normally on the dynamic portions. I believe that Red Halberd lost his second stock to (ironically enough) either tripping off of the right side of the stage or running off of the right side of the stage -- I forget which.

In general, what games were played using PTAD seemed to favor characters with powerful ledge-trapping games (e.g. Meta Knight, Marth, etc.). It also was much better for characters with flexible/vertical recoveries (e.g. Meta Knight, Pit, etc.) over characters with rigid/horizontal/tether recoveries (e.g. Falco, Olimar, etc.). It is also similar to Norfair in how a considerable portion of the match progresses in a king-of-the-hill-esque fashion (more than common Smash matches do) where the stage hazards are less severe and/or more avoidable near the center of the stage.

This...this makes me worried :/ For many recovery related reasons. Not to mention tripping + cars = BULL

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

honestly, the way to clean that crap up is remove anyone who remotely had anything positive to say about stages like green greens and port aero town, becuase really...wow....

no hate to any of u guys though, i respect ur efforts to try to add more to the game[/quote]

...

You do realize that when you say this, you assume not only that you know everything about these stages, but that with perfect knowledge of the stages, they are broken to the extent of being banworthy? And then you're assuming that making this mistake is enough to get one kicked out of the BBR.

When was the last time you played on PTAD or GG? How did it go, did you run into bombs/cars a lot? When was the last time you sat down and read the data about port town?

i dont get why people who know alot about the game get in, it should be top placers only. i mean think about it, you guys can analyze all you want but do u really know hwats going on through ally or m2ks or adhd or dehfs or etcs head when theyre playing? if you know a bunch and ur not placing, theres a reason for this, think about it.

once again no hate guys i love u all, friendly convo plz

i dont get why people who know alot about the game get in, it should be top placers only.

i dont get why people who know alot about the game get in

First of all, you are assuming in your above post that ADHD/Ally/etc. knowing a lot about the game warrants their getting in. Don't bull**** me, you're basically saying "they know what's going on".
I believe I made this comparison before. If I am a perfect robot with perfect reflexes and complete knowledge of the CF-MK matchup on a certain stage, I could beat M2K's MK on that stage with CF. And I mean 3-stock. Does this make me a good BBR addition? After all, I'm able to completely trounce the best player in the world with a low tier character.

The issue with this is that making the rules requires a very different skillset than playing the game. I believe I've mentioned how poorly informed several top players are (M2K thinks diddy is the best character in the game, while ADHD still can't grasp why a 5-stage starter list with FD, BF, PS1, SV, and YI is unbalanced in Diddy's favor). This is not to say that we can't learn from top players, or that we don't. It's just saying that if you have to choose who goes in the BBR between a robot who wins due to perfect reflexes and someone who happens to know how the game works from back to front but can't play worth crap, you should not go for the robot.

 

[Mikey7]

no hate to any of u guys though, i respect ur efforts to try to add more to the game

...

You do realize that when you say this, you assume not only that you know everything about these stages, but that with perfect knowledge of the stages, they are broken to the extent of being banworthy? And then you're assuming that making this mistake is enough to get one kicked out of the BBR.

When was the last time you played on PTAD or GG? How did it go, did you run into bombs/cars a lot? When was the last time you sat down and read the data about port town?









First of all, you are assuming in your above post that ADHD/Ally/etc. knowing a lot about the game warrants their getting in. Don't bull**** me, you're basically saying "they know what's going on".
I believe I made this comparison before. If I am a perfect robot with perfect reflexes and complete knowledge of the CF-MK matchup on a certain stage, I could beat M2K's MK on that stage with CF. And I mean 3-stock. Does this make me a good BBR addition? After all, I'm able to completely trounce the best player in the world with a low tier character.

The issue with this is that making the rules requires a very different skillset than playing the game. I believe I've mentioned how poorly informed several top players are (M2K thinks diddy is the best character in the game, while ADHD still can't grasp why a 5-stage starter list with FD, BF, PS1, SV, and YI is unbalanced in Diddy's favor). This is not to say that we can't learn from top players, or that we don't. It's just saying that if you have to choose who goes in the BBR between a robot who wins due to perfect reflexes and someone who happens to know how the game works from back to front but can't play worth crap, you should not go for the robot.[/QUOTE]


_______________________________________

we're people not robots - but lets say a player could do this, then yeah it does you would be the best player in the world you know how the game is played and you apply it

if you theyre uninformed, let them play on the stages in exhibitions or something

theres a reason theyre winning everything, and other people are not - they all have their opinions on the game and whatever theyre doing its working for them.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Buddy, I know how the game is played. I know every facet of it back to front, I know how to make it the very best competitive game it can be while applying the known laws of originalist theory. The problem? I'm a triple amputee in a wheelchair with reflexes that make slowbro look like ****in' speedy mc. speedster. It's sad, really. However, I know the game back to front and can share this knowledge with others.

