Austin TX, Brawl/ Melee tourny July 11th

[PozerWolf]

Trust me, it makes a differences.

1 min can change a lot of things in this game.

 

[LeeHarris]

How would it affect the game negatively? You keep saying "it's too long," but why is it too long?

 

[Kal]

Pozer, the "trust me" argument isn't going to convince anyone.

 

[Hylian]

I prefer 8 mins.

 

[Dojo]

Wow everyones going. I wanna goo

 

[Popertop]

Why won't you ban green greens?

 

[Sai Winner of Games]

Sigh, I want to go even if xelic is just going to take all our money, but I will have to be in the hospital all day. QQ. Also if I went Tristan would probably follow me, so at least have to put up with him. I will go to the next one though.

 

[PozerWolf]

Maybe because its just obvious to me how the timer being an extra minute later can effect a match do to how I came from other fighting games.
I dunno.

If your unable to see how the extra minute can change the match quiet a bit, then there is only so much I can help people with.

Having it at 8 mins does not prevent anything, but gives the option more options of trying to score better keep away (thus, making matches longer).

I'm not saying it makes matches longer as an announce(?), but as it gives certain character the advantage they may need (especially when it comes to counter picks).

Personally, I would say have the timer at 6 mins.
However, with the way people do rules around here (which is something I'll never fully understand, but whatever), having it set to 7 mins should be the latest. Any later would be silly.



EDIT: Ah, in the end the arguement would be pointless seeing as how this event will be running the timer at 7 mins.

 

[The MC Clusky]

Well, it IS because I gave him a rule set to begin with.

Stages are wacky though. Not that it really bother me too much.

 

[LeeHarris]

Pozer, you tend to act cocky as if playing Guilty Gear gives you any kind of credibility whatsoever in Smash. It is a completely different game.

And I swear I'm not trying to be rude in the least bit, but I can't really understand what you're trying to say.

Matches shouldn't have to end in time. It's hard to kill in Brawl, and often times certain matchups on certain stages can cause the game to end by time. Having the extra minute as an option has prevented this in every situation I've seen. There is a myth that having a lower time equals less camping. Anyone who is going to camp is going to camp regardless of the time limit.

 

[Dojo]

Eh any chances of my coming have been shot down.
Santi's on vacation.
Cake's being a poontang.
And ****...

 

[Fogo]

wtf is pozer talking about?

 

[Kal]

There is a myth that having a lower time equals less camping. Anyone who is going to camp is going to camp regardless of the time limit.

And really, you're more likely to camp with less time. Unlike Pozer, though, I will go about justifying my claim:

If you have less time to drain with a stock advantage before you win, draining the time becomes that much more viable. In other words, if you have to wait an additional minute, you have to camp for that much longer, and the risk-over-reward ratio becomes larger and less appealing.

Consider the tournaments held by Gamestop, with 1 minute timers. What happened when a lead was taken? Players camped until time ran out. Why? Because that's optimal play. If the time were set to 8 minutes, and the stock was lost within 1 minute, would camping be optimal play? No. It takes less than 7 minutes, typically, for you to lose a stock, after which you are again tied, and unable to declare yourself the winner when time runs out.

The risk in camping until time runs out is directly proportion to how much time is left. If there is only 1 minute left, then camping is sensible, as surviving for a minute isn't unbelievably hard. If there are 8 minutes left, then it may be difficult to keep a one stock lead until the match concludes. Because of this, reducing the time limit by one minute instead decreases the risk in camping, which lowers the risk-over-reward ratio, making camping a more viable strategy.

 

[PozerWolf]

Pozer, you tend to act cocky as if playing Guilty Gear gives you any kind of credibility whatsoever in Smash. It is a completely different game.

And I swear I'm not trying to be rude in the least bit, but I can't really understand what you're trying to say.

I'm not trying to sound cocky, but there really is no way to dumb it down any further without having to completely explain the whole thing (would require a lot of typing, something I don't want to do for such a discussion).

There is nothing wrong with someone winning by Time Out, its normal in a fighting game.
And of course Brawl is different from Guilty Gear, but in the end all fighting games share the same principles.


If you can't understand that much, then like I said before there is only so much I explain without having to dumb down everything I say so everyone can understand.

 

[Kal]

I'm not trying to sound cocky, but there really is no way to dumb it down any further without having to completely explain the whole thing (a discussion I don't want to get into).

We're all reasonable here, but if you don't wish to explain your reasoning, then it is best that you don't make a statement at all about what is best for the community.

 

[PozerWolf]

We're all reasonable here, but if you don't wish to explain your reasoning, then it is best that you don't make a statement at all about what is best for the community.

