attempt at matchup thread

[Mew2King]

fox counters kirby, kirby counters falcon

in my experience

 

[Lawrencelot]

fox counters kirby, kirby counters falcon

in my experience

100% true.

 

[MattNF]

fox counters kirby, kirby counters falcon

in my experience

what the fack

 

[Surri-Sama]

fox counters kirby, kirby counters falcon

in my experience

This is correct...but wth o.o;;


P2P?

 

[Superstar]

Correct but already established. XD

Ah well. And lol Matt and Surri.

And Dylan, to be fair, when I play you, you do lag a bit. I dunno if it's my end or yours, but when I play you I usually lag more. Probably it's your computer, mind telling me the specs by PM or IM [or IM me so I can tell you how to get them].

 

[Dajayman]

Ness is overrated but not by much. As a Ness main I think he should be top mid tier, below Fox and Falcon. He shouldn't be any lower than that.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ness is overrated but not by much. As a Ness main I think he should be top mid tier, below Fox and Falcon. He shouldn't be any lower than that.

This explains the Fox vs Ness matchup perfectly!

Ok, sarcasm aside... we seem to be sidetracking from the three matchups...

Fox vs Luigi
Fox vs Mario
Fox vs Ness

And no, THIS IS NOT A TIER LIST DISCUSSION.

 

[Winston]

This explains the Fox vs Ness matchup perfectly!

Ok, sarcasm aside... we seem to be sidetracking from the three matchups...

Fox vs Luigi
Fox vs Mario
Fox vs Ness

And no, THIS IS NOT A TIER LIST DISCUSSION.

lol well there isn't really much to discuss as far as Fox vs Luigi or Fox vs Ness goes, Fox does super well against both of them. I guess there could be debate as to whether Fox vs Ness deserves + or ++, but mostly the problem is...

there are two camps for Fox vs Mario and we're in the "both sides fail to be convinced" scenario

I'm sort of just waiting a bit longer before semi-arbitrarily deciding to move it along again, it should be sometime soon, I doubt much more progress will be made

 

[Dajayman]

I don't see projectile camping to be that big of a deal, especially with Fox. There are no stages like FD and you can avoid laser camping in any stage. Anyone care to enlighten me on this if I'm wrong?

Ness juggles Fox well with djc uairs and utilts, utilt beats all of Fox's aerials, and Ness gimps Fox's bad recovery easily. Fox outranges Ness, can laser him, usmash kills Ness pretty early, and gimps Ness's bad recovery well. I'd say it's 40:60 Fox advantage.

 

[Superstar]

I agree cept for lasers. While Mario can avoid the lasers to some extent, Ness' approach is piss. He eats the lasers.

Outrange, I dunno though. Maybe, probably certain stuff that decide the matchup do outrange, dunno. But utilt does have a bit of lag to it, so I prefer DJC uair, usually.

 

[Deleted member]

fox counters kirby, kirby counters falcon

in my experience

can you expand on fox> kirby?

not my most knowledgeable matchup but something seems really wrong with this

 

[Winston]

can you expand on kirby > fox?


not my most knowledgeable matchup but something seems really wrong with this

errr didn't he just say fox > kirby?

 

[Skrlx]

yeah he did say fox > kirby

and to my matchup experience i agree
however, if fox does something wrong he WILL get PUNISHED if the kirby is good

 

[Deleted member]

every character's mistakes results in punishment if the other person is good

super smash brothers is a game of mistakes, otherwise no kills would be made

 

[Winston]

every character's mistakes results in punishment if the other person is good

super smash brothers is a game of mistakes, otherwise no kills would be made

well there are rare cases where some characters can't punish all too well (samus comes to mind)

and there are some matchups where it's easier to make a lethal mistake than others

but in general yeah, that's sort of a vacuous statement (x character can punish y character's mistakes)

 

[Surri-Sama]

Fox players lose to Kirby players only because they get overwhelmed (recklessly jumping into utilt doesn’t help either) if you pressure Kirby with lasers and SH attacks you should be able to pressure kirby into bad situations. Of course it goes without saying…don’t go off the edge with fox…especially vs Kirby…you ..willl…FAIL!

