Aurora, Colorado: 12 Dead in Shooting Rampage at Midnight Showing of The Dark Knight

[#HBC | J]

I'd picture that would be more terrifying imo with the thing I saw on FB because it would just remind them of the night and everything. That's at least how I think it would be and it's not because of Batman but what is associated with it.

 

[Oneupsalesman]

If this just got the right to bear arms taken away then guns would be sold through a black market to criminals and we wouldn't be able to defend ourselves.

Anyway, yeah, I think it's..nice..of Christian Bale to do that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it really freaked them out.

 

[Luigitoilet]

That's at least how I think it would be and it's not because of Batman but what is associated with it.

Um, yeah, that's exactly what I said.

 

[Master Xanthan]

killing people is wrong so i hope the government kills this guy

I don't see anything wrong with the death penalty, since the shooter is a danger to people in society, it wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure he can never do it again. Then again I guess they could just put the guy in prison for life as well. Still, the shooter is complete scum and I don't think anyone would be angry about the shooter getting what he deserves.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I don't see anything wrong with the death penalty, since the shooter is a danger to people in society, it wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure he can never do it again. Then again I guess they could just put the guy in prison for life as well. Still, the shooter is complete scum and I don't think anyone would be angry about the shooter getting what he deserves.

killing people is wrong.

edit:

it's also expensive.

 

[Oneupsalesman]

Out of curiosity, what about in the case of self-defense, in your opinion?

 

[Luigitoilet]

in honest to god, life or death self defense, it's admissable, sure...but that is about it. and it's got to be SERIOUSLY grave and SERIOUSLY imminent danger. not exactly sure what that has to do with capital punishment or this topic though.

 

[theeboredone]

LT, did you mean that the use of the DP injection is expensive?

 

[Master Xanthan]

in honest to god, life or death self defense, it's admissable, sure...but that is about it. and it's got to be SERIOUSLY grave and SERIOUSLY imminent danger. not exactly sure what that has to do with capital punishment or this topic though.

Because you said "killing is wrong" you didn't say capital punishment specifically. So killing someone out of self defense is technically killing (which I don't have a problem with self defense, if someone is trying to kill you, you gotta do what it takes to survive).

 

[Luigitoilet]

Because you said "killing is wrong" you didn't say capital punishment specifically. So killing someone out of self defense is technically killing (which I don't have a problem with self defense, if someone is trying to kill you, you gotta do what it takes to survive).

yeah but man I was specifically quoting you who was talking about capital punishment... You were saying that the death penalty is an acceptable thing in a case like this, and my post was aimed to imply that it isn't because killing people is wrong. That's why I quoted you.

I mean I guess it's a valid question to ask me if I believe in self-defense killing to clarify where I stand, but I thought it was completely obvious from the context of the conversation that I was specifically talking about the death penalty.

@theboredone: yeah that's what I was referring to but not exclusively or even particularly poison injection, but the death penalty period.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

 

[Master Xanthan]

yeah but man I was specifically quoting you who was talking about capital punishment... You were saying that the death penalty is an acceptable thing in a case like this, and my post was aimed to imply that it isn't because killing people is wrong.

I mean I guess it's a valid question to ask me if I believe in self-defense killing, but it was completely obvious from the context of the conversation that I was talking about the death penalty.

@theboredone: yeah that's what I was referring to but not exclusively or even particularly poison injection, but the death penalty period.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

Yeah that is true that you directly quoted me so I guess asking about self defense didn't really have much to do with that. But anyway, is it really fair to the victims and their families to allow the killer to live? If I was one of the victims I'd be insulted if the killer was allowed to still live after the horrible things he's done.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Yeah that is true that you directly quoted me so I guess asking about self defense didn't really have much to do with that. But anyway, is it really fair to the victims and their families to allow the killer to live? If I was one of the victims I'd be insulted if the killer was allowed to still live after the horrible things he's done.

"Fair" is that the man will never get out of prison or interact with another person outside of prison guards for the rest of his life. Killing even the most sadistic and reprehensible criminal is an extremely archaic and savage appeal to bloodthirst. What other purpose does it serve? I don't feel like a government should be satiating such base and regressive concept of vengeance.Why exactly must this man be killed for things to be "right" or "fair"? His victims remain dead regardless and government regulated societal revenge re-enforces the idea that murder is okay under any circumstance and further perpetuates the culture of violence that is partly the cause of this very massacre.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

It's seems more efficient, rather than barbaric, as far as I can see

 

[Luigitoilet]

It's seems more efficient, rather than barbaric, as far as I can see

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

Los Angeles Times Study Finds California Spends $250 Million per Execution (2005)

Key Points:

The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.)

With 11 executions spread over 27 years, on a per execution basis, California and federal taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each execution.

