Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Noyu]

Hi guys,

Let me know how I should deal with this, but if you cannot relate obviously don't reply. Recently, I've been putting more time into this game because I'd like to be somewhat good at it. Why is it that someone loses to Yoshi they have to give me a hard time over it? It's never, "Nice job, I realize yoshi's pretty hard, you played well" or "Nice parry." It's always, "That's so broken" or "Yoshi's so gimmicky."

Recently this beginner-level player who sold-out on his character Dr. Mario to play Ice Climbers, a real gimmicky character if you ask me (not saying icies can't be played without gimmicks, but I feel most choose icies for this reason), told me 4 weeks after I beat him in tourney (yes, 4 weeks lol), "You know, aMSa said the matchup is 35-65 in yoshi's favor." I wanted to tell him how much I cared about aMSa's opinion on the matchup or punch him in the face, but I just let it go, because if he wants to john it'll only hold him back. Regardless of whether or not aMSa really said this, it makes me mad that post-aMSa, everyone just thinks yoshi is easy character to play. I know yoshi is good, but that doesn't mean that just because you beat someone you had an easy-street victory. Even before matches against new people, they'll tell me, wow you know yoshi's actually pretty good, the pre-game john.

The same day, I played one of the better players in my community who plays marth. I'm not better than him by any means. I'm not here to debate who wins the marth-yoshi matchup, but I think marth wins barely and he just didn't know that I had been getting better since we last played and he didn't know the MU. I parried-->countered his forward smash completely on anticipation, because I personally cannot parry something that fast visually. After the match he tells me marth is easy to parry which is NOT TRUE! He's not falco or luigi or sheik. Marth's attacks come out quick and jump cancelling them at the wrong time can be dangerous. They do not linger out like fox's nair. That's being said he's not impossible to parry either. The funny thing is that I didn't even beat him yet he tells me, this matchup is so bad for marth, just trying to put me down. He told me yoshi is easy to play, but marth and fox are not. WTF? It's like people think they can sound smart by denying what's obviously true to everyone. All noobs pick marth and fox. I asked him, "when you're playing friendlies with the other guys, why do you always play, Fox, falco, jiggs, marth, falcon, ganon, etc.? I never see you picking yoshi?" He actually gave me a pretty good response saying he plays low-tiers too, which is true, but he was an exception, most better players in my community who fool around don't fool around with yoshi because they know he's not easy. He later told me he's so glad sheik is in the game, so he can just beat me with that, and with that I just kept my mouth shut because I secretly found his cancerous mentality funny.

So tell me, how should I deal with this, because it's stressful playing really close matches with people only to hear them john and make excuses after every match I win or lose. I don't want to give yoshi's a bad name by talking trash to people I beat or complaining about when I lose (which I hardly ever do).

 

[Nuttre]

"It's a hard matchup to learn man."

 

[Icyo]

Hi guys,

Let me know how I should deal with this, but if you cannot relate obviously don't reply. Recently, I've been putting more time into this game because I'd like to be somewhat good at it. Why is it that someone loses to Yoshi they have to give me a hard time over it? It's never, "Nice job, I realize yoshi's pretty hard, you played well" or "Nice parry." It's always, "That's so broken" or "Yoshi's so gimmicky."

Recently this beginner-level player who sold-out on his character Dr. Mario to play Ice Climbers, a real gimmicky character if you ask me (not saying icies can't be played without gimmicks, but I feel most choose icies for this reason), told me 4 weeks after I beat him in tourney (yes, 4 weeks lol), "You know, aMSa said the matchup is 35-65 in yoshi's favor." I wanted to tell him how much I cared about aMSa's opinion on the matchup or punch him in the face, but I just let it go, because if he wants to john it'll only hold him back. Regardless of whether or not aMSa really said this, it makes me mad that post-aMSa, everyone just thinks yoshi is easy character to play. I know yoshi is good, but that doesn't mean that just because you beat someone you had an easy-street victory. Even before matches against new people, they'll tell me, wow you know yoshi's actually pretty good, the pre-game john.