Maybe explaining it 100 more times would help.
Ummm, nope, done that.

in general, this time discussion has been done before in other topics.
Saying how adding more time prevents camping when really it does not. And I explain situations how whenever the timer is increased, it gives the opponent more time to think and for certain characters to have a better chance at stalling a match especially if they have stronger zoning vs the other character.

So yes, time would effect match ups in this situation, but at the same time there is no need to add more time to a Brawl match.
Why 8 minutes? Like I said before, its not preventing anything.

I can go more depth, but having it said so many times... it just feels like I'm always repeating myself but whatever.

I'll just keep it at this:

If you can't understand that much, then like I said before there is only so much I explain without having to dumb down everything I say so everyone can understand.

It's funny how I complain yet I use Snake



Overall, the rule for this tournament is 7 mins, keep it at that for now.

 

[The MC Clusky]

And add Guilty Gear singles.

 

[Daimonster]

Count me in attendance.

 

[Kal]

Maybe explaining it 100 more times would help.
Ummm, nope, done that.

in general, this time discussion has been done before in other topics.
Saying how adding more time prevents camping when really it does not. And I explain situations how whenever the timer is increased, it gives the opponent more time to think and for certain characters to have a better chance at stalling a match especially if they have stronger zoning vs the other character.

So yes, time would effect match ups in this situation, but at the same time there is no need to add more time to a Brawl match.
Why 8 minutes? Like I said before, its not preventing anything.

I can go more depth, but having it said so many times... it just feels like I'm always repeating myself but whatever.

I'll just keep it at this:


It's funny how I complain yet I use Snake



Overall, the rule for this tournament is 7 mins, keep it at that for now.

Pozer, you still haven't explained anything. All you've done is said "an additional minute adds advantages because it does." You've listed those supposed advantages, yet failed to give any justification. Think whatever you want; the reality is that your points are moot until you can come up with some justification. If you've made posts justifying your point, and feel that they are good enough to overcome my actual argument above, then at least provide links to them.

Further, you can't counter-act what I said with more theory. What I said is practically set in stone. You need empirical data suggesting that players tend to camp more with more time. Realistically, that won't happen, since data suggests the exact opposite.

 

[PozerWolf]

*snip*

Yeah, ok.





Hey, if possible, is there anyway to delay the tournament from a further time?
Not too sure if it can happen, but wondering if the tournament can somehow be delayed at least 3 hours.

Trying to have it set to where people can get out of work on time and join in (but I'm not too sure how out of towners would feel about this).

 

[Daimonster]

In this game, you eliminate your opponent by building his % to a point in which certain moves "K.O" them off the map. Without the aid of health bars, determining the most effective way to eliminate your opponent becomes quite clear. By playing in a keepaway manner, you choose the most simple and easiest playstyle to rack up % in order to eliminate your opponent. Thus, eliminating several of the most entertaining sequences any good competitive game has to offer. These being mindgames, early/mid/late game scenarios and adjusting to your opponent. I feel the need to explore these concepts in brawl because some people don't get them; but I'll leave the spoon feeding to others.

In regards to titles in the fighting genre, Pozerwolf and I understand brawl in comparison to other fighting games. The same fighting concepts exist in every fighter, but brawl especially unique with the creation of the shield and dodge system. These systematics are simply newer options that transmute to parry and pushblocking in other games. In a game which there are health bars, one can believe that a subconscious elimination of time will in fact change and/or eliminate the end game concept. (Referring to other fighters) By patiently advancing on my opponent an entire match, i can eventually force my opponent into a corner which forces him to no longer play keepaway. Instead, he is forced to play defensively in reaction to the additional options I have placing him in the corner (spacing, corner game, wake up limits etc). In brawl, however, my opponent can only endure % racking attacks that do not automatically place him in "the corner aka ledge". Thus, by adding additional time to an already long rigorous match, keepaway tactics can and will prevail with the time increment increase.

Your welcome Pozerwolf

 

[Kal]

Daimonster, stop comparing Brawl to other fighters. There may be similarities, but analogies often fail in that you're attempting to compare very different games.

If you're going to explain how extending the time limit encourages camping, then you need to explain it in the context of Brawl, and not in the context of other fighters. It would also be appreciated if you would address my post from earlier, in which I explain why reduced time encourages camping, and increased time discourages it.

 

[bluezaft]

Man, everything in this game encourages camping. I went to a Brawl smashfest, played 3 matches total, and got projectile camped all 3 times. In friendlies! It was ridiculous. Camping is going to occur regardless of time limit--it's, like, fun for Brawl players. I think it's time we considered pokeballs.

In this game, you eliminate your opponent by building his % to a point in which certain moves "K.O" them off the map.

ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Daimonster]

Daimonster, stop comparing Brawl to other fighters. There may be similarities, but analogies often fail in that you're attempting to compare very different games.