 

[Blue Yoshi]

If the Kirby resorts to turning away from Fox and up-tilting, one lazer makes Kirby face you, meaning the hitbox is on the wrong side of kirby. Also, if the kirby just stays still, waiting for fox to approach, fox can just fire his lazorz. If Fox waits for an opening, this match should be in fox's favour. If fox plays agressively and goes all out against kirby... u-tilt.

Then again, I don't know fox. I'm the kirby in this matchup, and I always lose to good foxes.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby vs Fox is equal


If you are having problems with Fox turning you around with lasers, just duck them before you up-tilt rather than spam infinite up-tilts. You can also turn around after you get hit. A simple smack on Fox's shield guarantees a Kirby's combo -broken shield to up-tilts. Better kirby players can 0 to (near)death using a small amount of up-tilts to f-air drill (without the knockaway) to other stuff

Kirby out-prioritizes Fox in nearly everything. Although Fox can jab Pika and Ness's up-tilt and clank and quickly counter-attack, you can't clank Kirbys uptilt. Fox will jab Kirby's raised foot/leg and get engulfed into the leg smacks of Kirby. It has smash attack priority and to me is probably the most "broken" move in the game. I'm not sure of this but I think if Fox and Kirby clank attacks, Kirby recovers faster as well.

Fox has to rely on lasers and superior movement to control the flow of the game. It's a heavy spacing battle between the two where Fox has to wait for openings before diving in but a simple mistake leads to the death of Fox very easily. Kirby is also small and harder to hit. You'd be surprised when a missed L-cancel on his drill makes him invincible to grabs, a "reward" for messing up. His duck, both holding down and missing a drill L-cancel, literally turns him into a part of the floor so that it's impossible to hit him with a laser from a short hop.

It's not a battle where neither Fox nor Kirby has the advantage, whoever is more skilled in their spacing and mindgames will come out on top (not online).

Fox's chances are better against Kirby in Hyrule, but it's harder in Dreamland and almost every other stage due to lack of space. Kirby has a lot more offensive chances and if he doesn't whiff and get counter-attacked, he will get lots of more hits.

Both have great, deadly combos on each other, Fox's recovery is only decent if he is recovering high over the stage, you can say the same for Kirby's as well. Both are also great gimpers against each other.

So basically, it's sort of like Ness vs Fox where Ness has priority and Fox has control and speed, yet Kirby is faster, stronger, and more versatile than Ness. Therefore, he has less holes in his game and has at least an even chance against Fox. I personally believe Kirby has the slight advantage but maybe even is good for now.

And losing to Good foxes doesn't bear much meaning to the matchup as a whole, every matchup is beatable in this game especially if the other person is more skilled

yes i think mew2king's wrong

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ok I don't play kirby by mashing up-tilt... I was just giving advice to the person who has trouble against kirby. Most people who have troubles against kirbys have troubles with the up-tilt. And I don't have problems with the lazers turning me around, I have problems with the lazers. I just lose because I get overwhelmed.

Since fox can just lazer camp, kirby can't just stand still and wait for fox to come to him, like he can against falcon or another non-projectile character. I just don't know what to do, which results in me failing.

I agree it should be equal Fox vs Kirby. The winner is the player who plays smarter, or the player who knows the matchup the best.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I find it funny that in the mario vs fox debate, it was said that there are combos that can connect on a mid weight, yet vs a light weight (which is easier for fox to combo) they dont exist o.o;; (this is about dreamland btw)

 

[Winston]

Okay so now that we've reestablished the conclusion that we arrived at previously (fox vs kirby is mostly even), Fox vs Mario turned into some weird argument about delay, and it seems that nobody really disputes that Fox > Ness or Fox >> Luigi, we're moving on I guess

Entered:

Fox vs Luigi: ++
Fox vs Mario: +
Fox vs Ness: +

Next up:

Fox vs Pikachu
Fox vs Samus
Fox vs Yoshi

My thoughts:

Fox has problems with Pikachu's upair. Pikachu can't really combo on a whim like Falcon can, but between techchases, grabs near the edge, box/terrain combos and etc. to go with his actual uair combos, he can punish Fox extremely well. The edge game is asymmetrical, with Pikachu having basically the best gimping ability and the best recovery in the game. Off the edge = dead holds pretty well for Fox in this matchup. Finally, the margin of error for Pikachu is more lenient, with his ability to up b out of pseudocombos from Fox.

basically Pikachu vs Fox is +, I guess I typed a paragraph to say what you guys already know

Fox vs Samus seems like a complete joke; it seems like Fox can just have his way with her in terms of combos, edgeguarding, lasers, approaches, whatever. Fox vs Samus is ++

Fox vs Yoshi is pretty close. Combos, often zero to death, go both ways pretty easily here, though Fox does a better job on Hyrule. Yoshi is capable of gimping Fox, but really, who can't. Fox has a pretty good edgeguard on Yoshi starting at mid-high percent which is just upsmashing as they fly past the edge if they recover low or bair after the jump is finished if they recover high. And of course there is the issue of lasers, which I think push Fox over the top yet another time. Fox's game on Yoshi from neutral positions is pretty abusive, though all bets are off if Yoshi actually does manage to land that first hit.

Fox vs Yoshi is + ... I think. We ended up giving Falcon a + vs Yoshi so I think Fox can get one here too.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Pikachu can combo everyone with no trouble, except Samus, theres a little trouble there...but not much


Falcon got a + give fox one too.............LOL too good winston xP

 

[Dajayman]

Everyone knows Fox is a clone of Captain Falcon, lmao.

 

[Winston]

Wow screw you guys ><

You know what I meant... I think Fox's game against Yoshi is at least as good as Falcon's, and we decided to give Falcon a +

So what are Pikachu's combo starters on Fox that work anytime then? He has to be in the air and at mid percents for Pikachu to do the tail stuff

 

[Superstar]

I think Usmash works. Usmash usmash at low percents -> tail crap.

I don't play Pika, I'm just guessing.

 

[Winston]

I think Usmash works. Usmash usmash at low percents -> tail crap.

I don't play Pika, I'm just guessing.

That works fine but upsmash isn't a move that you'll be landing all the time.

 

[Kefit]

I think Usmash works. Usmash usmash at low percents -> tail crap.

I don't play Pika, I'm just guessing.

Nah, Fox falls too fast for Pika Usmash chains to work in the uncommon event that Pika manages to land one. In fact, Fox's fast falling speed screws up a lot of Pikachu's "tail crap." He simply hits the ground too quickly for regular Pikachu chase combos to carry him to the edge, where a kill can take place.

Really, Pikachu vs Fox comes down to size of the stage. Pika's got a clear advantage on the edge due to his recovery and gimping ability, although he's not invincible in that regard - Fox's uair is one of the better counters to Pika's upB, either catching him in mid-teleport or right before he lands. But all Pika really has to do is either throw Fox off and edge guard, or pop him into the air at the edge and combo him off, where there won't be a ground for Fox to quickly fall on to.

Pikachu's got trouble on larger stages. Fox can combo Pikachu all day and can finish anywhere in the stage with jab --> usmash or uair, but Pika pretty much needs to carry Fox off the edge to kill him (Pika's Usmash --> downB pretty much never happens outside the **** tent at high percentages, since Pika can't combo into the Usmash at that point). And as I mentioned earlier, Fox's quick falling speed messes with Pika's ability to carry him a meaningful distance.

As far as the Hyrule box goes, Fox probably has a small advantage. He can start the combos against Pika at a wide range of percentages, whereas Pika needs to damage Fox a fair bit to get around his fast falling. Fox also can end with uair in the event that Usmash on the upper ledge doesn't get lined up properly, whereas Pika is restricted to killing with Usmash. Advantage goes to Fox here, but really both **** eachother pretty bad here.