The same day, I played one of the better players in my community who plays marth. I'm not better than him by any means. I'm not here to debate who wins the marth-yoshi matchup, but I think marth wins barely and he just didn't know that I had been getting better since we last played and he didn't know the MU. I parried-->countered his forward smash completely on anticipation, because I personally cannot parry something that fast visually. After the match he tells me marth is easy to parry which is NOT TRUE! He's not falco or luigi or sheik. Marth's attacks come out quick and jump cancelling them at the wrong time can be dangerous. They do not linger out like fox's nair. That's being said he's not impossible to parry either. The funny thing is that I didn't even beat him yet he tells me, this matchup is so bad for marth, just trying to put me down. He told me yoshi is easy to play, but marth and fox are not. WTF? It's like people think they can sound smart by denying what's obviously true to everyone. All noobs pick marth and fox. I asked him, "when you're playing friendlies with the other guys, why do you always play, Fox, falco, jiggs, marth, falcon, ganon, etc.? I never see you picking yoshi?" He actually gave me a pretty good response saying he plays low-tiers too, which is true, but he was an exception, most better players in my community who fool around don't fool around with yoshi because they know he's not easy. He later told me he's so glad sheik is in the game, so he can just beat me with that, and with that I just kept my mouth shut because I secretly found his cancerous mentality funny.

So tell me, how should I deal with this, because it's stressful playing really close matches with people only to hear them john and make excuses after every match I win or lose. I don't want to give yoshi's a bad name by talking trash to people I beat or complaining about when I lose (which I hardly ever do).

Don't sugar coat your responses if you do respond to them. There's a way to respond to just about everything in the game...especially when it comes to fighting Yoshi. Calling a character "gimmicky" is a bad excuse. Tell them that. If they don't know a match up, then they can learn it.

 

[Pabmyster]

All I can say to that is to improve and put them in their place continuously until they get extremely salty and quit Melee

 

[Sashimi]

One of the most significant experiences I've had with Melee was learning the difference between these sentences:

Player who just beat me: "Good game, you have a good Yoshi." (very clearly proud that he wasn't the guy who lost to a low tier)
Player who just lost to me: "Good game, you have a good Yoshi." (very clearly disappointed that he was the guy who lost to a low tier)
Player who just lost to me: "Good game, you have a good Yoshi." (actually respectful and not upset about losing to a low tier)

It doesn't matter what game you're playing. There will always be players with bad attitudes and bad mindsets. In Melee there are a lot of people who feel strongly about non-top tiers, whether they absolutely love them (usually bad or new players) or hate them and the players who main them. There is a reason why people only know or care about aMSa, and why they only seem to remember either his best tournaments or his worst ones.

If you're curious, aMSa thinks the ICs matchup is slightly in favour of ICs. Also, I would suggest you try to let go of the idea that "All noobs pick ____ character" or "____ is a gimmicky character."

As for characters being easy to play, people say that about pretty much every character. Marth is stupid because noobs can pick him and Fsmash, Sheik is stupid because she can Dthrow > anything she wants, Puff is stupid because she has a really good Bair, Fox is stupid because he has a 1-frame attack and his Usmash is strong, Falco is stupid because of lasers and easymode combos, Peach is stupid because her Dsmash does like 80% if you CC it, ICs are stupid because of wobbling, and Falcon is...I can't believe people actually complain about Falcon but apparently knee is broken or something? I've even heard people say that Pikachu is easy because of his tailspike (because that makes sense).

I find Marth to be tougher to parry than most characters because Marth players tend to mix up their timings well but also tend to not throw out many aerials compared to some other characters. That being said, every character is more or less the same once you learn to parry on timing read rather than try to react to what they're doing. Marth players do tend to hate the matchup though, even if they think it's in Marth's favour (which some do). I think it's just frustrating from the Marth player's perspective and I've never actually met a Marth who enjoys the matchup.

