attempt at matchup thread

[Surri-Sama]

I think Ness vs Falcon is 50-50. Ness can get REALLY easy gimps and can combo Falcon very easily. Falcon can do the same to him, but has a harder time approaching a campy Ness. The best he can really do is try to b-air -> grab, but that won't work if the Ness utilts right. It all depends on how campy the Ness is.

Mario vs Falcon is like 60-40 for Mario.

Mario vs Ness is like 65-35 for Mario. Mario should NOT lose this matchup, it's very easy to win even if you fight a good Ness.

i agree with all this

but i would also like to clarify that simply because Mario is greater then Ness im match-up, that has nothing to do with the tier list >_>

 

[Superstar]

For some people who'd like to take advantage of that? If someone tries it, I'll try to say Mario > Falcon just cause of the matchup.

I agree with Matt completely. :D Sure, I said maybe Ness had advantage vs Falcon, but they look equal to me now [with maybe slight advantage to one, but neutral can't be 100% equal]. Of course, matchup wise, not tier wise. Those who do not change their minds, are the worst for debates.

Mario vs Ness looks like strong advantage Mario, or almost strong advantage. Methinks strong advantage.

 

[SageMeson]

good to see some useful discussion here. yeah i think Ness vs Mario is -- and vs Falcon is =. This is assuming both players are good as usual. Falcon has the best of it offensively so the ness has to play intelligently and defensively to have equality. (Also its much more difficult to become skilled with ness in comparison to falcon and there are much fewer nesses, this may be influencing some peoples judgement).
My other opinions on Ness's matchups (i play as ness alot):

Pika: -- (aerial ****)

Kirby: - bordering on -- (opinions?)

Fox: -

Jiggz: -- (being grabbed= death and ness has a harder time comboing jiggs.)

Yoshi: unsure. havent played good yoshis. but im leaning towards +

DK: + (dks reach stops it from being ++)

Weeg: - (same reasons as mario but less aerial speed)

Link: + (Link can space well but ness's grab pwns very early)

Samus: = (Annoyingly difficult to combo but samus cant combo either)

also this is a matchup thread not a tier list discussion.

and regarding someones idea for a subforum, discussing individual matchups per thread is hard with a tiny community but we could probably have a thread per character.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Just because a character is higher on the tier list does not mean it destroys every character below it. Matchup threads and tier lists are two completely different things. Take brawl for example... many believe Pikachu counters Snake (at least they did). Snake is # 2, and pika isn't even in the top 10. The tier list simply means that overall, Snakes matchups vs the cast is better than Pika's matchups, even though pika counters snake.

So basically, as we make this matchup thread, we should disreguard anything about how well a character is on the tier list, since it has absolutely no effect on the specific matchup (so to speak).

That said, I don't play much good people, so I can't give the best suggestions / opinions. (my biggest competition gets 3-stocked by my fourth best character if I semi-try). One of the disadvantages of living on Vancouver Island...

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Just because a character is higher on the tier list does not mean it destroys every character below it. Matchup threads and tier lists are two completely different things. Take brawl for example... many believe Pikachu counters Snake (at least they did). Snake is # 2, and pika isn't even in the top 10. The tier list simply means that overall, Snakes matchups vs the cast is better than Pika's matchups, even though pika counters snake.

So basically, as we make this matchup thread, we should disreguard anything about how well a character is on the tier list, since it has absolutely no effect on the specific matchup (so to speak).

That said, I don't play much good people, so I can't give the best suggestions / opinions. (my biggest competition gets 3-stocked by my fourth best character if I semi-try). One of the disadvantages of living on Vancouver Island...

maybe you should of played jack and I at SFU JEEZ

 

[NixxxoN]

I think Ness vs Falcon is 50-50. Ness can get REALLY easy gimps and can combo Falcon very easily. Falcon can do the same to him, but has a harder time approaching a campy Ness. The best he can really do is try to b-air -> grab, but that won't work if the Ness utilts right. It all depends on how campy the Ness is.

Mario vs Falcon is like 60-40 for Mario.

Mario vs Ness is like 65-35 for Mario. Mario should NOT lose this matchup, it's very easy to win even if you fight a good Ness.

