ATHF - We actually get laid

[JCaesar]

@JCaesar- Who was the random MK

Beat. He lost to Quinnydinny's Ganon. That should say something.

 

[TheTantalus]

That was a good choice of comparison

meh how'd you manage to lose to random MK, I blame you for this not him, everyone loses to randoms once in a while, it happens, I have trouble beating you and I don't really think i'm a "random" mk

 

[GimR]

Brawl is about reading and punishing. The thing that makes MK the best is 1. a Tornado that is really hard to punish so a player needs perfect timing in order to stop it and 2. It's is a lot easier for him to punish people's air dodges, spot dodges and rolls. 3. some other things lol but they're not important right now.,

For example,

with any character, if you get a snake into the air you should not let him hit the ground if you read him correctly(which you can basically do off reaction). Some character's have weak horizontal momentum and laggier moves so they have to be more precise with there timing then an MK user. So in essence he is an easier character to use.

Should he be banned? No

 

[KORNNNNN~]

blame the game not the characters.. <_< lol

 

[VanillaWaffle]

perfect example of mk holding other characters back. if mk tornadoes and rob shields, it will go through his shield 99% of the time, even if he perfect shields it. with about 3 moves, all of which are slower than nado, that can beat nado, rob is screwed. ban mk, some of these characters like rob will become more viable and will be seen a lot more. but somehow i feel mk will never be banned because too many people know they wont be anywhere near as good without him, so they are going to fight.

@ scott - are you seriously saying that if i counterpick a stage like frigate that it justifies someone going mk? so by that logic, i can only counterpick neutrals instead of any of the counterpicks just to ensure nobody switches to mk on me.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Noid mains samus and doesnt complain

That alone should say enough

Edit: Time to address some of these posts

@JCaesar- Who was the random MK
@Nate- You shouldn't have lost the second game against random scrub when you sd'd. You wouldn't have been put in that position. You also shouldn't have picked a stage that would entice someone to switch off their main for MK. June beats people fine at frigate, but you could've picked a neutral stage like BF and you had pick advantage on slobs so if he went MK you could change if you're uncomfortable. Ksizzle used Lucario to beat Judge at Pound 4, because his MK couldn't get the job done. That's one of the best MK's in the world
@NOID- You have enough character problems, I can see why you don't care
@Seagull- I could still beat your wolf with a non-mk character (like DDD)
@Kenny- u bitter? (not being mean)
@Brandon- Host an MK banned tourney sometime, I'll bet it changes nothing, but might stand a chance at being equally as fun
@SnakAttack- I think I said wario vs MK was 60:40 MK, dunno what you're point is
@DA_RAIN- i'll come over sometime and practice. But I agree with you on almost every level, although if there was no ledge grab rule it makes some stupid characters viable like samus and toon link who could stay there all day and make it impossible to hit them
@BMX- when was the last time you lost to an MK
@Phil- Be black more

I'm done now.

I still alt Falco for D3. So yea..Money match?

 

[B0NK]

removing ledge grab limit and extended cape does very little for a MK player that still has to defeat his opponent and would probably just have more matches finishing on timer than anything. as for ledge stalling, lots of other characters can do it too so it's not like all edge/timer victories would even be secure MK wins. in the making of the standard rule sets, MK was considered heavily but the only actual changes made to cater to his legality were adding bad stages like port town in a desperate attempt to find a solid CP stage against him. almost all current tournaments ban those stages anyway, effectively meaning that MK has zero impact on the rule sets.

So are you saying that rules like the Ledge Grab Limit and rules against flying under the stage are in place not because of MK?

That's just silly, no other character can effectively plank and scrooge as well as MK. When MK does it then it's broken.

Not even Pit's planking can be considered broken: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR3nuRY2N7k

while we're talking tier lists, you guys realize that so long as no ledge grab rule exists the only viable characters are mk snake diddy wario right. even falco and ICs become non-viable as soon as there are no ledge restrictions. brawl has a very skewed tier distribution where those ccharacters at the top are really at the top. also, most characters in the high/mid tier range don't even have MK listed as their worst match.

I highly doubt that, sure Falco and IC's (and even diddy) would become less viable, but it doesn't change the fact that they are solid characters. I believe as long as MK isn't in the game then there is no need for ledge grab limits and rules against flying under the stage. Only MK alone makes these rules necessary.


