Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

[Shaya]

No, I am pretty fail at smash, I'm far away from being a high level player. So that is true.

I (nearly) solely represent my nation in the BBR as a player and TO; I actively fight stubbornness (I Fight FOR JUSTICE) and I whip together projects in moments.

Perhaps you should extend your question. Can someone do what I can as well or better? Yeah, probably.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not asking about Rajam though.

Shaya out of those things I can appreciate you representing Australia as a TO. But having an opinion no matter how strongly somebody argues for it doesn't make that someone BBR material.

 

[TheMike]

I'm not asking about Rajam though.

But Shaya led important projects like the rule set revision and the tier list.

 

[Flayl]

But Shaya led important projects like the rule set revision and the tier list.

No disrespect to Shaya but those aren't exactly things that would never come to be if it weren't for him. Anyway his relevance to his region merits him being in the BBR IMO.

 

[Shaya]

I'm a politician.

Sure someone could have done those things, but they didn't.
But through my region comes slight impartial focus; my merits elsewhere since my admittance (as well as others), show why we're good to be in there.

Because being smart, active and loving this game is a lot more important to me when new people get admitted to the BBR than "BEST DIDDY KONG; GET ON MY LEVEL".

 

[Flayl]

Let me give an example. Say I felt really strongly about a rule or a setting: I made a thread about using 2 stocks instead of 3 in multi-game tournaments, let's pretend I want this setting to be the default for all tournaments.

I make a thread with AmazingAmpharos sized posts, with graphs trying to show how it's more efficient and a list of videos trying to prove it's just as skill-based as 3 stocks but faster paced or something. Would you say putting that much effort into it makes me a good candidate for the BBR?

 

[Shaya]

effort in things that are warranted

Not saying what you suggested isn't, but to answer your question, feasibly, yes.

But like all politicians, not every one gets in, no matter how good their policies and how just their goals are.

 

[Flayl]

I might be making a big assumption here but that attitude (and the lack of participation, moreso the lack of participation) is what's creating the "disconnect" between the BBR and the tournament-going public.

 

[memphischains]

If the back room gets rod of overswarm I won't hate it has much.

my hatred would decrease about 241 percent

 

[swordgard]

If the back room gets rod of overswarm I won't hate it has much.

my hatred would decrease about 241 percent

Except nobody cares about what you think.


Really targeting 1 members without any extensive evidence is just bad.

 

[Marc]

Ankoku was extremely useful before he started getting more into smash >_>

Basically, some deserves to get in if they'll be helpful to the BBR and love Smash. End of story. Anyone that thinks otherwise would need to swallow their pride and accept that if someone is useful, it doesn't matter what their other traits are. Using them as scapegoats of "something gone wrong" is... less than stellar.

But everything Ankoku did pertained to competitive smash and he did dive into it more over time, so I wouldn't say there was no "competitive affinity". What I meant by that is that our rulesets aren't meant for players who are casual in how they play and think about the game and our membership reflects that. Basically, we're only useful to a subset of the people who own Smash Bros. games and aren't out to make things "fun".

Confirmation bias says rPSI is correct.

That's right Marc. That was a meta post.

Very nice.

 

[Albert.]

Does anyone else think the OP is mad impetuous? I think I subscribed to this s*** like a month ago to see where y'all were headed with this stuff.

Mr. Marc... Why you even answering these guys? BBR is your group LOL They're all just jealous.

BE REAL DICTATORS AND ignore the people like you're supposed to!

 

[-Ran]

Does anyone else think the OP is mad impetuous?

I created this thread to get the thoughts of the community during a troubled time. I believe that due to the [mostly] intelligent discussion that took place here that certain things were pushed through quickly in the Back Room. Typically when someone states that they want a revolution, it's because they want to achieve accountability through compromise. I believe what occurred after the release of the rule set was that players and the Back Roomers held different definitions and ideals of how powerful the Back Room was.

The players viewed the Back Room as an organization that wielded power, and that their judgments and the composition of their posts should reflect the sway in the community that they had. The BR members however, constantly described themselves as a private club, that was merely posting their individual findings. Both sides understood the shortcomings [lack of activity], but the weight of it and the disconnect of the rules/findings varied gravely by the perceptions of each side. It did not help, that the Back Room seemed so ready to wield power during the Meta Knight polls and discussions. It created a view of perceived power.