Are you telling me that you can't compare soccer to football? Both sports win by a team scoring points due to position and performing great plays. Take a look at the olympics; wouldn't you want brawl (or video games in general) to be considered just as other sports have been? There is another attempt at an analogy, you against them?

 

[Kal]

Are you telling me that you can't compare soccer to football? Both sports win by a team scoring points due to position and performing great plays.

I'm not savvy on sports, but let's be realistic here, there's obviously some analogy between the two games that is false. What you're doing is diverting the point. There is a clear and well-defined logical fallacy called "false analogy" where you try to relate two different things with an analogy. While it's quite fine to compare soccer and football, it's stupid to say that some aspect that is true to football is just as true to soccer simply because they are similar.

For example, the optimal team in Football would be composed of people able to throw accurately, whereas the optimal team in Soccer would be composed of people able to kick a ball accurately.

Take a look at the olympics; wouldn't you want brawl (or video games in general) to be considered just as other sports have been? There is another attempt at an analogy, you against them?

Here, you're not even arguing the point. You're trying to imply some sort of guilt on my part for feeling that most fighters aren't easily comparable to smash (or at least not comparable in the way you've made). I don't feel guilty for it, and whether or not I want Brawl to be considered a sport (in fact, I wouldn't; Brawl is competitive ****) isn't relevant. The fact remains that you're comparing two very different things, and you need to address the problem directly. Analogies should be used to explain things, but not to derive conclusions.

 

[PozerWolf]

And of course Brawl is different from Guilty Gear, but in the end all fighting games share the same principles.

Ok wow, theres no need for this argument to go on (thanks for the help Daimonster, but in the end I kind of wanted the debate to just overall stop).

However, no need to act so big headed about this, Kal.


Hey, Pop Quiz: I'm new to the Smash Bros games.
In fact, other than the N64 version, this is the first smash I've decided to take seriously.

Statement of Knowledge: I don't play Brawl much at all. It's actually kind of rare that I actually do play Brawl (and it shows). However, using my knowledge from other fighting games I play, I'm using those tactics that I'm using in Brawl.

So with that said.

Question: Why is it that in every tournament I'm able to place top 5 (there has been like 2 tournaments I have not placed top 5. Hell, I won a few.)?

Is it 'cause I use Snake? Well, what of the other Snake players?

Answer:

And of course Brawl is different from Guilty Gear, but in the end all fighting games share the same principles.

So in the end, yes you can compare this game to another fighter. It's 100% possible, and its ******** to say its not.

Kal, if you fail to understand what exactly we are trying to compare then obviously you don't have the knowledge to think up or imply onto this debate.

We're all reasonable here, but if you don't wish to explain your reasoning, then it is best that you don't make a statement at all about what is best for the community.

In the end, know of us know what we are talking about!



The End

No there will be no part 2, it was canceled and won't be worked on due to a budget cut.





---------------------



** Now, about the tournament **
Still wondering if its possible to delay the tournament a little later and if anyone disagrees on this.

 

[Kal]

Ok wow, theres no need for this argument to go on (thanks for the help Daimonster, but in the end I kind of wanted the debate to just overall stop).

However, no need to act so big headed about this, Kal.

I'm the one acting big headed? Aren't you the one acting like your knowledge of other fighters translates directly to a DIFFERENT GAME. I could just as easily say "I know more about Melee, to which Brawl is a direct sequel. So you should trust me." Notice that I don't, and instead use reasoning to justify my points? Maybe I'm an *** for arguing so much, but what I've done today does NOT make me big headed.

Hey, Pop Quiz: I'm new to the Smash Bros games.
In fact, other than the N64 version, this is the first smash I've decided to take seriously.

In all your attempts to satire or parody things, you've failed miserably, either because you can't spell or use proper punctuation, or because you're plain and simply unable to articulate things intelligently. You make ridiculous attempts at wit:

Maybe explaining it 100 more times would help.
Ummm, nope, done that.

yet they all fail miserably. Pozer, YOU are the one who is big headed, which is evidenced by the quotes below bragging about your tournament placings.

Where in your "pop quiz" did you quiz anyone? Is that supposed to be irony; a play on your inability to form intelligent questions? There Pozer goes again, making those clever syntactical plays!

Statement of Knowledge: I don't play Brawl much at all. It's actually kind of rare that I actually do play Brawl. However, using my knowledge from other fighting games I play, I'm using those tactics that I'm using in Brawl.

So with that said.

Question: Why is it that in every tournament I'm able to place top 5 (there has been like 2 tournaments I have not placed top 5. Hell, I won a few.)?

Is it 'cause I use Snake? Well, what of the other Snake players?