I'm not even saying he should be banned, but people need to accept the fact that MK is the central role in our metagame, rulesets, and more indirectly, the stage list.

I still think it's stupid that rules that affect every character should be put in place for just one character (aka MK). That's like saying you can't jump in ST just because Akuma's aerial fireball is so broken....instead they just banned the character.

I believe we should allow metaknight to have all his tools (except IDC....but should extending the cape be banned?) or just ban him. But if everyone would rather have other characters limited just to keep MK in the game then that's what we will do.

Tl:dr

I don't think MK is broken in our current ruleset in MD/VA but I don't believe we should be limiting a ruleset for one character. (On that note I don't think any chaingrab should be banned i.e. D3's) The fact that we have to limit the character alone means he should have his own tier.


@Scott: Since you didn't respond to my previous posts, I can only assume you agree with them or just have no opinion on them.

 

[KageMurphy]

COMBO JOE is ready to show off that Tiger training! xD

 

[SOVAman]

blame the game not the characters.. <_< lol

MK is the game now

@Scott: everyone, yes EVERYONE plays mk in doubles and that makes him completely control the doubles metagame

if he is banned doubles will be better for sure

 

[B0NK]

perfect example of mk holding other characters back. if mk tornadoes and rob shields, it will go through his shield 99% of the time, even if he perfect shields it. with about 3 moves, all of which are slower than nado, that can beat nado, rob is screwed. ban mk, some of these characters like rob will become more viable and will be seen a lot more. but somehow i feel mk will never be banned because too many people know they wont be anywhere near as good without him, so they are going to fight.

@ scott - are you seriously saying that if i counterpick a stage like frigate that it justifies someone going mk? so by that logic, i can only counterpick neutrals instead of any of the counterpicks just to ensure nobody switches to mk on me.

Just to point it out..... you can spotdodge the last few hits so tornado doesn't poke your shield (assuming you have a full shield >.<)

But I agree it's stupid how frame perfect you have to be to punish that move.

And I also agree MK breaks the counterpick system =/

 

[TheTantalus]

@ Nate-Yes I'm saying it justifies it

I totally did it to the wifi ***s THAT CP'D MY FALCON WITH FALCO BECAUSE I BEAT THEIR MK WITH FALCON, they pick gay stage, i go mk, simple as that
But why should I use falco at frigate, yes thats obviously a disadvantage, mk is a more viable choice there

I actually think doubles is quite fun as is

@Bonk- i'm pretty much ignoring most of the valid argument posts because I'm not really taking this very seriously

 

[SOVAman]

I actually think doubles is quite fun as is

Cuz you need MK to enjoy it

 

[KREVA]

Cuz you need MK to enjoy it

This is truth. ^

 

[BMX]

But ppl still win regardless without mk... so wtf?

 

[B0NK]

@Bonk- i'm pretty much ignoring most of the valid argument posts because I'm not really taking this very seriously

In that case I'll make my arguments seem less valid.

MK IS SOOOOOO BROKEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GRAB THE LEDGE. WHAT WAS THAT CP? WAIT NVM DONT TELL ME I'LL JUST PICK MK. IM A DOUBLES GOD BECAUSE I HAVE MK. NEED A TEAMMATE...NO? BUT WHAT IF I PLAY MK?!?! IM NOT STALLING IM JUST USING MY DIMENSIONAL CAPE TO LOOK COOL AND MOVE ACROSS THE STAGE. IS THAT A LEDGE GRAB LIMIT? TIME TO FLY UNDER THE STAGE!!!! WHY IS IT THAT I HAVE THE BEST DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE GAMEPLAY? I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE FRAME DATA SHOWING IM BROKEN, I'M TELLING YOU IT'S PUNISHABLE. WHY SHOULD I ACTUALLY PUT EFFORT TO WIN AGAINST MY DISADVANTAGE MATCHUPS WHEN I CAN PICK MK AND ALWAYS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE ON ANY STAGE. WHAT? YOU BANNED NORFAIR? THANK GOD I GOT RAINBOW CRUISE AND BRINSTAR. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CP ME TO? A NUETRAL? HAHAHAHAHA. THE TOP TIER IS DECIDED BY WHO CAN MOST EFFECTIVELY FIGHT AGAINST ME, IF YOU CAN'T YOUR UNVIABLE. ECT. ECT. ECT.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Mk is gayuhz.

