• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

attempt at matchup thread

Superstar

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
Miami, Florida
Wait, I get the feeling Fox > Mario.

I can't tell fully why, but I hate JC Shines, and lasers are evil. Fox is comboed a little easier than Falcon [easier to combo low percents harder higher compared to Falcon], which is nice for Mario, but think of Fox as a witch with 2x health that doesn't cry. Matt will know what I'm talking about.

I will say though, no difficulty edgeguarding Mario my ***, everyone has difficulty edgeguarding Mario. It's like half of the time or something Mario should make it back. And don't take my matches as full proof, my downB mashing skills are poop. ;_;
 

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
Location
Storrs, Connecticut
Fox has to laser camp, land a lot of hits here and there, has to hope that Mario doesn't DI out of his drill and jab combos, and basically work his *** off. Mario can not only juggle fox to usmash decently, but one hit on fox = one throw on fox. And most of the time it takes just one techchase to get fox thrown off the edge, and then he's a goner in a few hits.

+ for Mario.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'd say Fox has the advantage (but not online with 3 or more frames of delay)

Fox can play defensive all he wants with lasers, attacking in whenever he feels like there is an opening. It's easier for Fox to attack/defend against Mario with superior movement, containment with lasers, and overall more versatile moves. His speed is also 2nd highest in the game, just 2nd to that of Falcon (also Fox's initial dash is faster)

Fox's lasers absolutely take a dump on Mario's fireballs in terms of usefulness in this matchup. Fireballs can be killed by any aerial, even a jab (i think) and can be jump-canceled reflectored.

Fox to me also combos Mario just as well, if not slightly better, against Mario. A simple starter is down-tilt to up-air(s) to a "finisher" aerial like n-air or you can smack him around onto a platform for even more molestation by fox. Both dreamland and Hyrule have these platforms and the **** house so Fox really doesn't have to work his *** off to combo well. Just cuz Fox in Melee takes the most technical skill doesn't mean he has the disadvantage against Shiek (sorry Melee haters)

You can also be lame and do many up-tilts while walking to compensate for slight horizontal movement

or in hyrule **** tent you have a rather easy 0 to death on mario (so does Mario, sorta). Fox also can be really lame and abuse ledge invincibility to keep Mario off with throws and stuff.

If you "shove" him off with a forward-air hit at a lower percentage, you can reflector Mario to send him down. Mario is then forced to recover awkwardly onto the stage without fireball support where he then is subject to further foots up the butt. If Mario tries to down-b you can reflector him again

If you are on the middle area on Hyrule or Dreamland stage, Mario simply can't run fast enough to tech chase him if Fox rolls away (and there's space to roll).

And to be honest, Fox doesn't really need his drill to combo most characters anyways unless they cannot DI.

Fox's recovery has also a really big misconception as a terrible recovery (kind ofbad but not **** like Falcon's). If you recover high you have enough horizontal movement to juke effectively and live.

The factors against Fox:

Mario's recovery is better but still punishable

He is bound to get ***** if he is thrown off stage or gets into an down air- up air set up to perfect up-airs to up -smash. It's actually impossible to escape down-air to up-air with Di since the 10 slow hits let Mario players follow the players DI or stun lock most for the Mario to simply turn around and grab or whatever since Mario's down air ends rather late for the other player to respond (especially with Falcon)

Basically I am saying a horrible mistake by the Fox player whether it is lag induced or by their own mistake leads to problems for Fox players. We are assuming higher level play however, where experienced Fox players do not simply jump into their doom (often).


It's a big baiting game between Fox and Mario. Mario can park himself next to the ledge, duck lasers, dash dance, but Fox has the tools necessary to take out Mario players who do this (and anything). A mario player who tries to approach is already put in a disadvantage since Fox can manuever decently as well.

+ for Fox against Mario. Just a small advantage that good mario players can overcome if they are better than the Fox player.