I don't really know the game. I'm fairly decent at the game, I understand the most basic mechanics, but nothing beyond that... However, I happen to have 1/2-frame reflexes (waaay faster than any normal human), and therefore can **** on the heads of any top player, without any real knowledge of the game needed.

Yay for hyperbole. Which one of those two people belongs in the brawl backroom, mikey?

 

[Chuee]

ADHD believes that Norfair is excessively random and that a 5-stage starter system is not an unfair benefit for Diddy and co.
M2K believes that Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
Ally... I forgot, what was up with him?

Mastery of the game requires more than knowledge, and sometimes not all of that. Like, if your TO is EC, you hardly ever need stage knowledge.

M2K thinks Diddy is 2nd best. Oh, and just so you know, Gnes also said BF wasn't some "unfair benifit" towards Diddy.
Whats up with Ally? Dude thinks Falcon goes even with MK.

 

[Orion*]

i seriously doubt bpc really knows these stages as much as he sais he does LOL

 

[-Vocal-]

i seriously doubt bpc really knows these stages as much as he sais he does LOL

He's going to spout his knowledge call you a scrub for that...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i seriously doubt bpc really knows these stages as much as he sais he does LOL

Hypothetical person. Not me. :V I do know quite a bit about various stages, but I don't know it all (for people like that, ask AZ or AA)

 

[BSP]

i seriously doubt bpc really knows these stages as much as he sais he does LOL

Who knows? Instead of proving that he's wrong, we attack his status as a player.

 

[Orion*]

why bother to write a WALL of text to convince scrubs that wont give a **** what anyone else would say wrong. its not worth it ROFL

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

To inform. Regardless how misinformed the idea, I always give the perpetrator the benefit of the doubt ("maybe I'm wrong and he's right" "maybe he just didn't think of it this way" "maybe he just doesn't know what he's talking about") and explain why it's a bad rule. Why don't you do the same?

 

[Orion*]

the only thing i dont do is explain myself. all this other crap youre talking about does go through my head, you act like just because i dont write something means i didnt analyze it.

i dont really think a wall of text from me is going to convince you that youre wrong, you are to stuck in your own world.

 

[etecoon]

i seriously doubt bpc really knows these stages as much as he sais he does LOL

I bet he's thoroughly tested all of them in brawl- on international wifi

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the only thing i dont do is explain myself. all this other crap youre talking about does go through my head, you act like just because i dont write something means i didnt analyze it.

i dont really think a wall of text from me is going to convince you that youre wrong, you are to stuck in your own world.

It has before. Like, just the other day.

I bet he's thoroughly tested all of them in brawl- on international wifi

Have I claimed I have?

 

[-Vocal-]

the only thing i dont do is explain myself. all this other crap youre talking about does go through my head, you act like just because i dont write something means i didnt analyze it.

i dont really think a wall of text from me is going to convince you that youre wrong, you are to stuck in your own world.

Like BPC said, walls of text have broken his position on things. I did

doesn't mean he's wrong about everything, but if you think he's wrong just write out your reasoning.

 

[lordhelmet]

Like BPC said, walls of text have broken his position on things. I did

doesn't mean he's wrong about everything, but if you think he's wrong just write out your reasoning.

Write it out if you've got nothing better to do. Chances are BPC will dismiss everything you say and continue to play Brawl Minus on wifi

 

[-Vocal-]

Write it out if you've got nothing better to do. Chances are BPC will dismiss everything you say and continue to play Brawl Minus on wifi

Don't listen to this man. Ceaseless trolls are trolling ceaselessly. And this whole wifi Brawl- shtick is out of hand.

Though I will admit it can be hard as hell to reason with him.

 

[Orion*]

sad thing is the troll is probably right ROFL

 

[-Vocal-]

sad thing is the troll is probably right ROFL

Well...though the Brawl Minus part is false, I would have to agree that BPC disregards the majority of things that don't agree with him. A lot of times it's valid, sometimes it's not.

 

[niftybird]

Is it too big to be effective?

Yes !

 

[Shadow Moth]

I agree with niftybird.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Man that's not enough to tell us anything. Why do you think it's too big?

 

[-Vocal-]

Man that's not enough to tell us anything. Why do you think it's too big?

Higher number of inactive people = less accountability for the inactive.

At least that's my main complaint. If people aren't active they should be removed. Then, when others become inactive, it sticks out rather than being the norm.

Not to say that I can say for certain that inactive is the norm. It just seems that way from some of the information released recently.

 

[niftybird]

Higher number of inactive people = less accountability for the inactive.

At least that's my main complaint. If people aren't active they should be removed. Then, when others become inactive, it sticks out rather than being the norm.

Not to say that I can say for certain that inactive is the norm. It just seems that way from some of the information released recently.

No !

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Reported for trolling, dude. we're trying to have a serious conversation.