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attempt at matchup thread

Surri-Sama

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It sounds pretty awesome but I don't think we have the same luxury of getting "players deemed by the community to be experts in their character and of approximately equal skill level" =\
If we tried, the "experts" would just look upon as egoists in these boards, which is a shame, because other wise we actually could have say...some char specific tourneys between even 6-8 people who are known as "good" by everyone, or at least the rational half of the community.

And yes i know, pitting same char vs same char does NOT show who is the best with that char, but with a community so small its hard to get serious data on players (plus online is inconsistent) so its the best we would be able to do for now xO

But i dont think that idea would fan out x(
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Well, finding a top few people for a character may be a little difficult, but with the size of the community, it's not like trying to find the best 5 melee foxes out of 1000 competitive foxes, it's more like the top x pikas of maybe 5 or 6 competitive pikas (that play online). Also, as I said in my last post, it should be more than one person representing the characters, or Falcon would have a major advantage over everyone (unless Isai decides to join... then he'd decide the character matchups). This way, we will more than likely end up with even-skilled matchups.
 

Winston

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Well, finding a top few people for a character may be a little difficult, but with the size of the community, it's not like trying to find the best 5 melee foxes out of 1000 competitive foxes, it's more like the top x pikas of maybe 5 or 6 competitive pikas (that play online). Also, as I said in my last post, it should be more than one person representing the characters, or Falcon would have a major advantage over everyone (unless Isai decides to join... then he'd decide the character matchups). This way, we will more than likely end up with even-skilled matchups.
For the Falcon bit, you are referring to Boomfan, right?

Even if we had 5 people for each character a player like Boomfan would still skew the data...

Also this would have to be an online tournament so some people would probably have issue with the results... >.>
 

Kefit

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Is it feasible to get together top players who all can get 2-3 frames with each other? There are a lot of west coast players, so this might be possible. That way the delay won't skew the results TOO much.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I said top 5 or 6 from each character, so that if someone destroys everyone with a given character (boom with Falcon, for example), and the other four people have more or less similar results, then we can eliminate the best and worst result, and use the middle 4 for the matchup results. Kind-of like judges in the olympics. Everyone votes up to 10, but the top and bottom are removed. If three or four people **** everyone with a given character, then that's enough to say that the character has a major advantage. I just thought I'd suggest it, since it takes into account more than just the best person with a given character.
 

The Star King

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Popularity may skew the results also, as more people practice with a character it is more likely there is a great player for that character. Kirby's a great character, but most people hate him, and don't play/practice with him.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
People do play Kirby, though they avoid it when they can. I'm sure at least a quarter of the smash community has Kirby as a secondary... or can at least play well enough with Kirby. Just because you never see a Kirby doesn't mean no one is good with Kirby. Yes, Kirby would probably be better if more people used him, but that doesn't mean people aren't good with him.
 

Dajayman

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The only good Kirby main that I know of is Matts!. Nobody really takes him seriously, he is pretty easy to learn. Most noobs who use Kirby are very easy to read, their favorite moves being dair and fsmash.
 

Wenbobular

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A competent player can pick up Kirby and learn how to space and do funny Kirby things in like, 5 matches tops.
 

Surri-Sama

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It was an old event JaimeHR used to host where, theres a group for each char in this game, and the person who does best in each group gets the "belt" which was used to "show" who had the "best" of each char.

Example. FireBlaster is currently our Mario belt holder. People would challenge him to try and take his mario belt in a best 3/5 match, Mario dittos! If they win, FireBlaster Forfeits the belt, but if he wins, he gets a +1 rank for defending the belt ^_^

One of my all time fav ideas personally
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Falcon gets unlocked on planet zebes, and ness gets unlocked on dreamland. Should we use those stages for those characters? It would make it much simpler.

