attempt at matchup thread

[Superstar]

Oh yeah.

Dk vs Ness is ++ Cause Ness' recovery sucks.

*Grumbles at his bad GFX card and bad nets, otherwise he'd be able to play more people and get his Mario/Ness up to snuff. Wishes there was a less GPU intensive plugin that works on Vista.*

 

[Winston]

Haha, my combo ability is pretty bad actually >.> But that should say something about how falcon's comboing is fine on Mario.

As far as DI goes.. well I was playing keyboard... however Wenbo can Ledge DI (it's not teching) that kind of thing consistently also, and he can usually escape drills, though not as easily as cheater keyboard DI.

So yeah, dair uair isn't always reliable.

As far as Luigi vs DK goes, I just entered it as something because I don't think any sort of "testing" is gonna happen soon/be that helpful anyway. I'll put a ? next to it.

Lol @ DK vs Ness, there's gotta be more to the matchup than throw gimps, right?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

DK vs Mario: - or --, Mario Camping over DK, Fireballs and most projectiles over DK. also, even with DI, due to DK's size, even Mario's down air can combo. Id say -. Dreamland seems to be the same...if not slightly more even matchup for DK. 60-40 Mario(?)
DK vs Ness: DK has enough grab range to grab ness out of combos, also, dk is so heavy that it takes a while for DJC combos to work very well. also, DK can up b ness just in case ness gets overly offensive. + for DK for all of these reasons. Also, ness can't space well enough to escape the cargo trap (not quick enough and the DJC actually hurts here. 60-40 DK(?)
DK vs Pikachu: Probably better for Pikachu......DK has good kills vs Pikachu however. also, Pikachu can't camp as well with projectiles. The other big problem for DK is that Pikachu can up b to get out of the cargo trap and times where DK gets overly offensive. DL which is normally a really good Pikachu stage is probably better in this matchup for DK however. the back grab and combos kill Pikachu way too easily and Pikachu can't camp as much.
55-45: Even or slightly Pikachu (40-60)

And I agree with the amounts said before. just use the words used before.
30-70 and below: Hard Countered (--)
40-60 to 35-65: Soft Countered (-)
45-55 to 55-45: Even (=)
60-40 to 65-35: Soft Counter (+)
70-30 or more: Hard Counter (++)

 

[Surri-Sama]

Haha, my combo ability is pretty bad actually >.> But that should say something about how falcon's comboing is fine on Mario.

As far as DI goes.. well I was playing keyboard... however Wenbo can Ledge DI (it's not teching) that kind of thing consistently also, and he can usually escape drills, though not as easily as cheater keyboard DI.

So yeah, dair uair isn't always reliable.

As far as Luigi vs DK goes, I just entered it as something because I don't think any sort of "testing" is gonna happen soon/be that helpful anyway. I'll put a ? next to it.

Lol @ DK vs Ness, there's gotta be more to the matchup than throw gimps, right?

Well if this is going to be serious and not "omg ness sucks" ill give it a shot.

Ness is deffinitly faster then DK in every regard with DJCed attacks

Both have bad recovery

both have good throws

both have easy to setp-up spikes

DK cant combo Ness well, but NOT vise versa (Yes DK has sexy looking Uair chains, but only situational ones...Ness has Uair chains everywhere)

Ness dies easier then DK (depending, because its obvious that Ness dies at lower % from smash attacks, but gimps kill both at low %s)


Both have killer priority


Seems like Ness had a SLIGHT advantage over DK

60-40 for Ness

DK has enough grab range to grab ness out of combosl

This only happens if you're comboing nothing...

dk is so heavy that it takes a while for DJC combos to work very well

One word "Utilt"

 

[Superstar]

Agree with Surri.

Nothing more to add except that DJC combos taking a while to work is BS.

