attempt at matchup thread

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Dk vs kirby =

Dk infinite grab on kirby can change things all around.

Plus, DK got an easy gimp on this one Dair > Usmash at 80 kirby is dead.

Agree for:

DK vs Link =
Dk vs luigi -

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Dk does have several techniques that can destroy kirby, but they really do require better mindgames, dair-usmash is SO obvious, even Matts! will be looking out for that one.

Everything about kirby's moveset counter's DK. I can't see why you'd say that's an equal matchup.

DK infinate grab is lame, I'm sorry. It should be banned from competitive play, but it doesn't have to because no one is boring enough to only use that one strategy.

edit :

What if we get another MATTS! who plays dk and does nothing but the infinate grab?!??! lol jk I know its easy to get out of online since it has delay and makes things like that harder to time perfectly.

 

[SageMeson]

Plus, DK got an easy gimp on this one Dair > Usmash at 80 kirby is dead.

getting a defensive kirby to 80% is the trouble though.

My thoughts:

vs Kirby: - (i like kirby vs most heavies but DK the least due to range)

vs Link: = (throw&gimp **** vs projectile&combo&kill ****)

vs Luigi: - (hard to decide but luigis better recovery and upb combos seem to swing it. also luigis dair could well be used as a gimping tool vs dk. ill bow to the opinions of those more experienced with this one though)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Also, utilt has infinatly more priority than DK's dair. Dair to stomp is RISKY vs kirby with such an easy counter attack.

 

[Superstar]

I agree with the Kirby and Link stuff [-/=]. I am not really convinced on Luigi though. Luigi's combos are more effective against lightweights than heavies. DK is a little bit more "lightweight" [yes, I know he is the heaviest] than Fox/Falcon, so maybe it changes things.

We need DK vs Luigi matches NOW.

Also, program interface is kinda done. Now I have to do saving.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh. What does Luigi do to approach again? Spam crappy fireballs? Hahahahaha
Also, feet of doom > Luigi's crappy approach

O yeah, combos...uhh...
Drills combos suck.

 

[MattNF]

I agree with Dylan, DK's infinite needs to be banned. If you fight a good player who uses it, it's **** near impossible to escape.

On topic: Kirby vs DK is better for Kirby. His priority just destroys dK and his utilt prevents dair -> usmash combos. I'd say it's a - for DK or around 60-40 matchup.

vs Link : =, they both can do devastating stuff to each other.

vs Luigi = -- or -, Luigi's huge shorthop is mitigated by the fact that DK is so huge. Luigi can do very easy combos, and also do very easy gimps with one or two dairs off the stage.

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Also, utilt has infinatly more priority than DK's dair. Dair to stomp is RISKY vs kirby with such an easy counter attack.

The thing is that everything is risky versus utilt, it has priority over EVERYTHING. So, most of the thing versus kirby is luck,defense and cheapness. Either you play a kirby like MATTS! that only utilt and dair which the only way to go around this is being cheap at your turn and if you play a kirby like any other's (noobs) that don't utilt much but spams Smashes then you need to play defensively and get lucky in your priorities lol.

Still to summarize, playing agaisnt kirby resolves around nothing. The tactic to use agaisnt kirby users can change every match with every characters and in every stages.

Ex: Kirby vs DK in dreamland: Utilt > utilt > utilt > Dair > Fsmash > Dair on recovery. Repeat 5 times to win.

In hyrule: Same thing, but it takes more then a fsmash to get dk out (depending where you are) so Dk can actually have a chance to counter and hope to not mess up and do a 0-death combo. Which hardly ever happens


But, that's what get us back to debating on stages for each characters, because in 64 stages do REALLY matter for a lot of characters.

When in melee will you really care about 1 character in 1 neutral stage...Compared to 64 where most will never want to play agaisnt kirby in DL and DK in hyrule.