And what happens with these points? What does it do to the belt holder?
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Slippi.gg
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So far:

DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Jiggs: ++
DK vs Kirby: --
DK vs Link: =
DK vs Luigi: -
DK vs Samus: +
DK vs Yoshi: -
Falcon vs Fox: =
Falcon vs Link +
Falcon vs Jiggs =
Falcon vs Kirby -
Falcon vs Luigi: +
Falcon vs Mario: -
Falcon vs Ness: =
Falcon vs Pikachu: -
Falcon vs Samus: ++
Falcon vs Yoshi: +
Fox vs Jiggs: ++
Fox vs Kirby: =
Fox vs Link: ++
Fox vs Luigi: ++
Fox vs Mario: +
Fox vs Ness: +
Fox vs Pikachu: -
Fox vs Samus: ++
Fox vs Yoshi: +
 

Dr_Strangelove

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I seriously think that you guys are under-estimating jigglypuff.
I honestly think that she is roughly even against pikachu. Yes she is killed at low percent, but she also has a ridiculously cheap and easy 0-kill combo on pikachu.

D-air -> F-throw -> U-air -> U-air -> Rest.

Am I missing something here, or have I just not played any decent pikachu players? D:


Also, fox is one of the easiest characters to combo, seems to fall at the perfect height for everything.
Fox's matchups are only favourable if you don't get hit, or knocked off the edge. :p
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I seriously think that you guys are under-estimating jigglypuff.
I honestly think that she is roughly even against pikachu. Yes she is killed at low percent, but she also has a ridiculously cheap and easy 0-kill combo on pikachu.

D-air -> F-throw -> U-air -> U-air -> Rest.

Am I missing something here, or have I just not played any decent pikachu players? D:


Also, fox is one of the easiest characters to combo, seems to fall at the perfect height for everything.
Fox's matchups are only favourable if you don't get hit, or knocked off the edge. :p
You've got it right, and you're missing something. This is why I suggested we test the puff matchups. Puff has many 0-deaths, which are a huge advantage. But puff's range is soo poor that it is hard to start them (usually), being a huge disadvantage. Since most people have rarely played puffs, as there are not many puff 64 mains, these matchups are relatively unknown. Some matchups are obveous (vs fox and luigi, for example), but others are not.

In terms of the Pika matchup, Pika completely out-ranges Puff. That said, Puff can't approach Pika, or puff will get destroyed. On the flip side, one mistake by pika (missed up-air, etc.) can result in the loss of a stock. Technically, Pika can approach, but as said, one mistake, and good bye.

In terms of combos, Pika can combo puff relatively well, and can kill puff at lower percents. Puff can also combo pika very easily, and can 0-death pika relatively easily. If puff messes up her timing, and Pika has even one frame of non-hitstun, Pika can use up-B to avoid any attack from puff. This can be very useful, since if pika manages to do this as puff is resting, puff misses rest, and pika gets to start his own combos or even just kill puff, depending on the percentages.

In terms of edgeguarding, Pika has an easier time edgeguarding puff than puff on pika. Puff's recovery is fairly predictable, and with continuous hits from pika, puff will exhaust her jumps, and pound will not be enough to bring her back. When puff is edgeguarding Pika, it's basically a guessing game. Pika can go for the ledge or go for the stage. If pika goes for the ledge, D-smash will send him right back off the stage. If pika goes for the stage, he has enough stun for puff to start a combo to death. If puff guesses right, it's usually the end of the stock for pika, and if puff guesses wrong, pika survives.

Overall, though, this is a campy match, where both sides play a "don't get hit" game. This match, unlike most matches, doesn't come down to combo ability, edgeguarding, or anything that would normally determine a matchup result. This matchup, in my opinion, comes down to the mindgames of both characters. Due to the "don't get hit" nature of this matchup, both will have to try to mindgame each other to get that hit on the opponent. Once they get that hit, it will result in lots of damage, or even the loss of a stock. That said, pika usually has an easier time getting that first hit due to his range, meaning he will likely be the one getting that first hit. Also, being predictable will give you an instant loss in this matchup. You should always make your opponent guess what you're going to do, or expect to be mind-gamed into a JD 6-stock (you know what I mean).

In terms of matchup advantage, I would say that Pika would have the advantage in this due to his range and priority, but it would be a slight advantage (i.e. + for pika).

I personally like this matchup as a puff player, as it forces both of us to play a perfect game, and any mistake will be deadly. Either I have not played a very good Pika yet, or this matchup isn't as impossible as people make it out to be. I did a ladder match against Kefit's Pika, and he won 2-1, but every single game came down to last stock, high percentage, virtually next hit wins. Being a ladder match, we both tried our hardest. It was a very even match, and neither one of us made many mistakes at all.