I'd say Ness vs Falcon is 45-55, sightly advantage for Falcon. When Falcon does the combo on Ness, is an easy death. But not as easy in the opposite.

I agree about the rest

 

[Superstar]

Ease does not matter in matchup debates. Do you mean, guaranteed [kinda ish]? Cause I made that kind of mistake, before.

I dunno, being pedantic is fun. :3

 

[Blue Yoshi]

As for the old matchup chart, here is one (I think it's the one you guys were talking about):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188942

 

[Superstar]

Ah, this:

Mario should plus Falcon, plus Link, I dunno about a + versus Luigi, and PLUSPLUS Ness. I do not know about versus Kirby/Yoshi. Fireblaster insists it's + vs Kirby, so might as well say it's +.

I hear alot about Kirby vs Fox, so that should be advantage Fox. I vouch for Ness being equal Falcon, dunno Luigi, I already mentioned advantage+ Mario, dunno rest.

That's about all I can poke at *puts up flame shield*.

 

[Winston]

Ah, this:

Mario should plus Falcon, plus Link, I dunno about a + versus Luigi, and PLUSPLUS Ness. I do not know about versus Kirby/Yoshi. Fireblaster insists it's + vs Kirby, so might as well say it's +.

I hear alot about Kirby vs Fox, so that should be advantage Fox. I vouch for Ness being equal Falcon, dunno Luigi, I already mentioned advantage+ Mario, dunno rest.

That's about all I can poke at *puts up flame shield*.

Hey lol my wonderful MS PAINT chart

I don't have issues with most of the top/high tier matchups (basically the ones you have issue with), I just don't know anything about mid/low tier matchups >.>

I kept asking people "hey what's DK vs Jiggs? Samus vs Yoshi? Jiggs vs Ness? etc." cuz I have no idea (I mostly guessed for those kinds of slots), but I didn't get a whole lot of responses. I feel like I really need to fix DK's matchups, he probably has a lot more even matchups but I don't know which ones they are.

Yeah I would give mario a ++ vs ness now. Dunno what I was thinking. I would think mario vs kirby is 55-45 for mario at best which I consider = range. Same for kirby/fox.

And I have yet to be convinced about Ness vs Falcon or Mario vs Falcon. However it is true that I haven't played a good ness or mario in 1,000,000 years. Wanna p2p?

 

[Lawrencelot]

I played a falcon today with my Luigi. Granted, the Falcon wasn't very good but I think Luigi does decent against Falcon. To see whether it should be changed into = or + I'd have to fight someone who's Falcon is as good as my Luigi...

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Luigi and Mario > Falcon

DK > samus, Link & Ness. Imo. Some might disagree for ness, but I've never really had any problems with dk vs ness matchup. it's a Usmash easy kill at 90%

Ness = Falcon

Jiggs = Link

Kirby > Jiggs

Samus > Kirby. Seriously, this has to be one of the most realistic thing ever, Samus can easily **** kirby if played defensively.

 

[Zantetsu]

These matchup threads always fail for one reason...

We have too many discussions going on at once. Why hasn't anyone made a match up thread where we discuss 1 matchup every day? It will keep things organized and on topic rather then 8 people discussing millions of matchups at once.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

These matchup threads always fail for one reason...

We have too many discussions going on at once. Why hasn't anyone made a match up thread where we discuss 1 matchup every day? It will keep things organized and on topic rather then 8 people discussing millions of matchups at once.

I did try making this, everyone said wtf and the topic died. I could try making another one.

Also, jiggs even or over Kirby and DK > Jiggs.

Jiggs vs Kirby is probably better for Jiggs. Jiggs has quicker kills and Kirby's up tilt can't combo..

DK vs Jiggs is one of the few broken matchups. Throw into giant punch actually works and kills after the throw at HMM....20.

 

[Superstar]

Also, Jiggs can combo Mario just fine. Ness is easier, but Mario can be comboed just fine. Rest comboed and all that. After that, I think it should be = or still + for Mario. Methinks =. Jiggs aerial mobility helps dodge Fireballs, I know.