 

[SageMeson]

oh and does everyone agree that:
45%-55% is equal
55%-70% is +
>70% is ++

? as some people are talking in percents which will be harder to reach agreement on for now.

 

[Wenbobular]

>70% matchups exist? I don't think there's enough of those to justify 70%...

 

[Winston]

>70% matchups exist? I don't think there's enough of those to justify 70%...

I think 70% and up as ++ is reasonable. There are plenty of 70-30 and worse matchups.

also, Luigi vs DK is proving to be difficult >.>

does anyone actually play this matchup?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

you should test the matchup

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

you should test the matchup

Maybe a good dk vs your luigi? From what I remember it has more BEEF! than your pikachu. do like a few matches.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Maybe a good dk vs your luigi? From what I remember it has more BEEF! than your pikachu. do like a few matches.

I would rather be dk honestly, whoever wants to try the match..pm or IM me.

 

[Superstar]

Yeah, DK vs Luigi should be tested. However, I'm a horrible Luigi, so good luck.

Dair plays both Luigi and DK methinks, so perhaps you both can swap DK/Luigi occasionally to get a better idea, maybe. Because just who wins doesn't prove much [but everyone knows that].

 

[Skrlx]

Yeah, DK vs Luigi should be tested. However, I'm a horrible Luigi, so good luck.

Dair plays both Luigi and DK methinks, so perhaps you both can swap DK/Luigi occasionally to get a better idea, maybe. Because just who wins doesn't prove much [but everyone knows that].

wat


i play/main everyone but DK is fun to play with and WEEGEE is too good.

 

[Superstar]

I play everyone too. Well, not everyone, but here is who I play:

Mario
Ness
Jiggs
Pikachu
Falcon
Fox
Kirby [yeh, I do sometimes]
Link [yayuhz]
Might pick up DK after those DK dits

Well, I notice you mention DK/Weegee a lot...bleh.

 

[Skrlx]

I play everyone too. Well, not everyone, but here is who I play:

Mario
Ness
Jiggs
Pikachu
Falcon
Fox
Kirby [yeh, I do sometimes]
Link [yayuhz]
Might pick up DK after those DK dits

Well, I notice you mention DK/Weegee a lot...bleh.

lol i play them all!!!

well i use DK to play everybody. I stick to it even if they counterpick a char/stage(well i can do it with everyone but yeah)

and weegee? heh too good.

 

[MattNF]

fireblaster and chaos theory have good luigis

 

[Skrlx]

fireblaster and chaos theory have good luigis

fireblaster..good luigi?

 

[MattNF]

fireblaster..good luigi?

better than yours

 

[Skrlx]

better than yours

wat

you never want to p2p with me so unless you want to p2p i'll show you my weegee and other various characters of doom

 

[MattNF]

you always ask me to play p2p at like 4am >_______>

ANYWAY let's get back on topic

 

[Winston]

Wow "testing" with boomfan seems like a terrible idea anyway xD

but it would help some I guess...

So far we have:

Superstar, KoroBeniki, probably Wenbo with DK vs Luigi + or =
Dylan Tnga, Agony, MattNF with DK vs Luigi -

anybody else have anything to say about it >.>

 

[Frogles]

luigi > dk

TRUE ****ING STORY

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Luigi can Dair > uair > uair > Uair > Uair > Down B or Up b or Usmash if a platform is used. True fax.


Dk can....'t do **** !

 

[Wenbobular]

Feet of doom!

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

Feet of doom will never win versus floating of death !

 

[Wenbobular]

Lies...all lies...
Also, apparently I can host p2p now...

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

 

[Wenbobular]

I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

Winner for most pointless comment ever
I'm willing to get a few DK vs Weegee matches p2p sometime this week before I move back into my dorm (with the worst internet ever).

 

[Winston]

Luigi can Dair > uair > uair > Uair > Uair > Down B or Up b or Usmash if a platform is used. True fax.


Dk can....'t do **** !

Feet of doom!

Feet of doom will never win versus floating of death !