In terms of fox, he's too fast, his lazers hurt, forcing you to approach, and his Bair is perfect for edgeguarding. All his attacks out-range puff. Even if he is one of the easier characters to combo, you will never hit a good fox.
 

Dr_Strangelove

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 21, 2009
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London
So far:

DK vs Fox: -
DK vs Falcon: -
DK vs Jiggs: ++
DK vs Kirby: --
DK vs Link: =
DK vs Luigi: -
DK vs Samus: +
DK vs Yoshi: -
Falcon vs Fox: =
Falcon vs Link +
Falcon vs Jiggs =
Falcon vs Kirby -
Falcon vs Luigi: +
Falcon vs Mario: -
Falcon vs Ness: =
Falcon vs Pikachu: -
Falcon vs Samus: ++
Falcon vs Yoshi: +
Fox vs Jiggs: ++
Fox vs Kirby: =
Fox vs Link: ++
Fox vs Luigi: ++
Fox vs Mario: +
Fox vs Ness: +
Fox vs Pikachu: -
Fox vs Samus: ++
Fox vs Yoshi: +
Hmm, I also don't agree with the Fox vs Ness one.
Fox cannot laserspam ness because of ness's down-b.
Also, ness has amazingly good vertical combo ability, or juggling as I've seen you guys call it.
That paired with the fact that fox is a fast faller spells disaster for our furry friend.
Plus ness is **** at edgeguarding.
 

Superstar

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Fox cannot laserspam ness because of ness's down-b.
Fox's laser has no ending lag when he lags. If Ness downBs he can kiss his stock goodbye [Fox takes advantage of DownB lag].

Plus ness is **** at edgeguarding.
So is Fox.

And Fox combos Ness equal or better than Ness combos him.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
If ness uses down-B, the cool-down lag is soo long that fox can start any combo he wishes, resulting in high damage or even a death. So that said, down-B is suicide vs fox. This allows Fox to spam lazers at a safe distance, forcing Ness to approach.

Once either one of them is off the stage, it's the end of their stock, as both are dead easy to edgeguard. So that argument goes both ways.

In terms of comboing, both can combo eachother very well.

In the end, I think the result was due to the lazers overwhelming Ness.

You can always go back to that specific part of the thread and read our reasons there, as that will give you the real reason why that was the result we decided on.
 
D

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If ness uses down-B, the cool-down lag is soo long that fox can start any combo he wishes, resulting in high damage or even a death. So that said, down-B is suicide vs fox. This allows Fox to spam lazers at a safe distance, forcing Ness to approach.

Once either one of them is off the stage, it's the end of their stock, as both are dead easy to edgeguard. So that argument goes both ways.

In terms of comboing, both can combo eachother very well.

In the end, I think the result was due to the lazers overwhelming Ness.

You can always go back to that specific part of the thread and read our reasons there, as that will give you the real reason why that was the result we decided on.

I don't agree in terms of recovery. Fox's recovery is decent if he recovers high since he has high horizontal mobility that you can juke the opponent, especially the average speed Ness (his speed boost double jump's won't really help him here). At the very least, Fox's recovery to me is slightly underrated (but still kinda crappy)

Lasers do mess up Ness pretty bad, Ness simply isn't that good at approaching against a lot of characters. You can trick some people with the double jump cancel speed up but smart players simply space correctly, dash-dance and punish.

Fox's jab clanks with Ness's up-tilt (and recovers faster for counter-attack)

Fox has more overall approach, defensive ability.

Both combo each other well

Fox can play any sort of game, if he plays offensive he has to be more of a offensive counter-attack person who baits Ness into an opening such as an up-tilt etc. Defensive just lazer and if he is mid distance and down-b's like a dummy he will eat a Fox combo.

Ness has to play more defensive and has less openings in comparison. In my opinion he relies on the mistakes of Fox or tricking them but it's not the worst matchup ever for Ness due to his higher priority aerials (especially up-air), up-tilt, and similar gimpability to Fox.

+ for Fox
 

NixxxoN

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Agreed with Smoke... Fox approach is too good against ness because of the lasers and Ness down+b is too slow. Ness is doomed against good foxes, cause ness once he gets hit, he can be easily comboed to deadh due to his low % KO and his good comboability against him.
 

Winston

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Fox cannot laserspam ness because of ness's down-b.
It seems like you definitely haven't played a good fox.