"I can just pick Sheik and chaingrab you" ...lol. It's 2015 and that doesn't work anymore.

At the end of the day, like most things in Melee, people will respect you if you win consisently. Just take it easy and don't let it get to you. As you get better you will find those complaints disappear. The people who continue to call you gimmicky or who complain about your character are the ones who will fall behind as they are surpassed by players who actually have a good mindset.

 

[Pabmyster]

^ definitely the best response you could ask for.

 

[Noyu]

I love you Perhapsman, just some things I wanna say though.

I do tend to go far out of my way to promote my own belief that yoshi is a good character, not low tier, in fact high tier, to the point to where I say he is better then falcon, just not AS EASY as Falcon to play as. Lol I know 90% of people on the boards here would disagree, but it's just my opinion. This doesn't mean a yoshi of my level will always beat falcon. While it's true everyone says everyone is easy to play as, I feel Yoshi doesn't get it as much. As a noob I'd heard a bit of complaining about D-smash but that's it. Also, I've seen this with like 6 different people in my community including myself. One non-marth main goes falcon and one non-falcon main goes falcon. When they are both noobs, marth unanimously wins, why? Because movement hasn't been developed with falcon, so the falcon can't mindgame the marth or even nair, but at the highest level things begin to change. It's like the difference between quantum and classical mechanics. What you'd expect isn't the reality at all. I feel yoshi exemplifies this the MOST. I just wish more people I knew believed me.

And one thing perhapsman, you said, "At the end of the day, like most things in Melee, people will respect you if you win consisently." I play at a college with someone really good, like maybe even someone who's you-could-say, "godlike." I told my older friend why I'm not entering melee for tourney at our weeklies, and he told me, "Guess who has the most haters in this room?" Then he said "XXXX," because it's really true. Everyone talks crap behind his back, because he wins majors and streams more than he plays with us. I never cared though. His point was, when you are good at something, people are going to be jealous of you. I also agree with you though, because when XXXX does show up to our fests everyone kisses up to him and respects him. So I told myself, I'm going to get good enough to shut everyone up here, at least to my face. If they want to talk behind my back, I could care more.

I went to my first fest as a casual and played yoshi the entire day egg rolling and not even air dodging recoveries, so basically just dying, but XXXX said to never leave the character you love because 1. He has tons of potential, and 2. You won't be motivated enough to take him/her to the limit if you don't love it. Because I have this existential connection with yoshi, I can never leave lol, and that's what I've done while even the best in my community have swapped mains so many times.

Finally, by shiek not being about to chaingrab, she still can, even with the yoshi going 4th port, it's just harder, am I right? I always DI behind and up+jump asap but it's not fullproof, and sheik can crouch cancel-->grab yoshi if yoshi djc nairs.

Thanks for the replies all.

 

[Purpletuce]

To be fair, Yoshi can be played 100% gimmick, and I'd say he is really hard for a player to start playing, because it is easy to get mentally stuck where you only go for gimmicks.

Yes, the Shiek CG is still real, people just mess it up, even M2K.

I had M2K come to Corvallis, he couldn't CG me, but the Shieks in my area always do.

 

[Sashimi]

My point about the chaingrab isn't that Sheik can't chaingrab Yoshi, it's that the chaingrab isn't going to win you any games if you don't actually know what Yoshi does.

 

[Noyu]

Ah ok. Thanks.

 

[Icyo]

I'm really confused about how the neutral game is played as Yoshi. I understand it's a bit different depending on what character your opponent is playing. From what I gather from watching videos of various peoples' Yoshis, it's all a game of zoning to take control. When I watch people it seems that they're throwing out a DJC nair or a quick ground move that's entirely safe then space around the opponent's attack when they try to punish. I also notice that there's not much "footsies" going on. Dash dance doesn't seem to be utilized. Is there potential for dash dance or a reason no one uses it? Is there anything else in the neutral that I'm not seeing?