Lies...all lies...
Also, apparently I can host p2p now...

T__T

I don't know anything about that matchup. Sorry.

yeahhhh random guy

SO it looks like we should be moving on... I'm entering

DK vs Kirby: -- pretty much consensus, kirby has a significant advantage. I'm not factoring in the infinite grab trap here. THIS AINT BRAWL

DK vs Link: = They both have game against each other, I feel like Link has a pretty big
disadvantage on dreamland/small stages but overall = is good

DK vs Luigi: - Luigi is floaty slow and silly but DK can't take advantage of this too much, Luigi can combo DK alright, DK doesn't have a whole lot going for him here

as always, if you have any significant objections fire away, otherwise we're on to:

DK vs Mario
DK vs Ness
DK vs Pikachu

DK vs Mario seems pretty clearly in Mario's favor. Combos, Fireballs, Floatiness, Edgeguarding all are in his favor.
DK vs Ness.... Lol. IONO
DK vs Pikachu... seems like it's **** in Pika's favor

gogogo

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon has a hard time comboing Mario [harder than most, he's a floaty]. Mario's fireballs can force an appraoch/**** over his projectile-less self. Mario can still combo him fine, catching him in larger uair chains than many other chars. Falcon's recovery sucks as bad as Ness [give or take, it's horrible], and Mario's **** at edgeguarding. If that's not enough, Mario can STILL kill Falcon at a reasonably high [78ish] percent off the top anyways with a usmash. Falcon though, can't be easily comboed by Mario until the 50s, can dodge fireballs better, and I THINK his nair can block fireballs. Fox is a different story. Not hard advantage though. Just seems slight to me.

Ness' only real merits is that Falcon lacks a projectile so he can play more defensive vs Falcon than he would versus, say Mario, and Falcon is EASY to combo with Ness. Ness isn't a floaty, so Falcon can combo Ness fine, and they both **** each other's recoveries [Ness has an easier time with his throws, but that's about it]. That one can be argued much more than Falcon vs Mario.

By subjective, I mean, what IS considered a major advantage. I know an algorithm is impossible to do, but, it'd still be good to define what is a hard counter. Is it something that just has it better by a larger margin, or a matchup where you just cannot win unless you're a god [more for Brawl than 64ish]. Or would you go by picking the worst matchups, then going down until you "that's enough"?

Agreed with Wen. And yes, these arguments are fun. :D I look serious, but if I were, I'd be shouting insults. :D

Mario is hard to combo with Falcon if you are high on crack cocaine or lack combo knowledge. Thrown fireballs can be taken out by falcon's jab or a simple aerial attack (every single move Falcon has works except obviously Up-B, but you should jab or aerial for the least amount of lag), running away, etc. Yes, fireballs will work on mostly dum falcon players but matchups aren't about fighting dumb people playing easy to use characters.

Upsmash doesn't kill until around ~100% ish, and any Mario with a brain can combo Falcon to near death or death by simply using shorthop down-air to up-air in a single drill combo, then replacing down-air --> up-air with 2 up-airs in 1 short hop.

Really great marios can use each of the knockbacks of the weaker/stronger up-airs perfectly so that Falcon flies the perfect distance for effective comboing.

Falcon and Mario both have great gimp games on each other. A correctly-timed stomp from Falcon will trade hits with Mario-s Up-B and Mario will be flying down while Falcon gets popped up briefly. Mario can get things started with a throw off the stage to the commonly-used (and commonly missed) drill to make it impossible for Falcon to make it back.

And so, I place a slight advantage (56-44) on Falcon's part. To me it's a matchup where with competent players, either player can win.

Ness, I really don't feel like going into crazy detail but I feel that the little boy with a big head is getting some harsh treatment from people for some reason. I'd place him as worse than Falcon or Fox and roughly tied with Mario/Jiggly. He is not as crappy as Luigi as people say. Most people really underestimate Ness's recovery, saying it is the worst, but sometimes his 2nd jump is good enough to make it back. Simply press down-b when you are touching the edge and you automatically grab-on. There are many situations where the opponent simply can't make you not touch the edge.