If you play online, you'll find that Fox gets worse exponentially with Delay, making Fox make much more mistakes and get owned. If this was a matchup thread based on online, I would place Fox as = or - against Mario.

My experiences against talented Mario players in RL, however, tell me otherwise
--

Luigi is a crappier version of Mario. His higher short-hop in comparison to Mario lets anybody get out of his down-air to up-air combo unless Luigi does this move late into the short-hop.

Luigi is slower, slippery, and fireballs, while still useful in certain times, are worse than Mario's and thus lack even more use.

Fox molests Luigi even more so than Mario for these reasons. There is still some gimp risk of course but Fox nevertheless has an easier time against Luigi since he is basically a weaker, slower mario. His "better-version" of moves don't make up for his slowness.

Fox ++ over Luigi

Fox vs Ness

Ness has trouble approaching like crazy. Any decent player can also read his double-jump speed up aerial also. Ness has better priority aerials but they don't mean much if they cannot hit. Ness is gimped very easily also. You'd think his down-b could be used to stop the tide of lasers but down-b has a slight start up and cancel which Fox players can abuse.

Fox has great combos on Ness, great gimp game like the rest of the cast on Ness, lasers, speed, etc.

Fox's jab can tie with every up-tilt in the game except Kirby's and maybe (DK ? ). Thus, if Ness is an up-tilt *****, you can either trick him by doing an aerial but not making contact before moving in with up-air, throw, etc or simply jab his up-tilt. Fox's recovery time is slightly faster and in 90% of cases, most Ness players won't expect it and/or won't react fast enough for your punishment.

Ness players really rely on the mistakes of Fox to get hit by up-tilt, up-air, down-air to get their combo flow going. Fox simply can't jump onto Ness with an aerial and expect good results. A throw off the stage is often death for Fox as well.

Fox + over Ness.
 

Cryptic C62

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
61
In terms of edgeguarding/recovery, I think Ness has a slight advantage over Fox. When Ness is trying to spike Fox, his floaty jump, long dair animation, and high priority work wonders against Fox's Up+B. Also, regardless of which direction Fox goes (straight to ledge, up onto the stage or a platform), if Ness guesses wrong, he has time to try for another spike and still be able to easily make it back with either his second jump (if he kept it) or his 9000m Up+B.

On the other hand, Fox's lasers move quickly enough that, if shot accurately, can mess up Ness's Up+B attempts if he stays above the height of the stage. This forces ness to drop down and come up to the stage from below. Unless Ness sweet spots really nicely, Fox can just dsmash or, if Ness starts close enough the ledge, let him go by and start up an aerial combo. In the first case, good DI helps, in the second case, try for mindgames with a fastfall, I guess. :)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Hard yes, Impossible yes...wait i mean no..no its not!

Smart fireball spam and DUCKING is tricky to work around too
If a mario is approaching with fireballs and you are getting up from the ground, jab a fireball and run the hell away, or you can get hit but use hax DI in the other direction, or reflector

it works


--

I assume both Fox and Mario to be both good and around the same level and I'm just saying Fox would win more cause of his advantages. Out of 10 matches between skilled but equal players I'd say Fox would win about 6 or 7 times out of 10
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
I assume both Fox and Mario to be both good and around the same level and I'm just saying Fox would win more cause of his advantages. Out of 10 matches between skilled but equal players I'd say Fox would win about 6 or 7 times out of 10
^ this sums up my position.

because both characters can combo each other to death and etc. it comes down to, again, approach/space control/maneuverability/whatever you want to call it, and in the absence of either character having a move like kirby's uptilt or pikachu's uair, the fact that fox is way faster and that he has lasers means that he has it.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
Fox will have a far harder time killing mario, Drills can be DI'd out of easily, while once mario gets a simple combo -->Grab....if mario throws fox off the stage its going to get very complicated for fox

Plus even using a quick Dsmash on fox when he is at mid %s will put him off the edge in most situations (ALL situations if you're playing on DL)
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
Fox vs Mario is a pretty even matchup imo... at least if you play mario, I think fox is an average opponent, not harder or easier to beat than most of others. As said, mario can combo fox better but fox is faster and has the reflector against fireballs, and also dies easier than mario.
 