Even or slight advantage Ness. Maybe the approaches change, but I'd like to test the matchup myself. My Ness has fallen behind in skizzels though, so, I dunno.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

lol oops half my post isn't there

Basically I said Kirby has an easy time comboing DK since he's a big target. Tilts can bring DK to high percents with little effort. Plus once DK's off the stage (depends how far), he's dead. DK does have range on his side and can combo kirby to an extent, but not as easily as Kirby can to him. I'd give Kirby a large advantage here.

As for DK vs Luigi, I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

.

Don't know how I lost half my post... and don't know how I didn't even notice it...

 

[Winston]

@ blue yoshi:

lol okay that explains it, it was pretty funny though

@ korobeniki: I agree with most of what you said except the Pika vs DK part. I don't see Pika having any less than a 65-35 vs DK...

@ Surri & Superstar

yeah at first I thought Ness had the edge, but...

Surri, I have to disagree with you in that "ness is faster in every way with DJC attacks". He's definitely faster at ATTACKING, but his aerial mobility remains slow as always and his horizontal speed and range aren't that great. DK can at least keep up with ness in terms of maneuverability, and his grab and up b trump ness in terms of range.

As far as gimping goes, Ness definitely isnt going be landing nearly as many grabs as DK is. Ness has good combos but they aren't always going to finish unless you're near the edge or on a small stage or in the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5IvJsNZjvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp3MfoZFvc

watch those videos, not to see who wins, but just how the matchup can play out. I don't really see too many areas/situations where ness is naturally at an advantage.

It seems at least even to me.

 

[Surri-Sama]

@ blue yoshi:

lol okay that explains it, it was pretty funny though

@ korobeniki: I agree with most of what you said except the Pika vs DK part. I don't see Pika having any less than a 65-35 vs DK...

@ Surri & Superstar

yeah at first I thought Ness had the edge, but...

Surri, I have to disagree with you in that "ness is faster in every way with DJC attacks". He's definitely faster at ATTACKING, but his aerial mobility remains slow as always and his horizontal speed and range aren't that great. DK can at least keep up with ness in terms of maneuverability, and his grab and up b trump ness in terms of range.

As far as gimping goes, Ness definitely isnt going be landing nearly as many grabs as DK is. Ness has good combos but they aren't always going to finish unless you're near the edge or on a small stage or in the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5IvJsNZjvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zp3MfoZFvc

watch those videos, not to see who wins, but just how the matchup can play out. I don't really see too many areas/situations where ness is naturally at an advantage.

It seems at least even to me.

Ness is only slow if your full jumping all the time...stop doing that D:

and grabs, yes DKs is better, for range and power...but both serve the purpose of putting your foe off the edge very easy... dont use specific matches as view points, for how a char can play out, its meaningless...

Ness' combos will finish a billion more time then DK's will, plus being such a big char, he is very easy to Dair Tech chase

and the combos dont need to "finish" if by this you mean they will be dead...they will rack up lots of damage, then throw or gimp with Utilt

If you play Ness, and you run at DK with full jumps, you will lose...other wise you should have a slight advantage

For the sake of being fair though, i am willing to say it's even...DK can punish very easily..Dair DK punch = dah sux

 

[Superstar]

I see a whole bunch of situations where Ness *could be* at an advantage. Boom is just too good. But, I know you're not looking at the result. :D I know you're smarter than that.

But yeah, looks about even. And yeah, Ness isn't supposed to approach [Peek seemed to play defensive or semi-defensive to me]. His horizontal air speed with DJC is good, but only really for Bairs [fairs have crap range], so it doesn't lend itself to approach. One of Ness' biggest advantages is priority, so he does have range some of his moves, however, DK has a lot himself.

Also, bair sets up for gimping.

Be nice if Boom or Peek spoke. Bleh. DK is underrated too, I know I underrate him myself. Should learn him, once I get my nets back. ;_;

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Ness is good at platform techchasing with dair into grab or something. Ness can edgeguard dk pretty easily with downsmash or dair I guess, I try to get past his downsmash by hovering by the side so it hits the invinc frames of dk's upb.