People really underestimate Donkey Kong as well. His sheer ability to gay half the cast in many ways make him viable for almost any matchup. His combo ability.. it gets the job done also. Infinite up-airs with platform drop. Grab bounce off wall grab again bounce to DEATH CLAP. Down-B is a great option when your opponent lands on the ground.. 95% of the time it goes like this. He techs and rolls left -> bounces up and gets giant punched. Techs and rolls right--> gets bounced up and gets giant punched. Doesn't tech and sits there --> bounced up and gets giant punched. Techs--> gets bounced up and gets giant punched.

A funny trick (for me) when I use Donkey Kong when they are kill percentage but your back isn't to the edge is to grab them and forward throw 1st half (cargo), turn around, and then they escape, grab and back throw then quickly taunt spam. Donkey Kong's taunt is the most homosexual taunt in the game and should be used to used accordingly with his homosexual game plan

If you think Donkey Kong is easy, most likely you are using a not-so-easily gayed character such as Pikachu or you are fighting Donkey Kongs who aren't being as gay as they can possibly be. I will say that he gets smacked around very easily though

I feel that Link is underrated and should move up.. but i'll save that for later

Alright I'll just say it now. Everybody says "Link get's backthrowd off stage." I'm sorry but only strange, weird people try to attack people on the edge unless they are sure they are going to hit. Just fight in the middle and space yourself correctly with your projectiles. Also, despite popular belief, his recovery is actually safer than Falcon's due to Link's ability to throw a boomerang while 2nd jumping and his somewhat horizontal safety given by Link's up-b.

Link really has no real blemish besides his overly bashed recovery. He is great at offense and defense and against most of the cast has a great approach, great edgeguard and combo ability.



In n64 smash, there's virtually no matchup where its impossible for the other person to win. I'd say Samus vs Fox is one of the worst for Samus due to Fox's ability to laser camp, combo Samus easily but a tiny mistake from Fox can have him off the stage for Samus's decent edgeguarding ability. It's really down to your knowledge of the matchup and skill. Every character is viable for tournament play, something you can't really say for almost any other fighting game

 

[Winston]

First of all, nice post. It's a little awkward that you're addressing a discussion we had 5 pages back, but there's definitely a lot more thought to it than the usual "X character can combo and edgeguard Y pretty well" responses >.>

You seem to know a lot about most of the characters in this game so I'd appreciate it if you'd give some input on the matchups that we're discussing/having problems with currently =)

Mario is hard to combo with Falcon if you are high on crack cocaine or lack combo knowledge. Thrown fireballs can be taken out by falcon's jab or a simple aerial attack (every single move Falcon has works except obviously Up-B, but you should jab or aerial for the least amount of lag), running away, etc. Yes, fireballs will work on mostly dum falcon players but matchups aren't about fighting dumb people playing easy to use characters.

Upsmash doesn't kill until around ~100% ish, and any Mario with a brain can combo Falcon to near death or death by simply using shorthop down-air to up-air in a single drill combo, then replacing down-air --> up-air with 2 up-airs in 1 short hop.

Really great marios can use each of the knockbacks of the weaker/stronger up-airs perfectly so that Falcon flies the perfect distance for effective comboing.

Falcon and Mario both have great gimp games on each other. A correctly-timed stomp from Falcon will trade hits with Mario-s Up-B and Mario will be flying down while Falcon gets popped up briefly. Mario can get things started with a throw off the stage to the commonly-used (and commonly missed) drill to make it impossible for Falcon to make it back.

And so, I place a slight advantage (56-44) on Falcon's part. To me it's a matchup where with competent players, either player can win.