 

[Nuttre]

Dash dance is a very useful tool, just make sure you space it properly. Also it is only really useful when yoshi has stage control, and how often does that happen?
And you nailed yoshi's neutral, at least the way I see it.

 

[kofinater]

I think of dashdancing in 2 types, there is the offensive dash dance that can generally move your opponent into a corner our the defensive dash dance, which I see more of a reactive tool to dodge. The characters i think of most when I think offensive DD are Marth and fox. These characters have extremely threatening tools our of dash/run, both have a really scary grab game, Marth has dtilt and fox has his plethora of aerials and shine. Yoshi's threat of dash is dtilt and djc nair. Grab is there but its hard to land so its not overly threatening. The way i use dash dance as yoshi is mostly as a reactive defensive tool, namely dash back rdjc nair and start something of the nair. I'm also playing with dash back pivot fsmash cause the warp of fsmash combined with the dash back can catch a bunch of people.

 

[DD151]

I've thought a bit about Yoshi's options for edgeguarding below the stage because he doesn't have the tools to reach there due to forced DJC with an aerial and lack of up-B. He can reach with eggs, but they also have a 70 degree KB trajectory, which is near vertical (88 degrees) with optimal DI, and eggs can be beat by certain up-B moves such as Fire Fox.

I went into debug mode and tested haxdash -> falling aerial to see what could be done. I first tested N-air and collected the following frame data. All frame numbers start from the first frame that Yoshi is in his falling animation (frame 1).

Double jump to edgehog:
Frame 1: N-air
Frame 46: double jump

Yoshi has to use N-air the first frame of his falling animation double jump on N-air's earliest IASA frame in order to double jump and edgehog without an air dodge.

Double jump to air dodge to edgehog:
Frame 1: N-air
Frame 49: double jump

Compared to double jump without air dodge, Yoshi has a 3 frame leniency on the execution of the N-air and the double jump. When testing this, I inputted the air dodge at 90 degrees on frame 43 of Yoshi's double jump.



So I don't think that haxdash N-air is a viable option because the required input is nearly frame-perfect and Yoshi is in a terrible position if he misses the attack and the opponent returns to the stage. The input itself is really difficult because N-air can't be C-sticked and it's very hard to N-air instead of B-air on the first frame of Yoshi's falling animation. Unfortunately, Yoshi doesn't have very many other options here. F-air has a similarly tight window and it doesn't hit behind him, though I guess it could be used for a stylish KO on characters like C. Falcon and Ganondorf. U-air obviously hits in the wrong direction. D-air cannot be interrupted such that Yoshi can make it back to the stage.

B-air's KB is weak and its KB trajectory is sub-optimal (60 degrees, 78 degrees with optimal DI), but it might be able to disrupt a recovering Fox or Falco. Its earliest IASA frame is frame 38, so there's a lot of leniency with execution. How well do you think this would work in practice?

 

[Sashimi]

If I had to do an offstage edgeguard from the ledge like you described, I would choose Bair simply because you can act out of it sooner. It is obviously very weak, but this does help mitigate the 60° knockback angle. Dair can't be done from the ledge, but it can be done from a short hop or drop zone, and against Ganon, Falco, Young Link and potentially others it is useful. If you drag them low enough, their Up+B will not reach the ledge, so meteor cancelling isn't a problem. They can SDI Up and meteor cancel, so it is not perfect.

I haven't tried Bair a lot against low recoveries, but I could see it being good vs Falco and maybe Fox. Egg Toss is also useful against low Fox/Falco recoveries (see aMSa vs Fiction at MLG). The challenge is to hit before they are done charging.

 

[DD151]

I haven't tried Bair a lot against low recoveries, but I could see it being good vs Falco and maybe Fox. Egg Toss is also useful against low Fox/Falco recoveries (see aMSa vs Fiction at MLG). The challenge is to hit before they are done charging.