 

[KREVA]

In that case I'll make my arguments seem less valid.

MK IS SOOOOOO BROKEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GRAB THE LEDGE. WHAT WAS THAT CP? WAIT NVM DONT TELL ME I'LL JUST PICK MK. IM A DOUBLES GOD BECAUSE I HAVE MK. NEED A TEAMMATE...NO? BUT WHAT IF I PLAY MK?!?! IM NOT STALLING IM JUST USING MY DIMENSIONAL CAPE TO LOOK COOL AND MOVE ACROSS THE STAGE. IS THAT A LEDGE GRAB LIMIT? TIME TO FLY UNDER THE STAGE!!!! WHY IS IT THAT I HAVE THE BEST DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE GAMEPLAY? I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE FRAME DATA SHOWING IM BROKEN, I'M TELLING YOU IT'S PUNISHABLE. WHY SHOULD I ACTUALLY PUT EFFORT TO WIN AGAINST MY DISADVANTAGE MATCHUPS WHEN I CAN PICK MK AND ALWAYS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE ON ANY STAGE. WHAT? YOU BANNED NORFAIR? THANK GOD I GOT RAINBOW CRUISE AND BRINSTAR. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CP ME TO? A NUETRAL? HAHAHAHAHA. THE TOP TIER IS DECIDED BY WHO CAN MOST EFFECTIVELY FIGHT AGAINST ME, IF YOU CAN'T YOUR UNVIABLE. ECT. ECT. ECT.

I like you Bonk. Internets are given to you. :]

 

[BMX]

Just stop crying and fight MK.... the only reason why people lose to mks in general is because people can't handle the match-up well. The solution?

Get better.

The counterpick system is there, but undeniably, Mk can do well in any stage... Solution?

Get better.

It all comes down to how well you can defeat the MK obstacle...

 

[TheTantalus]

You all know june doesn't check the boards much, right?

Freaking wario players

 

[KORNNNNN~]

MKMKMKMKMKMKMKMKMKMKMKMK

how about Snake... ? :o our region havn't beat Candy yet... :D

 

[KREVA]

Just stop crying and fight MK.... the only reason why people lose to mks in general is because people can't handle the match-up well. The solution?

Get better.

The counterpick system is there, but undeniably, Mk can do well in any stage... Solution?

Get better.

It all comes down to how well you can defeat the MK obstacle...

I think the main problem people have with MK players is pretty obvious:

They suck with everything else so they have to resort to using the best character to go places. And it's true, not many people can handle the match-up that well. There really is no "SET" solution on how to beat an MK fairly, because telling people to "get better" is obviously the best generic answer anyone could give to someone who doesn't main MK. You can't tell the average (and this is an example) Lucas or Luigi player to step up his game when fighting MK.

MK has priority, killing the majority of peoples move sets, etc, etc. The list goes on. I could main MK and practice his stuff. And after I do, I could go to a tournament, play the GC Controller with my hairy ballsack, and win 4 to 5 matches or even go to the very end. When it comes down to MK dittos, it all depends on who played MK longer and has more experience fighting in said ditto.

MK players can suggadigg. And no, I'm not mad. It's just stupid on how people try to justify MK not being "gay" or "broken". That's like saying "Yun with his Super 3 in 3rd Strike isn't broken. Developers put it in the game for a reason."

Idiots.

 

[TheTantalus]

Kreva I will gladly beat you with a non-mk broken character

 

[BMX]

Cafe is right, though...

We all complain about Mk, but our #1 player is a Snake main...

We all lose to other characters besides Mk, why are we still *****ing about one character?

Get over yourselves and start getting better, because this I HATE MK discussion is really getting old.

 

[junebug]

hmmm...

aight.

gamepad hype?

 

[BMX]

yeahuz GAMEPAD

Pumped.

 

[KREVA]

Kreva I will gladly beat you with a non-mk broken character

Laugh Out Loud @ you getting defensive over my opinion. It's Brawl, who gives a crap honestly. I could care less even if you did or didn't beat me with a "non-mk" character. You think winning with another character will "defend" your honor as an Brawl player and an MK main? Right.

@ BMX: Candy is too good. But the problem is in other regions, the top players are "MK" and "Snake" mains. Doesn't change anything.

 

[VanillaWaffle]

alright you heard it here first, tant has just said there should be no counterpicks, only neutrals.

 

[NO-IDea]

LMFAO



2 years later.....

80% of people are still complaining

g**** Noid, nice advice

(1200 hours later)

80% of this community is still bad at the game. So I guess that makes sense?

@Tant: I think the point I'm trying to make is that once you start becoming skilled with a low tier and used to overcoming inherent weaknesses to your character, making the leap into saying MK isn't broken (with a LGL rule in tact) isn't that much. MK is certainly the best character, but that's just because of his design (frame data). It's Brawl's mechanics (ledge invincibility frames) that can make him broken, but a little alteration in the ruleset fixes that.

@Seagull: I'd MM your MK with Samus if you want. It's practically free money for ya! ^_^

 

[VanillaWaffle]

@ noid - if 80% is still bad, i believe that actually means that 80% is at a normal skill level. the majority sets what is normal.

 

[BMX]

So pretty much what everyone is saying is that 80% of the smashers that play can't play with/or against MK?

Alright, lemme pick up MK and start dominating tournaments.... WAIT!

I'm not good enough to place 1st.... That's pretty much what defines tournaments, who is good and who is not.

Candy, June, Boss, Profound Sadness, etc, prove that MK is not the most dominant character around.

When have you guys lost to an MK?

I wanna know...

I've only lost to Korn, and he's a respectable MK main, not just of his character, but because he's a smart player overall..

 

[TheTantalus]

Kreva im not defensive, i love you mang

But- to deny that other characters are broken would be silly

As for cps, people usually take mk to fd, halberd or yoshis. Hes a character like others, would you cp someone who 2nds ddd to castle siege when you play dk? Nope

Just consider the risk of picking frigate when you're lucario or learn it like june has

I havent lost to an mk in a long time, because mine is better than their mk isnt as good as mine.

 

[SOVAman]

(1200 hours later)

80% of this community is still bad at the game. So I guess that makes sense?

co ol

 

[SOVAman]

I havent lost to an mk in a long time, because mine is better than their mk isnt as good as mine.

LOL good stuff tant

 

[B0NK]

Candy, June, Boss, Profound Sadness, etc, prove that MK is not the most dominant character around, in our region.

Fixed.

Because tournament results in pretty much every other region show he is the most dominant. What these great non-mk players actually show is that it is possible to have diversity in a region if people take the effort to overcome the obstacle known as MK and their own personal obstacles, regardless of the character you main.

I don't think MK needs to be banned (with our ruleset), I just think it would be interesting to see how much of an effect he really has on the game by taking him out for a few months (and actually test out a less limited ruleset). But unless the SBR makes that decision it will be hard to see on a national scale =/ (and with MLG, right now isn't the time).

 

[TheTantalus]

I agree with noid btw

 

[VanillaWaffle]

your still saying the same thing, because everyone has mk in their back pocket tant. as for learning frigate, pretty sure i showed that i know it. but again you keep bringing up one match of mine, when im talking on a more universal scale.

 

[BetaZealot]

making mk players complain is the best feeling

cause mk is da bess

falco is mad though

i'll get into this debate in a minute

 

[KageMurphy]

You got ***** by NEO's MK, Tant

MK IS ****ING BROKEN LOLOLOL, not rly tho, silence this ****ty discussion

 

[ChaosKnight]

well how many true MK players do this region have? like 1 ? rofl

i might main MK for the hell of it for summertime xD

 

[Seagull Joe]

(1200 hours later)

80% of this community is still bad at the game. So I guess that makes sense?

@Tant: I think the point I'm trying to make is that once you start becoming skilled with a low tier and used to overcoming inherent weaknesses to your character, making the leap into saying MK isn't broken (with a LGL rule in tact) isn't that much. MK is certainly the best character, but that's just because of his design (frame data). It's Brawl's mechanics (ledge invincibility frames) that can make him broken, but a little alteration in the ruleset fixes that.

@Seagull: I'd MM your MK with Samus if you want. It's practically free money for ya! ^_^

Sure and for 5 bucks.