Answer:

So in the end, yes you can compare this game to another fighter. It's 100% possible, and its ******** to say its not.

Comparing them and making conclusions based on similarities are different things. I can compare ANYTHING. What you're doing is generalizing to all fighting games, when you have yet to show specifically how your opinions hold towards Brawl. It's not a well established theorem of fighting games that they are all similar enough so that you can make a statement about one game and say it applies to another one.

Kal, if you fail to understand what exactly we are trying to compare then obviously you don't have the knowledge to think up or imply onto this debate.

Pozer, if you fail to understand what exactly you're doing when you make erroneous logical fallacies, then you obviously don't the knowledge to contribute to this debate.

In the end, know of us know what we are talking about!

I'm assuming this is supposed to be "none of us know what we are talking about." In which case, I'd have to disagree, and say that you're the only one of us who doesn't know what he's talking about.

The End

No there will be no part 2, it was canceled and won't be worked on due to a budget cut.

There you are being clever again. Witty prose.

 

[PozerWolf]

Don't worry, Kal.
Sometimes its just hard to accept the truth.
I like how I asked only one question, and you can't even answer that. It's like your arguing with yourself using my posts as examples. It looks funny, but whatever.
Just stop already.


Hey, did you guys know there is a Wendy's by the Venue

 

[Daimonster]

It's all street fighter

 

[Kal]

Pozer, you still haven't addressed any of my points. It's more like you trying to save face by insulting me with a picture you snagged off of 4chan.

 

[The MC Clusky]

I can't even tell what the hell the arguement is supposed to be about. The timer is staying at 7, end of story.

Camping. A legitimate tactic. Proven by competitive gaming worldwide.

Brawl's timer is just like ANY other fighting game. The person with the lead will try to avoid any fighting if time is on his side.

On a side note....

Since Brawl is a game with more movement options that say Guilty Gear (i.e. the amount of space in the battlefield) it's easier to stay away from your opponent. There isn't even chip damage in Brawl, unless you count a shield being broken (lolz, another thing I don't like about Brawl. NO LIGHT SHIELD.) When you can do everything out of shield it's easy to wait for the opponent to attack then punish. Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

Less time=more camping. That's actually pretty true. It would risky to continue fighting if a fight will run out of time soon.

More time=whatever the hell you want. Some players will camp no matter what the situation.

Like I said, I don't even get what the hell the argument is about.

 

[Fogo]

Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

Oh i beg to differ lol

you get grabbed by me and it's an instant 40%


also, this argument is useless.

 

[Bwett]

Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

I hope you are being sarcastic lol.

EDIT: Darn it Fogo, you beat me to it

 

[Fogo]

I'm a ninja ^_^

come over and play brawl tomorrow, i want you to see me 3 stock ice hehe.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

I lol'd.

You've clearly never played anyone from Dallas, and you clearly weren't watching the dude that won your tournament.

I'm going back to my lurking now. </hylianstyletrolling>

Edit - Ha! Didn't even see the other guys posts. Go Dallas!

 

[Daimonster]

The best comboes are grab comboes. Options? Grab comboes into grab baby YEAH! /end austin powers impersonation

 

[Fogo]

lol why is dallas so grab happy?

 

[bluezaft]

Or, for short, "grappy." As in, "Dallas is really grappy."

 

[Sethlon]

Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

Yeah, I agree. Shielding is your best option, just go ahead and do that.
*chain grabs you all the way across battlefield*

 

[AustinRC]

I did at first use King Mosquito's rules for his past tournaments however I havent had the time to change them to my liking quite yet I HAVE however finally finished my rule set "I think" so go back to the first page and check it out. I have no reason to cut the timer to only 7 minutes. The timer will be 8 minutes. btw I'm not banning any infinites CCG/ Ice climbers infinite grabs none of it is banned. have fun! :D

I can't even tell what the hell the arguement is supposed to be about. The timer is staying at 7, end of story.

Camping. A legitimate tactic. Proven by competitive gaming worldwide.

Brawl's timer is just like ANY other fighting game. The person with the lead will try to avoid any fighting if time is on his side.

On a side note....

Since Brawl is a game with more movement options that say Guilty Gear (i.e. the amount of space in the battlefield) it's easier to stay away from your opponent. There isn't even chip damage in Brawl, unless you count a shield being broken (lolz, another thing I don't like about Brawl. NO LIGHT SHIELD.) When you can do everything out of shield it's easy to wait for the opponent to attack then punish. Grabs are pretty worthless in Brawl, so it's not like being grabbed is a big deal anyways.

Less time=more camping. That's actually pretty true. It would risky to continue fighting if a fight will run out of time soon.

More time=whatever the hell you want. Some players will camp no matter what the situation.

Like I said, I don't even get what the hell the argument is about.