attempt at matchup thread

[Winston]

Personally, Falcon vs Luigi is ++, at least from Smoke's description and that people seemed to agree with it. But +/++ seems fine.

I know nothing about those matchups. I don't play them, just picked up Falcon. I'd rather not theorysmash.

Well the thing is most matchups must be decided based well-founded theory. >.> I mean just saying "in my experience this happens" isn't really valid or credible.

It is true though that theory is developed when you get extensive experience playing competent players in the matchup though.

As far as Falcon vs Luigi goes, I'm usually not comfortable with ++ descriptions because someone will complain about it. It could very well be ++, there would certainly be a lot more ++ if it was just me making the chart as opposed to this group effort.

Also I'm still slightly skeptical about a higher short hop and lack of fireballs warranting a two grade difference (since you all say mario falcon is even). I know his approach/mobility is significantly worse, but still.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Falcon vs Pikachu: =, This is one of the odder things I have seen but this matchup actually seems to be equal, Falcon combos can overwhelm pikachu and it just comes down to who can overwhelm who faster.

The difference for falcon vs any other character he has problems with is that:
1. Pikachu is light, but not so light that falcon has problems comboing. It is actually quite easy to f-air and up air combo pikachu.
2. No good projectile
3. Range: Unlike Kirby, pikachu doesn't have a move (like the up tilt of kirby) which just overwhelms falcon.

This matchup is actually easier on HC since Pikachu can't gimp as easy.

Falcon vs Samus: + for Falcon. Samus can't combo Falcon well, Falcon's throws combo samus way too well, and falcon has larger range

Falcon vs Yoshi: + for Falcon. I have said this, Matt says this, even SheerMadness says this. Any character with a good throw or good priority can kill Yoshi well. Yoshi has problems DJC'ing out of falcon's combos with special note to up air.

 

[Superstar]

Falcon vs Luigi: Falcon has problem comboing luigi with Up air due to his floatiness. F-air works well for falcon but Luigi has a way better recovery. Back air helps vs Luigi also. Luigi doesn't have the priority or the speed to keep up with Falcon. Probably Equal or maybe better for Falcon. I haven't played enough matches vs Luigi's however.

I disagree. I feel this matchup is on Falcon's side by more than a little. I'm doing homework however, expect a more through response soon.

I'll start by saying that Falcon doesn't have trouble up-airing Luigi, especially if you fast-fall up-air inbetween them (most people forget this)

Luigi's recovery also isn't way better than Falcon's in the sense that unlike Mario's way better one, its a single hit that doesn't even knock away. It can also trade hits with Falcon's backair (hang-on ledge, press away from the ledge and very quickly back-air while Luigi up-bs or even Luigi's down-b tornado in some cases). The hits will trade and Luigi will fly away to his death. Luigi also doesn't have Mario-like fireballs to help his recovery. I have even done angled forward smashes at the very end of Luigi/Mario's Up-b and they trade hits as well, Luigi with a much greater chance of success for Falcon. If you force them to Up-B onto the stage, you can simply duck on the edge, take the hit and down-tilt. You have so many easy options to edgeguard Luigi with Falcon (and basically the entire cast) The lack of Mario fireballs let Falcon simply jump on the ledge whenever he wants to and when Luigi up-bs on to the stage, you ledge hop and down-air to whatever you want.

Indeed, Luigi's priority and awkward movement makes it hard for him to approach and mess Falcon up. He has the combos but not really the approachability to get them started unless the other Falcon makes some silly mistakes. I can only see things like retardedly offensive Falcon rushing in and getting Luigi up-smashed.

Luigi really is just an inferior Mario with only 3 move that are offensively better, down-tilt, up-b (debatable) and down-b.

If you think Link vs Falcon has it bad for Link, Luigi has it way worse.
This is a problem matchup for Luigi, not equal by any means.

It was me agreeing completely with this.