Players People yearn for a government body to structure their world. If it isn't from instinct, then it is beaten to us as children the moment we can talk. They don't want suggestions, but rather form and function. Unfortunately, the Back Room is neither a government body, nor would it have the capacity in its current incarnation to create any lasting impacts. Almost every Tournament Organizer follows their own rules at this point, regardless of what nation or state they hail from. The only way an oversight community would ever be constructed, is if the vast majority of it was composed of Tournament Organizers, who would then invite top players to speak on issues. At the end of the day, the TOs have total power, but remain disjointed in both ideals and rule structure. Popular opinion rules Smash, rather than logic, results, and debate.

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So I take it this idea is just gonna get dropped?

 

[lordhelmet]

Stop linking that post no one cares, sorry.

 

[-Vocal-]

Except nobody cares about what you think.


Really targeting 1 members without any extensive evidence is just bad.

Swordgard, I now love you - have my child, please

And I think that this thread actually did make some difference; even if it only reached a couple BR members (or maybe many, who knows how many viewed but didn't post) I'm sure that the posts were kept in mind, and possibly brought up in the BR itself.

 

[Karcist]

Fortunately, the tournaments in my region don't use the terrible new suggested rule set so I don't have to worry about it.

 

[-Vocal-]

Fortunately, the tournaments in my region don't use the terrible new suggested rule set so I don't have to worry about it.

Perfect! I bet you every stage that's legal is in the Recommended Rule Set, and perhaps the only rule changes would be in regards to a LGL (and many people have explained why there could not be one in this ruleset) or infinites (debatable depending on which philosophy you hold) - so that would mean that the TO picked and chose what they wanted yet their ruleset was still close to 3.1?

Wow, it's almost like the BR tried to create a rule set where this could happen everywhere.

I'm sorry, I'm feeding a troll....I GUESS....bah, I'm in a sarcastic mood right now anyways.

 

[Teh Future]

first thing bbr needs to do: ban budget player connect

 

[Karcist]

Perfect! I bet you every stage that's legal is in the Recommended Rule Set, and perhaps the only rule changes would be in regards to a LGL (and many people have explained why there could not be one in this ruleset) or infinites (debatable depending on which philosophy you hold) - so that would mean that the TO picked and chose what they wanted yet their ruleset was still close to 3.1?

Wow, it's almost like the BR tried to create a rule set where this could happen everywhere.

I'm sorry, I'm feeding a troll....I GUESS....bah, I'm in a sarcastic mood right now anyways.

The LGL and infinites are the problems I have with the rule set. If those weren't in place I wouldn't have a problem with the rule set.

 

[-Vocal-]

Things like that are defined as arbitrary buffs and nerfs; they cause characters to become better or worse simply because of subjective criteria of what some people consider "right and wrong." Think about the LGL; MK is the only reason to have one. However, if the BBR placed a LGL on him in the official rule set, they would be admitting that the character as is is too broken to be played competitively, and once they admit that the only proper thing to do is to ban him. That's the logical standpoint on things.

And infinites - if you banned one, you'd have to ban then all. Granted, DDD's standing infinite on Donkey Kong is a lot easier to perform than an ICs infinite on Lucario, but ease of skill and effectiveness can't be an issue. (I think they're dumb, and I feel pain for those on whom he can do it, but it's just sound reasoning.) Once again, if you determined that DDD's infinites are too broken to be in the game, the only logical thing you are allowed to do without opening the floodgate on arbitrary character rules is to ban the character, and that's not a trade that the BBR wanted to make.

Got questions on IDC or are you already clear on that?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Things like that are defined as arbitrary buffs and nerfs; they cause characters to become better or worse simply because of subjective criteria of what some people consider "right and wrong." Think about the LGL; MK is the only reason to have one. However, if the BBR placed a LGL on him in the official rule set, they would be admitting that the character as is is too broken to be played competitively, and once they admit that the only proper thing to do is to ban him. That's the logical standpoint on things.

I take it that you've never been planked by a Pit or G&W then.

Also LGL is garbage - it EXPLICITLY allows a character to plank X amount of times which logically can never be the solution to planking. The LGL has so many ridiculous loopholes and I've actually seen them played out - it's easily possible to time the opponent out via planking even with the LGL in place. It's easy enough to plank down the remaining 3 minutes with lots of character and you can easily stay under any amount of ledge grabs.
On the other hands it's easily possible to surpass the limit without even noticing it - in a pool match at a german tourney the other weekend there was a time-out between a Diddy Kong and a Samus player. The Samus player did not plank but when the timer ran out he had 68 ledgegrabs and lost the game for being timed out by his opponent. Talking about arbitrary nerfs rules, huh?

While we're on the subject: Why don't we also just ban Sonic instead of arbitrarily limiting him by banning his HA stall? After all, we're supposed to ban the whole character and not just the technique, right? Isn't that how pro-ban (aka dumb) logic works?

I wish everybody would just agree to use the TJ ruleset and such problems will be gone. But the BBR would probably go to any extreme - keep the timer too low, use unfair stages - the establish a ruleset that arbitrarily buffs MK. Oh well, MK is clearly the problem of the US metagame (there are no such issues in Japan, Mexico or Europe) - I wonder why...

 

[Raziek]

There are no such issues in Japan, Mexico, or Europe, because they're playing in a DIFFERENT METAGAME, based around DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES, WITH DIFFERENT PLAYSTYLES.

All you have to do is take a look at the NY/NJ area to see that:

1) The stage list fixes nothing.
2) MK is gonna dominate anyway. The US plays pretty gay, so the US plays MK.

Sonic's HA is completely different, because he's stalling where he can't get hit. When MK planks the ledge, (barring the fact that he's still invincible), you can still at least TRY to hit him and not have a high chance of SD'ing if you aren't one of probably 3/4's of the cast. To actively engage Sonic you have to be like, ROB, PIT, MK, or some other character that can go all the way under the stage. The majority of Match-ups in the game can't reasonably be expected to hit Sonic.

Furthermore, HA stalling is CLEARLY stalling, while just straight up playing on the ledge is not.

Stop straw-manning Gheb.

 

[Overswarm]

You can just spot dodge and Sonic's HA goes straight down. How do people not know this?

 

[Life]

You can just spot dodge and Sonic's HA goes straight down. How do people not know this?

Because it's not true, that's why.

If Sonic is touching the bottom of the stage when he HA's, he will hit the stage every time, regardless of where the opponent is.

 

[Flayl]

That's been said so many times it's amazing how OS hasn't picked that up. It's like an urban myth that just won't go away.

 

[Shaya]

overswarm is just testing you.

If you didn't correct him, he'd know you're the type of scrub who doesn't think Pokemon Stadium 2 is a legit starter stage.

 

[swordgard]

That's been said so many times it's amazing how OS hasn't picked that up. It's like an urban myth that just won't go away.

If you feel like targeting people, its amazing how you still believe Bowser still deserves a free win whenever he side-b's people.

 

[ADHD]

If you feel like targeting people, its amazing how you still believe Bowser still deserves a free win whenever he side-b's people.

--but you still lost to inui twice.

 

[Browny]

hurrr durrr it's amazing how people still believe MK deserves a free win whenever he gets a % lead and a ledge is nearby.

You can just spot dodge and Sonic's HA goes straight down. How do people not know this?

Because people make efforts to educate themselves and dont regurgitate what ignorant randoms told them in 2008.

 

[Flayl]

If you feel like targeting people, its amazing how you still believe Bowser still deserves a free win whenever he side-b's people.

Spite for the sake of spite? Classy.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

While we're on the subject: Why don't we also just ban Sonic instead of arbitrarily limiting him by banning his HA stall? After all, we're supposed to ban the whole character and not just the technique, right? Isn't that how pro-ban (aka dumb) logic works?

No, that's anti-ban's logic. Pro-ban will do things like actually try to get some surgical limits applied, but then anti-ban steps in and says that if one aspect is bannable and then the whole thing should be banned. Then they trollface.jpg as they plank you b/c the BBR will never ban MK.

 

[swordgard]

No, that's anti-ban's logic. Pro-ban will do things like actually try to get some surgical limits applied, but then anti-ban steps in and says that if one aspect is bannable and then the whole thing should be banned. Then they trollface.jpg as they plank you b/c the BBR will never ban MK.

Wait wait what?!??!


There is no side choosing in this, surgical rules are just plain wrong. Both proban and anti ban should be against those.


Also flail yes, if your going to attack members for every single bit of info they do not know, then I don't see why I can't just bring up how biased towards your own character you are.


Finally ADHD, I lost to inui twice. How does that matter? Simple, it doesn't. Get better at trolling if you want to get at me.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not attacking OS, I'm genuinely surprised that rumor still exists even after sonic mains always correct it.

But good job admitting you weren't making a constructive post.

 

[Browny]

Also flail yes, if your going to attack members for every single bit of info they do not know, then I don't see why I can't just bring up how biased towards your own character you are.

Pfft, the two have nothing in common.