It costs approximately $90,000 more a year to house an inmate on death row, than in the general prison population or $57.5 million annually.

The Attorney General devotes about 15% of his budget, or $11 million annually to death penalty cases.

The California Supreme Court spends $11.8 million on appointed counsel for death row inmates.

The Office of the State Public Defender and the Habeas Corpus Resource Center spend a total of $22.3 million on defense for indigent defendants facing death.

The federal court system spends approximately $12 million on defending death row inmates in federal court.

No figures were given for the amount spent by the offices of County District Attorneys on the prosecution of capital cases, however these expenses are presumed to be in the tens of millions of dollars each year.

......

n "The Hidden Death Tax" the ACLU-NC reveals for the first time some of the hidden costs of California's death penalty, based on records of actual trial expenses and state budgets.

The report reveals that:

California taxpayers pay at least $117 million each year post-trial seeking execution of the people currently on death row;

Executing all of the people currently on death row, or waiting for them to die there of other causes, will cost California an estimated $4 billion more than if they had been sentenced to die in prison of disease, injury, or old age;

California death penalty trials have cost as much as $10.9 million.

....

Capital punishment in California, as in every other state, is more expensive than a life imprisonment sentence without the opportunity of parole. These costs are not the result of frivolous appeals but rather the result of Constitutionally mandated safeguards that can be summarized as follows:

Juries must be given clear guidelines on sentencing, which result in explicit provisions for what constitutes aggravating and mitigating circumstances.

Defendants must have a dual trial--one to establish guilt or innocence and if guilty a second trial to determine whether or not they would get the death penalty.

Defendants sentenced to death are granted oversight protection in an automatic appeal to the state supreme court.

Constitutional Safeguards

Since there are few defendants who will plead guilty to a capital charge, virtually every death penalty trial becomes a jury trial with all of the following elements:

a more extensive jury selection procedure

a four fold increase in the number of motions filed

a longer, dual trial process

more investigators and expert testimony

more lawyers specializing in death penalty litigation

automatic, mandatory appeals

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

Well, that's on the government.

They purposely made it less efficient to save lives, but without those prevention techniques it would be more efficient

 

[Luigitoilet]

Well, that's on the government.

wow what an insightful and substantial post

+1

edit: oh, i get what you're saying now. I disagree though. I ask why you are insisting that the appeal for killing someone be "efficient"?

after all we execute wrongly convicted and likely innocent people all the time as it is even with all those nasty little loopholes that get in the way of our killboners I imagine that number will only increase with the more "efficient" we make our slaughterhouses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Life in prison seems redundant, since they are more or less dead to society anyway.

It's not an enjoyable experience for them either, with the loss of their freedom.

The only way I see it could be good is if they are actually innocent and found as such at a later date

 

[Luigitoilet]

I don't know what else to say except that your apathy and handwaving nature about this subject is disturbing me.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If someone kills 14 people and sends 50 something to a hospital, no I have no empathy for them. I see nothing wrong with that

Edit: The law is suppose to remove emotion from judgement

Edit Edit: Maybe I'm not heartless, maybe I do just want barbaric revenge. I don't know

 

[Teran]

This guy is a nueroscience student...

I'd like to know what the significance of this is, if you don't mind. :/

As a natural sciences (Biochemistry) major myself, I'd like to see what sort of perceptions I'm dealing with.

Edit: I actually disagree with the death penalty on the sole grounds that it gives people an inherent feeling of superiority. People's obsession with judging and subjugation is really kinda irksome to me.

 

[Master Xanthan]

"Fair" is that the man will never get out of prison or interact with another person outside of prison guards for the rest of his life. Killing even the most sadistic and reprehensible criminal is an extremely archaic and savage appeal to bloodthirst. What other purpose does it serve? I don't feel like a government should be satiating such base and regressive concept of vengeance.Why exactly must this man be killed for things to be "right" or "fair"? His victims remain dead regardless and government regulated societal revenge re-enforces the idea that murder is okay under any circumstance and further perpetuates the culture of violence that is partly the cause of this very massacre.

Actually I wasn't just talking about the dead victims, I was also referring to the wounded victims.

 

[Master Xanthan]

If someone kills 14 people and sends 50 something to a hospital, no I have no empathy for them. I see nothing wrong with that

Edit: The law is suppose to remove emotion from judgement

Edit Edit: Maybe I'm not heartless, maybe I do just want barbaric revenge. I don't know

I feel the same way as you. I have no empathy for murderers. If someone murders someone else, then I don't think the murderer deserves to keep their own life. But that's just my opinion.

edit: Crap, double post, sorry.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'd like to know what the significance of this is, if you don't mind. :/

As a natural sciences (Biochemistry) major myself, I'd like to see what sort of perceptions I'm dealing with.