Agree with BH, but, it'd be difficult to setup, or at least, tedious. Which is bleh.

 

[Winston]

So why don't we start now?

my proposal:

Go down the list by character, do that character's matchups, probably in groups of 3 at a time (because 1 at a time would take too long). Once we reach a consensus then I'll record them and we move on. You guys up for this?

First up: DK
matchups: vs Falcon, Fox, Jiggs

what I have:

DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Fox: -

Both fox and falcon can combo DK and approach him pretty well, but DK has his DK TRIX on fastfallers/heavy characters. Grab gimps on small stages, box grab combos on hyrule. Giving him a - (disadvantage) to both.

DK vs Jiggs: ?

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Dk vs Jiggs = - -

Jiggs has so many good combos vs DK Like uthrow > uair > uair > uair > rest. dk is to fat for the jiggs.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

how is luigi good against falcon at all?

first of all luigi is slow as balls, and falcon has insane speed to outmaneuver luigi in any situation

 

[Seala]

Dk vs Jiggs = - -

Jiggs has so many good combos vs DK Like uthrow > uair > uair > uair > rest. dk is to fat for the jiggs.

But on the other hand DK can kill jiggs in seconds with no effort Cause jiggs generally has to get dk very high for a kill, unless it's a rest, while dk can kill jiggs super early.

 

[Seala]

how is luigi good against falcon at all?

first of all luigi is slow as balls, and falcon has insane speed to outmaneuver luigi in any situation

Yes but he can combo Falcon pretty easily and his floatyness makes him harder to combo aswell.

 

[Zantetsu]

We're not on Falcon vs Luigi yet. Try and keep this following the 3 match ups we already have.

DK vs Falcon: I think it's obvious that Falcon has the advantage here. If Falcons combos weren't more simple then they already were, DK just makes them so much easier. DK's recovery also seems to be easily gimped by falcons spike. The only advantage I see DK having in this is Falcons weight is easy to combo. I'd put this match up at 30:70 in favor of Falcon.

DK vs Fox: Almost the same as falcon. Instead of being able to easily gimp DK's recovery, fox has a projectile that's really easy to hit DK with. Once again, the only advantage I see for DK in this one is the weight of fox and it's really easy to gimp fox's recovery. I'd probably put this one around 35:65 in favor for Fox.

DK vs Jigglypuff: This one is incredibly hard. I'm not sure if I can base an opinion on this one yet...

*Don't judge my opinions to harshly. Keep in mind that this is posted at 1:30am and I'm probably not thinking too clearly due to being quite tired. I'll make some edits later.*

 

[Winston]

We're not on Falcon vs Luigi yet. Try and keep this following the 3 match ups we already have.

DK vs Falcon: I think it's obvious that Falcon has the advantage here. If Falcons combos weren't more simple then they already were, DK just makes them so much easier. DK's recovery also seems to be easily gimped by falcons spike. The only advantage I see DK having in this is Falcons weight is easy to combo. I'd put this match up at 30:70 in favor of Falcon.

DK vs Fox: Almost the same as falcon. Instead of being able to easily gimp DK's recovery, fox has a projectile that's really easy to hit DK with. Once again, the only advantage I see for DK in this one is the weight of fox and it's really easy to gimp fox's recovery. I'd probably put this one around 35:65 in favor for Fox.

DK vs Jigglypuff: This one is incredibly hard. I'm not sure if I can base an opinion on this one yet...

*Don't judge my opinions to harshly. Keep in mind that this is posted at 1:30am and I'm probably not thinking too clearly due to being quite tired. I'll make some edits later.*

yay, your assessments basically match mine exactly, haha... also, thanks for helping keeping things on track.

also, do you think we need a separate thread? I kind of didn't want to make one... but it seems like it'd help focus.

 

[Seala]

I've played alot of DK vs Falcon and in our matches DK usually comes out on top, I don't really know why it just usually turns out that way.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

depends what stage you play on. DK plays much differently on dreamland than hyrule and same with falcon etc.

