Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[Icyo]

Why do people give up so much stage space when aMSa is camping ECE's at the ledge? Is trying hit the eggs a bad thing to do?

https://youtu.be/SDnKE5J7ki8?t=8m31s
At 8:35, all the needles get parried. How does this happen? I recall that at Apex 2015, Kirbykaze would sometimes throw needles out of a jump and this would prevent amsa from parrying. Was he just slow on the reaction or are needles difficult to parry?

 

[PsyRex]

Is it possible that all of the needles hit within the parry window? Also I suppose it's possible that aMSa's timing was just a bit off in other cases. I'm just speculating, but I'm sure DD151 or PerhapsMan could provide a more confident answer.

 

[Sashimi]

It looks like all but the last two needles missed, and aMSa managed to crouch parry those last two needles at the same time. I don't know how situational this is but if it's possible to do consistently, it looks like a decent option against Sheik's aerial needles. I think the spacing looks pretty specific though.

 

[Purpletuce]

People give up stage control when they don't know the MU, an experienced player against yoshi wouldn't do that.

Also, I'd interpret the above video as aMSa being more aggressive with such a quick charge under Shiek, that it wasn't something M2K was able to handle, and those needles were to cover the area aMSa would have been waiting at, should aMSa been trying to punish Shiek's landing. This caused only the last needle to hit, and set up aMSa's opening.

Unrelated, I got 17th at Northwest Regionals the other day and went all Yoshi. I got to play some players who had experience vs Kimimaru which was interesting.

 

[DD151]

Meanwhile djl tilt out of run seems just strictly inferior version of an easy tech. Though djl turnarounds might be more useful. Djl tilts out of dashes are something that might be worth it, since it's faster than wd/run crouch tilts.

I don't know if you have distinct ideas for DJL tilt and DJL turnaround (since I thought we were talking about DJL turnaround F-tilt out of run after I dismissed DJL F-tilt as an approach), but I was messing around in develop mode and discovered that you can't turn around during a run cancel until the squat animation is over, and you can only turn on the first frame after Squat, otherwise you enter SquatRV, which you can't turn out of.

So a perfect DJL turnaround takes 8 frames whereas the fastest run cancel turnaround takes 9 frames. If you enter SquatRV, then you can't turn around until frame 17.

 

[Peanutphobia]

Unrelated, I got 17th at Northwest Regionals the other day and went all Yoshi. I got to play some players who had experience vs Kimimaru which was interesting.

Good stuff man! Was anything recorded? I'd love to see some of your sets!

 

[tauKhan]

@ D DD151 Some misunderstanding then . I was still talking about how I dislike the idea of run -> djl -> tilt facing forward.

Yeah you can't even tilt turn out of SquatWait at all, because the input just causes SquatRV. So the fastest way to realistically turn tilt out of crouch is SquatWait -> walk -> tilt turn. Which will probably take at least around 12 frames to do out of run. Tilt turning is an advantage to djl I originally didn't think of.

 

[Purpletuce]

Unfortunately, the venue only had one person streaming, who put a large emphasis on Smash 4 and PM over Melee... so I didn't have a single thing recorded.

 

[Bubberman]

Hey guys, just wanted to leave a post thanking you all for your awesome Yoshi advice. Been lurking around this thread for a while and have started seeing drastic improvements in my Yoshi play because of it. I'm going to try to be an active contributing member as I delve further into the world of the Yoshisaur >:DTried the trigger tricking thing tonight for the first time and got more parries in a Bo5 against my training buddy (playing Falco) than I probably ever had combined before. I feel like whole new world of Yoshi has opened up for me! Anyway, since I parry with L, I trigger tricked the L button, so I can't use it to light shield anymore, and light shielding with R just feels... wrong...I like buffering the light shield with Z, but is there any way to grab out of buffered Z light shield? Pressing A doesn't do it.. Granted, a shield grab punish with Yoshi's light shield would probably be impossible, but there are some situations (like after a misspaced Falco Fsmash or something) that I'd like to punish with a grab out of buffered light shield. Anybody know if this is possible?

 

[Sashimi]

In order to grab after a buffered Z shield, you'd have to press L or R (slightly or fully, doesn't matter), let go of Z and then press Z or A. If you are going for a shield grab, you're probably better off just full shielding, since the moves that are punishable by shield grab tend to do a lot of damage and will push a light shield (especially a Z shield) out of grab range.

 

[SwiggitySwo0ty]

I was messing around thinking of utilizing shield dropping when I thought of using egg toss out of shield drop. Turns out you can DI to grab ledge, cancelling the toss endlag on most platform stages. Here is the world's worst video: https://youtu.be/xNGUAgNvcLQ

 

[DD151]

Yo, Peanutphobia , I just saw the VOD of TMG finals. Good job taking 5 stocks off UCB, shame you guys didn't win.

 

[SwiggitySwo0ty]

Hey fellas, I'm not sure where to post these little nuances I have for discussion. I feel like this general post is most suited, I hope you don't mind.

Anyway I noticed today that you can full jump Uair-->Fair with Yosh. The frame data thread makes this out to be impossible. IASA on uair is listed as 39 and fair hit is 19 for a total of 58 while it says full jump is 56 frames. Also I'm curious if FJ uair fair could be moderate shield pressure since some characters have trouble getting a hit box behind them out of shield of you cross them up.

 

[Purpletuce]

If you FJ uair on shield, they don't need a hitbox behind them, just above them. It probably isn't a very good idea, but you can definitely try it

 

[DD151]

Anyway I noticed today that you can full jump Uair-->Fair with Yosh. The frame data thread makes this out to be impossible. IASA on uair is listed as 39 and fair hit is 19 for a total of 58 while it says full jump is 56 frames. Also I'm curious if FJ uair fair could be moderate shield pressure since some characters have trouble getting a hit box behind them out of shield of you cross them up.

Yoshi gets extra air time because his ECB distorts during his F-air animation.

I'm a little confused about the proposed application of this. I quickly tested FJ U-air vs. shield and it doesn't seem to hit Sheik's shield, which happens to be big and belongs to a tall character. There's also about 40 frames in between hitboxes, which is plenty of time for the opponent to react and hit Yoshi with an OoS option.

 

[SwiggitySwo0ty]

Your right fellas, I never even considered his collision boxes being altered by his fair. As far as application there probably isn't any I was just up pretty late and my mind got ahead of me.

 

[Icyo]

What's everyone's thoughts on amsa's success in american tournaments? As a newer Yoshi player I'd like to think he'll always be able to retain his success as it's really inspirational...but I've seen a lot of people try to argue that it's due to inexperience in the matchup. Frequently they cite his loses against Japanese players because they have "more experience playing against him."

 

[Sashimi]

People who cite aMSa's losses in Japan are doing so because they saw that one tournament from a year ago and base everything they know about the Japanese scene on that. He got second at a very recent tournament and, to my knowledge, hasn't placed worse than top 4 in Japan since he went back there after KoC4.

Matchup inexperience was a legitimate reason two years ago when no one knew who he was. If people are unprepared now, it's their fault. You can say that aMSa's wins still don't count either way, but that doesn't explain why Fly Amanita and SFat have lost two sets in a row (both of whom claimed they wouldn't lose the second set after figuring out aMSa), why Lucky won his first two sets vs aMSa and then lost the one at Apex 2015 (and Lucky has real Yoshi experience from Lil Fumi and probably others), why Mew2King, who has played V3ctorman in the past and discussed the matchup with him, lost to aMSa, or why aMSa is doing better against Mango now than the first two times he played against him.

People say the same thing about Axe despite him being a top player for half a decade, so I expect the same will be true for aMSa. However I think it's silly to argue about now. All that matters is that there is a Yoshi who is placing extremely well in his own region and in the majors he attends, and whether or not you think Yoshi is a good character, his results are improving rather than getting worse. Matchup inexperience doesn't last two years.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Oh yeah I almost forgot I moved to phoenix. =)

Glad to see everyone is doing well. I have some reading to catch up on?

How is everyone

 

[DD151]

He got second at a very recent tournament and, to my knowledge, hasn't placed worse than top 4 in Japan since he went back there after KoC4.

He got 13th at Master Hand 4, although he got sent into loser's early and lost to Kou in loser's, who also defeated aMSa in grand finals at KSB2015.

Glad to see everyone is doing well. I have some reading to catch up on?

Yes, yes you do.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Hi everyone,

Who is going to CEO this year?