DK can usually gimp ness very easily. Dk's upb spacing is way too good as well. A few hits into downB -> giant punch works good.

I would say dk has the advantage here

 

[Superstar]

Eh, Boom convinced meh. + or = [depends by how much, = is if it's close enough].

Cause he use DK and he gud w/ DK.

 

[PrepareYourself]

I'll create a matchup chart if you want me to. Send me a PM later or something. Have fun

 

[MattNF]

DK beats Ness
DK vs pika is even

 

[Winston]

Ness is good at platform techchasing with dair into grab or something. Ness can edgeguard dk pretty easily with downsmash or dair I guess, I try to get past his downsmash by hovering by the side so it hits the invinc frames of dk's upb.

DK can usually gimp ness very easily. Dk's upb spacing is way too good as well. A few hits into downB -> giant punch works good.

I would say dk has the advantage here

ohsnap

any responses surri?

DK beats Ness
DK vs pika is even

O.o DK vs Pika is even? Am I missing something here?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

DK beats Ness
DK vs pika is even

O.o DK vs Pika is even? Am I missing something here?

DK vs Pika is - at best in my opinion, unless there's something I don't know. Pika has an easy time comboing DK, since he's such a huge target. One hit usually leads to high percents. That along with disjointed hitboxes would lead me to believe Pika has the edge. Also, Pika has an easy time edgeguarding DK with Dair or Bair (or uair if you're below). Pika's recovery can help him get back on the stage in most cases. If the DK predicts pika's recovery properly, spike death or whatnot.

I don't know much about DK, so I'm saying what I know about pika and someone else can fill in the DK portion. I believe this matchup is in Pika's favour, how much I don't know. Maybe there's something I don't know that makes this matchup even. What's your reasoning for even?

 

[MattNF]

Pika has a hard time getting past DK's ranged attacks since they have more priority.

It might be a SLIGHT advantage for pika maybe, like 55-45. But DK does very well vs pika i've found

 

[Deleted member]

Pika has a hard time getting past DK's ranged attacks since they have more priority.

It might be a SLIGHT advantage for pika maybe, like 55-45. But DK does very well vs pika i've found

Pika has an almost infinite amount of combos on Donkey Kong. Many of them go from 0 to death easily also. I never knew Donkey Kong had ranged attacks but maybe you are not talking about projectiles. Only Donkey's Up-B really beats Pikachu in terms of priority, maybe Donkey's up-tilt also but almost all of his other moves trade hits or get owned by Pikachu's and such. Pikachu's edgeguard game on Donkey Kong is literally as simple as Forward Smash as he comes back or if he goes higher than the edge, up-air chain to other aerial. It's also difficult to gimp Pikachu with Donkey Kong's up-B unlike virtually the rest of the cast. Still possible, but way way harder. Up-B'ing pika off stage lets you set up easier hits on Pika as he comes back though (but not a gimp death, 95% of the time)

And so, Donkey Kong's gaying ability is largely diminished against Pikachu. I'm not sure where everybody's saying Donkey Kong has "killer" priority. Only a few of his moves have good priority such as Up-B and Up-B, unless your opponent is a total noob, isn't 100% reliable as a counter-move. A simple block leaves a window for you to get punished.

I'm a slight fanboy of Donkey Kong, but Pikachu's approach and defense is better than Donkey Kong's, especially in the defense part.

Pikachu can also get out of Donkey Kong's infinite chain grab by simply quick attacking out as soon as possible. In fact, Donkeys somewhat mediocre Combo ability (without grab-bounce off wall) is further made weaker by the fact that Pikachu can quick attack out of a lot of stuff that the entire cast can do, Donkey Kong included.

The matchup is more than 55-45 in Pikachu's favor. It's probably one of Donkey Kong's worst but is overcomeable. Also, a lot of people simply don't know how to combat the gayness of Donkey Kong, making this matchup seem less favorable for Pikachu.