 

[Lawrencelot]

how is luigi good against falcon at all?

first of all luigi is slow as balls, and falcon has insane speed to outmaneuver luigi in any situation

Well what I did against that Falcon is grab him on Dreamland, throw him offstage, and spike him, and it worked like 3 matches in a row with a 4 or 5-stock for me. That Falcon wasn't great like I said, but he did much better against for example my Ness or Fox while Luigi isn't exactly my greatest character. Also the uair juggle into upB is pretty easy against Falcon after a certain percentage, or alternatively uair into downB.

 

[SageMeson]

agree with BHLMRO and Gustav about the way we should approach this so try to keep the matchup discussion focused guys.

for the three listed:

DK vs Falcon: -

DK vs Fox: -

[Falcon slightly better than fox so basically i agree with whats been said]

DK vs Jiggz: ++ or at very least +

remember this is the hypothetical results ratio of two players at near human mastery of the characters. jiggz can combo dk hard (as he can nearly everyone) but a good dk is very hard to approach as jiggly. moves like Utilt, Uair, Grab->Giant Punch are very useful for the dk. though imo it takes more skill to 'master' dk than jiggly.

 

[Superstar]

Skill to master should be left out.

If there is no consensus reached, I think we can just put a ?, and come back to it later. I agree with the arguments, except I'm unsure about Jiggs. So, that means:

DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Jiggs: ?

I'll make a program that creates matchup chart images, to keep this easier to do and update. I might as well start that now.

Might as well make a new thread, with the one maintaining the program changing the first image.

 

[MattNF]

DK vs Jiggs - 70-30 for DK. Jiggly gets destroyed in this matchup. Fthrow -> giant punch combos, anyone?

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

DK vs Jiggs - 70-30 for DK. Jiggly gets destroyed in this matchup. Fthrow -> giant punch combos, anyone?

What % can you fthrow to Dk punch jiggs? I've never even seen that before, lol.

On the other hand, jiggly can just Fthrow and 0-death Dk almost everytime.

 

[Winston]

Skill to master should be left out.

If there is no consensus reached, I think we can just put a ?, and come back to it later. I agree with the arguments, except I'm unsure about Jiggs. So, that means:

DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Jiggs: ?

I'll make a program that creates matchup chart images, to keep this easier to do and update. I might as well start that now.

Might as well make a new thread, with the one maintaining the program changing the first image.

Wow I was going to do that but I guess you're doing it so ^__^ good on you

besides you're probably better at computer stuff than I am anyway

also, we should give it at least a few volleys before moving on, I mean that's the point of having a discussion thread and not just everybody vote, right? We seem to be getting towards DK > Jiggs, with DK's range and ability to consistently land giant punches being the key factors.

So, DK vs Jiggs is ++ DK?

Also, does everyone agree that 70-30 and above constitutes a ++ (aka large advantage)? Or would people prefer to just use numbers?

@ boomfan:

Yes I realize stage plays a HUGE role in how matchups play out, more so than in the other games because our neutral stages are really different from each other. However if we're gonna do a matchup thread at all it really has to just be a sort of "average" between the stages.

 

[Superstar]

Anyone can do it once they have a copy of the program. Making it right now. The only hard part will be the image creation. It's not hacking a rom so I should be fine.

If that fthrow->Pawnch thing is true, I'm gonna have to go with DK winning. That should kill easily due to weight. Jiggs only real advantage is aerial mobility, and that ape's range is too good.

I don't play either Jiggs or DK, just toyed with them, so I'll go ahead and agree. I should throw in, though, that once all matchups are created, there should be some overall discussion on any quirks people have with it. Like a stage 2, if you will.

And Gustav, answer my PM.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

What % can you fthrow to Dk punch jiggs? I've never even seen that before, lol.

On the other hand, jiggly can just Fthrow and 0-death Dk almost everytime.

simple combo to kill Jigglypuff, Grab, jiggs gets out, regrab giant punch, it works EVERY time. unless there is a wall. ++ matchup for DK on both stages, if anything, better for Jigglypuff on DL since its easier to kill and there are platforms to prevent the throw combos.


