Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

[Shadow Moth]

Man, freaking Chen.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

No !

I'm not even sure about this. The BR is pretty large, and it's rather ineffective. I'm not sure why you think this. Please elaborate.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

If anything, the latest snafu of the Rule List 3.0 has demonstrated to us as a community that the Backroom as it stands now is broken. Currently, there are over one hundred members in the BR, but if you look at the voting that has taken place, to even state that less than half of them have participated in the voting would be a joke. For stages that dramatically effect the outcome of a match to be suddenly legal with only twenty votes of a hundred being counted, it's just too much to ask for me, as a member of this community.

There is a general disconnect with our community and the BR, and it needs to be resolved. I have thought this for a long time, but unfortunately there was never a moment to capture the wave of similar feelings that others would have. The BR as it is structured now is flawed, and must be replaced with new members and new rules to promote activity with in. Having top players dictate the course of the Meta Game seems as if it would be a great idea, until you realize that top players often do not post on the forum enough to represent their ideas or thoughts.

This isn't the first time that the BR has had issues where they had lack of votes, yet still pushed policy out. This has been a problem from the ledge grab limit to Meta Knight being allowed in tournament, to even the very first stage bans. Isn't it time to resolve these issues? At the moment, I have seriously lost faith in the ability of the BR to watch over the metagame of Brawl. Until this is resolved, I will simply run my tournaments with the rules that my state has voted on prior to all of this. However, we run the risk of our entire community becoming fragmented due to the failure at the hands of the BR.

 

[-Vocal-]

I also think that the Backroom does a lot of great work; it would just give them a better image and a better reputation if its members weren't known for being inactive. Then the people that actually do work won't have people criticizing them because some of their peers chose to do less than they did. Reputation is a very important factor in being effective.

edit@Mark: There are also a substantial number of TOs in the Backroom. I'd actually be very interested in seeing a percentage breakdown of how many BR members are TOs and how many are not.

 

[Shadow Moth]

BBR is stupid. Chen is da bess.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Being criticized isn't the problem. Many important people are often criticized, but can still lead.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Nobody uses the shine to its full potential.

I'll start by recognizing some core attributes of the shine:

It comes out faster than any other attack (Rest aside) and can be canceled just as fast. Damage is not a factor in terms of knock-back, this allows you to combo accordingly from it. Hit box is kosher. You can turn around in it. You can use it anywhere. Being able to use it anywhere with Fox's speed pretty much makes it broken.

VS Falco and Fox~

In these match ups, your primary source of combos comes from your grab. Getting grabs is hard in these match ups relative to landing a shine, and seeing as how one slip up can greatly punish you, you want to use the best of what you have. Consider the before mentioned attributes of the shine and realize the application at hand. What you need to do is concentrate on knocking them over with the shine and following up with a grab or another shine or double shine if they're near the edge. The thing is, you aren't limited to just the ground while using the shine, you can find a way to get them from anywhere. You have to get used to knowing when it's safe to poke in with a shine as well as the best ways to cancel it without getting punished and possibly getting in damage from lasers. Camp the platforms and try to find openings. When you do, take control of the match. Fox is fast enough to be able to play it safe and at the same time be able to react to openings. Being able to short hop, shine, second jump, waveland is way too good if you think about it. If the shine hits, waveland towards them, get off the platform, and tech chase or edge guard. If you're fast enough, you can come down on them from the platform with a dair and reset them, which is unlikely. If they tech the shine you will be able to react and retreat. If they shield the shine, you can just waveland away from them and onto the top platform (Assuming there is one. if it's stadium you can waveland and side B to the other side of the stage) then the far platform and laser, just depends on the situation. You could even fall off the platform you wavelanded on first, shoot a laser, and go for another shine. Platforms make Fox 10X better in most cases, this is because they give him the ability to reclaim his second jump by wavelanding, allowing you to use you shine anywhere and both jumps to place it, which isn't at all risky if you know what you're doing. Not only does wavelanding give you your jump back, but enhances your mobility to heights other characters can't compete with when backed up by the shine etc. You can do this tactic from shine out of shield too. If they crouch cancel your shine out of shield, you'll be able to end your second jump with a guaranteed bair. Keep in mind that you don't have to shine from above them to get them to fall, you can graze the platforms with your shine to knock them off and a bunch of other stuff. Focus on ways of sneaking in shines, whether it be wavelanding off a platform shining and retreating or edge canceling into shine, then retreating. A good intrusion is edge canceled dair into shine turn around then put out a bair for defense where you land, or waveland onto a different platform after that. Vs Falco, it's best to stay aggressive though.
As for FD, you can still use the shine to try to get grab combos in, but your options are a lot more limited. Switch it up from putting out nairs and wavelanding after short hop shines followed by second jumps. If the shine hits, continue towards them and waveland etc.