Edit: I actually disagree with the death penalty on the sole grounds that it gives people an inherent feeling of superiority. People's obsession with judging and subjugation is really kinda irksome to me.

Well, specifically about him...

1) He was probably smart. But I never looked much into what Neuroscience was about
2) He was probably a psychopath. Since, psychopaths like going into fields where they experiment on humans and means of manipulating -- general ways they can use and view humans as objects.

Not saying all neuroscientists are psychopaths, but if one goes around killing people he probably was and that is a reason he chose the field

 

[Luigitoilet]

Actually I wasn't just talking about the dead victims, I was also referring to the wounded victims.

Okay? How does this change or challenge anything I said?

anyways, here's an insightful Charlie Booker clip that is very relevant to our situation here even though it's from across the pond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

to be honest the whole aftermath of this thing is making more sick than the shooting itself.

from the conspiracy theories about TSA and cries about this being a staged setup to take guns away from civilians, to scapegoating of the movie itself, to the victim blaming, to the constant melodramatic "news" coverage, to the ridiculous and manipulative facebook posts who use the tragedy as a platform for the poster's tangentially related political or religious beliefs, to the people crying for more blood...it's just too much...I have negative faith in human society.

oh here's another eerily prescient piece. it's from the Onion but it cuts very deep and truly

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sadly-nation-knows-exactly-how-colorado-shootings,28857/

 

[Teran]

Well, specifically about him...

1) He was probably smart. But I never looked much into what Neuroscience was about
2) He was probably a psychopath. Since, psychopaths like going into fields where they experiment on humans and means of manipulating -- general ways they can use and view humans as objects.

Not saying all neuroscientists are psychopaths, but if one goes around killing people he probably was and that is a reason he chose the field

Okay well bolded is your initial mistake, making assumptions while being ignorant.

Neuroscience is the study of the nervous system, it entails stuff like electrophysiology and basically details how the nervous system works on a chemical and electrical level.

Now let's see how that factored into his modus operandi.

He waltzed into a crowded theatre, used tear gas (not a nerve agent), and shot maniacally. Yes, I'm sure neuroscience had everything to do with it. You ever considered that some people just pursue educational paths because they happen to be inherently talented in them?

In science you do not experiment on people in unethical manners. In fact it is a large part of why science has been held back (and rightfully so). There are massive restrictions on human testing. You do obviously learn a whole lot about human physiology while in a natural sciences field, but that does not come from some callous need to objectify people and it certainly does not have that effect. Science is just knowledge, knowledge of the world and knowledge of oneself, perhaps, and yes it can be used for bad things, but you know I'd imagine if he wanted to learn to manipulate people physiologically or psychologically he'd have taken a medical, biochemical, or psychological degree.

The fact that you attribute his choice of education to whatever psychotic tendencies he's had is insulting to the thousands of scientists who enter these fields and dedicate their lives to bettering the lives of people like you. I'd have imagined that the stigmatising of science would have ended a long time ago, but it's nice to know that even in this day and age, people will make outrageous leaps of logic to tie psychopathic behaviour to these fields.

A large factor in what can drive people into the state of mind to kill is the emotional numbing associated with social rejection, I mean that's just one thing there are so many other things, but the point is people from all walks of life can be monsters, and to pigeonhole people who pursue natural sciences as inherently psychopathic is not only ludicrous, it is as I said, highly insulting to a large portion of people who dedicate their lives to unravelling the mysteries of life for everyone else's benefit. Maybe you should think about that next time you're about to say something so absurd.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I knew it was about the nervous system. I just don't know if that is a difficult field/ etc.

Being a psychopath doesn't mean someone is a killer, it's a mindset, how their mind perceives things. Humans in general. Psychotic is more like having less empathy than outright murdering everyone.

Medical fields do require you to have less empathy with the people you are working with

Psychopaths only turn into killers based on environmental situations like a bad upbringing, with a good upbringing they can turn into good, hardworking people respected in their field.

I never said he went into a field to learn to kill people, but his mental state probably gave way to interests that allowed him to enjoy scientific fields

 

[Teran]

I knew it was about the nervous system. I just don't know if that is a difficult field/ etc.

Being a psychopath doesn't mean someone is a killer, it's a mindset, how their mind perceives things. Humans in general. Psychotic is more like having less empathy than outright murdering everyone.

Medical fields do require you to have less empathy with the people you are working with

Psychopaths only turn into killers based on environmental situations like a bad upbringing, with a good upbringing they can turn into good, hardworking people respected in their field.

It is a difficult field.

What you state about medical fields is a common and damaging misconception. There's a reason things like bedside manner are considered important, because having empathy and understanding what humans want and how they react is a part of effective medical practice, as well as general scientific research. You know, like looking to convert skin cells to stem cells instead of farming embryos because of the obvious connotations.