Otherwise, my opinions:

DK vs Falcon: Lets also go by stages as Boomfan said, Falcon over DK on Hyrule, there is less room for DK to throw gimp and Falcon can combo much quicker than DK can to get a kill. 70-30 Falcon. DK can up b gimp and throw gimp falcon very easily on DL. On Dreamland, 60-40. - matchup on both

DK vs Fox: "Almost the same as falcon. Instead of being able to easily gimp DK's recovery, fox has a projectile that's really easy to hit DK with. Once again, the only advantage I see for DK in this one is the weight of fox and it's really easy to gimp fox's recovery. I'd probably put this one around 35:65 in favor for Fox." In my opinion, same on Hyrule, but 50-50 or 60-40 Fox on DL. Fox is easier to gimp than falcon for DK and Laser's aren't as much of a problem on a smaller stage. - matchup on Hyrule, = or - on DL.

 

[Winston]

So Giant Punch seriously kills jiggs from like 20%?

 

[MattNF]

What % can you fthrow to Dk punch jiggs? I've never even seen that before, lol.

On the other hand, jiggly can just Fthrow and 0-death Dk almost everytime.

Not sure the exact percent, but I know it's really low and will KO almost every time.

 

[Winston]

In any case it looks like we're done with these.

DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Jiggs: ++

If anyone has a further objection then state it but I guess we'll move on in the meantime.
On to the next 3:

DK vs Kirby
DK vs Link
DK vs Luigi

and these I have no idea. xD

 

[Superstar]

I saw DK vs Link should be a - just cause Link is sexy.

Well, I dunno, really. Personally:

DK vs Kirby: -
DK vs Link: = or - [I don't know, you can easily beat me there]
DK vs Luigi: + [Luigi only really does will against floaties I think, but I can easily be beat there too]

Kirby's range is too good, DK is too easy to gimp [dair], and Kirby combos him to bloody hell.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I agree with Superstar about kirby matchup, also Kirby can swallow (if this move is used)...and up tilt combos into an easy giant punch combo. Its probably worse for DK on Dreamland since DK can't camp there, so I would say -- on DL, - or -- on HC. Its probably -- overall.

for DK vs Link. - on HC (projectile camping over DK), + on DL. DK has an easier time with Link on DL since its easier for him to gimp Link.. so Equal overall since one stage is + and the other minus?

For Luigi: Probably + for DK since as you said, Luigi has problem comboing DK or any non-light chars.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

In any case it looks like we're done with these.

DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Jiggs: ++

If anyone has a further objection then state it but I guess we'll move on in the meantime.
On to the next 3:

DK vs Kirby
DK vs Link
DK vs Luigi

and these I have no idea. xD

I agree, let's move on!


Dk vs Kirby should be one + for kirby. Although DK has many of the same working combos from vs jigglypuff, kirby is just a little heavier.

Also, utilt-fair-fsmash-spike edgeguard works too well on Donkeykong. Once he's off the edge a simple MATTS! edgeguard does the trick almost everytime. Very gimpable.

DK vs Link I would have to say is equal, they can both mess eachother up, link can combo DK for 2 hours and DK can throw link off the edge and us up-b for a 0%-death combo that is very simple.


Dk vs link may be a + for Dk due to the low % easy kills and gimpability, but I would place them equal.

Finally, DK vs luigi I won't even comment on. What a weird matchup. I would think it would be a + for luigi though, again for the combos, and because the fire pawnch works on DK as a finisher (usually)

to summarize

DK vs Kirby: -
DK vs Link : =
DK vs Luigi : -

 

[Winston]

Can Link really combo heavy characters from low percent?

I would think he can combo DK really well at mid percents, maybe 40 and up, but under that seems iffy.

Also, what tools does DK have for getting around the uptilt from kirby?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Also, what tools does DK have for getting around the uptilt from kirby?

The Down-b

Can Link really combo heavy characters from low percent?

I would think he can combo DK really well at mid percents, maybe 40 and up, but under that seems iffy.

True, it's hard to combo DK at 0% with link. But link can easily rack up damage with his boomerange, bombs, and shdair spam. Then once Dk breaks 35% or so, link can destroy him in a combo.

I still say its an equal matchup, DK vs Link