Its one thing to not know a certain fact, its a whole nother thing to repeatedly state the same lie over and over which has been corrected countless times over multiple years and then insinuate that anyone who think otherwise is ignorant.

 

[swordgard]

Pfft, the two have nothing in common.

Its one thing to not know a certain fact, its a whole nother thing to repeatedly state the same lie over and over which has been corrected countless times over multiple years and then insinuate that anyone who think otherwise is ignorant.

I rarely if never have seen OS actually insinuate someone is ignorant, people just tend to assume his tone. Furthermore you have no way of proving his intention was to tell people they were ignorant if they agreed with him. Maybe he simply did not know about this, how can you assume he knew this? Maybe he forgot? You are accusing a member with nothing but assumptions.

 

[-Vocal-]

Wow, this thread kinda burst into activity while I was asleep, and there aren't even any trolls ^_^

I take it that you've never been planked by a Pit or G&W then.

I have been. I grab them when they do it

And for characters who don't have Oli's grab, many still have other tools to deal with them. Snake has grenades, (would Falco's tilts still be in range after getting his shield pushed?), Pikachu has thunderjolts (or thunder?), Lucario has Dair if timed correctly (I'd assume anyhow), G&W has Dtilt - I could probably go on, but the point is that characters can do things about those two planking (esp. G&W, he has the biggest window of vulnerability iirc). This isn't the case with MK, where only a handful of characters can do anything about it - even MK has trouble stopping another MK from planking.

Also LGL is garbage - it EXPLICITLY allows a character to plank X amount of times which logically can never be the solution to planking. The LGL has so many ridiculous loopholes and I've actually seen them played out - it's easily possible to time the opponent out via planking even with the LGL in place. It's easy enough to plank down the remaining 3 minutes with lots of character and you can easily stay under any amount of ledge grabs.
On the other hands it's easily possible to surpass the limit without even noticing it - in a pool match at a german tourney the other weekend there was a time-out between a Diddy Kong and a Samus player. The Samus player did not plank but when the timer ran out he had 68 ledgegrabs and lost the game for being timed out by his opponent. Talking about arbitrary nerfs rules, huh?

...

um, I'm against LGLs, you understand, right? Which is why I would agree that it's a shame that Samus lost; Samus on a ledge isn't the problem, and LGLs just penalize people that don't need or deserve it. So we're on the same page about LGLs

While we're on the subject: Why don't we also just ban Sonic instead of arbitrarily limiting him by banning his HA stall? After all, we're supposed to ban the whole character and not just the technique, right? Isn't that how pro-ban (aka dumb) logic works?

Raziek answered this one pretty nicely, no need to restate what's already been said

I wish everybody would just agree to use the TJ ruleset and such problems will be gone. But the BBR would probably go to any extreme - keep the timer too low, use unfair stages - the establish a ruleset that arbitrarily buffs MK. Oh well, MK is clearly the problem of the US metagame (there are no such issues in Japan, Mexico or Europe) - I wonder why...

Your belief that there are "unfair stages" is due to your philosophy; stages are banned on subjective criteria, and unfortunately not everyone's going to agree on what is or is not too intrusive to competitive gameplay. (That said, I think Rainbow Cruise is incredibly dumb simply because of how good it is for Meta Knight, but that's just my personal opinion.) And you're tossing that word "arbitrarily" around a bit too freely; it's not like this ruleset was directly applied only to Meta Knight nor was it created with the intention to buff him. I'm sure it helps several other characters as well - for instance, Pit can plank his little heart out if he wants to, Peach can float around all day on DP (including a water stall, something I just found out this weekend), and the lack of a ban on infinites means DDD's life just got a little bit easier in some matchups. The ruleset helps a lot of different characters as well as hurting others, but it wasn't done for any particular one of them. Plus Meta Knight is usually going to benefit the most from any rule set just because he's the best, unless that rule set is designed with the explicit intent to make him worse than he is, which is shaky ground imo.

I like Ninetales better (Plus idk if I rly want Omanyte at the end of my post)

 

[ADHD]

Finally ADHD, I lost to inui twice. How does that matter? Simple, it doesn't. Get better at trolling if you want to get at me.

Kinda does, considering everyone had high hopes for you.

 

[BSP]

You can just spot dodge and Sonic's HA goes straight down. How do people not know this?

I'm just hoping you weren't serious.

It's sad how many people still believe 08 Sonic info.

 

[swordgard]

Kinda does, considering everyone had high hopes for you.

Still not relevant to the matter at hand?