Fox's jab is very deadly against Pikachu. If it's blocked it usually leads to a throw. If it clangs with utilt (the only ground attack Pika regularly uses) then Fox gets a free throw. If it actually hits Pika then it leads into a Usmash death at a ridiculously wide range of percentages. Pika's utilt is one of his most important defensive moves, but against Fox he has to be very careful about using it. And like with Usmash, Fox's falling speed messes up a lot of regular utilt follow-ups.

Fox's laser doesn't mess with Pika much, even on large stages. Pika's got the mobility to get around it, and he is short enough that he can simply run underneath short hopped lasers.

Pika's uair beats out all of Fox's aerials due to its range and disjoint, but uair by itself doesn't accomplish much against Fox since it's very hard to start combos with it. It's mostly a pressuring tool in this matchup, or a mid-combo/gimp move. The rest of the aerials are more evenly matched, and Fox is fast enough to keep up with Pikachu in the aerial spacing game.

In the end, Fox and Pika are fairly evenly matched in the middle of the stage. Pika has the better spacing game, but Fox kills Pika in a wider range of realistic situations than Pika kills Fox. On the edge, however, Pika has a clear advantage in gimping and recovery. Thus the advantage in this match-up is determined by stage size; + for Pikachu on Dreamland, even on Hyrule, + for Pikachu overall since most of the competitive stages are small sized.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, Fox falls too fast for Pika Usmash chains to work in the uncommon event that Pika manages to land one. In fact, Fox's fast falling speed screws up a lot of Pikachu's "tail crap." He simply hits the ground too quickly for regular Pikachu chase combos to carry him to the edge, where a kill can take place.

Really, Pikachu vs Fox comes down to size of the stage. Pika's got a clear advantage on the edge due to his recovery and gimping ability, although he's not invincible in that regard - Fox's uair is one of the better counters to Pika's upB, either catching him in mid-teleport or right before he lands. But all Pika really has to do is either throw Fox off and edge guard, or pop him into the air at the edge and combo him off, where there won't be a ground for Fox to quickly fall on to.

Pikachu's got trouble on larger stages. Fox can combo Pikachu all day and can finish anywhere in the stage with jab --> usmash or uair, but Pika pretty much needs to carry Fox off the edge to kill him (Pika's Usmash --> downB pretty much never happens outside the **** tent at high percentages, since Pika can't combo into the Usmash at that point). And as I mentioned earlier, Fox's quick falling speed messes with Pika's ability to carry him a meaningful distance.

As far as the Hyrule box goes, Fox probably has a small advantage. He can start the combos against Pika at a wide range of percentages, whereas Pika needs to damage Fox a fair bit to get around his fast falling. Fox also can end with uair in the event that Usmash on the upper ledge doesn't get lined up properly, whereas Pika is restricted to killing with Usmash. Advantage goes to Fox here, but really both **** eachother pretty bad here.

Fox's jab is very deadly against Pikachu. If it's blocked it usually leads to a throw. If it clangs with utilt (the only ground attack Pika regularly uses) then Fox gets a free throw. If it actually hits Pika then it leads into a Usmash death at a ridiculously wide range of percentages. Pika's utilt is one of his most important defensive moves, but against Fox he has to be very careful about using it. And like with Usmash, Fox's falling speed messes up a lot of regular utilt follow-ups.

Fox's laser doesn't mess with Pika much, even on large stages. Pika's got the mobility to get around it, and he is short enough that he can simply run underneath short hopped lasers.

Pika's uair beats out all of Fox's aerials due to its range and disjoint, but uair by itself doesn't accomplish much against Fox since it's very hard to start combos with it. It's mostly a pressuring tool in this matchup, or a mid-combo/gimp move. The rest of the aerials are more evenly matched, and Fox is fast enough to keep up with Pikachu in the aerial spacing game.