Good summary of the matchup. I think the only other aspect worth mentioning is the maneuverability advantage falcon has, but I guess that's pretty obvious.
I was starting to think I was the only one who thought Falcon > Mario in the matchup... it's not a huge advantage, but it's uphill for Mario.

Ness, I really don't feel like going into crazy detail but I feel that the little boy with a big head is getting some harsh treatment from people for some reason. I'd place him as worse than Falcon or Fox and roughly tied with Mario/Jiggly. He is not as crappy as Luigi as people say. Most people really underestimate Ness's recovery, saying it is the worst, but sometimes his 2nd jump is good enough to make it back. Simply press down-b when you are touching the edge and you automatically grab-on. There are many situations where the opponent simply can't make you not touch the edge.

I guess I have been a little too vocal in my ness bashing, I feel like he's 6-7th best "overall" (though that's not what we're discussing here), right in the middle. Lots of people seem to want to put him 3rd-5th best and that's too high in my view so I've been saying a lot of anti-ness stuff.
About recovery though: really, who has a worse recovery in terms of gimpability than Ness though?

People really underestimate Donkey Kong as well. His sheer ability to gay half the cast in many ways make him viable for almost any matchup. His combo ability.. it gets the job done also. Infinite up-airs with platform drop. Grab bounce off wall grab again bounce to DEATH CLAP. Down-B is a great option when your opponent lands on the ground.. 95% of the time it goes like this. He techs and rolls left -> bounces up and gets giant punched. Techs and rolls right--> gets bounced up and gets giant punched. Doesn't tech and sits there --> bounced up and gets giant punched. Techs--> gets bounced up and gets giant punched.

I really try not to underestimate DK, I don't know too much about him so I'm always hesitant to say something about his matchups, I just can't see him having too many favorable matchups. He definitely has lots of good tools, and he can be really gay to non-floaty characters, not denying that. However due to his property of being Enormous DK Combo Bait, almost everybody can be really gay to him also.

I feel that Link is underrated and should move up.. but i'll save that for later

Alright I'll just say it now. Everybody says "Link get's backthrowd off stage." I'm sorry but only strange, weird people try to attack people on the edge unless they are sure they are going to hit. Just fight in the middle and space yourself correctly with your projectiles. Also, despite popular belief, his recovery is actually safer than Falcon's due to Link's ability to throw a boomerang while 2nd jumping and his somewhat horizontal safety given by Link's up-b.

Link really has no real blemish besides his overly bashed recovery. He is great at offense and defense and against most of the cast has a great approach, great edgeguard and combo ability.

Correct me if I'm wrong but his combo game only really starts at mid-percents, right? Most of the better characters have good combo options from 0 or from low percents.
Link's projectile and spacing game is pretty insane, but I think when it really comes down to it Link just gets punished super hard for making a mistake by almost anybody. I know you wrote stuff about how Link's recovery isn't THAT bad but it's bad enough. If you have to outplay your opponents by a significant amount (i.e. make few enough mistakes) in order to win, I think that really says something about where the character should be in the tier list/matchups. Link over Samus is very reasonable but beyond that it doesn't seem likely, especially considering you seem to be saying that all the lower tiered characters are underrated.

In n64 smash, there's virtually no matchup where its impossible for the other person to win. I'd say Samus vs Fox is one of the worst for Samus due to Fox's ability to laser camp, combo Samus easily but a tiny mistake from Fox can have him off the stage for Samus's decent edgeguarding ability. It's really down to your knowledge of the matchup and skill. Every character is viable for tournament play, something you can't really say for almost any other fighting game

I mean, this is kind of true. But I feel like the "every character is viable" is really a result of us having a really small community, almost no big tournaments with cash prizes, etc. Like you said, matchup knowledge is really important, but what if there were enough tournaments so that most players had competent knowledge/experience of all their matchups? Then the fact that some characters are inherently much better than others would start to take more effect.


In other news, I hope this doesn't derail the current 3 matchup discussions too much >.>

 

[Lawrencelot]

DK vs Mario and DK vs Pika is - or -- for DK.