Vs Falcon Marth and Others~

Use the shine the same way for the most part. Instead of tech chasing you can combo by falling through platforms with aerials or whatever fits the situation after connecting the shine. You can up throw, shine under them, and waveland on a platform (Probably a top one) to follow them and catch them with a dair, nair, or uair. Maybe even another shine if they're near the ledge. You can also come under them with the shine in the same fashion after utilts or low uair. If you get good enough you can direct them onto a platform as you're wavelanding with them and shine them again. Seems like more trouble than it's worth, but if mastered it works, people don't expect it as much, nor can they do too much about it assuming you're doing it right. You can mix Fox's shine platform combos up to make combos no one's ever seen. Like this: Fox vs Peach, Yoshi's Story - Peach is on the left platform. From below, jump shine her so the top hits and she goes right, then waveland off as she falls off and bit upward because of where you positioned the shine. Combo that shine into a side b which cancels on the far right platform. Peach goes up a bit. Right as your side b cancels, jump back a bit and do another side B to the left so that it hits Peach and cancels on the top platform. From there combo into uair. Practical? No. Entertaining? Very.

I'm too lazy to go into any more detail. Once you apply the basic idea you can build off that and have fun with it.


crap typed this in the wrong place. But I agree with rPSI on this issue

 

[Shadow Moth]

Being criticized isn't the problem. Many important people are often criticized, but can still lead.

Like Julius Caesar.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's not about 'social classes', or 'having more rights', it's about people who have proven that without a shadow of a doubt, their input on all/most of the topics concerning the BBR's discussions would be greatly beneficial. I'd much rather have a group of people who have proven to be smart handling out competitive scene's direction, than the entire community, including all the numerous trolls and idiots that love causing mischief, to be able to affect something as important as our game's competitive direction. Some members of the community are very awesome, and those members are eventually admitted in the BBR so long as they prove to be consistent in their knowledge and resources. So, why is it bad to collect all of the brightest minds and ask them for their opinions regarding subjects from the competitive scene?

 

[-Vocal-]

Nobody uses the shine to its full potential.

I'll start by recognizing some core attributes of the shine:

It comes out faster than any other attack (Rest aside) and can be canceled just as fast. Damage is not a factor in terms of knock-back, this allows you to combo accordingly from it. Hit box is kosher. You can turn around in it. You can use it anywhere. Being able to use it anywhere with Fox's speed pretty much makes it broken.

VS Falco and Fox~

In these match ups, your primary source of combos comes from your grab. Getting grabs is hard in these match ups relative to landing a shine, and seeing as how one slip up can greatly punish you, you want to use the best of what you have. Consider the before mentioned attributes of the shine and realize the application at hand. What you need to do is concentrate on knocking them over with the shine and following up with a grab or another shine or double shine if they're near the edge. The thing is, you aren't limited to just the ground while using the shine, you can find a way to get them from anywhere. You have to get used to knowing when it's safe to poke in with a shine as well as the best ways to cancel it without getting punished and possibly getting in damage from lasers. Camp the platforms and try to find openings. When you do, take control of the match. Fox is fast enough to be able to play it safe and at the same time be able to react to openings. Being able to short hop, shine, second jump, waveland is way too good if you think about it. If the shine hits, waveland towards them, get off the platform, and tech chase or edge guard. If you're fast enough, you can come down on them from the platform with a dair and reset them, which is unlikely. If they tech the shine you will be able to react and retreat. If they shield the shine, you can just waveland away from them and onto the top platform (Assuming there is one. if it's stadium you can waveland and side B to the other side of the stage) then the far platform and laser, just depends on the situation. You could even fall off the platform you wavelanded on first, shoot a laser, and go for another shine. Platforms make Fox 10X better in most cases, this is because they give him the ability to reclaim his second jump by wavelanding, allowing you to use you shine anywhere and both jumps to place it, which isn't at all risky if you know what you're doing. Not only does wavelanding give you your jump back, but enhances your mobility to heights other characters can't compete with when backed up by the shine etc. You can do this tactic from shine out of shield too. If they crouch cancel your shine out of shield, you'll be able to end your second jump with a guaranteed bair. Keep in mind that you don't have to shine from above them to get them to fall, you can graze the platforms with your shine to knock them off and a bunch of other stuff. Focus on ways of sneaking in shines, whether it be wavelanding off a platform shining and retreating or edge canceling into shine, then retreating. A good intrusion is edge canceled dair into shine turn around then put out a bair for defense where you land, or waveland onto a different platform after that. Vs Falco, it's best to stay aggressive though.
As for FD, you can still use the shine to try to get grab combos in, but your options are a lot more limited. Switch it up from putting out nairs and wavelanding after short hop shines followed by second jumps. If the shine hits, continue towards them and waveland etc.