Natural sciences that concern humans absolutely require empathy and understanding because hey you know what the subject is? People. Even if you're delving into a specific part of human physiology that can seem detached from the whole system, to get to that level you have to know the basic system, and remembering that this system is a cog in human machine means you have to be empathetic towards people to be most effective in researching and displaying research.

Also, psychopaths don't only turn into killers because of a bad upbringing, they can turn into killers because they may find it amusing and exciting. There are too many factors in what makes a person do things like this, **** some people are just INHERENTLY like that.

So yeah, I think you need to stop thinking of natural sciences as some callous, detached, Josef Mengele type world, because it is anything but. I know this first hand, as a biochemist, ethics and broader understanding and consideration for people is just as large a part of what we do as swirling beakers and manipulating biological systems.

Edit:

I never said he went into a field to learn to kill people, but his mental state probably gave way to interests that allowed him to enjoy scientific fields

Assuming he even enjoyed it, and even if he did, it could just be because the understanding of complex systems was enjoyable.

It's as tenuous a link as "oh people play violent video games because they enjoy murdering people, video games make killers".

Really?

 

[Luigitoilet]

this is a sickening plot from Obama to ban neuroscience.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm not saying that is what the medical field is, I'm looking bad at this one, specific individual and saying HE was probably a psychopath.

I'm not saying people that are interested in those fields are psychopaths, I'm taking an analytical look into this one specific individual

I think you misunderstand what a psychopath is and think it's some violent killer

 

[Teran]

I think you misunderstand what a psychopath is and think it's some violent killer

No, I really don't.

I think you're misunderstanding science by deeming it inherently more accommodating to psychopaths.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

No, I really don't.

I think you're misunderstanding science by deeming it inherently more accommodating to psychopaths.

No, I'm not saying science is more accommodating to psychopaths, I'm saying that Psychopaths have interests in scientific fields. It's not the same thing.

Psychological disorders give people a way of thinking that can draw them into specific areas. Doesn't mean they go into those areas, and definitely doesn't mean everyone in those areas is a psychopath

 

[Teran]

No, I'm not saying science is more accommodating to psychopaths, I'm saying that Psychopaths have interests in scientific fields. It's not the same thing.

Psychological disorders give people a way of thinking that can draw them into specific areas. Doesn't mean they go into those areas, and definitely doesn't mean everyone in those areas is a psychopath

Psychopaths have interests in a whole host of fields, not just science, I can't believe you're still not getting this.

Psychopaths aren't just tank bred clones pumped out of an assembly line, they're individual people with all the characteristics associated with individuality.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Psychopaths have interests in a whole host of fields, not just science, I can't believe you're still not getting this.

Psychopaths aren't just tank bred clones pumped out of an assembly line, they're individual people with all the characteristics associated with individuality.

In psychology they can recommended career paths based on psychological disorders, since psychological disorders have similar ways their brains process information and their reaction to different situations, people. The individual can have their own personal interests and things they excel at, and can react differently based on their environmental situation as well as their upbringing.

 

[Teran]

In psychology they can recommended career paths based on psychological disorders, since psychological disorders have similar ways their brains process information and their reaction to different situations, people. The individual can have their own personal interests and things they excel at, and can react differently based on their environmental situation as well as their upbringing.

Which ultimately nullifies what the psychologists recommend. My highest recommendation from a psychometric assessment years ago was accountancy, and there were a whole bunch of other careers based around my strongest skills and inherent individualistic behaviour, but the very idea of spending my life crunching numbers is possibly what I imagine hell to be like.

So yeah, let's just keep the pigeonholing at bay.

 

[deepseadiva]

I grew up in this theatre. This is where I saw Pokemon: The First Movie, Harry Potter and the Sorcerors Stone, and the Harry Potter finale.

Actually, some of the finale - the last midnight premier I attended there had the movie cutout half way. Angriest nerd crowd ever.

I almost lost my best friend in this. Fortunately he was in the higher rows and made it out in time.

My family argued between going to this premier and going to Ice Age.

Horrifying. This is too dark. This was too close.

 

[Pluvia]

That's crazy Meno. Glad you and your friend is alright.

 

[Jasou]

Definitely agree there. It's fortunate that you didn't end up seeing it at that time.

 

[theeboredone]

Some more information on this case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-m...s-holmes-court/story?id=16834757#.UA3XfXAioa0

 

[Master Xanthan]

Some more information on this case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-m...s-holmes-court/story?id=16834757#.UA3XfXAioa0

Page won't load for some reason. Well it technically loads but none of the text shows up.

 

[Airgemini]

This was truly some scary ****. I didn't even realize that I had went to this theater last year around this time, crazy. Deepest sympathies for everyone that was affected by it.

No idea what I'd do in that kind of situation. Kind of sad when you have to worry/think about going or sending your kids to the movies these days in light of this happening. /: