attempt at matchup thread

[Superstar]

Not only needs more skill but also its easier to DI out of Fox combos than Falcon's.

Doesn't apply? meh -_- still easy to do a falcon generic combo on Fox and set him ready to die

Didn't jointz already answer that? You're just repeating an argument already mentioned.

Fox and Falcon can both do evil crap to each other. As for Jiggz, I'd rather wait for that one to roll around. We should just make DK v Yoshi: ?, and move on.

 

[NixxxoN]

Didn't jointz already answer that? You're just repeating an argument already mentioned.

Fox and Falcon can both do evil crap to each other. As for Jiggz, I'd rather wait for that one to roll around. We should just make DK v Yoshi: ?, and move on.

He said Fox's combos are hard to DI. I disagree, at least not as hard as falcon's imo. u can easily di out of Fox utilt, dsmash, and even the uair, if it does the "weak uair".
As for lasers, I don't think its that hard to avoid them and camp against them. If you're on Hyrule its really easy, and in dreamland you can hit fox easily aswell.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

For the jigglypuff post, Jigglypuff sucks vs Floaties

worst matchups: Probably, Luigi, DK and Samus, followed by Mario
Luigi or DK being worst (--), Luigi is too hard to combo and Aerial KO's kill Jigglypuff Way too easily (Up B for Luigi), DK has more grab range than Jigglypuff and once grab and Jiggs is done
Samus can't be comboed well either and in my opinion, the only actual GOOD samus matchup besides maybe Ness and probably DK/Luigi
Mario has up smash also but less combos than Luigi vs Jigglypuff and he is easier to combo than Luigi


Anyway, lets get on to the next matchup, its been a few days

 

[Winston]

Ughh random Jiggs discussion x__x

that means the next 3 are overdue I guess

I'll record:

DK vs Samus: +
DK vs Yoshi: - (?)
Falcon vs Fox: =

THE NEXT THREE

Falcon vs Jiggs
Falcon vs Kirby
Falcon vs Link

these should be a lot easier as Falcon is a pretty common character

Falcon vs Jiggs: +

easily in Falcon's favor because both his range and speed are laughably better than Jiggs'. Yes I know Jiggs can do lots of stuff out of grab vs Falcon, including death combos and etc. Yeah big deal Jiggs can do that to most of the cast. Spaced bairs and uairs along with upsmash means Jiggs shouldn't be getting enough hits to swing it in his favor, though the hits he does get will make falcon pay dearly.

Falcon vs Kirby: =

Kirby probably has a small advantage but it's close enough to call even, I think. Falcon can combo Kirby fine and Kirby can gimp/**** falcon ez; Falcon has to play SUPER CAREFUL vs Kirby but it can be done. As far as the approach/spacing game goes I believe spaced bairs+dashdance+upsmash is about on par with the spaced bairs+uptilts.

Falcon vs Link: ++

No disrespect to Link but I feel like this is one of Link's three worst matchups (along with Fox and Pikachu). I don't have much Link experience so I'm not as sure about this one, but I don't see how it can possibly be in Link's favor. Edgeguarding goes both ways, Falcon can easily combo Link to high percents/death whereas Link can't combo Falcon till mid percents because of his weight. Falcon has the maneuverability to deal with projectiles and it helps that Link's control over the space immediately in front of him is somewhat weak.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Falcon vs Jiggly should be + for Jiggly

Jiggly is too hard to combo, and easy to combo with.

Spaced Attacks? is this really anything...both chars can space their attacks... (aka, not being stupid)

 

[Winston]

Spaced Attacks? is this really anything...both chars can space their attacks... (aka, not being stupid)

Because no characters in this game have advantages in approaching/landing hits over other characters, right?

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Ughh random Jiggs discussion x__x

Falcon vs Link: ++

No disrespect to Link but I feel like this is one of Link's three worst matchups (along with Fox and Pikachu). I don't have much Link experience so I'm not as sure about this one, but I don't see how it can possibly be in Link's favor. Edgeguarding goes both ways, Falcon can easily combo Link to high percents/death whereas Link can't combo Falcon till mid percents because of his weight. Falcon has the maneuverability to deal with projectiles and it helps that Link's control over the space immediately in front of him is somewhat weak.

Personally, Link vs Falcon is one of my favorite matchup and I've been doing not so bad 'till now. I'd say that this matchup is Falcon vs Link + not ++ Link can do quite good on falcon, but on the other hand falcon can easily 0-death link. Still if you're fast and able to use bombs and your boomerang quite fine, falcon will have a hard time approaching you and then is the time to use mind games to get a combo going on CF.

Plus, Link is very powerfull and falcon is not really fat, lol, so he can get killed pretty easily by link's main killing moves: (Dair, Fair, Dsmash, Fsmash or throw). Basicly to play with link against falcon you just need to know what you're doing and try to not get grabed or Usmash to much, which is possible, but hard, thus why I give it a + for falcon.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Because no characters in this game have advantages in approaching/landing hits over other characters, right?

thats exactly what i said

 

[SheerMadness]

I think Yoshi prolly has an advantage on DK. Yoshi can combo him really well and I think can abuse DK's recovery better than DK his. It's also really easy to break his shield.

It's a hard matchup to guage though since there really aren't many great DKs.

And Kirby has an advantage on Yoshi so u can change that if u want.

 

[Surri-Sama]

And Kirby has an advantage on Yoshi so u can change that if u want.

Permission granted!

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

personally I think falcon vs kirby is -

 

[Surri-Sama]

personally I think falcon vs kirby is -

for falcon, yes!

i mean falcon sucks vs Kirby...

Kirby has the same amount of combos, with a better approach and recovery and defensive strats....how hard is it to kinda linger with Fairs/Dairs, Utilt, and combo! (then gimp) (no MATTS! intended)


Dtilt > Falcons recovery

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Falcon vs Jiggs: + for Jigglypuff, As said, Jigglypuff has better combos vs Falcon and Jiggs escapes combos easily. Also, up throw, up smash, up throw up air up air rest for Jiggs over any falcon combo. This matchup is much more even though on DL with less room and the platforms hurt Jigglypuff combos and the stage is smaller so Falcon can kill easier.
Falcon vs Kirby: + for Kirby. Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt Up Tilt over anything that falcon has.
Falcon vs Link: I don't know at this point. I have won vs. good Link's but I lose vs others. This matchup is probably better for Falcon but that does not mean that its ++ like you say.

Falcon fails vs 1 of 2 things.
Projectiles: As in Fox's Lasers which make this matchup broken for Fox and Mario's Fireballs.
Characters that can escape falcon combos easily (Jigglypuff, partially Luigi, and the pink marshmallow Kirby)\



And before you ask, yes I am putting input for ALL matchups.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh...I think Jiggs vs Falcon is a - for Jiggs. What move gets around Falcon's Uair and Bair again?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Falcon vs Kirby: -

Kirby has an easy time comboing Falcon, and up-tilt has priority over most of Falcon's attacks. one up-tilt brings Falcon's damage high enough to knoch him off the stage, leading to an easy edgeguard. Falcon's combos don't work so well with Kirby, since he flies too far.

I don't believe the matchup is broken enough to give Falcon -- in this matchup.

Falcon vs Puff:

Puff has pretty easy combos on Falcon, but puff's problem is getting them started. Falcon's aerials have more range / priority over puff's (up air > down air, for example), making puff's air game pretty difficult. One big enough mistake by falcon, and he loses a stock, but overall, I think range is a major factor. I have difficulty against good Falcons when I play as puff (then again, haven't played this matchup with a good falcon in quite a while). I would say +, but everyone seems to agree on -

Falcon vs Link: Don't know.

 

[MattNF]

Falcon vs Kirby: - for reasons already mentioned.

Falcon vs Jiggly -

Jiggly can do easy combos, Falcon can but not as good because Jiggly is floaty.

Falcon vs Link -

Falcon wins because of, again, easy combos. Link does better against floaties than fastfallers.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Falcon vs Link -

Falcon wins because of, again, easy combos. Link does better against floaties than fastfallers.

Huh? You contradicted yourself. With your description, I'm guessing you meant Falcon vs Link +, since you say "Falcon wins".

 

[MattNF]

Huh? You contradicted yourself. With your description, I'm guessing you meant Falcon vs Link +, since you say "Falcon wins".

Yeah, my bad

 

[Superstar]

Characters that can escape falcon combos easily (Jigglypuff, partially Luigi, and the pink marshmallow Kirby)\

Kirby is easier to combo than Mario or about the same. Mario is comboed just fine. Of course...I should play more Kriby to know for sure.

Agreed with reasons for Kirby vs Falcon. Kirby's ***** Falcon with combos [utiltx500], and gimps his recovery easily, since from above is where Falcon's recovery is most vulnerable, and he moves a bit slow during his UpB. utilt shuts down aerial approaches, but I don't know how Falcon's usmash compares to Kirby's dair. Kirby is best played defensively, even better at it than Ness, and Falcon's style forces him to approach. I think Falcon combos Korby fine, though, and dashdance seems to help a bit with fakeouts. Playing theorysmash, and it seems obvious here. Just standard disadvantage.

Link has almost the exact same weight and falling speeds as Falcon [check AntD's frame data thread]. He is comboed JUST AS EASILY as Falcon, and he can't start combos as well as Falcon. Although Falcon can EASILY cancel out Mario's fireballs though, the same cannot be said for Link. Contrary to what *some* people said about mid percents, usmash combos Falcon at low percents fine, and if you somehow manage a landing uair or soft hit from nair, Link is golden. They both edgeguard each other perfectly fine, the only problem is that Falcon can set up for it a little bit more easily than Link. When it comes to comboing Link though, think of it as a Falcon ditto, cept it's a bit harder to approach, but he can't hit you as hard. Advantage Falcon, but not HUGE advantage.

Falcon vs Jiggs...which Falcon/Jiggs wants to fight my Jiggs/Falcon? I'd like to give the matchup a try, to test some claims about how each combos the other.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby is easier to combo than Mario or about the same. Mario is comboed just fine. Of course...I should play more Kriby to know for sure.

Agreed with reasons for Kirby vs Falcon. Kirby's ***** Falcon with combos [utiltx500], and gimps his recovery easily, since from above is where Falcon's recovery is most vulnerable, and he moves a bit slow during his UpB. utilt shuts down aerial approaches, but I don't know how Falcon's usmash compares to Kirby's dair. Kirby is best played defensively, even better at it than Ness, and Falcon's style forces him to approach. I think Falcon combos Korby fine, though, and dashdance seems to help a bit with fakeouts. Playing theorysmash, and it seems obvious here. Just standard disadvantage.

Link has almost the exact same weight and falling speeds as Falcon [check AntD's frame data thread]. He is comboed JUST AS EASILY as Falcon, and he can't start combos as well as Falcon. Although Falcon can EASILY cancel out Mario's fireballs though, the same cannot be said for Link. Contrary to what *some* people said about mid percents, usmash combos Falcon at low percents fine, and if you somehow manage a landing uair or soft hit from nair, Link is golden. They both edgeguard each other perfectly fine, the only problem is that Falcon can set up for it a little bit more easily than Link. When it comes to comboing Link though, think of it as a Falcon ditto, cept it's a bit harder to approach, but he can't hit you as hard. Advantage Falcon, but not HUGE advantage.

Falcon vs Jiggs...which Falcon/Jiggs wants to fight my Jiggs/Falcon? I'd like to give the matchup a try, to test some claims about how each combos the other.

I don't agree about the Fireballs. All it takes is a jab with any character..

Kirby has an advantage on Falcon due to having the best move in the game, Kirby's up-tilt which absolutely tears Falcon to pieces if he makes a non-intelligent attempt at attacking Kirby. There is a small gap between up-tilts that allow characters to run in and punish but nevertheless, Kirby's uptilt makes this matchup for Falcon hard against people that don't know what they are really doing. Falcon, on the otherhand, can also combo pretty decently against Kirby as well. All it takes is to run in and up smash to get things started and other stuff. Both characters in my opinion have rather crappy recoveries as well..

60 Kirby - 40 Falcon.



Now people are going to question me here, but I feel that the Falcon vs Link matchup is = or slightly ahead for Link. Link's projectiles when used effectively make Falcon's approach a nightmare. Link combos Falcon just as well as Falcon combos link and Link's projectiles are great for both offense or defense. All it takes for Link is a bomb throw to a butt poke (up-air) to get Falcon into tumble animation than you can simply combo Falcon and edgeguard him very easily. Once the butt-poking begins, Falcon's pretty much toast. Link pretty much has all the tools to punish Falcon and combo him to death from a slip or mistake. Falcon's moves generally come out slightly faster but Link has a lot more priority.

I'd even go to say that Link can semi-approach Falcon with the usage of his projectiles as well. Although really Link doesn't have to. He can simply play a defensive game using his projectiles.

Link pretty much can just use his projectiles to control the flow of the game against Falcon who has to spend most of his time just finding a hole in Link's projectiles and higher priority aerials

Even in Dreamland, Link's projectiles work great for setting up combos and stuff. A bomb throw on shield to shield smack by down-air, up-air, or f-air lends you a free grab which usually leads to an easy edgeguard or a bounce off wall to combo Falcon to more butt pokes.

Basically, I'm saying Link's defensive, counter-attack style game is better than Falcon's approach, especially on Hyrule. You may say that Link gets messed up by Falcon but I rarely, rarely see competent Links out there against the easy-to-use Falcon.

I don't see how its similar to a Falcon Ditto since half of Link's game is using his projectiles effectively

50-50 Link Falcon or 52-48 Link Falcon

 

[Deleted member]

He said Fox's combos are hard to DI. I disagree, at least not as hard as falcon's imo. u can easily di out of Fox utilt, dsmash, and even the uair, if it does the "weak uair".
As for lasers, I don't think its that hard to avoid them and camp against them. If you're on Hyrule its really easy, and in dreamland you can hit fox easily aswell.

I do a lot of things like to make sure Lasers hit or force Falcon to jump around to dodge them, shield or get hit. From right side of Hyrule (the House n pit), you can jump up to the middle of the stage while firing two lasers. Theres the common double laser off a short hop and I personally do a full jump triple laser sometimes as well.

Unless the opponent commits to full camping in Hyrule on one of the sides, he will get hit by some of Fox's lasers unless he is really lucky.

In Dreamland you can double laser onto platforms and on the 2 side platforms, I run off and turn around and laser once. If an idiot Falcon players tries the ******** infinite grab strategy or kamikaze up-smash he will eat some lasers and get comboed on.

As for Combos that are easy for Falcon to DI out of, it really depends on what the Fox does. If he does the n00b combo of down-air to up-tilt, yes that is easily DI out able but I don't really do that combo at all. Things such as up-tilt(s) to up-air, up-air, up-air, weak (b-air) to up-smash/n-air or smack off stage is really impossible to escape to safety from the next hit. You can DI out of Fox-s 2nd hit if the Fox hits u with the edge of the up-air but if you up-air "inside" of Falcon, he has like a 2% chance to escape with DI.

as for up-tilts, good Fox players can simply walk a little between up-tilts to compensate for a Falcon's DI, only silly Fox players simply stand there and up-tilt.

Not to mention that at low-mid percentage, a forward-air to get Falcon off the stage gets you a very easy shine-spike, then while still shining, turn around in the shine, and back air Falcon as he tries to get back.

I still think Fox has an advantage on Falcon

 

[Deleted member]

I do a lot of things like to make sure Lasers hit or force Falcon to jump around to dodge them, shield or get hit. From right side of Hyrule (the House n pit), you can jump up to the middle of the stage while firing two lasers. Theres the common double laser off a short hop and I personally do a full jump triple laser sometimes as well.

Unless the opponent commits to full camping in Hyrule on one of the sides, he will get hit by some of Fox's lasers unless he is really lucky.

In Dreamland you can double laser onto platforms and on the 2 side platforms, I run off and turn around and laser once. If an idiot Falcon players tries the ******** infinite grab strategy or kamikaze up-smash he will eat some lasers and get comboed on.

As for Combos that are easy for Falcon to DI out of, it really depends on what the Fox does. If he does the n00b combo of down-air to up-tilt, yes that is easily DI out able but I don't really do that combo at all. Things such as up-tilt(s) to up-air, up-air, up-air, weak (b-air) to up-smash/n-air or smack off stage is really impossible to escape to safety from the next hit. You can DI out of Fox-s 2nd hit if the Fox hits u with the edge of the up-air but if you up-air "inside" of Falcon, he has like a 2% chance to escape with DI.

as for up-tilts, good Fox players can simply walk a little between up-tilts to compensate for a Falcon's DI, only silly Fox players simply stand there and up-tilt in one spot. Once you up-tilt 4-5 times, you can replace it with up-airs and stuff.

Not to mention that at low-mid percentage, a forward-air to get Falcon off the stage gets you a very easy shine-spike, then while still shining, turn around in the shine, and back air Falcon as he tries to get back.

I still think Fox has an advantage on Falcon

Don't forget about DK's grab->wait + regrab-> DK punch ><

And Fox isn't that awesome against Jiggly. He can get comboed relatively easily, though it is true that he can easily usmash or uair KO. Still, his koing against Jiggly is no better than Luigi/Samus, but he gets comboed a lot more than those 2 without as many options to break the combo (up+b with both luigi/samus).

Of course... Luigi/Samus are just retardedly good against Jiggly.

Sirhc, grab combos aren't that good against kirby because he's too floaty (unless they're dumb and DI down :D). Kirby is not as good against Jiggly as commonly thought either because of easy rest combos and easy edgeguarding for jiggly against Kirby.

Fox is a nightmare matchup for Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's approach is largely limited by Fox's speed and lasers. Jigglypuff has to resort to a more defensive game or funky teleport attacks but dodging lasers is still really difficult. Jigglypuff also gets smacked around at low percentages and easily gets comboed to death by up-smash and up-airs. A reflector on the edge against Jiggly flings Jigglypuff off the stage that its really hard to get back if the Fox knows how to edgeguard correctly. Fox really assassinates Jigglypuff.

If you are getting grabbed by Jigglypuff, you are doing something wrong or getting duped like crazy. Jigglypuff does have a 0 to death grab combo on Fox but getting that grab is difficult on non-******** fox players.

Falcon vs Jigglypuff. I feel that this matchup is super close and is probably equal.

Jigglypuff has a grab to death on Falcon. Falcon has speed but Jigglypuff's n-air outprioritizes Falcon in aerial battles. Against really good Jigglypuffs, Falcon's approach is a little difficult. There's some things Falcon can do that land you the hits such as run in up-smash but then Jigglypuff flies too high. Also, Jigglypuff lives longer than Falcon. Sending Jigglypuff away far and high lets Jigglypuff get on pretty easy with rising pound and jumps. Jigglypuff then needs to get smacked really hard to die since a single hit makes Jigglypuff go away really far.

Falcon has speed, tech chase ability, and can trick Jigglypuff into getting hit and if combos at low percent can do zero to deaths. If Falcon fails to kill at high percentages killing Jiggly just gets a little bit harder

Falcon = Jigglypuff


edit: I don't know why its triple posting, I swear I put it all in one box

 

[Lawrencelot]

Falcon vs Jiggs: - for Falcon, maybe even --. Dair works too good on Falcon because he's so tall, and DIing doesn't help too much against a good Jiggs. Plus Falcon is heavy so the uptilts can be done executively, or forwardthrow plus rest. Any move of Jiggs that hits can lead to a 0-to-death. And the uair combos don't work as well against Jiggs.
Falcon vs Kirby: - for Falcon. Dair again, and uptilt. Same with Jiggs only there are other finishers. But uair combo's do work against Kirbies.
Falcon vs Link: no idea, probably + for Falcon, but not ++ because the ranged attacks can be a small pain.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Stuff

I agree with this, cept maybe Jiggly should have a slight advantage over Falcon..i mean regardless of how good Winston thinks Falcons approach is (which actually sucks btw) Jigglys is much the same

 

[Winston]

Okay I guess Falcon sucks then I was wrong

I guess I get to enjoy the feeling of playing a mid-tier character as opposed to a top tier

 

[Superstar]

High tier mayn. Just everyone has bad matchups. I will answer though.

I don't agree about the Fireballs. All it takes is a jab with any character..

They have to be standing though, and the jab needs to be fast to prevent a followup. Falcon is good at getting rid of fireballs without really going "out of his way". Link can do the same with bair [once we get to that matchup and people start saying LINK IS TOAST TO FIREBALLS]. Pikachu, lol, we know. Kirby can too, but he's slower at doing it. I just notice Falcon cancels them one of the most easily.

When I said this though:

Although Falcon can EASILY cancel out Mario's fireballs though, the same cannot be said for Link.

I meant that Falcon can't really cancel out Link's projectiles too easily like he could Mario's. I worded it bad. I'm not talking about fireball spam. ANYONE can beat that.

I agree with Link vs Falcon =. Personally, it's equal to slight advantage Falcon, but Link actually does...fine. By "similar" to a Falcon ditto, I mean when it comes to comboing. Link is comboed the same as Falcon, almost the same weights and all that stuff, check AntD's chart. Hell, I got into an argument about that with MattNF and he convinced me.

So Falcon vs Kirby is pretty much a consensus minus, so far.

 

[Winston]

Shrug, high tier/mid tier are pretty similar...

What I meant is that I usually assume that I play a broken character with no significantly disadvantageous matchups; I guess that's not true. This description fits the top tier characters in all the smash games, including Pikachu, Fox, Kirby in this one...

I'll defer to what you guys say (actually mostly to what jointz and boomfan say >.>),

Falcon vs Link + or =
Falcon vs Jiggs =
Falcon vs Kirby -

any closing thoughts on these?

 

[Superstar]

I'd rather test Falcon vs Jiggs, but I guess it's not happening.

You have everything saved up to this point?

 

[Winston]

I mean you can't really test matchups, I would usually be up for playing whoever online to learn more about matchups but I'm at college now and I only have a laptop so I can't play on KB >.>

Matchup experience is great but that's really just for your own understanding, you can't play some matches and expect people to believe your assessments more...

I have everything saved up to this point... what do you want me to do with it?

Also, this thread in reality has become "smoke2jointz tells people what's up about matchups feat. boomfan sometimes". Not that I'm complaining as it's much more useful this way. I hope jointz keeps it up as his posts are in general really insightful.

 

[Superstar]

My stuff didn't disagree with Jointz, mostly the same argument, just that I worded a particular sentence wrong, and my simile came across wrong.

Jointz is capable of going more indepth about it, but since it's fun, I might as well try going more into matchups [what I did a while back, I tried to do it even though I'm not as knowledgeable, if I'm wrong, it's still fun ] Matchup experience is mostly just "Can X combo Y, etc etc etc". Like, after Falcon vs Mario matches, I know those that convinced me Falcon can't combo Mario were smoking crack.

Just save it.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I agree that falcon vs jiggly is 50-50 or 55-45 for falcon

and wtf for falcon vs link, falcon absolutely owns link. Link usually has to techchase to get a good combo thing going for him, while falcon can just start with a grab or upsmash etc

 

[Superstar]

Projectiles mess with Falcon hard, as well as a usmash. Soft nair helps start stuff, and at higher percents utilt does well. Link can pressure Falcon fine till he gets a combo. Mostly a repeat, but it's not a ++ matchup. That pretty much implies that Link can't do anything. Falcon has an advantage, but not by that much, from equal to plus. Not plus/plusplus. >_<

Usmash starts best from a techchase, but getting Falcon to lie down/tech or just plain mess up isn't that hard when Link has projectiles, his ranged fair [which is disjointed], or his dair. Bair works decently. It's a bit difficult to grab/Usmash Link, when Link's projectiles are slowing Falcon's approach, and he outranges Falcon with fair/dair. It takes skillz, of course, to prevent it, but we're assuming a Link that knows what he's doing vs a Falcon that knows what it's doing.

Also, Falcon's recovery is a piece of cake for Link to edgeguard. Fsmash, UpB, Dair, maybe dsmash, sometimes fair. Boomerangs may set up for a better edgeguard. Falcon also edgeguards Link fine, but Link does a better job. Falcon sets it up easier though.

Falcon can combo Link as well as he can combo himself. That alone ends the summation of Falcon's combos on Link.

Might as well do a longer argument despite probably an error or two, just to avoid one sentence counters. These are more fun.

 

[MattNF]

Projectiles mess with Falcon hard, as well as a usmash. Soft nair helps start stuff, and at higher percents utilt does well. Link can pressure Falcon fine till he gets a combo. Mostly a repeat, but it's not a ++ matchup. That pretty much implies that Link can't do anything. Falcon has an advantage, but not by that much, from equal to plus. Not plus/plusplus. >_<

Usmash starts best from a techchase, but getting Falcon to lie down/tech or just plain mess up isn't that hard when Link has projectiles, his ranged fair [which is disjointed], or his dair. Bair works decently. It's a bit difficult to grab/Usmash Link, when Link's projectiles are slowing Falcon's approach, and he outranges Falcon with fair/dair. It takes skillz, of course, to prevent it, but we're assuming a Link that knows what he's doing vs a Falcon that knows what it's doing.

Also, Falcon's recovery is a piece of cake for Link to edgeguard. Fsmash, UpB, Dair, maybe dsmash, sometimes fair. Boomerangs may set up for a better edgeguard. Falcon also edgeguards Link fine, but Link does a better job. Falcon sets it up easier though.

Falcon can combo Link as well as he can combo himself. That alone ends the summation of Falcon's combos on Link.

Might as well do a longer argument despite probably an error or two, just to avoid one sentence counters. These are more fun.

Boomerang is easily canceled by Falcon, and bombs are easy to dodge. Usmash can be DIed out of. Falcon Usmash > Link Nair.

Link's Usmash isn't that great. Short range, easily DIed from, etc. Not to mention it's only really useful as a tech chase or **** tent combo. And if you miss, you're left vulnerable to a while... and against a Falcon, that's pretty much death.

Falcon also edgeguards Link fine, but Link does a better job.

wut.

Falcon can easily kill link with Dair or anything else. If Link gets grabbed (either back or forward throw) anywhere even CLOSE to the edge he's gone, assuming the falcon doesn't suck.

 

[Superstar]

Falcon can easily kill link with Dair or anything else. If Link gets grabbed (either back or forward throw) anywhere even CLOSE to the edge he's gone, assuming the falcon doesn't suck.

Does a better job as in Link edgeguards better once that position is up. Link has more tools. But Falcon sets it up easier [grab at the edge, like you mentioned]. Normally, the main thing Falcon has going for Link in edgeguarding is that many times, Falcon doesn't even need to edgeguard.

Also, if you try outprioritizing Falcon's usmash with Link's nair, you suck. Better to do a dair or space a fair then [I'm pretty sure they outrange].

Boomerang can be cancelled by Falcon, but when it's used properly, actually going to cancel it means bad things for you. They are less predictable than fireballs, and Link moves faster than Mario. You're better off dodging it, which is viable, but you still went out of your way, and the Link has limited your options.

The main use of Link's usmash is a launcher for a combo starter. But yes, it does require a tech chase. Link still sets that up relatively easy compared to some chars [general tech chasing].

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

all falcon has to do to edgeguard if he has to, is sit on the ledge and wait for link to land, then dair and do whatever

 

[NixxxoN]

all falcon has to do to edgeguard if he has to, is sit on the ledge and wait for link to land, then dair and do whatever

link can hit falcon + get the ledge with his up+b

 

[CbGreiga]

Ness would probably round out high tier maybe tied for third with falcon

 

[Surri-Sama]

link can hit falcon + get the ledge with his up+b

I wouldn't advise throwing yourself over the edge with link...if you miss you're doomed...why not Fsmash or Ftilt

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think Superboom knows the Falcon matchup more than all of us. I'm pretty sure he has played very good Link players, as well as every other character on the roster, so he knows what he's talking about. Then again, if we go by how well boom does against the characters, falcon would have an advantage over everyone

Link is easy to edgeguard as Falcon. And if Link does land on the stage, there's enough lag for falcon to hit him back off or throw him off, or whatever falcon wants. Hanging on the edge pretty much kills link... as long as the falcon's not dumb enough to get hit by an up-b from link's recovery...

In past matchup charts that I have seen, Falcon always had ++ against Link. I know we're re-discussing the matchups, but I'm pretty sure that Falcon counters Link, either with + or with ++.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I think Superboom knows the Falcon matchup more than all of us. I'm pretty sure he has played very good Link players, as well as every other character on the roster, so he knows what he's talking about. Then again, if we go by how well boom does against the characters, falcon would have an advantage over everyone

Link is easy to edgeguard as Falcon. And if Link does land on the stage, there's enough lag for falcon to hit him back off or throw him off, or whatever falcon wants. Hanging on the edge pretty much kills link... as long as the falcon's not dumb enough to get hit by an up-b from link's recovery...

In past matchup charts that I have seen, Falcon always had ++ against Link. I know we're re-discussing the matchups, but I'm pretty sure that Falcon counters Link, either with + or with ++.

Pros can make mistakes just as Scrubs can