Superstar

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
Miami, Florida
Mario's grabs are average, what he has are many ways to set them up and many ways to follow them. DSmash is similar. Fair leads to both at low percents, as does dair, even uair [dair->uair as well if you wanted]. Fireballs help, but...I dunno about that. Shine, or...jab and run away...yeh.

Probably is stage dependant. I can't see Mario doing well on Hyrule. On DL it might be closer to even, maybe slight advantage Mario. Overall between the two, methinks Fox might have overall advantage. = to + Fox, personally.

Fox can combo **** Mario too you know. Probably better than Mario. Mario just has edgeguard ****.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Fox's combos aren't based around drills

It's about keeping any character above you using up-tilts, up-airs, and using reversed back-air so you barely tap them to keep them within comboing distance


If you are like 80% of fox players who do d-air to up-tilt repeatedly you once again have no creativity and/or suck.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
I find chained Fairs to be really easy on Mario with relatively flat ground, and Fair --> running UpSmash works as a good finisher
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
Ok from what you guys are saying,

Fox vs Mario on Hyrule is + for Fox
Fox vs Mario on DreamLand is + for Mario

This should be even

I do agree fox has decent combos on a bigger stage (with a ledge on both sides) but on Dream Land those combos are cut right down the middle...you'r not going to get 3 Fairs or Bairs -->Usmash on Dreamland...not unless your foe DIs into you
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Ok from what you guys are saying,

Fox vs Mario on Hyrule is + for Fox
Fox vs Mario on DreamLand is + for Mario

This should be even

I do agree fox has decent combos on a bigger stage (with a ledge on both sides) but on Dream Land those combos are cut right down the middle...you'r not going to get 3 Fairs or Bairs -->Usmash on Dreamland...not unless your foe DIs into you
Sure but you will get 3 fairs into offstage fair nair or bairs into offstage double bair

which is definitely enough to get mario into a position where you can edgeguard him
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
To me Fox still has advantage on Dreamland, just not as much as Hyrule

I don't think his comboing ability is hurt at all since those 3 platforms let him link more move together to death

Fox's most effective combos are based simply on hitting the opponent into the air using up-tilt or up-air and using the hits from f-air, b-air (both strong and weak version of both) to keep them within smacking distance. The platforms on this stage allow you to chase Mario more effectively in the air and usually get at least 60-90 percent damage or a kill done if you get Mario into a tumble animation. You could argue that Fox combos better here than the middle part of Hyrule.

Mario gimps Fox better here, but Fox gimps too by a f-air shove off to reflector, turn-around while reflectoring and grab the edge. The timing should give you enough ledge invincibility so that if Mario mario tornados, you shouldn't get hit and you just reflector him as soon as the move is done, or if he up-b's onto stage, use Mario's landing lag to get on the stage, use short hop up-airs or throw him off.

Laserwise, you can double laser onto the 2 side platforms, run off a platform and turn around shoot laser. Keepaway isn't as good on this stage but lasers still encourage mario players to play more offensively where you can then manipulate them to their deaths.
 

Superstar

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
Miami, Florida
That's why you use Tornado far away from the stage. Won't work well against Pika but works well against Fox.

On the flipside, on Dreamland Mario combos much better, allowing him to get more uairs off, and still finish with fair, bair, nair, or possibly a usmash. While Fox combos better in Dreamland, Mario combos MUCH better in Dreamland.

I still think it's +Fox, but I still like to give Mario some credit.
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
That's why you use Tornado far away from the stage. Won't work well against Pika but works well against Fox.

On the flipside, on Dreamland Mario combos much better, allowing him to get more uairs off, and still finish with fair, bair, nair, or possibly a usmash. While Fox combos better in Dreamland, Mario combos MUCH better in Dreamland.