Also guys

we're still "on"

Jiggs vs Kirby
Jiggs vs Link
Jiggs vs Luigi

cause nobody had a whole lot to say here.

Jiggs vs Link seems fairly clearly =, Jiggs vs Luigi I think most can agree to -

Jiggs vs Kirby is up in the air
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Slippi.gg
KORO#668
It seems like you definitely haven't played a good fox.

Also guys

we're still "on"

Jiggs vs Kirby
Jiggs vs Link
Jiggs vs Luigi

cause nobody had a whole lot to say here.

Jiggs vs Link seems fairly clearly =, Jiggs vs Luigi I think most can agree to -

Jiggs vs Kirby is up in the air
id be in favor of -- for vsing Luigi not -

for kirby, just put it as even for now, we are spendign too much time on this
 

The Star King

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I agree with Blue Yoshi's opinions, except I think Kirby has a slight advantage over Jigglypuff, it's too hard to approach. But I would say it's 55-45, so it's still = :/
 

Winston

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Alright guys, whatever

Jiggs vs Kirby entered as =
Jiggs vs Link entered as =
Jiggs vs Luigi entered as --

still open to futher comments whenever but it doesn't look like there are many more

so now:

Jiggs vs Mario
Jiggs v Ness
Jiggs vs Pikachu

Jiggs seems like she'd be fine against Ness and Mario. I would think Mario would have some advantage but I wouldn't really know.

However I am of the strong opinion that Pikachu mauls Jigglypuff.
 

Superstar

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Jiggs v Mario:= or - ?

I don't remember exactly. I think Mario can uair juggle Jiggs at much earlier percents [but hitstun is less if comboed at lower percents over higher percents w/ same knockback...I don't get it but that's what some tests tell me]. Mario outranges Jiggs so the setup isn't too hard, Mario's Dsmash/Usmash hurt, Mario can edgeguard Jiggs easily if she's coming in low. She can combo Mario, but it's a bit more difficult compared to Ness. Harder for her to set it up.

Other than that I don't know.

Jiggs v Ness: +

Jiggs has the aerial mobility to bait Ness, so Ness' priority doesn't seem as big a deal here. Also, Ness' combos tend to be vertically based, Jiggs can't really be combed very well by Ness. On the flipside, she can 0-death Ness in so many ways, the classical rest combos and aerial chains, for example. They can both edgeguard each other fine, not a deal here. If coming high, Jiggs edgeguards Ness better than Ness edgeguard Ness.

One of the few matchups were combo ability completely matters. Depends on viability of Ness fair chains here.



I think Pika beats Jiggs, but I can't say anything about it.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Jiggly vs Mario: -

Exact reasons Superstar said. It's hard for Puff to combo Mario, and the only reliable combo is Dair - Utilt - Rest. Range, projectiles, and strong attacks hurt puff.

Jiggs vs Ness: ++

Ness is by far the easiest to combo. I rarely mess up a death combo once I get one hit. No matter what Ness's percentage is, he can always be comboed to death. Ness can't combo puff really well. Range is not as big a factor in this matchup as compared to most characters.

I consider this puff's easiest matchup.

Puff vs Pika: - or --

It's definitely a Pika advantage, though I don't know how much. I have yet to play a Pika to convince me that it is --.
 

Fireblaster

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Jiggly vs Mario: -
Puff vs Pika: - or --

It's definitely a Pika advantage, though I don't know how much. I have yet to play a Pika to convince me that it is --.
Pika isn't my main, but I'll play you and show you it's --

I'll also play anyone's jiggs with mario to show that it's at least -
 

Cryptic C62

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Aug 14, 2007
Messages
61
In terms of edgeguarding, Pikachu completely destroys Jiggs. Without an Up+B, Jiggly can't come from below, so Pika can just continously go way off the level to whack Jiggs a little further (uair, bair, dair) until she runs out of jumps. Pound can only do so much.

Pikachu has so many options for recovery that he'll always be tricky to edgeguard. The added problem with Jiggly is that without a good spike (her dair isn't nearly as powerful as Kirby's), even if she predicts Pikachu perfectly, he's still got a good chance to recover. The only time Jiggs can really punish a Pikachu recovery is if he ends up in the air after the Up+B and has to slowly drop to the ground, but a good Pikachu will always avoid that.
 
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