Vs Falcon Marth and Others~

Use the shine the same way for the most part. Instead of tech chasing you can combo by falling through platforms with aerials or whatever fits the situation after connecting the shine. You can up throw, shine under them, and waveland on a platform (Probably a top one) to follow them and catch them with a dair, nair, or uair. Maybe even another shine if they're near the ledge. You can also come under them with the shine in the same fashion after utilts or low uair. If you get good enough you can direct them onto a platform as you're wavelanding with them and shine them again. Seems like more trouble than it's worth, but if mastered it works, people don't expect it as much, nor can they do too much about it assuming you're doing it right. You can mix Fox's shine platform combos up to make combos no one's ever seen. Like this: Fox vs Peach, Yoshi's Story - Peach is on the left platform. From below, jump shine her so the top hits and she goes right, then waveland off as she falls off and bit upward because of where you positioned the shine. Combo that shine into a side b which cancels on the far right platform. Peach goes up a bit. Right as your side b cancels, jump back a bit and do another side B to the left so that it hits Peach and cancels on the top platform. From there combo into uair. Practical? No. Entertaining? Very.

I'm too lazy to go into any more detail. Once you apply the basic idea you can build off that and have fun with it.


crap typed this in the wrong place. But I agree with rPSI on this issue

Umm...accidental post in the wrong thread?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

lol, oops, my bad

 

[niftybird]

I do not think that post was accidental!!
But Fox cannot waveland!

 

[Shadow Moth]

I disagree. It just takes a lot of techskill.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Here's Moth, proving once again he doesn't know **** about anything

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The bigger issue is the disconnection they have with the community. I dont see how anyone can disagree that they did an amazing job on the MK issue. Several threads, several polls, lots of bbr involvement even if not everyone voted. In the end that had an issue that was split down the middle and was going to affect both sides opinion of the game, and they made an informed decision on a split issue. The BBR doesnt need to be built to follow simple majorities.

 

[-Ran]

Moving discussion along. What does everyone feel that the requirements for membership should be? Should there be percentages of certain sects of members, and so on?

 

[-Vocal-]

Am I wrong, or is it just a post about Melee? I admit I don't know much about Fox in Brawl, but when you said grab combos I thought "that doesn't sound right"

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Posted in the wrong place, i think i said that allready, sorry.

 

[niftybird]

Moving discussion along. What does everyone feel that the requirements for membership should be? Should there be percentages of certain sects of members, and so on?

No! That is much too arbitrary!

 

[-Vocal-]

Posted in the wrong place, i think i said that allready, sorry.

I know, I was just curious

As far as BBR requirements, I don't think it would be right to require percentages of certain demographics; this could lead to qualified applicants being denied or under-qualified applicants being admitted. As for the admittance requirements, I believe that providing evidence of consistently being able to speak about the game in a respectful, knowledgeable manner would be the best indicator of a good future member. Tournament attendance and placement should also be considered, though the first more than the second; I believe that would instill a bias towards players who main higher tiered characters, as it is easier to place well with them. Tournament attendance, knowledge of their workings, and ability to place themselves inside the mind of tournament attendees is highly important though.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Someone seriously do something about that guy. I'm about to find where he lives and punch him in the face for excessive usage of small sentences and exclamation points.

EDIT:

On Vocal's last sentence, I completely agree, except tournament attendance shouldn't have an extreme amount of influence, either. There are many community members that have proven themselves to be not only intelligent, but very reliable for information, though only able to attend tournaments once in a while due to lack of money, distance, parents, school, etc.

However, that shouldn't take away from the people who have the same characteristics that do attend tournaments a lot, but just figured I'd say that.

 

[Shadow Moth]

Nifty bird I don't think that is specific enough.

 

[niftybird]

Who are you!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Someone seriously do something about that guy. I'm about to find where he lives and punch him in the face for excessive usage of small sentences and exclamation points.

Use Forum Support.

 

[Shadow Moth]

Nifty bird there is no reason to get mad at him.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Use Forum Support.

Haha I'm not that bothered by it.

Either way, sort of said something constructive and productive in that same post, edited in.

 

[BSP]

Moving discussion along. What does everyone feel that the requirements for membership should be? Should there be percentages of certain sects of members, and so on?

I think a member of the BBR should be well known to the community, and this can be done in a variety of ways. Top players are obviously going to be known, so they should be in for character knowledge. As for TOs, I think you need to be an influencial TO to get into the BR. Maybe not host a national, but at least be a big influence to your region (not sure if state is too small, feel free to express your opinion). Showing your knowledge on SWF is a good factor too, and a good thing to look at since we want the members to be connected with the community.

So basically, be a
Top player
Influencial TO
Or show great knowledge of the game

Yeah, it is what we have now, but I don't think it's a bad system. It could be better if the BBR was split into different sections, like already mentioned (Rulesets, Stage Legality, Tier Lists, etc.) If someone sees you in the room, the community should know how you're contributing.

My opinion.

One more thing. I don't really mind the amount of people in the BR as long as you are helping and making contributions.

 

[-Final-]

In my opinion, they should completely get rid of the BRoomers title and color. For most people, that's the ONLY reason they would want to join it. Get some people who actually want to help, not idiots who want to boast about their title.

 

[BSP]

Purple's not that cool...

But if you're willing to do all the work to be deemed worthy of the title, you should get it. You'd still have to help of course.

 

[Deleted member]

Requirements to be considered for admission into the backroom:

-Be a knowledgeable player of the game(or at least show a wealth of knowledge in a particular area of it).

-Be able to actively participate in discussions within the BBR.

-Be able to vote in most of the polls. If you don't vote, please state that you don't know enough about the particular subject to be exempt.

-Show a record of your past tournament attendance and how long you have been playing Brawl competitively.

 

[san.]

I believe calling in/contacting "guests" that the general consensus knows is very knowledgeable about a certain facet of brawl, like a game mechanic, character, or stage, yet for whatever reason is not in the BBR should be considered, even if only limited communication is available such as a PM asking for their opinions on a specific matter, in order to minimize the number of times most of the members of BBR lack key information about something.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well there's stuff like temp debater, so why can't there be temp BBR?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Moving discussion along. What does everyone feel that the requirements for membership should be? Should there be percentages of certain sects of members, and so on?

One of the following criteria.

1. You are extremely knowledgeable about a (or multiple) facet(s) of brawl. This would give you access to part of the backroom that pertains to that facet of the game. Many top players would go in here, along with certain other people like Veril who are genius at things like frame data.
2. You are a top TO. Let's face it, without top TO support, it's just as useful as the old BBR (not very).

Also answer my IMs you buttmunch.

 

[BSP]

Well there's stuff like temp debater, so why can't there be temp BBR?

How so?

Would you do the normal application, become a temp BBR, then have to prove your worth?

Or would you just apply for the BBR, get in immediately, and then have to prove that you should stay? This system wouldn't work really well if the BBR continues to uphold its privacy policy(unless we made a completely separate forum for tmep. BBRers).

I would just stick with the normal application, since it pretty much reveals what you know and what you're capable of.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think temp BBR would be via request of other BBR members asking for expertise. Or perhaps they could it to admit new members, see if they are active and contributing.

 

[-Vocal-]

Well there's stuff like temp debater, so why can't there be temp BBR?

What is this debater thing that people keep talking about?

 

[BSP]

To be able to post in the Debate Hall Forum, you must first apply to be a temp. Debator. A moderator then approves your request, then you receive access to the proving grounds, where you must prove your debating skills worthy of the main room. While a temp Debator, you can't post in the regular DH though.

If the same system was applied to the BBR, it could work, but the privacy would be shot IMO.

 

[-Vocal-]

To be able to post in the Debate Hall Forum, you must first apply to be a temp. Debator. A moderator then approves your request, then you receive access to the proving grounds, where you must prove your debating skills worthy of the main room. While a temp Debator, you can't post in the regular DH though.

If the same system was applied to the BBR, it could work, but the privacy would be shot IMO.

Wow, I've never noticed that section of SWF before

 

[Deleted member]

Me either. You learn something new everyday.

 

[memphischains]

Look, there really just isn't anything good about the back room. It has to be one of the biggest shams I have ever seen, literally.

If you can name ten things that the back room does that an individual with any common sense couldn't do I will bake you a batch of cookies in the letters of B and R and send them directly to your house.
No, not even 10.

All they do is

A) Make the tier list (which is forever arguable and useless to begin with)

B) Make the ruleset (anyone that has played the game for more than a month at a competitive level could make, or at least a decent one and learn from there)

C) Make the stagelist (well, not really looking at the newest one)

D) Have pillow fights with each other

E) Analyze characters (which they only do to have something else to make themselves feel special and show that they are doing more than posting about absolutely nothing while their thumbs are up their butt)

F) Talk about Metaknight