Precisely. Because it takes so long for Egg Toss to travel to its target (up to 56 frames, plus the 18 frame startup), hitting a space animal during his up-B charge requires predicting where he will be charging his up-B in addition to enough frames beforehand to even get the egg to the target location. Also, Yoshi frequently wants to do the Egg Toss edgehog, which puts him in a position where he has to do reverse ECEs to hit a target recovering from far away (which I think are impractical because they're super hard to do properly).

So here what I'm thinking is, if you hit confirm the Egg Toss edgehog on a low recovering space animal, you can immediately go for a haxdash B-air to hit them again.



At some point it might be worth looking into developing a space animal edgeguard flowchart, because these guys are very common, they have many recovery options, and their side-B is too ****ing fast.

 

[Sashimi]

I would be interested in making or contributing to an edgeguarding flowchart, especially for spacies (but any character would interest me). If I have the time I will definitely do this at some point.

Edit: Also I love the idea of Egg Toss > Bair from ledge!

 

[DD151]

I would be interested in making or contributing to an edgeguarding flowchart, especially for spacies (but any character would interest me). If I have the time I will definitely do this at some point

I think it would be best to pick the low-hanging fruit, i.e., pick a character that's relatively common and "easy" to edgeguard. I'd say the starting points should be C. Falcon, Sheik, and Marth in that order.

Methodology would be tricky here. There are a lot of contingent factors, which means that it's difficult to craft a flowchart based purely on theorycraft and frame data (unlike tech chases where the opponent is limited to 4 options). We could pull real examples, but there is really only one top-level Yoshi main, tournament videos are scarce, and we don't know if aMSa's edgeguards are optimal.

EDIT: because a successful Egg Lay forces Yoshi into a 30 frame animation, he can't make it back to the stage from a haxdash if he actually swallows the opponent.



I have one more thing to add to my previous post about haxdash edgeguards: you can also haxdash to reverse Egg Lay and make it back to the edge. The coverage is pretty terrible, you SD if you accidentally Egg Roll, and I'm pretty sure a good opponent spacie can break out and make it back, but you can try it if you want to style on an opponent who can't quickly break out of Egg Lay.

This actually prompts two Egg Lay related questions: does swallowing a target cause the move to have different frame data, and what's the formula for an opponent breaking out of the egg?

 

[Icyo]

So I made a little MP3 file that has the rhythm of what would be a frame perfect ECE. I kind of got this idea from wobbling since they associate when to press A with a certain tempo. I'm going to experiment practicing ECE's while listening to it next week. I might try to vary the tempo if I feel that I'm trying to do them too fast or if it's throwing me off. I may even slow it down to half speed. When musicians practice new pieces of music, they practice slow first then fast. This actually helps their technical skill(fingering the notes) and I feel like the same should apply to Melee.

Here's the file if anyone wants it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gljjxs6c8z7oeft/ece_normal.mp3?dl=0

I've clocked the tempo at 196 BPM. The rhythm is actually really simple. There are two beats. As you listen to it, simply say: "1 and 2" for each set of clicks.
On 1: This is when you grab the ledge
On and: Drop from the ledge and jump as soon as possible
On 2: Throw your egg
Then it repeats and the next 1 should be grabbing the ledge.

 

[DD151]

Frame perfect ECEs are, what, 38 frames per cycle? That's 94.74 cycles per minute, which doesn't divide into 196 BPM. Going on what you're describing, it sounds like frame perfect ECEs should be 189.47 BPM.

Based on the frame data for ECE, a good approximation should be a beat occurring every 20 frames (because you're supposed to throw the egg 20 frames after grabbing the edge in a perfect cycle). So it actually sounds like you want a 180 BPM tempo, which should correspond to a 40-frame ECE cycle. That seems pretty good to me; you only have 2 extra frames of vulnerability.