Actually I find that DK does pretty well against Ness. But I don't know why. Maybe because the grabs are one of the few things that can be effectively used against the utilts, but the jcuairs are still a problem. Oh and if Ness shorthops DK can still grab him, but that counts for a lot of chars. Also the bair can be used well against utilts because of the range. Together with the nice upB edgeguard, I think DK vs Ness should not be much less than =.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I agree that the Mario vs Falcon is closer then most people think...but i dont see Falcon getting the better end of it...>_>

Your wall-o-text doesnt look fun to read sorry...

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

DK vs Mario and DK vs Pika is - or -- for DK.

Actually I find that DK does pretty well against Ness. But I don't know why. Maybe because the grabs are one of the few things that can be effectively used against the utilts, but the jcuairs are still a problem. Oh and if Ness shorthops DK can still grab him, but that counts for a lot of chars. Also the bair can be used well against utilts because of the range. Together with the nice upB edgeguard, I think DK vs Ness should not be much less than =.

I agree, I find DK good versus ness to. I don't know why, but maybe it's because every ness player I fought sucked hard, so yeah.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I agree, I find DK good versus ness to. I don't know why, but maybe it's because every ness player I fought sucked hard, so yeah.

DK may seem good vs Ness because his Back throw can put Ness offstage very easy...

but on the other hand (if we could find some good Ness players) Ness' Dair is hell for DK, having no top priority on his recovery...plus Ness' throw doesnt suck xP

 

[Superstar]

Smoke's post was awesome. Sure it was against me, but dayum that **** was awesome.

I noticed that fireballs can be cancelled by Falcon's aerials[and, I say Kirby can do the same, but everyone disagrees and consider Fireballs deadly], and after fighting Gustav, Mario is comboed fine. However, I notice the tip of dair->uair thing doesn't really seem to work right against better opponents. I notice dair period doesn't help. Fastfalled uairs seem like a much better combo starter, however, those don't kick in until 50%. And USmash kills Falcon 87% on Hyrule base floor [before hit, after it's > 100%]. Varies on stages, but meh.

Also, Mario has DSmash to edgeguard Falcon. I noticed Gustav was able to tech it, although I could keep DSmashing.

DownB at the edge sweetspots it? OH SHI!

I think it'd be better to list DK vs Luigi as a ?, no one tested it, would have been better to test it.

I think DK vs Mario is -, vs Ness, well, I dunno [DK gimps Ness, Ness gimps DK, dunno DK's combos on Ness, Ness combos DK to bloody hell]. I'd say = myself or + for Ness, but I have very little matchup experience with this. Vs Pikachu, - or --.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Smoke's post was awesome. Sure it was against me, but dayum that **** was awesome.

I noticed that fireballs can be cancelled by Falcon's aerials[and, I say Kirby can do the same, but everyone disagrees and consider Fireballs deadly], and after fighting Gustav, Mario is comboed fine. However, I notice the tip of dair->uair thing doesn't really seem to work right against better opponents. I notice dair period doesn't help. Fastfalled uairs seem like a much better combo starter, however, those don't kick in until 50%. And USmash kills Falcon 87% on Hyrule base floor [before hit, after it's > 100%]. Varies on stages, but meh.

Also, Mario has DSmash to edgeguard Falcon. I noticed Gustav was able to tech it, although I could keep DSmashing.

DownB at the edge sweetspots it? OH SHI!

I think it'd be better to list DK vs Luigi as a ?, no one tested it, would have been better to test it.

I think DK vs Mario is -, vs Ness, well, I dunno [DK gimps Ness, Ness gimps DK, dunno DK's combos on Ness, Ness combos DK to bloody hell]. I'd say = myself or + for Ness, but I have very little matchup experience with this. Vs Pikachu, - or --.

ffs, dont you know Ness is -- for everyone because his recovery sucks?