It's summer time, so I hope you are all practicing at least 1 hr. a day.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm pretty sure at every level of play, Yoshi will have some success from people not knowing the MU. I think he will also have a large penalty because he is so hard to play and just isn't as good as some high tier characters.

aMSa does significantly worse in Japan, since he consistently is at the top of American brackets, but loses to Japanese players who nobody really hears about, so some people will be skeptical. If people see that and take it as evidence that aMSa is a bad player, they're idiots and you can safely ignore them.

The same thing even happens to me, where I lose to people in my town who know the MU, but will consistently place better than them out of state, and will do better vs lots of people who don't know the MU.

 

[SwiggitySwo0ty]

Another Question
Do you get a parry-like effect when you shield as your momentum carries you off the stage or a platform. I have had my suspicions, then I saw Amsa do something that looked legit in the recent Masterhand GFs, but he didnt act out of it: https://youtu.be/pMaxPYM6zPM?t=3m20s
Watch as Kounotori Nairs Amsa as he leaves the left platform.

 

[Sashimi]

Yes, you can parry during that time. If you are buffering the shield from a waveland, you will not be able to jump out of the parry (but you're going to edge-cancel anyway so it doesn't matter).

 

[Kimimaru]

I haven't played Melee for nearly 2 months before the Foundry tournament yesterday and managed to place 7th out of 60, knocking 2 ranked players out of bracket. I've still been reading the discussions on these boards during those 2 months and found a lot of new useful information; thanks everyone! Let's keep up the great activity on these boards!

 

[PsyRex]

Yo, grats man! Maybe next time you can shoot for that number one spot :D

 

[DD151]

I haven't played Melee for nearly 2 months before the Foundry tournament yesterday and managed to place 7th out of 60, knocking 2 ranked players out of bracket. I've still been reading the discussions on these boards during those 2 months and found a lot of new useful information; thanks everyone! Let's keep up the great activity on these boards!

The more important thing is

Were you SMASHED

I was looking through showdowngg's YouTube channel and it's a shame that none of your sets were streamed.

 

[Kimimaru]

Haha, I didn't drink at all actually. Yeah, none of my sets were recorded or streamed since I got knocked into Loser's early on.

In the last set I won (against Alan), it came down to last stock, last game, 100%+ for each of us on PS. He was playing Peach and hit me out of my double jump with a tippered U-smash and went for another one to end it, but I reacted in time to use an aerial Yoshi Bomb and kill him off the top.

I think the best part about that set was my adaptation to his camping, which I'm usually terrible against. He would retreat, pull turnips, and throw them at me. I noticed that when I got within a certain range of him he would go for FC -> F-air to hit me away, so I baited those and punished.

 

[DD151]

Haha, I didn't drink at all actually. Yeah, none of my sets were recorded or streamed since I got knocked into Loser's early on.

Man, that's lame, I remember there was one set where one of the commentators says something like "I got bodied by this other Yoshi" and I'm thinking, okay that's Kimimaru, why isn't he on stream?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Ok, I'll see none of you at CEO then lol.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

Hey guys, some of us in the Yoshi Skype group did some analysis of aMSa vs. Leffen at Apex 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsdOPCaHkoo

There are some quality issues with the recording that should be a bit better when we analyze the second match of the set, but there it is for anyone that'd like to see it anyways

 

[Peanutphobia]

Hey guys, I played a doc player (Velocity) for the first time in tournament the other day with yoshi and lost pretty badly. He would keep approaching with pill->aerial. This really tripped me up, because when I parried the pill, I would just get hit with the aerial, resulting in a big punish. If I retreated when the pill came out, he would just throw another pill. When dealing with multi-hit approaches (ex. fox drill), I usually just dash dance bait it out, and punish when the approach whiffs; however, since the pills travel a pretty far distance and bounce low, I felt like I couldn't really do that. I don't really have a lot of experience in the doc MU so if anyone has any advice, I'd really appreciate it!

 

[Kimimaru]

Doc's pills can be a pain, but he has a lot of lag after throwing one so you'll want to position yourself in a way that allows you to punish his pills and stop him from throwing them. If you parry them early you have a big frame advantage. Yoshi can jump over pills when they're low and punish with reverse DJC F-air. Also IIRC, reverse N-air, dash attack, and maybe B-air can eat through pills.

Overall I think it's better to stay more airborne for this MU; maybe the reason I don't tend to have trouble vs Docs is because I full jump a lot. I feel this makes sense since Doc's grounded options are his strongest. He has grab, jab, D-smash, F-smash, and much more on the ground. Forcing him into the air limits his options, and allows you to juggle him with U-air, which he has few options against. Fake DJC -> Egg Lay can get him in the air and keep him on his toes.