DK vs Ness:

You'd be surprised but DK can grab Ness out of Double Jump cancelled aerials. Even while Ness's head is turning big from djc up-air, DK can just grab him.


Overall though, I'd say this is a very close matchup. At best or worst there is a tiny advantage for one of the characters.

 

[Winston]

^ man this guy is knowledgeable ^__^

so we have

DK vs Pikachu: - for DK, -- possibly
DK vs Mario: - probably
DK vs Ness: = probably

On a side note, I feel like "priority" is a pretty overused term. In any character/matchup discussion, SOMEONE is going to say "X character has really good priority". Someone will say this about almost every character. I mean every character can't have above average priority.

I mean, "range" is probably a more accurate term, as what determines which attack "outprioritizes" the other is usually just which hitbox is more disjointed/bigger. In some cases invincibility frames take effect, but by and large it's just range.

I guess "priority" is a cooler word and makes you sound smarter.

 

[Superstar]

Ness has crap range. His "priority" comes from invincibility frames methinks [I don' have AntD's info]. DK's UpB has a lot of priority cause of the invincibility, but other from that, it's all range.

Agree with end results.

Priority is mostly just an end result.

 

[Winston]

Ness has crap range. His "priority" comes from invincibility frames methinks [I don' have AntD's info]. DK's UpB has a lot of priority cause of the invincibility, but other from that, it's all range.

Agree with end results.

Priority is mostly just an end result.

Ness doesn't have invincibility frames on his aerials... his uair, utilt, and dair hitboxes are just extremely large and disjointed. They have extremely good range.

Ever see a Ness spike someone while they're still a body length away from the edge? Yeah. That's range.

 

[Superstar]

Disjointed stuff are considered "priority". Range is simply when someone "sticks out a leg". If I remember, Ness' uair has invincibility on his head during the move. I remember someone saying that, and I notice it's hard to hit Ness from above when he's uairing.

Ness' uair's range is just decent. It's got priority for another reason *wishes he can see the hitboxes*

Spike is just range.

EDIT: Priority is just when someone has more range than it appears and/or disjointed. Peach's aerials in melee have high priority.

 

[Deleted member]

Disjointed stuff are considered "priority". Range is simply when someone "sticks out a leg". If I remember, Ness' uair has invincibility on his head during the move. I remember someone saying that, and I notice it's hard to hit Ness from above when he's uairing.

Ness' uair's range is just decent. It's got priority for another reason *wishes he can see the hitboxes*

Spike is just range.

EDIT: Priority is just when someone has more range than it appears and/or disjointed. Peach's aerials in melee have high priority.

Ness's head doesn't have invincibility. It has super high priority but a Link f-air chops his head

 

[Surri-Sama]

the stupid has come back to this thread...buh byee ^^


Note: Boom said something, its right..unless Malva says he is not...duh?

 

[Superstar]

Why I still said maybe =. It's like if someone talked about programming, didn't know what the **** they were talking about, and I came in [or someone better]. Trying to argue with me is pointless.

Or if I tried to argue with a musician about music [not tastes, something else]. It'd be bleh.

Why does Ness' head have priority, then? Attack hitbox larger than defense hitbox?

 

[Winston]

Disjointed stuff are considered "priority". Range is simply when someone "sticks out a leg". If I remember, Ness' uair has invincibility on his head during the move. I remember someone saying that, and I notice it's hard to hit Ness from above when he's uairing.

Ness' uair's range is just decent. It's got priority for another reason *wishes he can see the hitboxes*

Spike is just range.

EDIT: Priority is just when someone has more range than it appears and/or disjointed. Peach's aerials in melee have high priority.

I don't get what your point is in this post... the edit part seems to be contradicting the main part of the post. I agree with the edit, it's what I'm saying.

Note: Boom said something, its right..unless Malva says he is not...duh?

Haha that is my inclination, but I thought people would object to DK vs Ness +. Besides the way Boom worded it made it sound close enough to warrant an =. I think = is fine.

Why does Ness' head have priority, then? Attack hitbox larger than defense hitbox?