 

[Winston]

Falcon vs Pikachu: =, This is one of the odder things I have seen but this matchup actually seems to be equal, Falcon combos can overwhelm pikachu and it just comes down to who can overwhelm who faster.

The difference for falcon vs any other character he has problems with is that:
1. Pikachu is light, but not so light that falcon has problems comboing. It is actually quite easy to f-air and up air combo pikachu.
2. No good projectile
3. Range: Unlike Kirby, pikachu doesn't have a move (like the up tilt of kirby) which just overwhelms falcon.

This matchup is actually easier on HC since Pikachu can't gimp as easy.

Falcon vs Samus: + for Falcon. Samus can't combo Falcon well, Falcon's throws combo samus way too well, and falcon has larger range

Falcon vs Yoshi: + for Falcon. I have said this, Matt says this, even SheerMadness says this. Any character with a good throw or good priority can kill Yoshi well. Yoshi has problems DJC'ing out of falcon's combos with special note to up air.

I have to disagree with a lot of this.

Falcon vs Pikachu: ...

1). About combos: Falcon doesn't have problems comboing any character except for Jigglypuff, basically. Falcon can do his thing quite well vs Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Ness, and yes, Pikachu. The fact that he can combo Pikachu isn't a point in his favor in this matchup. As always, it's about those first hits.

2). Pikachu may not have a single move to rely on, but so what? Pikachu has basically any attack > throw gimp on small stages. You mention HC as being better for falcon, well it's not really. Falcon doesn't really have a KO move on this stage unless you're fortunate enough to be right near the edge already, whereas Pikachu has throw gimp if you're on the left, throw to box combo if you're on the right. If you're in the middle, Pikachu can often throw to the left area runoff uair and continue or throw to the right area and start the box combo. And of course, any aerial leads into throw.

The reason I feel it's + in Pikachu's favor is simply the margin of error, again. Small errors for falcon are both more fatal and more easy to make in this matchup. One alternate definition of matchup advantage is "which side has to make more mistakes?"

Falcon vs Yoshi:

Like I said, I don't know too much about this matchup aside from what the two characters are able to do to each other in terms of combos and edgeguarding (usually the less important aspects of a matchup). I know that it seems good for Falcon to me. A year ago Sheer was adamant about Yoshi/Falcon as equal, if he's since changed his mind then I continue to defer to his judgment.

 

[Wenbobular]

Take this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6430282
And imagine if Pikachu there instead.

I'd give Falcon vs Pika a + for Pikachu. Throw gimps

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu has the advantage on everyone else

Pika doesn't need a good projectile, if you use it though, it is somewhat useful in edgeguarding Falcon even though you don't need it.

Pikachu's Up-tilt shuts down almost, if not all of Falcon's aerials. Just 4-5 of them stringed together will get Falcon stuck in tumble animation where you can proceed to double up-air in a single short hop Falcon's *** off the stage and finishing it off with (insert aerial here). If you up-tilt Falcon's shield when he is not in your direction, there is almost no way he can escape Pika's grab due to the decent shield stun it causes.

If Falcon makes a mistake and gets hit by a single up-tilt, it is often good enough to spell death for that Falcon's stock unless Falcon is directly in the middle of Hyrule.

Pikachu can easily combo Falcon to death in the pit, located next to the house of pain. If Pika and Falcon are on the left side or Dreamland, you can either do the up-tilts, up-smashs (use 2 before double up-airing), back-throw/forward-throw --> forward-smashes or whatever gimp

Not to mention that when Pika's moves clash with Falcon's, Pika often has a better recovery time. If Pika's up-tilt collides with Falcon's up smash, Pika has enough time to basically have a free move

Falcon kills Pikachu decently, but Pikachu does it better and lives better too. Pikachu also has a semi-escape with Up-B while Falcon can only flop around as Pikachu smacks hims up

+ for Pika

Samus vs Falcon

easily one of Samus's worst matchups. Samus is often forced to play an overly defensive, counter-attack style, annoying game that Falcon can still overcome with his superior comboability, manuerability.

Samus really relies on just getting Falcon off the stage early on or racking up damage steadily and doing the usual down-air to back-air.

So for Samus to win, you have to largely outplay your opponent, capitalize on mistakes for him being too aggressive. It's much easier for Falcon to outplay Samus than vice versa unless you have better game sense than the Falcon. Since we are assuming that both the Samus and Falcon are both fairly good but equally skilled, you can pretty much expect Falcon to largely win

i'd say ++ for Falcon

 

[Surri-Sama]

Samus vs Falcon = + for falcon

Falcon has to play a little slower because Samus defensive play can be annoying and hard to deal with

 

[Winston]

so we're pretty much agreed on Falcon vs Samus (in falcon's favor significantly) as well as Falcon vs Pikachu (in Pikachu's favor).

So that leaves Falcon vs Yoshi. Currently I'm undecided between + and =; I guess if nobody else says anything I'd put it at a + for Falcon.

So basically, let's figure out Yoshi vs Falcon, get some last thoughts in on the other two if there are any, and as always if nobody says anything then we're moving on.

 

[NixxxoN]

the best yoshi players like malva or sheermadness should answer this. I think Falcon has a slight edge, faster and easier combos.

 

[Surri-Sama]

the best yoshi players like malva or sheermadness should answer this. I think Falcon has a slight edge, faster and easier combos.

LOL sheer is bias dun ask him.

Acording to him only pikachu is + vs Yoshi...and only by a little bit


Yoshi vs Falcon is =/= imho maybe a little towards falcons side, due to speed and agility

 

[Superstar]

Didn't Malva once say his Yoshi sucks?

Although, whatever that man touches becomes dynamite, so...

Keep going, I'm fine with whatever so long as it wasn't hasty.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I suppose we need an essay from CBJ in order to make the ruling official!

You know if we wanted to make a “fair” match-up thread…instead of stating what we think about the chars, we should have set-up categories and then evaluated each match-up based on that rubric…

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Sheermadness even said himself that yoshi has a disadvantage,

I think the exact same thing

its a - for yoshi. Falcon just combos Yoshi way too well

 

[SheerMadness]

Falcon might have the advantage but it would be like 55-45.

Yoshi edgeguards Falcon a lot better than Falcon does him. While Falcon's combos are easier Yoshi's are just as good if not better. Falcon just has a big speed advantage. It's pritty hard to approach a defensive Falcon.

I think its a pritty close match but if you guys wanna give Falcon a slight advantage I'd say thats probably fair. I'm really inconsistent in that matchup too sometimes I'll just get randomly ***** so I dunno how much credibility my opinion has.

 

[Winston]

I suppose we need an essay from CBJ in order to make the ruling official!

You know if we wanted to make a “fair” match-up thread…instead of stating what we think about the chars, we should have set-up categories and then evaluated each match-up based on that rubric…

That wouldn't work too well because it'd be too hard to come up with a good rubric that really reflects how matchups play out.

Using a system that's more objective isn't any better if it's a bad system.

And lol Yoshi combos Falcon just as well as Falcon combos Yoshi, that's not the reason Falcon has a +

it seems like I have the go ahead for Falcon having an advantage now so 3 down, 3 up

Entered:

Falcon vs Pikachu: -
Falcon vs Samus: ++
Falcon vs Yoshi: +

we're done with Falcon, on to Fox

Next 3:

Fox vs Jigglypuff
Fox vs Kirby
Fox vs Link

my thoughts:

Fox destroys Jigglypuff, I think jointz already posted about this; Fox has some sort of advantage on kirby I think but I'm not sure if it's that large, Fox destroys Link.

discuss away

 

[Surri-Sama]

That wouldn't work too well because it'd be too hard to come up with a good rubric that really reflects how matchups play out.

Using a system that's more objective isn't any better if it's a bad system.