In the end, Fox and Pika are fairly evenly matched in the middle of the stage. Pika has the better spacing game, but Fox kills Pika in a wider range of realistic situations than Pika kills Fox. On the edge, however, Pika has a clear advantage in gimping and recovery. Thus the advantage in this match-up is determined by stage size; + for Pikachu on Dreamland, even on Hyrule, + for Pikachu overall since most of the competitive stages are small sized.

I approve, especially the jab vs up-tilt part, probably my favorite part of the matchup. Although Fox landing quickly from up-tilts only works at 0-25~ percent. If Fox DI's a bit, walk a little bit in between before more up-tilts. Then start the up-air wheel of pain, although I know you already know this.

Definitely a matchup of patience


---

Fox vs Yoshi

+ for Fox.

This is clearly an advantage on Fox's side. Fox has more mobility, same combo ability of ******, Fox has containment/control with lasers and on Yoshi's big size, this matters a lot compared to Kirby/ Pika. Fox also outprioritizes Yoshi's aerials for the most part, some are ties.

Yoshi has a better recovery, yet like Fox, has a better chance of living if he requires high. Recovering low leads to risk of getting grabbed, hit hard by a smash attack, and if the Yoshi is greedy, can get hit out of their jump into their deaths. Nevertheless, Yoshi wins here, sorta.

Yoshi has to rely mostly on cute tricks to make life easier such as the shield parry, abuse of super armor to take hits and counter-attack. It just seems to me that great Fox players will make it very difficult to get stuck into a combo while Yoshi players will undoubtedly get engulfed much more easily into the **** train.

 

[MattNF]

Also, Fox can cancel yoshi's double jump with a short hopped uair at low percents.

 

[malva00]

lol at n00bs "establishing" who beats who

 

[Fireblaster]

lol at n00bs "establishing" who beats who

We don't listen to people that lose to MATTS!

PWNED

 

[Winston]

It's really kind of a shame that Isai decided to randomly own this thread

because we had been making some decent progress

 

[Fireblaster]

It's really kind of a shame that Isai decided to randomly own this thread

because we had been making some decent progress

This thread was owning itself way before Isai showed up.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Can we go on to the next matchup also...regardless of what happened

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Agreed. We should finish this, since it's been long overdue, and we've come this far.

 

[Surri-Sama]

yes a good match-up thread is long over due....and will continue to be!

It is funny though that yous blame Malva for ruining the thread (even in joke) considering some of the non-sense going on in here xO

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I don't think it's malva's fault that this halted. I think people just slowly lost interest. If you see who contributed at the beginning, then compare it to who is left, you'll see that there is less people now than there was when we started. Plus, one thing that probably makes people lose interest is that it takes usually one week (sometimes more) just to get three characters done. This isn't Gustav's fault, but lots of people (me included sometimes) sidetrack and just delay the process.

Although having the best player in the world say this is dumb doesn't help, I don't think that's the reason this is slowly failing.

That said, what's the matchups we're doing now? Have we moved on, or are we still on the same three?

 

[Surri-Sama]

Its failing because its a fail thead!

To much bias, not enough rubric!

Oh wait...thats to hard for winston...i mean everyone? O_o

 

[Fireblaster]

I don't think it's malva's fault that this halted. I think people just slowly lost interest. If you see who contributed at the beginning, then compare it to who is left, you'll see that there is less people now than there was when we started. Plus, one thing that probably makes people lose interest is that it takes usually one week (sometimes more) just to get three characters done. This isn't Gustav's fault, but lots of people (me included sometimes) sidetrack and just delay the process.

Although having the best player in the world say this is dumb doesn't help, I don't think that's the reason this is slowly failing.

That said, what's the matchups we're doing now? Have we moved on, or are we still on the same three?

This thread was on the way to failing as soon as you all decided to play theoryfighter and made it so that the longest opinion wins.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

The 64 smash community is too small to have an actual discussion like this, so that's fail right there. I agree this thread was destined to fail or suffer, but that doesn't mean we still can't try to finish it. No, it may not be completely right, but at least we have a somewhat accurate matchup chart.

Edit: We can always change the results later if they're wrong.