I still think it's +Fox, but I still like to give Mario some credit.
I give mario plenty of credit - he can really **** fox zero to death with the correct first hit, especially on dreamland

he can be tough to edgeguard sometimes but fox can abuse ledge invincibility and his ability to go far offstage with a bair enough that he can edgeguard mario pretty well. His bair trades hits at least with up b.

glad you agree with + for fox v mario though

any thoughts on fox v ness or luigi, anyone? I mean I think it's consensus that fox beats both, but by how much? I'm inclined to think it's by a large amount, but I guess I'm always biased towards the top tiers in these discussions.
 

Superstar

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
Miami, Florida
Fox beats Ness better than he does Mario. I still don't think it's major major advantage, personally plus. Lasers are too freaking annoying for a defensive character with at least some height to him, and although Ness can **** Fox's recovery, Fox sets it up much easier.

They combo the other equally well.

Luigi I can conceed ++. Think of Mario with a worse approach, and can't at least "counterspam" too well. Already stated why by jointz.
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
Fox beats Ness better than he does Mario
disagreed. Ness can combo Fox better than mario, plus he has a hard time edgeguarding Mario due to his much better recovery and his spike can be neutralized a lot of times with mario's up+b
 

Superstar

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
Miami, Florida
Why did you disagree with me, yet in the end agree that Fox has a hard time edgeguarding Mario?

That's one of the reasons WHY I say Fox ***** Ness better than Fox ***** Mario. Fox sets up those edgeguards very well, grabs, combos, even shines. And lasers **** Ness, absolutely **** him. Ness is a defensive char, and those lasers are evil. You can't cancel them, and while Mario can maybe counter spam laser abuse, Ness can't. Lasers shut down Ness' game more than Mario's, probably Ness' combo ability is why I say it's not ++.
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
I dont have time to write pages about why mario is better, i guess i lose :|


Ill play any of yous with mario vs fox and after 29834729387 matches THEN say fox is better in this situation...i bet you wont
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I dont have time to write pages about why mario is better, i guess i lose :|


Ill play any of yous with mario vs fox and after 29834729387 matches THEN say fox is better in this situation...i bet you wont
i'd prove it to you if there wasn't 4 frames of delay
 

Fireblaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
Location
Storrs, Connecticut
No no no no he's right. Fox is the only character that suffers by 1000 times when there's delay. It's not like other characters suffer from delay online too. It is impossible for Mario to suffer from delay.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
No no no no he's right. Fox is the only character that suffers by 1000 times when there's delay. It's not like other characters suffer from delay online too. It is impossible for Mario to suffer from delay.
I'm not sure why you say this comment in such a strange, facetious way.


this matchup thread isn't about how characters perform online where lag and stuff happens. I'm just saying people tend to base this matchup off of online matches where there is frame delay. They haven't faced Fox in real life simply because they don't have real life friends (that play smash in a decent level)

Fox needs the most precise key presses compared to any other character in the cast. Especially Mario. Delay causes more mistakes in characters that require more precision compared to non complex characters like Falcon or Kirby and that alone makes him ****tier than Falcon online. In real life, I'd say Fox has the slight edge.

Any reasonable person (not you) will tell you that Fox gets hurt more than Mario online. Maybe you should ask your leader Boomfan for insight before posting.

oh and by the way, play for fun, there's no fun in being a lame-o
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
True, Characters like Fox and Falcon are unplayable in high delay, but characters like mario, luigi, samus or dk arent that much affected by the delay.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
Im maining fox online atm and even on p2p with 2 frames delay on mupen I just cant play like I do on console with fox (extremely well)

Falcon IMO suffers the least from delay because of how simple the inputs for his combos are versus how fast he is in-game and his easy, easy, easssssy kill setups.

I still cant really compete online with fox or link or anyone but falcon really but to change that Im practicing only fox and link right now to get used to the delay lol.

Falconnnnn..... *laglaglaglag* punch!!!
 
Top Bottom