And lol Yoshi combos Falcon just as well as Falcon combos Yoshi, that's not the reason Falcon has a +

it seems like I have the go ahead for Falcon having an advantage now so 3 down, 3 up

Entered:

Falcon vs Pikachu: -
Falcon vs Samus: ++
Falcon vs Yoshi: +

we're done with Falcon, on to Fox

Next 3:

Fox vs Jigglypuff
Fox vs Kirby
Fox vs Link

my thoughts:

Fox destroys Jigglypuff, I think jointz already posted about this; Fox has some sort of advantage on kirby I think but I'm not sure if it's that large, Fox destroys Link.

discuss away

Would it be to hard to make a good system...or is it that you simply want to do it this way?

I think its the latter

 

[Winston]

Would it be to hard to make a good system...or is it that you simply want to do it this way?

I think its the latter

Lol that I want to do it this way?

I mean if you asked most people how they would go about making a matchup chart, don't you think they'd just discuss the matchups with knowledgeable people and agree on values?

And yes I truly do believe that it would be too hard to make a system that accurately describes how matches of smash play out.

 

[Deleted member]

Got an essay to write

Fox vs Jiggly: + for Fox

Fox vs Kirby: + for Kirby

Fox vs Link: + or ++ for Fox

Feel free to argue any points

edit: Sorry Sheer you da man


Also, Yoshi can double-jump out of Falcon's up-air combos 80% of the time, saving him from the air hump.


And I only write essays when I am stuck in a dumb lecture hall that is completely useless where writing an essay about a matchup is actually more productive lol

 

[MattNF]

Fox vs Jiggly: + for Falcon at least

Falcon is so good he wins matches he's not even playing in.

 

[SheerMadness]

lol @ captain blowjob all on my case recently

That ness **** was years ago and im pritty **** sure I never said Ness was the wost char and I sure hell don't care who Isai's worst char is.

This is a matchup thread in which people post their OPINIONS on the matchup so strop trying to be a cool guy and sound all condescending when you don't agree with someone. I'm not bashing anyone elses opinions I'm just stating mine perhaps you should do the same.

 

[Deleted member]

You're right

I dunno why I put something you typed years ago I guess I was in an emo mood at that point in time

 

[Winston]

Got an essay to write

Fox vs Jiggly: + for Fox

Fox vs Kirby: + for Kirby

Fox vs Link: + or ++ for Fox

Feel free to argue any points

edit: Sorry Sheer you da man


Also, Yoshi can double-jump out of Falcon's up-air combos 80% of the time, saving him from the air hump.

Okay so I have time now to write something

Fox vs Jiggs is definitely significantly in Fox's favor, it's gotta be one of Jiggs' worst matchups along with Pikachu, so I think that warrants a ++.

Fox vs Kirby: like Fox vs Jiggs but Kirby has some tools to avoid the ****. Lasers speed and combos are still pretty good though, so I agree with + for fox.

Fox vs Link: I'm no Link expert but Link is pretty badly off on this one, I don't really have anything to say about this

Yoshi can double-jump out of most of Falcon's combos? Since when? I'm pretty sure Falcon can true combo yoshi consistently if he does it carefully enough.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think you mis-read smoke's post. He said + for kirby, and you agree with + for fox...

I agree with + for fox between fox and kirby matchup. If fox can avoid up-tilt, then he's got the advantage. Kirby is a defensive character and usually waits for other characters to approach him. Simply put: If fox uses his lazers, he forces kirby to approach him (unless kirby's willing to just sit there and take lazers). This kills two birds with one stone (defensive kirby, and up-tilt), since a non-defensive kirby will not have the opportunity to up-tilt (plus, one lazer turns kirby around). As for kirby's approaches, an approach from above can be beaten by fox's up-air, an approach from the side can be beaten by lazers or some other attack? (don't know fox) and, well, that basically covers all kirby's approaches. As for fox's approaches, he can use lazers to immobilize kirby enough so that he can get the one hit necessary to start a combo. This can be risky, as any free movement for kirby can result in an uptilt. + for fox.

As for puff, well... I'd say this is puff's worst match-up along with Pikachu. Fox out-ranges puff in every way, and his lazers force puff to approach. All puff needs is one good hit to start a combo (possibly leading to a death), but against a good fox, it is not likely that puff will get that one hit. ++ for fox.

Yeah... Fox is definitely my worst matchup. Puff is my keyboard main... major fox advantage. Kirby is my controller main... either fox advantage or I just plain suck with kirby

As for the fox vs link matchup...

I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

lol that was too funny

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I would say fox vs kirby is..even I guess

kirby has that homosexual combo that works on everyone to bair and bair/dair usually outprioritizes or trades with fox's moves. Kirby can edgeguard fox pretty easily haha.

Fox needs to play smart in this matchup or else he basically dies. Laser spacing and uptilts to fair/nair combos and dair if the person doesn't DI well. Fox has some decent edgeguarding on kirby(dash attack lol) like downsmash,bair etc. Kirby dies at lowish percents.

 

[Seala]

I have to disagree with most people here, I would definitly not say that fox vs jigglypuff is a ++ for fox, he might have an advantage but I find that fox is one of the easiest to combo out of the whole cast, and he's easy as pie to edgeguard. While playing the fox side of the battle, sure jiggs dies at extremly low percentage from usmash or uair but he's also harder then most characters to combo due to his floatyness. As for fox vs kirby I'd say that's a + for kirby for sure, fox just dies more or less automatically as soon as he gets somewhere off the stage.

 

[Winston]

It's true I did misread jointz' post because I'm used to the format where in X vs Y, the + or - is for X. Also because I had thought that Fox > Kirby a little bit.

I know Kirby has the super Kirby combo on Fox into edgeguard and that works super well, and uptilt stops a lot of Fox's approaches, but between speed, aerial maneuverability, and lasers it just seems like Fox can dictate the pace of the match. I generally associate matchup advantage with the character that seems to me to be able to "control" the match.
It is true that Fox has to play super carefully, I know, but overall I feel that Fox is at least even to advantaged vs Kirby. Feel free to correct any of this because these are just my thoughts.

@Seala: don't place so much emphasis on edgeguarding and "ease of comboing". The only characters that present serious difficulty in edgeguarding for basically anyone are Pikachu and sometimes Mario. Fox and Jiggs can both edgeguard each other. It might be a little easier for Jiggs to gimp, but Fox has a good gimp game here too and the situations shouldn't present themselves too often. Really, how does Jiggs plan to consistently hit Fox?

As far as comboing, Jiggs may be hard for some to combo, but not Fox.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fox vs Kirby =/=

Fox vs Jiggly + for fox

 

[infernovia]

Fox vs. Kirby is one of the gayest matches I had the misfortune of fighting.

Fox cannot dictate the match simply because kirby's got the aerials.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fox vs. Kirby is one of the gayest matches I had the misfortune of fighting.

Fox cannot dictate the match simply because kirby's got the aerials.

Thats because you're lettign your selve get overwhelmed...try spacing better, because fox should be able to tear through kirby just as fast as kirby can tear through him

 

[Daedatheus]

Thats because you're lettign your selve get overwhelmed...try spacing better, because fox should be able to tear through kirby just as fast as kirby can tear through him

Indeed. With Fox vs. Kirby, as Fox, you have to distance yourself carefully from the Kirby, play with a lotta patience, and when there is an opening (which Kirby doesn't give you often) abuse Fox's speed and maneuverability to start comboing the crap outta Kirby, and at 60% or more upsmash the puffy little punk.

Make sure to unnecessarily pivot jab combo Kirby a lot first though, teach the Kirby players a lesson. (I find Kirby so annoying and boring to play against )

 

[Winston]

Alright whatever Fox vs Kirby even

whenever boomfan says something it's pretty gg anyway

Fox vs Jiggs and Fox vs Link: + or ++?

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Fox vs. Jiggs is a +

I don't think it's Jiggly's worst matchup because although Jiggy easily gets destroyed by Uair and Usmash, Jiggly can still get a combo or two through, like easy uair combos. Also, Jiggly's backthrow can set up an easy edgeguard. Plus, Fox doesn't have that many combos against jiggly... They mostly consist of Dair chains...which can be DIed

Jiggly is way worse against like Luigi and Samus who seriously don't get comboed.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Alright whatever Fox vs Kirby even

whenever boomfan says something it's pretty gg anyway

Fox vs Jiggs and Fox vs Link: + or ++?

Remember Malva told us to Use Luigi's Bair as an approach...and to do it without turning around.

 

[LegendOfZelda]

Yoshi > All

That's all I know

 

[Deleted member]

Fox vs. Jiggs is a +

I don't think it's Jiggly's worst matchup because although Jiggy easily gets destroyed by Uair and Usmash, Jiggly can still get a combo or two through, like easy uair combos. Also, Jiggly's backthrow can set up an easy edgeguard. Plus, Fox doesn't have that many combos against jiggly... They mostly consist of Dair chains...which can be DIed

Jiggly is way worse against like Luigi and Samus who seriously don't get comboed.

If Fox gets grabbed constantly by Jiggly there is some problem with the Fox in his usage of superior spacing and containment. Jiggly often has to camp on top of Hyrule on the platforms to force a Fox approach where lasers don't easily put Jiggly into killing percentage. If they don't they are bound to eat many lasers for lunch


Jiggly gets man handled by Fox's combos especially if you use backwards B-air so the weak part of the move doesn't knock them very far away

Also most drills on Jiggly the fox can often just turn around and jab although I personally don't like using drills


Maybe not Jiggly's worst but pretty bad

In between +/++

Jiggly's approach against Luigi and Samus is way easier than approaching Fox. Consequently, smacking the opponent around is easier which leads to relatively easier edgeguards against these 2. I disagree that these two are impossible to combo with Jiggly. You just have to not use up-throw to start a combo. You can use the Hyrule pit of death or use other moves to get them into the air before you start an up-air chain. Up-air does not send them far away enough that they can't get further comboed. If you have problem comboing you are probably an uncreative robot who thinks up-throw is the only way to start a combo

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

you are probably an uncreative robot who thinks up-throw is the only way to start a combo

*sarcasm*

errrrrm uh, we all know dair-grab is the best way and only way to start a combo with jiggly.

That and the UNESCAPABLE jigglymaster combo (maybe Im a lion) utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt rest.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Smoke2jointz always wins

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

*sarcasm*

errrrrm uh, we all know dair-grab is the best way and only way to start a combo with jiggly.

That and the UNESCAPABLE jigglymaster combo (maybe Im a lion) utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt utilt rest.

LOL LOL LOL

he named off like 7 "upthrow" combos lol

 

[Winston]

Okay so Fox mauls Jiggs and Link, is even enough with kirby

entering:

Fox vs Jiggs: ++
Fox vs Kirby: =
Fox vs Link: ++

we just passed 1/3 completion, let's keep it up guys

Next up:

Fox vs Luigi
Fox vs Mario
Fox vs Ness

This is bound to be controversial again, but I'm almost positive that Fox has a significant edge over all 3 of these characters. + vs Mario, and at least a + vs Ness and Luigi.

Mario, Luigi, and Ness are pretty much the ideal weight for fox combos, and he doesn't have a whole lot of difficulty edgeguarding them. Of course, lasers are a huge asset to Fox's approach/spacing game, not to mention that he's got the maneuverability advantage on both the ground and the air.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fireblaster is gona blast you!

Fox is way to easy to get off the edge and edgegaurd by all three...but Ness is far easier to combo with Mario and Luigi ...imo

Fox vs Mario is + for mario
Fox vs Luigi is =/= (Luigi is slow)
Fox vs ness is + for fox