I appreciate the effort, but unlike wobbling, I don't think it's important to have frame perfect ECEs throughout the entire cycle. I think it's more important to be able to double jump and up-B as early as possible (otherwise Yoshi sticks his nose too far up and he can get hit by needles, lasers, and missiles), but dropping from the edge after grabbing it doesn't have to be frame perfect. Maybe the audio practice will help regardless. I find that if I try too hard to get the frame perfect ledge drop, I end up doing too many accidental tournament winners, but I usually don't have a problem doing a good double jump and egg toss.

On a related note, does anyone do aMSa's event match 50 exercise for ECE practice? My best time is 1:49:xx.

 

[Purpletuce]

An extra 2 frames goes a long way, especially since if you're not adjusting for the height by dropping lower, you'll be way over the ledge and pretty much any move could clip you.

I only once did the event 50 thing.

 

[Icyo]

I appreciate the effort, but unlike wobbling, I don't think it's important to have frame perfect ECEs throughout the entire cycle. I think it's more important to be able to double jump and up-B as early as possible (otherwise Yoshi sticks his nose too far up and he can get hit by needles, lasers, and missiles), but dropping from the edge after grabbing it doesn't have to be frame perfect. Maybe the audio practice will help regardless. I find that if I try too hard to get the frame perfect ledge drop, I end up doing too many accidental tournament winners, but I usually don't have a problem doing a good double jump and egg toss.

On a related note, does anyone do aMSa's event match 50 exercise for ECE practice? My best time is 1:49:xx.

The goal isn't to have frame perfect ECE's but, rather, internalize a rhythm to use as a oort of mnemonic device. Thanks for you calculations. I was sort of off lol.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'd say perfect eces is a good goal, but in the short term timing it so you're only off by at most 1 frame isn't bad either. Also, having a feel for it is very useful, so you can adjust height as well as do them as fast as possible.

 

[Festive]

Do you guys have advice on ways I can practice juggling say fox or falco? And are there certain things I should keep in mind while trying to juggle? I know there's I think level three cpu's that have good DI but I'm not sure if this is an effective way to practice. Is there a way to practice combo game in general? (Besides playing against people of course.)

 

[DD151]

If you have 20XX, CPUs will DI randomly.

Something else that I do without 20XX is to plug in a second controller, set damage ratio to 0.5, player 1's handicap to 1 and player 2's handicap to 9, and practice doing fast DJC U-airs.

 

[Baron Omega]

is there a thread in regards to yoshi for smash for wii u or is this the tread that everyone chats in when it comes to yoshi on all games of smash

 

[Purpletuce]

This is in the Melee Character Discussion forum, under Super Smash Bros Melee. . . Try looking around here: http://smashboards.com/forums/yoshi.471/

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

What do you guys do in the neutral in the Puff matchup? I'm working on parrying her aerials as she comes in, but can't quite figure out how to assert my space/do anything other than wait for Puff to come in.

 

[Festive]

What do you guys do in the neutral in the Puff matchup? I'm working on parrying her aerials as she comes in, but can't quite figure out how to assert my space/do anything other than wait for Puff to come in.

When it comes to spacing you're supposed to space out their furthest move I believe. So in this case it's her back air. What I like to do is space out her back air (this in turn spaces all her other attacks) and wait for her to commit to something punishable. Also you want to be careful when you're off the stage with her. Her pound breaks yoshi's armor at 63% so be mindful of that.

 

[Icyo]

I have a few questions.

1. Does anyone know of any videos where a Yoshi player has some real fundamental play? I feel like I'm having trouble grasping how Yoshi is truly played(when to utilize tech, how to follow up after stray hits, etc.)

2. Has anyone ever looked in Run -> DJL -> Some tilt as an approach option? I think it would make doing pivots easier and make it possible to act pseudo immediately out of run.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think Kimimaru would be a good example of solid fundamental play. Obviously, aMSa has really solid fundamentals as well, but also has a lot of flair/nuance which might make his videos not quite what you're asking for...

 

[DD151]

2. Has anyone ever looked in Run -> DJL -> Some tilt as an approach option? I think it would make doing pivots easier and make it possible to act pseudo immediately out of run.

I have considered this and I don't think it's a good approach option. I think it's better used either as a read or a whiff punish on short hopped aerials.

EDIT: Obviously everything is a read, but U-tilt has abysmal horizontal range and I don't think U-tilt or F-tilt out of a running DJL are going to land you any openings. D-tilt you can just crouch out of a run.

 

[tauKhan]

Why would you djl out of run, when you can crouch anything out of run considerably faster. Only difference, aside from being slower that I can think of, is that you can dj to stop you. But even so you still slide for 5 frames jumpsquat, so I don't think it makes much of a difference.

 

[Icyo]

I have considered this and I don't think it's a good approach option. I think it's better used either as a read or a whiff punish on short hopped aerials.

EDIT: Obviously everything is a read, but U-tilt has abysmal horizontal range and I don't think U-tilt or F-tilt out of a running DJL are going to land you any openings. D-tilt you can just crouch out of a run.

How about its usefulness to turnaround tilt when getting chased down by faster characters? What's the frame data like for that? I'd imagine the only good move for this case would be dtilt and maybe ftilt.

Why would you djl out of run, when you can crouch anything out of run considerably faster. Only difference, aside from being slower that I can think of, is that you can dj to stop you. But even so you still slide for 5 frames jumpsquat, so I don't think it makes much of a difference.

I find it easier to tilt out of DJL than crouch to be honest.

 

[YOSHIDO]

@ SNEAKY_URKEL Festive made a very good point about spacing out her best option then going from there. In the neutral I find it helpful to cut across her after she has committed to something. Until then stay in different areas where you can bait your approaches. Floaties in my experience don't handle yoshi's change in direction very well. Once they commit even to a zone, it takes them time to re-position if they are in the air. Getting them to the air is the problem. Also watch out for soft nair - rest, her grab is also very good for position. Best of luck.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Icyo Maybe it's easier to djl for some, but Run crouch ftilt/utilt/jab are definitely not too hard (not hard at all imo). And they're already utilized by many players and chars. So difficulty is not a factor you should be worried about in this case.

 

[DD151]

Why would you djl out of run, when you can crouch anything out of run considerably faster. Only difference, aside from being slower that I can think of, is that you can dj to stop you. But even so you still slide for 5 frames jumpsquat, so I don't think it makes much of a difference.

I mean, why would you turnaround F-tilt or turnaround F-smash out of a wavedash when you can just pivot them out of a dash faster.

How about its usefulness to turnaround tilt when getting chased down by faster characters? What's the frame data like for that? I'd imagine the only good move for this case would be dtilt and maybe ftilt.

From when you begin jumpsquat, you can act 7 frames later, and then D/U/F-tilt will come out 8/8/6 frames after that. I think you can turn around in your double jump, so it doesn't cost an extra frame to turn around on the ground.

 

[Nuttre]

Why would you djl out of run, when you can crouch anything out of run considerably faster. Only difference, aside from being slower that I can think of, is that you can dj to stop you. But even so you still slide for 5 frames jumpsquat, so I don't think it makes much of a difference.

It doesn't work out of a dash, so that could attribute. I hardly ever need to run myself, so I don't use it.

 

[Sashimi]

@ D DD151 Actually, you can't turn around during a double jump land. You would have to input the turnaround after landing.

 

[tauKhan]

I mean, why would you turnaround F-tilt or turnaround F-smash out of a wavedash when you can just pivot them out of a dash faster.

That's not even remotely close comparison. Pivot ftilts are very hard to do, and wd fsmashes are often used at longer ranges than possible with pivots. But I do think pivot fsmashes are generally underused.

Meanwhile djl tilt out of run seems just strictly inferior version of an easy tech. Though djl turnarounds might be more useful. Djl tilts out of dashes are something that might be worth it, since it's faster than wd/run crouch tilts.