Yeah that's pretty simple, right? The hitbox is massive and is usually bigger than the other attack that's coming at you, so you end up hitting them and stopping their hitbox before their hitbox reaches your head's hurtbox.

I guess range usually implies horizontal range >.> So I guess using the word priority is fine...

 

[Superstar]

It doesn't contradict, when you see that I don't know why Ness' uair had priority. The edit is a tl;dr.

But, there is no AR code to view the hitboxes. So, when we get to these arguments, it gets bleh. Ness' UpB has invincibility frames according to AntD, and DK's UpB, for other moves, how the heck would we know. [I read through his frame data thread].

Priority is an overused term though. Most of the time it's just range.

Oh, and in the previous post, I forgot to mention smoke pushed me to think it's =. He sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Skrlx]

Boom's DK > all your characters

his DK is good against all matchups

 

[Surri-Sama]

Boom's DK > all your characters

his DK is good against all matchups

It's posts like these why threads like these go no where...fast...and for 20+ pages...

 

[MattNF]

Pika has an almost infinite amount of combos on Donkey Kong. Many of them go from 0 to death easily also. I never knew Donkey Kong had ranged attacks but maybe you are not talking about projectiles. Only Donkey's Up-B really beats Pikachu in terms of priority, maybe Donkey's up-tilt also but almost all of his other moves trade hits or get owned by Pikachu's and such. Pikachu's edgeguard game on Donkey Kong is literally as simple as Forward Smash as he comes back or if he goes higher than the edge, up-air chain to other aerial. It's also difficult to gimp Pikachu with Donkey Kong's up-B unlike virtually the rest of the cast. Still possible, but way way harder. Up-B'ing pika off stage lets you set up easier hits on Pika as he comes back though (but not a gimp death, 95% of the time)

And so, Donkey Kong's gaying ability is largely diminished against Pikachu. I'm not sure where everybody's saying Donkey Kong has "killer" priority. Only a few of his moves have good priority such as Up-B and Up-B, unless your opponent is a total noob, isn't 100% reliable as a counter-move. A simple block leaves a window for you to get punished.

I'm a slight fanboy of Donkey Kong, but Pikachu's approach and defense is better than Donkey Kong's, especially in the defense part.

Pikachu can also get out of Donkey Kong's infinite chain grab by simply quick attacking out as soon as possible. In fact, Donkeys somewhat mediocre Combo ability (without grab-bounce off wall) is further made weaker by the fact that Pikachu can quick attack out of a lot of stuff that the entire cast can do, Donkey Kong included.

The matchup is more than 55-45 in Pikachu's favor. It's probably one of Donkey Kong's worst but is overcomeable. Also, a lot of people simply don't know how to combat the gayness of Donkey Kong, making this matchup seem less favorable for Pikachu.



DK vs Ness:

You'd be surprised but DK can grab Ness out of Double Jump cancelled aerials. Even while Ness's head is turning big from djc up-air, DK can just grab him.


Overall though, I'd say this is a very close matchup. At best or worst there is a tiny advantage for one of the characters.

You're probably right. But the reason I posted that is because personally I've found that I do much better with DK against pikachu compared to other characters, for some reason. It might be because my DK is good or the Pikas I fight suk (probably the latter since I never use DK, lol). I don't really have a specific reason as to why DK is better though...

And when I said ranged attacks I meant his large arms gave him a large range with his attacks (bair, uair, etc)

 

[Blue Yoshi]

We seem to be going nowhere with this matchup... I'd suggest putting something down (a question mark if necessary) and continue with the next matchups, and come back to this at the end.

Just a suggestion...

 

[Winston]

It's posts like these why threads like these go no where...fast...and for 20+ pages...

wow and your persistent pessimism is helping tons, too

We're working on it, seriously.