Was the set recorded? I'd also like to know which stages you played on. FD isn't my favorite stage for this MU but it's not bad, and I think DL is the best since a solid D-smash will kill him low while he may have trouble killing you unless he gets a grab or F-smash. FoD is probably the worst stage for this MU since the platforms will always be altering his pill trajectory and make them harder to deal with.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

What angles can the pill be reflected at? While watching aMSa's stream last night, I saw something interesting he did with Mario's fireball. He reflected in a way that it would basically go right back at Mario, and then approached right behind it so that it would sort of protect him. Could Doc's pills be reflected and used in a similar way?

 

[Kimimaru]

By reflect I assume you mean powershielding.

You should be able to powershield it at any point, so I'd imagine you can do the same against Doc.

 

[Peanutphobia]

Doc's pills can be a pain, but he has a lot of lag after throwing one so you'll want to position yourself in a way that allows you to punish his pills and stop him from throwing them. If you parry them early you have a big frame advantage. Yoshi can jump over pills when they're low and punish with reverse DJC F-air. Also IIRC, reverse N-air, dash attack, and maybe B-air can eat through pills.

Overall I think it's better to stay more airborne for this MU; maybe the reason I don't tend to have trouble vs Docs is because I full jump a lot. I feel this makes sense since Doc's grounded options are his strongest. He has grab, jab, D-smash, F-smash, and much more on the ground. Forcing him into the air limits his options, and allows you to juggle him with U-air, which he has few options against. Fake DJC -> Egg Lay can get him in the air and keep him on his toes.

Was the set recorded? I'd also like to know which stages you played on. FD isn't my favorite stage for this MU but it's not bad, and I think DL is the best since a solid D-smash will kill him low while he may have trouble killing you unless he gets a grab or F-smash. FoD is probably the worst stage for this MU since the platforms will always be altering his pill trajectory and make them harder to deal with.

Thank you so much!! Lots of great ideas here that I'll use next time. I think I remember trying to stay grounded as much as possible, because I've found that usually works best when I'm caught off-guard. I guess that was the wrong mentality this time. And yes, the set actually was recorded; I'll reluctantly post it when it gets uploaded hah

 

[Purpletuce]

One thing to consider is that Doc will not always be in a position where he can approach with both a pill and an aerial, and usually he has to work to set up that approach. If you're just letting him have it, there is half of your problem. This sounds like it may be an issue with your stage control. If you're always in a situation where he can set up like that, you're getting zoned out too hard in the neutral game. Try defending your space more, and if he tries setting up with pills, you should ideally be in a situation where you can either be too close for him to properly approach, or fade back to his aerial comes up short.

As good as parrying is, it isn't something you can just sit there and do to beat any approach. You need to understand when to implement it, just like any other tool, and Incorporate it into your neutral game appropriately.

 

[Peanutphobia]

One thing to consider is that Doc will not always be in a position where he can approach with both a pill and an aerial, and usually he has to work to set up that approach. If you're just letting him have it, there is half of your problem. This sounds like it may be an issue with your stage control. If you're always in a situation where he can set up like that, you're getting zoned out too hard in the neutral game. Try defending your space more, and if he tries setting up with pills, you should ideally be in a situation where you can either be too close for him to properly approach, or fade back to his aerial comes up short.

As good as parrying is, it isn't something you can just sit there and do to beat any approach. You need to understand when to implement it, just like any other tool, and Incorporate it into your neutral game appropriately.

Yeah, I probably was giving up too much stage / didn't force him into tough positions at all. Thanks a ton for the tips!

 

[kofinater]

Yeah, I probably was giving up too much stage / didn't force him into tough positions at all. Thanks a ton for the tips!

I play with velocity a decent bit amount when i'm home from school. I like what kimumaru was saying and i'll try being a bit more air based next time i play him, but i have had a decent amount of succes staying on the ground, the thing is that you just need to stay in docs face while simultaneously staying out of his immediate threat zone. Well spaced d-tilts are difficult for doc to deal with.

 

[SNEAKY_URKEL]

When and how do you guys use double jump armor to punish aerials (the kind outside of recovery)? I've been trying to apply it in the Marth matchup especially, but am also figuring out how to use it against Fox.