ALRIGHT so

DK vs Pikachu: --
DK vs Mario: -
Dk vs Ness: =

This seems fine, that's what I'm going with

Next 3:

DK vs Samus
DK vs Yoshi
Falcon vs Fox

my thoughts:

DK vs Samus: Man samus is a bad character. I would think DK has the advantage. +

DK vs Yoshi: seems similar enough to the ness matchup, his range and ability to setup gayness from throws still let him hold his own despite yoshi's combos and DASH ATTACK. = ?

Falcon vs Fox: close enough to be even, Falcon has an advantage on dreamland probably but overall, =.

 

[Superstar]

Yoshi can't gay as well as Ness, but he has a lot of freakish stuff [I know that after playing Sheer ]. DK outranges Ness, but I dunno how well he combos her [can he do the same thing to her as he can do to puff]?

For me, +, ?, =

Dunno, mebe.

Falcon vs Fox seems even to me, maybe a slight advantage to Fox due to lazerz, but, well, they seem to wreck each other.

I don't know anything of any 3 of those matchups.

 

[Surri-Sama]

wow and your persistent pessimism is helping tons, too

Yes, i have become sick of this community...can you blame me?...really?

 

[Superstar]

Eh, technically, this isn't a debate thread. Why I don't mind constantly giving in or agreeing. If we keep sticking to one opinion, well, nothing will get done. That said, I kinda agree with Dair, that's kinda why I let him [Boom] convince me it wasn't plus, he knows DK better than I do.

Matchups are 10x better than tiers. Much more fun.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Yoshi has an easy time comboing DK. Utilt to short hop Dair combo continued, ending with a Utilt-Usmash, Uair, or many things. Yoshi can also Fair DK's recovery without getting hit (I nail it 90% of the time).

On the flipside, once Yoshi uses his double jump, he is easy to kill. DK should be able to edgeguard a jump-less Yoshi. Also, I think DK has some attacks that can hit Yoshi out of his second jump (Giant punch? and others?).

Basically, for the sake of edgeguarding, once DK uses his up-B, he's dead, and once Yoshi's second jump is used, he's dead.

Yoshi can double jump out of some DK combos if they are not done properly, and instantly do a Nair or something. But I'm guessing we're assuming the DK doesn't mess up the easy combos.

I don't know what DK can do in this matchup, since I don't play him.

I would say DK is - against Yoshi, but I don't know the matchup enough, so don't take my rating too seriously.

Don't know the other two matchups. Sorry.

Hopefully I don't lose half my post again lol that was too funny

 

[MattNF]

DK vs Pikachu: --

55-45 for pikachu is a - not a --.

 

[Superstar]

The matchup is more than 55-45 in Pikachu's favor

I dunno, I'm inclined to believe Jointz

 

[Lawrencelot]

I have a feeling DK vs Yoshi is - for DK. Yoshi's attacks work well against DK, and DK's vertical movement isn't good enough to edgeguard Yoshi, although his upB is good for that. And DK is heavy, and big, so Yoshi's dair can do massive damage on him. This is all theory from me, don't know if it's indeed the case.

DK vs Samus, no idea. The dair's from Samus don't seem to have a lot of effect while DK's damage is low. But I also don't know what DK should do against Samus.

Falcon vs Fox: = I think. Both can combo and edgeguard each other well.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think Falcon and Fox can both easily kill each other once they get one good hit in. The match probably comes down to who can get that one hit easier. Don't know, don't play the characters...

 

[Winston]

Yes, i have become sick of this community...can you blame me?...really?

Haha whenever I get sick of this community I just stop posting for a while and focus on melee stuff and then in like a month wow ssb is interesting again and I want to talk about it again. >.> But whatever.

55-45 for pikachu is a - not a --.

I think you're the only one who's giving pikachu a 55-45, smoke2jointz said it was DK's worst matchup and I think most of us can agree on that so it deserves a -- to keep his matchups accurate relative to each other. I feel like Pikachu has a large advantage.

X character can do stuff to Y, Y can do stuff to X...

but I don't know the matchup too well so don't listen to me anyway

>.>